Within the context of the story, Erwin is portrayed as a laudable hero and the controversy surrounding his actions is muted, but KingOfNight has some very interesting points. I wouldn't go so far as to call him a terrible leader personally, but Erwin's choices are certainly worth debating. Are his *risks* worthwhile, considering how little they know, or are they just desperate gambles paid in human lives (and remember the soldiers in this series aren't typically people who signed up because they wanted to)? At least Jean was willing to question Erwin's methods (while Armin was sold on the "risk something to get something" thing).
But on topic, I wonder what another commander like Nile Dawk would do with Recon?
He has experience in leading troops for the Scouting Legion. (This guy totally looks like him, in both anime and manga.) He knows the price of failure and the feeling that losing brings. He led Irwin when he was starting out and possibly knows him personally. He's got the personality. With Eren's titan form he may feel as if humanity has a fighting chance and will return to leading. He's no Commander Handsome, as what the fandom seems to call Irwin, Keith is more Commander Terrifying.
Super bonus reason for Keith to return to front line duty.
He knows Erens father. There's got to be a reason why it was pointed out that he and Grisha know each other and yet Eren doesn't know about Keith.
Very true! Actually Shardis' failures (chapter 1) are probably why he isn't leaping to mind, as we were just discussing him recently. Having had time to reflect (and to see what trainees are capable of), he may have improved however. So if Erwin was gone he could still certainly be a viable candidate. (The anime treated him as the same person, so I think most here are tentatively considering that to be the case.)
The lives that were lost, were lost in VAIN. When you take risks, you must do your damn best to raise the chances of success to at least 50%, AT LEAST. Otherwise, it's just suicide. Again, don't tell me he failed because of things impossible to predict. He refused to retreat faced with a new enemy that he has no clue about, OF COURSE there will be surprises. He engaged blindly in battle and the result was utter failure and the loss of fine soldiers. He failed as a leader. Eren blames himself for the death of those soldiers, but it was definitely Erwin's plan and fault. His plan to save Eren FAILED. Eren would've died without the "Coordinate" ability. He didn't know about this power. It was sheer luck.
Eren is key to humanity's survival. Any soldiers that die in the process are necessary if it means getting him back. Getting him back is worth sacrificing the whole Legion for. If Eren died those soldiers would have died anyway pretty soon. So regardless of the odds of success it is LOGICAL to send every soldier into it.
Erwin's plan to "capture" the Female Titan worked, so the troops wouldn't have died in vain if not for her unveiling a set of new powers. Without her abilities (which no one would have predicted) they would have won. Once Erwin knew she had other abilities to Eren he thought about what might happen. If Hanji or Levi was in charge she wouldn't have told Levi to get the troops back into formation and leave, Erwin adapted his way of thinking and Eren survived as a result. Even Hanji didn't think she might have escaped.
I would understand where you're coming from by saying he had to take a risk. But the problem is that it's not that he HAD to take risks, he CHOSE to take risks without any sort of guarantees
There are never guarantees in battle, if he only chose to go ahead when he was completely certain they would win humanity would never advance at all. He did a whole speech on why they failed and what they had to do after the Female Titan was eaten. To go back to your original point, the situation would not have been any better with another commander. He did HAVE to take risks, otherwise they would have no chance of success. He knew in his head they probably couldn't recover Eren, he still went in full force and as a result lost most his soldiers and an arm. But that is STILL better of than if he didn't risk it. Any good leader would opt a 1% chance of success over humanity's probable demise.
"blindly" would be inappropriate. He used the knowledge he had to full effect. He (and everyone else) were blind to what was gonna happen, but didn't know it. Hence why it would be same with anyone other than Erwin. In fact probably worse because his thinking is usually brilliant.
The main issue here is the nature of the war humanity is fighting. The enemy they are fighting is enormously powerful, so much that it could have wiped them out at any time during the past 100 years, they know absolutely nothing about them, they have extremely limited resources and realistically not even what could be considered a good fighting method (unless playing steam punk spiderman around 15 m tall almost immortal cannibals can be considered a good fighting method). By all intents and purposes this was not a war, humanity was already cattle within the walls. They were already doomed, they already had nothing they could achieve. It was all a simple waiting game until the titan overlords decided they had no further use for the cattle within the walls and destroyed the walls. There wasn't a war going on, that would imply that for the past 100 years humanity had a fighting chance. Remember the capture annie arc? A single titan shifter can be so powerful that the strongest member of the scouting legion deemed it impossible to win against it. A coordinate effort by the entire scouting legion failed even after so much planning because of a variable for which they could have never accounted for.
Ordinarily yes, a mission would be chosen and planned so that it has the highest possible chance of success and could be forfeited if the risk was deemed too high but in this particular world things are by no means ordinary. Humanity, irwin, got desperate. Because there was no knowledge, because there weren't effective fighting methods, because they had no chance of winning, because there wasn't a war. So with the realization that they had nothing they were left with only 2 possible courses of action. One would be to do nothing as no military action ever against the titans could be done without taking enormous risks. The alternative would be to jump at whatever crumb of information regardless of the risk because even a fraction of that crumb would imply they have something contrary to the nothing they had earlier. The 3d gear is a recklessly stupid combat method that kills even those who are mastering it and yet it is widely used by the military because the alternative is to not have a fighting method. Pixis sent a worn out eren to cover the whole and ordered the soldiers to do whatever it takes to protect him while doing the job because the alternative was to let titans have a significant portion of whatever scrap of territory humanity has left. The scouting legion targeted the female type because it was their first chance in history to actually learn about the titan overlords at whose whims they lived under. Realistically speaking the coherent decision would have been for humanity to put eren down for the risk he represented but the scouting legion saw in him someone that could fight titans in a way no one else could ever have (a rampaging mindless eren took on 20 titans while it usually takes several scouting legion soldiers to take out a single titan). The scouting legion chased after eren when reyner and berholt took him because he was the only actual asset that made a difference in the war, because eren alone was more important than several scouting legions combined. And right now all that finally paid off with eren being a coordinate. With eren being a coordinate humanity can not only put up a fight against the warriors beyond the walls but even fight on even ground. Right now humanity is no longer at the whims of the warriors for the first time in 100 years. And that is because they acted like the doomed little rodents they were and jumped straight into titan territory into anything that even appeared to be helpful.
Eren is key to humanity's survival. Any soldiers that die in the process are necessary if it means getting him back. Getting him back is worth sacrificing the whole Legion for. If Eren died those soldiers would have died anyway pretty soon. So regardless of the odds of success it is LOGICAL to send every soldier into it.
Erwin's plan to "capture" the Female Titan worked, so the troops wouldn't have died in vain if not for her unveiling a set of new powers. Without her abilities (which no one would have predicted) they would have won. Once Erwin knew she had other abilities to Eren he thought about what might happen. If Hanji or Levi was in charge she wouldn't have told Levi to get the troops back into formation and leave, Erwin adapted his way of thinking and Eren survived as a result. Even Hanji didn't think she might have escaped.
Yes, that I understand. But had Eren not awakened his "Coordinate" ability. He, and the entirety of the Survey Corps would probably die.
It's a new type of enemy, with new abilities some of which he witnessed for himself. She was bound to have some surprises with her. Normally, you would go for the kill against such a dangerous enemy or retreat. Even Eren stated that had they gone for the kill, they may actually CAPTURE her. Or they could have retreated, they at least knew she was after Eren and they could also make the hypothesis about who she was. He however, went straight for the most dangerous and idealistic option. "Okay, let's try to capture this new and completely unheard of Titan with strange abilities in the middle of a Titan-infested forest, what could possibly go wrong."
There are never guarantees in battle, if he only chose to go ahead when he was completely certain they would win humanity would never advance at all. He did a whole speech on why they failed and what they had to do after the Female Titan was eaten. To go back to your original point, the situation would not have been any better with another commander. He did HAVE to take risks, otherwise they would have no chance of success. He knew in his head they probably couldn't recover Eren, he still went in full force and as a result lost most his soldiers and an arm. But that is STILL better of than if he didn't risk it. Any good leader would opt a 1% chance of success over humanity's probable demise.
I didn't mean like guarantees of certain victory, I mean at least a guarantee that the lives he's about to throw won't go in 100% vain. He makes his move without any ray of hope and when he fails, all you can say is "Eh, what did you expect to happen." Unfortunately, throwing speeches seems to be his only strong suit. Okay, in case of trying to retrieve Eren from the Armored Titan, he could be excused. It was a shitty plan, but you could say "desperate times." The Female Titan's attack can't be excused though. And her capture plan in Stohness wasn't exactly awe inspiring.
"blindly" would be inappropriate. He used the knowledge he had to full effect. He (and everyone else) were blind to what was gonna happen, but didn't know it. Hence why it would be same with anyone other than Erwin. In fact probably worse because his thinking is usually brilliant.
He could not rush the hell out of things and use more knowledge for once. Can't say other leaders would've achieved anything note worthy, but at least they wouldn't come back with regretful corpses. It's not like he achieved anything worth noting by sending more souls to the afterlife.
I don't think at the time they could have made any sort of hypothesis as to who the female type could be. They just barely found out there were humans out there who could shift into titans a while back. Not to mention that the very clues that led the scouting legion to discover the female type's identity actually came from the mission to capture her. Without armin getting a close look at her and him hearing her say his name they would have never known anything. Unfortunately the only option to actually find out the capacities of the enemy is to engage them. Its not like they can go and gather intelligence on the enemy, they are at large far beyond the walls.
In the rescue eren from reyner part irwin did not really have a plan to be fair. They didn't have the time or resources to actually do that. Even getting the horses on the other side of the wall was already very complicated. They had 2 options, run behind eren like maniacs and hope for the best or simply not do it. Unfortunately giving up on eren was not a choice for humanity.
The only things that have ever been achieved in the manga have been achieved by recklessly and impulsively throwing lives at it though.Its not like irwin himself is doing a bad job... We are talking about a war in which humanity did not have a victory for over 100 years until eren closed the whole in the wall. And even that was just repelling an attack, its not like they actually got territory back. Think about it, 100 years of absolutely nothing against the titans. The best they ever did until eren was the 3d gear which is still not a particularly good fighting method. Its a miracle there even were humans out there with the will to fight, a century of failure is quite overwhelming.
I don't think at the time they could have made any sort of hypothesis as to who the female type could be. They just barely found out there were humans out there who could shift into titans a while back. Not to mention that the very clues that led the scouting legion to discover the female type's identity actually came from the mission to capture her. Without armin getting a close look at her and him hearing her say his name they would have never known anything. Unfortunately the only option to actually find out the capacities of the enemy is to engage them. Its not like they can go and gather intelligence on the enemy, they are at large far beyond the walls.
But that was NOT part of the capture mission. We're talking about the very first minutes of the Female Titan attack. Armin had already encountered her, saw her fight, and could very well make the hypothesis about who's inside. After he survived, he desperately awaited a retreat order but it never came because of Erwin's shitty planning.
In the rescue eren from reyner part irwin did not really have a plan to be fair. They didn't have the time or resources to actually do that. Even getting the horses on the other side of the wall was already very complicated. They had 2 options, run behind eren like maniacs and hope for the best or simply not do it. Unfortunately giving up on eren was not a choice for humanity.
True, true. I already said he can be excused here since he had no choice at all.
The only things that have ever been achieved in the manga have been achieved by recklessly and impulsively throwing lives at it though.Its not like irwin himself is doing a bad job... We are talking about a war in which humanity did not have a victory for over 100 years until eren closed the whole in the wall. And even that was just repelling an attack, its not like they actually got territory back. Think about it, 100 years of absolutely nothing against the titans. The best they ever did until eren was the 3d gear which is still not a particularly good fighting method. Its a miracle there even were humans out there with the will to fight, a century of failure is quite overwhelming.
I understand how depressing it is to have nothing but failure for 100 year, but it's not like humanity can do anything about it by killing themselves meaninglessly. They didn't get any territories back because they're a bunch of idiots. Look at the Survey Corps, all they do is run a few miles away from the walls, get slaughtered, and then come back for another try later. I was about to create a thread about the Survey Corps' purpose because their logic escapes me. Do they expect to just find a huge revelation about the Titan's just lying there while they're running around? What good would running around like a bunch of retards do? We saw what they did in their expedition (when Levi and Hangi were just killing Titans for no reason), needless to say, it's ridiculously pointless. Desperation is not an excuse for unbridled stupidity. You can argue that they need to do something to keep the fight with the Titans and try to discover a few things about them. But if they can't tell it's meaningless after decades of failure, then THAT IS INSANITY.
Albert Einstein's definition of Insanity:
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
---------- Post added at 02:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:38 AM ----------
Without Eren in the Survey Corps, I think he would be as good a leader as any. With Eren, I think it'll be a problem. I do admit that Erwin is extremely ambitious which is a good thing for a leader. Nile doesn't seem to be that ambitious if any at all. Even if he doesn't dissect Eren, I don't think he'll be able to use his Titan form for what it's worth. His honesty however, and compassion for his comrades and humanity are genuine, as seen when he told Moses' mom about how all the deaths in the Recon were unfortunately in vain.
I love Keith Shadis, he's awesome. Just seeing his personality is enough for me to say that he's gonna be the best leader they could ask for.
@KingOfNight
About the last paragraph with Nile Dawk...Actually, the one who told about Moses' mom that their deaths were in vain was none other than Keith Shadis. Yep. The instructor for the 104th squad. It wasn't Nile Dawk. XD
@NuPope
It's quite simple how Keith really just got to know Eren's father. Grisha's a doctor and probably the top doctor of the South of Wall Maria. And of course, Survey Corp soldiers would meet a lot of doctors due to casualties. What would you expect?
And I wouldn't go that far to reinstate him again. He was already kicked out of that job(or he resigned), and then they would want him to go back again? Considering that the last mission we had seen from him ended up in vain, I wouldn't really count on him as much. Hey, but what do I know? XD
But that was NOT part of the capture mission. We're talking about the very first minutes of the Female Titan attack. Armin had already encountered her, saw her fight, and could very well make the hypothesis about who's inside. After he survived, he desperately awaited a retreat order but it never came because of Erwin's shitty planning.
True, true. I already said he can be excused here since he had no choice at all.
I understand how depressing it is to have nothing but failure for 100 year, but it's not like humanity can do anything about it by killing themselves meaninglessly. They didn't get any territories back because they're a bunch of idiots. Look at the Survey Corps, all they do is run a few miles away from the walls, get slaughtered, and then come back for another try later. I was about to create a thread about the Survey Corps' purpose because their logic escapes me. Do they expect to just find a huge revelation about the Titan's just lying there while they're running around? What good would running around like a bunch of retards do? We saw what they did in their expedition (when Levi and Hangi were just killing Titans for no reason), needless to say, it's ridiculously pointless. Desperation is not an excuse for unbridled stupidity. You can argue that they need to do something to keep the fight with the Titans and try to discover a few things about them. But if they can't tell it's meaningless after decades of failure, then THAT IS INSANITY.
Albert Einstein's definition of Insanity:
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
---------- Post added at 02:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:38 AM ----------
Without Eren in the Survey Corps, I think he would be as good a leader as any. With Eren, I think it'll be a problem. I do admit that Erwin is extremely ambitious which is a good thing for a leader. Nile doesn't seem to be that ambitious if any at all. Even if he doesn't dissect Eren, I don't think he'll be able to use his Titan form for what it's worth. His honesty however, and compassion for his comrades and humanity are genuine, as seen when he told Moses' mom about how all the deaths in the Recon were unfortunately in vain.
I love Keith Shadis, he's awesome. Just seeing his personality is enough for me to say that he's gonna be the best leader they could ask for.
It wasn't a part of the mission but it is still a victory for them however small. They were all waiting for a retreat order however that was only because they were not let in on what was actually going on. Its not like they were in significant danger during most of the time they were waiting either, they were on top of the trees. Things were simply happening elsewhere during that time. Even if the mission failed, the scouting legion did return with a bit of useful information which is precisely their purpose.
Getting territories back? I think you are missing something here. Just look at the name "scouting legion", "survey corps".... They are not the conquering legion or anything of the sort. The scouting legion has no immediate ambition of getting a single square inch of territory back. They are the scouting legion because at some point humanity gathered and collectively decided they had not so much as a vague clue as to what could ever be done to regain a single millimeter of territory back. They are the scouting legion because they have not the resources, manpower or technology to even consider recovering territory beyond the walls. They are the scouting legion because at some point humanity looked at what they had to fight the titans with and they decided they had better odds of finding something useful outside the walls than inside. At least up until now not s single human military unit ever had even the vaguest intention of getting territory back. Besides, it has not been entirely pointless, there is a benefit for humanity to what the scouting legion has done even with all the sacrifices. Remember the second wall attack? It was the scouting legion that ended up finishing up the titans that remained inside the wall. While it has been costly, humanity does have a military unit capable of fighting titans to some extent at least. Imagine what their position would be if humanity didn't even have people like that. And of course the scouting legion is insane. If I recall even eren pointed that out when he joined them (and you know you are batshit crazy when eren points out your craziness). They have been recklessly and impulsively throwing lives at a problem hoping eventually something good will come out of it which is insane but they did not have saner alternatives. The only alternative to what they have done is essentially inaction, to remain passively behind the walls doing nothing. Just look a their technology, even if there is oil inside the walls they are still a full century behind any sort of technology that could allow them to fight titans (considering that cannons are not too effective even with their magical explosive shells I doubt even modern day tanks would be effective)....
You do realize that Eren is KEY to humanity's survival? The entire Survey corps is worth sacrificing to get him back. If he chose to retreat sure his men would have stayed alive, but soon later every man, woman, and child within the walls could be killed. In the situation, Erwin had NO CHOICE but to send everyone in a full force, even if only a 1% chance of success it's still better than retreating. Yes he knew probably hundreds of men would perish, but if he didn't those men would have died anyway along with everyone else.
Again, you don't seem to understand that the only way to get more knowledge is to engage them? He could have waited 5 years before trying to bait out the Titan and he wouldn't have been any wiser to her powers. Even if he KNEW the Female Titan had powers, there's NO WAY he could have guessed what. And Erwin's plan to capture the Female Titan WORKED. And those men wouldn't have died in vain if not for her unveiling new powers as I said. It's hardly shit planning if it WORKS. When judging a plan, judge it based on the KNOWLEDGE THEY HAVE WHEN MAKING IT. In which case Erwin's plan was genius. The only reason it went wrong was because of something that they had knowledge of. And based of the information Erwin had access to, his plan should have worked (as it did). As I said, it would have been the same with any other leader regardless of how much time they took to prepare.
Tell me, how could he possibly have formed a better plan with what he had? And how is it possible to prevent the chance soldiers dying in vain? If the mission fails, they will have died in "vain". If it succeeds they wont have. This is true in most battles. Without risking all those soldiers dying, they could not make any kind of plan to advance. You need to understand that soldier lives can be meaningless in a sense. If they go all out and die, the end result will be the same as if they don't try in the first place. The only logical thing to do is to continue fighting.
Also, you don't seem to understand what the Survey Corps do. If you payed attention to the narrator I believe they said that the RECON corps, do RECON (OMG). Levi and Hanji weren't just killing random Titans. The Legion was setting up refueling stations/bases outside the walls as part of a long plan to retake Maria. In order to do that they had to kill every Titan in the area of course. As well as study Titans in their natural environment. Heck, they may have done it if they didn't have to go back to the walls after the breach. Do you expect them to not try to reclaim Maria while people are starving inside? The Legion don't use the exact same plan every time either.
It wasn't a part of the mission but it is still a victory for them however small. They were all waiting for a retreat order however that was only because they were not let in on what was actually going on. Its not like they were in significant danger during most of the time they were waiting either, they were on top of the trees. Things were simply happening elsewhere during that time. Even if the mission failed, the scouting legion did return with a bit of useful information which is precisely their purpose.
Tell me then, what is this useful information they've obtained during her capture? What did they obtain from jailing her that they have not known since the first few minutes of her attack. What exactly did they gain from capturing her for a few minutes?
Getting territories back? I think you are missing something here. Just look at the name "scouting legion", "survey corps".... They are not the conquering legion or anything of the sort. The scouting legion has no immediate ambition of getting a single square inch of territory back. They are the scouting legion because at some point humanity gathered and collectively decided they had not so much as a vague clue as to what could ever be done to regain a single millimeter of territory back. They are the scouting legion because they have not the resources, manpower or technology to even consider recovering territory beyond the walls. They are the scouting legion because at some point humanity looked at what they had to fight the titans with and they decided they had better odds of finding something useful outside the walls than inside. At least up until now not s single human military unit ever had even the vaguest intention of getting territory back. Besides, it has not been entirely pointless, there is a benefit for humanity to what the scouting legion has done even with all the sacrifices. Remember the second wall attack? It was the scouting legion that ended up finishing up the titans that remained inside the wall. While it has been costly, humanity does have a military unit capable of fighting titans to some extent at least. Imagine what their position would be if humanity didn't even have people like that. And of course the scouting legion is insane. If I recall even eren pointed that out when he joined them (and you know you are batshit crazy when eren points out your craziness). They have been recklessly and impulsively throwing lives at a problem hoping eventually something good will come out of it which is insane but they did not have saner alternatives. The only alternative to what they have done is essentially inaction, to remain passively behind the walls doing nothing. Just look a their technology, even if there is oil inside the walls they are still a full century behind any sort of technology that could allow them to fight titans (considering that cannons are not too effective even with their magical explosive shells I doubt even modern day tanks would be effective)....
They managed to do neither. As far as I've seen in the show, they are supposed to obtain informations about Titans. But the Wiki for some reason states that they also are supposed to recover lost territories, not to mention that YOU begun talking about getting back lost territories. Also, the garrison with their cannons finished the Titan's that invaded Trost. Insanity is not an awesome trait. Doing something is better than doing nothing, but after doing it for decades and failing, might as well stop and think of something new to do. Another approach maybe, or whatever. Again, desperation doesn't justify stupidity.
You do realize that Eren is KEY to humanity's survival? The entire Survey corps is worth sacrificing to get him back. If he chose to retreat sure his men would have stayed alive, but soon later every man, woman, and child within the walls could be killed. In the situation, Erwin had NO CHOICE but to send everyone in a full force, even if only a 1% chance of success it's still better than retreating. Yes he knew probably hundreds of men would perish, but if he didn't those men would have died anyway along with everyone else.
Okay, in case of trying to retrieve Eren from the Armored Titan, he could be excused. It was a shitty plan, but you could say "desperate times." The Female Titan's attack can't be excused though. And her capture plan in Stohness wasn't exactly awe inspiring.
Again, you don't seem to understand that the only way to get more knowledge is to engage them? He could have waited 5 years before trying to bait out the Titan and he wouldn't have been any wiser to her powers. Even if he KNEW the Female Titan had powers, there's NO WAY he could have guessed what. And Erwin's plan to capture the Female Titan WORKED. And those men wouldn't have died in vain if not for her unveiling new powers as I said. It's hardly shit planning if it WORKS. When judging a plan, judge it based on the KNOWLEDGE THEY HAVE WHEN MAKING IT. In which case Erwin's plan was genius. The only reason it went wrong was because of something that they had knowledge of. And based of the information Erwin had access to, his plan should have worked (as it did). As I said, it would have been the same with any other leader regardless of how much time they took to prepare.
How many times will you have me repeat myself? It doesn't matter if she used something unpredictable, that's the point. Don't sacrifice people challenging someone you have no idea what they can do. His plan FAILED. It was stated that the plan failed. It doesn't matter if she pulled new abilities, it's his fault for engaging and attempting the most difficult scenario (capturing) against an enemy that he barely knows about. If he had retreated, he would've formed a better plan because Armin's group had knowledge on her. You don't seem to understand battle strategies at all. And if you think you can prove a point by randomly repeating wrong information, then quit it. Repeating wrong things doesn't make them right.
Tell me, how could he possibly have formed a better plan with what he had? And how is it possible to prevent the chance soldiers dying in vain? If the mission fails, they will have died in "vain". If it succeeds they wont have. This is true in most battles. Without risking all those soldiers dying, they could not make any kind of plan to advance. You need to understand that soldier lives can be meaningless in a sense. If they go all out and die, the end result will be the same as if they don't try in the first place. The only logical thing to do is to continue fighting.
Any plan, is a better plan. Retreat, talk to Armin, find out that she can harden her skin, intelligent, that she's possibly Annie, that she can call Titans. Armin figured all of that from the first minutes of their encounter. Then initiate a plan to capture Annie, but this time, with your strongest members alive. Or here's another one. A new enemy appeared, an extremely dangerous one, go for the goddamn kill instead of throwing lives based on an ignorant assumption that you can catch her in the middle of a Titan-infested forest. It's possible to prevent them dying in vain, by not rushing.
Also, you don't seem to understand what the Survey Corps do. If you payed attention to the narrator I believe they said that the RECON corps, do RECON (OMG). Levi and Hanji weren't just killing random Titans. The Legion was setting up refueling stations/bases outside the walls as part of a long plan to retake Maria. In order to do that they had to kill every Titan in the area of course. As well as study Titans in their natural environment. Heck, they may have done it if they didn't have to go back to the walls after the breach. Do you expect them to not try to reclaim Maria while people are starving inside? The Legion don't use the exact same plan every time either.
The results? How many areas did they recover in their decades? How did killing random Titans help? What did they discover? Nothing. No matter how awesome you make it sound, they were failing for decades and they were doing the exact same thing. Also, the plan to retake Maria, existed after the fall of Maria, no shit. Before that? Retarded running outside the walls for decades. Retrieving Wall Maria has nothing to do with the overall goal of the Survey Corps' very existence. Levi and Hanji were killing Titan's in a certain area to retrieve Maria? How will killing Titans in a TITAN INFESTED area stop more from coming? That's like trying to empty a spot in the ocean with a water bottle.
How many times will you have me repeat myself? It doesn't matter if she used something unpredictable, that's the point. Don't sacrifice people challenging someone you have no idea what they can do. His plan FAILED. It was stated that the plan failed. It doesn't matter if she pulled new abilities, it's his fault for engaging and attempting the most difficult scenario (capturing) against an enemy that he barely knows about. If he had retreated, he would've formed a better plan because Armin's group had knowledge on her. You don't seem to understand battle strategies at all. And if you think you can prove a point by randomly repeating wrong information, then quit it. Repeating wrong things doesn't make them right.
How are they supposed to form a plan based on something they cannot predict? "don't sacrifice people if you have no idea what they enemy can do". Erm, without sacrificing people they are never gonna learn what they can do. "staying inside the walls and no engaging until they know everything", seems like a sound plan except that they can't learn anything by staying in the walls.
You aren't listening to me. His PLAN was sound, it FAILED based of unexpected powers of the enemy. Therefore Erwin's actual plan was fine (based on the info they had access to, it works. Any plan would have failed in this situation). There was no way they could have known about her ability to call Titans. If Erwin knew that Armin believed to have her ID he would have called a retreat. Shame he had no idea Armin Alert existed (he is just another solider). You now expect him to somehow predict that a solider knew who she was. In fact, if he had called the retreat all those would died would have been in vain because nothing would have happened. He called a retreat as soon as he believed the mission to have failed. Yes he engaged an enemy he knows nothing about. That was the only way to potentially learn about them. He used what he had to work out as much as they could. There's no where to go other than to engage.
You need to reread that arc. They didn't know she could harden her skin or call Titans until AFTER CAPTURING HER. And didn't work that out, all he knew was that it was Annie. He had NO IDEA who Armin even was, let alone that a random soldier would know the ID of the enemy. It would be plot-induced-intelligence for his to know to speak to Armin.
He assumed they could capture her, and he was right. Going of what he had, they should have got her. Even if she had powers it's impossible to know what. If they had gone for the kill straight away they would have lost all their best fighters (Levi's squad died because they didn't know of her abilities remember? Levi succeeded because he didn't underestimate her). And they wouldn't have known of these abilities until (guess what) after capturing her! And BTW, Erwin can't turn around to his troops and say "Be prepared because the enemy may have random powers to use in a fight" and that change anything. Without knowing what they can do, they are just as blind. And as I have said countless times, there is no way they would of known of these abilities without actually going out there to fight. So your plan (going straight for the kill when she appeared in the forest) would have likely failed as well, and all the soldiers that died would have still died.
Retrieving Wall Maria has nothing to do with the overall goal of the Survey Corps' very existence. Levi and Hanji were killing Titan's in a certain area to retrieve Maria? How will killing Titans in a TITAN INFESTED area stop more from coming? That's like trying to empty a spot in the ocean with a water bottle.
The Survey Corps objective became reclaiming Maria after it's fall. They stated that. You realize right that killing Titans in a small area means you can work there for a short time? While Levi and Hanji are keeping them occupied, soldiers would have been preparing stations to make a base outside the walls. They weren't trying to make a scratch in the total Titan population! They were merely attempting to make that small town a station (once the corps have left, the Titans wont destroy anything they leave there). Once they have bases established throughout the area they could potentially retake the wall. And the mission looked to be going well (they were interrupted by the breach of Trost).
How are they supposed to form a plan based on something they cannot predict? "don't sacrifice people if you have no idea what they enemy can do". Erm, without sacrificing people they are never gonna learn what they can do. "staying inside the walls and no engaging until they know everything", seems like a sound plan except that they can't learn anything by staying in the walls.
You're missing the point. They already engaged the Female Titan, they learned a lot, had he retreated, he could use that lot for a better plan. It's that simple. Why capture her in middle of a Titan-infested area, without knowing what she's fully capable of? Engaging is something and trying to capture is something else. He knew it's a completely different type of Titan with different abilities, yet he used basic methods to capture her. They don't need to stay in the walls, they just need NOT to try and capture her without knowing what she can do.
You aren't listening to me. His PLAN was sound, it FAILED based of unexpected powers of the enemy. Therefore Erwin's actual plan was fine (based on the info they had access to, it works. Any plan would have failed in this situation). There was no way they could have known about her ability to call Titans. If Erwin knew that Armin believed to have her ID he would have called a retreat. Shame he had no idea Armin Alert existed (he is just another solider). You now expect him to somehow predict that a solider knew who she was. In fact, if he had called the retreat all those would died would have been in vain because nothing would have happened. He called a retreat as soon as he believed the mission to have failed. Yes he engaged an enemy he knows nothing about. That was the only way to potentially learn about them. He used what he had to work out as much as they could. There's no where to go other than to engage.
It failed because of the impossible to predict. Why risk so many lives based on an assumption? Again, don't tell me he had to do something because otherwise he wouldn't gain anything. He did something, something stupid, risked the Corps getting annihilated, and failed. Why? Because there wasn't a ray of hope to begin with, shocking! That's no different from suiciding. He knew that so many have engaged her, that they have collected some information about her, a retreat is the most logical thing to do. Those who died, died in vain anyway because nothing happened. It's just that more died. You keep forgetting that he chose the most difficult scenario when he could have chosen easier ones.
You need to reread that arc. They didn't know she could harden her skin or call Titans until AFTER CAPTURING HER. And didn't work that out, all he knew was that it was Annie. He had NO IDEA who Armin even was, let alone that a random soldier would know the ID of the enemy. It would be plot-induced-intelligence for his to know to speak to Armin.
They were passing information between each other. And going into battle with absolutely zero clues is even worse. Don't tell me he had to do something. He heard about how powerful she was, the most logical thing to do is to retreat, or at least, regroup.
He assumed they could capture her, and he was right. Going of what he had, they should have got her. Even if she had powers it's impossible to know what. If they had gone for the kill straight away they would have lost all their best fighters (Levi's squad died because they didn't know of her abilities remember? Levi succeeded because he didn't underestimate her). And they wouldn't have known of these abilities until (guess what) after capturing her! And BTW, Erwin can't turn around to his troops and say "Be prepared because the enemy may have random powers to use in a fight" and that change anything. Without knowing what they can do, they are just as blind. And as I have said countless times, there is no way they would of known of these abilities without actually going out there to fight. So your plan would have likely failed as well, and all the soldiers that died would have still died.
He ASSUMED he could. If they had gone for the kill, Levi, Mikasa and Eren would have been enough. Yes actually, he can say that. Why can't he? It's far better than treating her like an ordinary Titan when she's CLEARLY not. They already engaged her. All the info they had was from the small exchange between her and Armin's team. They learned nothing from capturing her. Even her ability to call out Titan's was already discovered by Armin. He just didn't bother to retreat, regroup or anything at all. He just went a tried to capture her.
The Survey Corps objective became reclaiming Maria after it's fall. They stated that. You realize right that killing Titans in a small area means you can work there for a short time? While Levi and Hanji are keeping them occupied, soldiers would have been preparing stations to make a base outside the walls. They weren't trying to make a scratch in the total Titan population! They were merely attempting to make that small town a station (once the corps have left, the Titans wont destroy anything they leave there). Once they have bases established throughout the area they could potentially retake the wall. And the mission looked to be going well (they were interrupted by the breach of Trost).
Well, I'm talking about the SC in general not the current one specifically. What could they establish in such a short time that Titan's can't bring down in seconds? You think they can just build things whenever they want? And what base could they build that will not be brought down in a minute? Even if the Titan's won't destroy it when they are not there, they will once they start using it. Not to mention that we've never seen them establish anything. Unless they build something on the three walls status, it's pointless.
kkck
Tell me then, what is this useful information they've obtained during her capture? What did they obtain from jailing her that they have not known since the first few minutes of her attack. What exactly did they gain from capturing her for a few minutes?
They managed to do neither. As far as I've seen in the show, they are supposed to obtain informations about Titans. But the Wiki for some reason states that they also are supposed to recover lost territories, not to mention that YOU begun talking about getting back lost territories. Also, the garrison with their cannons finished the Titan's that invaded Trost. Insanity is not an awesome trait. Doing something is better than doing nothing, but after doing it for decades and failing, might as well stop and think of something new to do. Another approach maybe, or whatever. Again, desperation doesn't justify stupidity.
So... they shouldn't have attempted to capture annie? I could understand if the question was what information they had gotten from their past decades worth of trips but I don't really see how not trying to capture annie makes a shred of sense. That was the one thing they necessarily had to do, it was the one thing they could do that did not have the risks. It was just bad fortune that annie happened to have an ability that would allow her to prevent spilling the beans. Which again was the result of them simply having virtually no intel on the enemy.
As far as territories go I only mentioned it in regards to getting back the bit that was initially lost to the second attack by the colossal titan. You are the one that said "They didn't get any territories back because they're a bunch of idiots" when the actual reason is them not having the means to do so and it not being their actual immediate purpose. What other approach would you suggest? And to be fair nowadays scouting legion trips are not nearly as bad as the one about capturing annie or recovering eren. The long range detection formation irwin developed did apparently work fairly well and it was only because annie herself broke it that things got particularly bad during the mission.
What exactly do you propose as alternatives to what they have been doing though?
So... they shouldn't have attempted to capture annie? I could understand if the question was what information they had gotten from their past decades worth of trips but I don't really see how not trying to capture annie makes a shred of sense. That was the one thing they necessarily had to do, it was the one thing they could do that did not have the risks. It was just bad fortune that annie happened to have an ability that would allow her to prevent spilling the beans. Which again was the result of them simply having virtually no intel on the enemy.
No need to rush. If they regrouped, they would know she's after Eren, know about her abilities, and a lot more. When you hear that a completely new type of Titan is out on the rampage slaughtering your army, you need to at least regroup or retreat. He did neither and jumped straight for the capture.
As far as territories go I only mentioned it in regards to getting back the bit that was initially lost to the second attack by the colossal titan. You are the one that said "They didn't get any territories back because they're a bunch of idiots" when the actual reason is them not having the means to do so and it not being their actual immediate purpose. What other approach would you suggest? And to be fair nowadays scouting legion trips are not nearly as bad as the one about capturing annie or recovering eren. The long range detection formation irwin developed did apparently work fairly well and it was only because annie herself broke it that things got particularly bad during the mission.
What exactly do you propose as alternatives to what they have been doing though?
It's because when you mentioned it I thought it really was part of their goal (since it was said so in Wiki). Anything. I can't for sure tell you what kind of approach to use, but it's not like repeating the same thing (running around) would do anything. Not when it failed for decades. I don't live in their world so I can't give a proper alternative, though definitely not repeat the same thing for decades.
You're missing the point. They already engaged the Female Titan, they learned a lot, had he retreated, he could use that lot for a better plan. It's that simple. Why capture her in middle of a Titan-infested area, without knowing what she's fully capable of? Engaging is something and trying to capture is something else. He knew it's a completely different type of Titan with different abilities, yet he used basic methods to capture her. They don't need to stay in the walls, they just need NOT to try and capture her without knowing what she can do.
No, they didn't learn anything of the Female Titan's abilities before the captured her. It was when she was trapped we first saw her harden skin and call Titans. So by your plan, all those soldiers dying would have been for nothing. And they developed the whole system just for the Female Titan, and it worked. Erwin HAD to assume she was like Eren's Titan. There is no other logical way to know what they could be capable of. Sure just watching her/gauging her strength before retreating and returning with a better tactic would be perfect. Shame she would have followed/grabbed Eren (who is what matters). There is realistically no way of knowing what she could do prior to the actual battle with her.
It failed because of the impossible to predict. Why risk so many lives based on an assumption? Again, don't tell me he had to do something because otherwise he wouldn't gain anything. He did something, something stupid, risked the Corps getting annihilated, and failed. Why? Because there wasn't a ray of hope to begin with, shocking! That's no different from suiciding. He knew that so many have engaged her, that they have collected some information about her, a retreat is the most logical thing to do. Those who died, died in vain anyway because nothing happened. It's just that more died. You keep forgetting that he chose the most difficult scenario when he could have chosen easier ones.
No he didn't. He knew she had got to Eren, presumably through many other soldiers. And you expect him to retreat right then? First of how when the Female Titan was chasing Eren. Secondly they would have gained nothing. All those soldiers would STILL have died in vain. They had NO information on her at that point before they captured/engaged her. Or at least Erwin didn't know they (Armin) did. As I said, no plan to gain information comes without the probability of many soldiers dying.
They were passing information between each other. And going into battle with absolutely zero clues is even worse. Don't tell me he had to do something. He heard about how powerful she was, the most logical thing to do is to retreat.
Again, HOW do they retreat at this point? They had no information on her, so retreating would have meant all those soldiers dying for nothing (you know the argument you keep putting forth?). And he didn't know how powerful she was until after they captured her. All he knew was she can get through the general soldiers.
He ASSUMED he could. If they had gone for the kill, Levi, Mikasa and Eren would have been enough. Yes actually, he can say that. Why can't he? It's far better than treating her like an ordinary Titan when she's CLEARLY not. They already engaged her. All the info the had was from the small exchange between her and Armin's team. They learned nothing from capturing her. Even her ability to call out Titan's was already discovered by Armin. He just didn't bother to retreat, regroup or anything at all. He just went a tried to capture her.
Mikasa and Levi's whole squad would have failed as would Eren (like they did). The only person who MIGHT have taken her down without knowing anything about her is Levi and maybe Mike. It was shown that without knowing what she is capable of they wouldn't win. That's why the Special Ops squad died, they didn't know of accelerated healing.
Her ability to call Titans had NOT been discovered by Armin. She attracted Titans is all, Eren does the same. No one knew she could call them all to frenzy. And accelerating healing and hardening skin would have given her the upper hand in a fight. And for the last time, HE HAD NO IDEA ARMIN HAD ANY INFORMATION, it would be impossible for him to decide what to do with a mission on the basis that he randomly though a single solider might have information. There was no direct relay between Armin and Erwin. So even if Armin did know everything about the Female Titan, how will Erwin know? If Armin went to Erwin and told him, maybe he would have altered the plan. But once again your idea revolves around Erwin having a time machine and somehow knowing Armin had crucial information. He can expect some soldiers to have seen her battle skills but not to that level. No one knew of her abilities until after the capture. In fact no one knows about her accelerated healing power still.
Well, I'm talking about the SC in general not the current one specifically. What could they establish in such a short time that Titan's can't bring down in seconds? You think they can just build things whenever they want? And what base could they build that will not be brought down in a minute? Even if the Titan's won't destroy it when they are not there, they will once they start using it. Not to mention that we've never seen them establish anything.
Titans don't destroy structures unless humans are inside. They are supposed to be establishing stations for relay/refueling. In a few years if they had enough of these dotted around they would come in useful for reclaiming the wall.
No need to rush. If they regrouped, they would know she's after Eren, know about her abilities, and a lot more. When you hear that a completely new type of Titan is out on the rampage slaughtering your army, you need to at least regroup or retreat. He did neither and jumped straight for the capture.
It's because when you mentioned it I thought it really was part of their goal (since it was said so in Wiki). Anything. I can't for sure tell you what kind of approach to use, but it's not like repeating the same thing (running around) would do anything. Not when it failed for decades. I don't live in their world so I can't give a proper alternative, though definitely not repeat the same thing for decades.
Are you talking about the mission to capture the female type beyond the walls or about the time they captured her inside the walls? I am a little lost here, I thought we were talking about when they tried to capture her inside the walls. As far as we know they did regroup, I mean, they had all the time to get back to the walls and the time irwin spent during trial had also gone by. I think it was also said annie had time to sleep for longer than normal periods of time too. They even removed civilians from the immediate area to whatever extent they could at the time. Then again they simply couldn't lead annie underground where her capture would have been a done deal. I do believe they could have come up with a better plan to lead her underground though. Something like assigning her to patrol the area or something, not a needlessly complicated plot to save eren....
I checked the wiki but it also talks about "eventual" recovery of territory rather than currently recover territory. Well, its true they have been unsuccessful at this for decades however I don't think the manga has actually shown us better alternatives. The debate we are having now is probably something that has happened plenty of times in the manga.
People: Sending people out to the titan's territory is batshit stupid!
Scouting legion: Batshit stupid compared to what?
People: Da fug is that supposed to mean?
SL: Well, we have no intel, manpower or technology to fight the titans and we are living like cattle within these walls. We go to titan territory in hopes of gathering at least useful intel about them. What would your approach to do this be? Do you have the means to gather any sort of intel within the walls? Do you have a new way to combat or spy on them?
People: Well, no.....
SL: Are you suggesting we stop doing the only thing we have ever come up with to at least try to do something in favor of doing absolutely nothing?
People: Everything sounds bad if you put it like that.... Are you suggesting with a straight face we keep wasting lives?
SL (with an improbably even straighter face than before): YES. Unless you have an alternative that yields results.
No, they didn't learn anything of the Female Titan's abilities before the captured her. It was when she was trapped we first saw her harden skin and call Titans. So by your plan, all those soldiers dying would have been for nothing. And they developed the whole system just for the Female Titan, and it worked. Erwin HAD to assume she was like Eren's Titan. There is no other logical way to know what they could be capable of. Sure just watching her/gauging her strength before retreating and returning with a better tactic would be perfect. Shame she would have followed/grabbed Eren (who is what matters). There is realistically no way of knowing what she could do prior to the actual battle with her.
Actually, they did. Armin saw that Sys' attack couldn't harm her. He told Jean and Reiner that she was likely the one who called the Titan's alongside the Colossal and Armored Titan. He got it all figured out. He just needed a regroup command or a retreat. Let her try to chase after Eren and grab him. She will get killed\captured by a combination the strongest SC members.
No he didn't. He knew she had got to Eren, presumably through many other soldiers. And you expect him to retreat right then? First of how when the Female Titan was chasing Eren. Secondly they would have gained nothing. All those soldiers would STILL have died in vain. They had NO information on her at that point before they captured/engaged her. Or at least Erwin didn't know they (Armin) did. As I said, no plan to gain information comes without the probability of many soldiers dying.
Do you know when a retreat\regroup order is given? When something goes off from the original plan. This time, a HUGE thing went off. And he did nothing. He just went with the flow. Yes, the ones that already died would've died in vain. But at least not more will follow in utter vain. True, the bold part is true. But there was no guarantee (not even a tiny one) that he would get anything. And he didn't. Levi squad died in vain.
Again, HOW do they retreat at this point? They had no information on her, so retreating would have meant all those soldiers dying for nothing (you know the argument you keep putting forth?). And he didn't know how powerful she was until after they captured her. All he knew was she can get through the general soldiers.
As I said above, something goes off, you call a retreat. The ones that died at first, didn't die because of him. An unexpected Titan appeared. The ones that died AFTER he refused to retreat, died in vain because of him. He may not know who Armin is, but he knows that dozens of soldiers fought her. Again, Armin knew how powerful she was. And Erwin must have knew something because he knew there was a human in there. Unless Armin's report reached him, he wouldn't have knew it was a Titan shifter.
Mikasa and Levi's whole squad would have failed as would Eren (like they did). The only person who MIGHT have taken her down without knowing anything about her is Levi and maybe Mike. It was shown that without knowing what she is capable of they wouldn't win. That's why the Special Ops squad died, they didn't know of accelerated healing.
Levi did defeat her. If they went for the kill, he would be there too. With Eren and Mikasa.
Her ability to call Titans had NOT been discovered by Armin. She attracted Titans is all, Eren does the same. No one knew she could call them all to frenzy. And accelerating healing and hardening skin would have given her the upper hand in a fight. And for the last time, HE HAD NO IDEA ARMIN HAD ANY INFORMATION, it would be impossible for him to decide what to do with a mission on the basis that he randomly though a single solider might have information. There was no direct relay between Armin and Erwin. So even if Armin did know everything about the Female Titan, how will Erwin know? If Armin went to Erwin and told him, maybe he would have altered the plan.
Armin knew that she somehow attracted tons of Titans. How he thought she did it doesn't matter, the effect is the same. And for the last time, RETREAT. Don't join battles randomly. Not when you have the lives of precious soldiers with you. If he had done the logical thing a leader would do when a plan goes off, and that's to retreat or regroup, he would have known better. Even if he didn't know of Armin, it would've been better to regroup instead of acting on his own. Again, why the rush? Why in such a hurry to die?
Titans don't destroy structures unless humans are inside. They are supposed to be establishing stations for relay/refueling. In a few years if they had enough of these dotted around they would come in useful for reclaiming the wall.
Even if the Titan's won't destroy it when they are not there, they will once they start using it. Not to mention that we've never seen them establish anything. Unless they build something on the three walls status, it's pointless.
The problem with retreating when they heard the damage done to the right flank is that the FT's accomplice already gave the info that Eren is in the center rear. If they retreated, she would just easily blaze through all of the Survey Corps soldiers until she could get to Eren. And it would be extremely difficult to defend Eren, even for the top fighters(Levi squad+Mike) simply because they're at a disadvantage(no buildings or trees to attach to).
Also, like epictoads said, Erwin doesn't know Armin up until after the Titan Forest arc. Remember that the information passed was that the right flank was completely destroyed. The immediate assumption based on that information is that there were no survivors who engaged Female Titan amongst them. And like Armin said, the commander had to decide: Retreat hoping that at least there were survivors in the right flank and could give them the identity of the FT, or try to capture her with ultimately both having almost zero chances of success. It's all but a gamble and he also had to decide on the spot. Though I actually think he decided based on what sounds cool. XD
But really, the problem is the first paragraph though.
@kkck
I think we're talking about the expedition...at least I hope we are.
Should there be a new thread created for this discussion? I mean I think we're derailing the thread. The question asked is who's the best candidate for commander of the Survey Corp, not how Erwin is a MF(be it bad or good).
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