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Shasha23

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I am not saying zahard and co can't be defeated. I am saying they can't be defeated by bam's friends in simple combat, that is an immensely important distinction.
You have been implying it for 2 pages now!

Errh, bam's friends are exceptional but the framing that their abilities are far beyond anything the tower has ever seen is wrong. Aguero has his ice spear, which is a rare quality, but is also shared by people of his lineage. Rak inherited powers which zahard tried to eliminate. Hatz is remarkable for being able to use swordsmanship as a regular this high up the tower but while uncommon it's not exactly far above anything the tower has ever seen. leesoo... is just smart and otherwise has nothing else going for him besides perhaps above average physical combat (average by regular standards). Basically, it's all been seen in the tower before. The only one among bam's companions who has a power that might fit into having powers above anything the tower has ever seen is androsi with her plausibly rare enough to be unique shinsoo quality.
Name 1 regular who can survive attacks from high rankers, regulars who face off against rankers like nothing, regulars who can wield items normal rankers cant even control, or regulars who can see the future perfectly. Violes nakama are exceptional

As for bam's companions being among the strongest regulars in the tower..... that's pretty damn unlikely. They are exceptional among regulars, sure, but to be among the strongest in the tower they'd have to be comparable to A ranks or the ranks immediate beneath rankers. And that is a bit of a stretch. Bam's friends are probably well above standard C ranks but nothing we have seen suggests they could hold a candle to whatever comes right before a ranker.
They are all C rank but do you think any C or B rank can even hold a candle to any of the?
Seriously now man
E rank Rak and AA easily fought a B rank level opponent and that was before they became this powerful, do you seriously think any B rank is any sort of match for them, never mind Alaine who is stronger than them

I am not refusing to accept that bam's friends are exceptional. I have pointed it out repeatedly. But if they were on their way to fight the FHs then they should be keeping up with bam. And they aren't.

Add to that, rak and aguero have been supporting bam in fighting rankers... but they only manage that because bam is there. Without bam being with them neither aguero or rak would be able to hold a candle to a ranker currently. Aguero in the hidden floor made the case that power was useless to him because it won't help him beat eduan..... He did change his mind about becoming stronger BUT he wasn't wrong about his potential to defeat eduan. When the group has fought rankers SIU consistently makes the point that the context is advantageous to aguero and rak....

NOT ALL FH ARE EQUAL, there are some who are strong and some who are weak, just cause you saw data Zahard and data Khun you think all of them were that strong.......ofcause not, and again i pointed ot that those data had already cleared the train while Aa and the others hadnt yet, and by the time they left their power was clearly much closer to those of data Zahard and data Eduan

You say it like they went keeping up, A and RAk were pretty casual fighting Delete, they went bothered by him at all, AA even beat advanced ranker Veti, he 90% of the work in that fight. We actually found out he was wrong when Eduan praised his ability and asked why he thought he couldnt beat him with that much talent.

It's absurd to think that bam's friends suddenly have a chance against family heads in the long run for something as insignificant as a cheat code to find what specifically is each one's shinsoo quality. Data eduan was able to trade punches with data zahard at the hidden floor... That's not something aguero then could have done. It's not something aguero or rak could do now.... Sure, they could pull a scratch on data zahard if he takes it as easy as he did on mascheny but that's hardly a relevant feat at the scale we are talking about now.
Simple question, who will beat the antagonist if you thing the main characters cant then?
 

kkck

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You have been implying it for 2 pages now!

Name 1 regular who can survive attacks from high rankers, regulars who face off against rankers like nothing, regulars who can wield items normal rankers cant even control, or regulars who can see the future perfectly. Violes nakama are exceptional

They are all C rank but do you think any C or B rank can even hold a candle to any of the?
Seriously now man
E rank Rak and AA easily fought a B rank level opponent and that was before they became this powerful, do you seriously think any B rank is any sort of match for them, never mind Alaine who is stronger than them


NOT ALL FH ARE EQUAL, there are some who are strong and some who are weak, just cause you saw data Zahard and data Khun you think all of them were that strong.......ofcause not, and again i pointed ot that those data had already cleared the train while Aa and the others hadnt yet, and by the time they left their power was clearly much closer to those of data Zahard and data Eduan

You say it like they went keeping up, A and RAk were pretty casual fighting Delete, they went bothered by him at all, AA even beat advanced ranker Veti, he 90% of the work in that fight. We actually found out he was wrong when Eduan praised his ability and asked why he thought he couldnt beat him with that much talent.

Simple question, who will beat the antagonist if you thing the main characters cant then?
Absolutely not, I have been talking about this within the context of bam's friends and perhaps other normal tower residents.

None of bam's friends can do that though. SIU is extremely clear that bam's friends have had some success against rankers because circumstances are extremely favorable to them along with bam's help.

There is literally no reason for us to think bam's team mates vastly surpass people of ranks above their own in general. You are speaking of bam's friends as if they were already near ranker level when SIU doesn't even concede to bam that tier. If you've noticed there are something like 80 floors left to climb while at the same time there are probably just two classes left... B and then A. We don't know when the C class ends but even if there is an S class for instance the next classes are far wider than the ones we have seen so far.

Sure, the family heads are not all equal BUT they are all absolutely supremely skilled monsters who pretty much invented the tower's combat system and whose actual cap is unknown to us. To them slayers and squadron commanders are barely useful bugs who are a whim away from being squashed. Can't believe that a page or two ago people were telling me bam's friends reaching squadron commander level within a few thousand years is too much and now I am having discussion about them reaching FH level within a few decades...

Yeah, aguero and rak were pretty casual against delete. But that worked because bam was with them and delete constantly underestimated them. The scenario was insanely favorable for bam and co and things could have gone substantially different for them if detele hadn't underestimated them.

Er, bam will beat the antagonist while his friends support him. It just won't be bam's friends who solo family heads. Also, you are treating this as if every single family head has to end up dead by bam or his friend's hand in solo combat by the end of the story. You do know that's simply not the case right? SIU has a lot of ways to play this. Bam has made an enemy of zahard by now but he isn't exactly out to get every family head. And in that note, not all family heads are necessarily loyal to zahard or enemies to bam. The story isn't nearly as restricted as you think it is in this sense.
 
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Shasha23

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Er, bam will beat the antagonist while his friends support him.
You finally get it, THANK THE MAKER..

Viole vs Zahard and their supports/underlings duke it out
team Viole(AA and the rest vs FH)

You finally see the light :hi
 

kkck

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You finally get it, THANK THE MAKER..

Viole vs Zahard and their supports/underlings duke it out
team Viole(AA and the rest vs FH)

You finally see the light :hi
But I never not said that. I was simply saying bam's friends won't be able to fight family heads one on one. I made the point that aguero could outsmart a family head for instance. But otherwise a family head sneezes in his general direction and aguero ends up reduced to atoms spread across the cosmos.
 

Shasha23

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But I never not said that. I was simply saying bam's friends won't be able to fight family heads one on one. I made the point that aguero could outsmart a family head for instance. But otherwise a family head sneezes in his general direction and aguero ends up reduced to atoms spread across the cosmos.
SO your still saying Viole will lose the war against Zahard then because FH are unbeatable
 

kkck

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SO your still saying Viole will lose the war against Zahard then because FH are unbeatable
Ok, now you are just straight up trolling...
 

Shasha23

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Ok, now you are just straight up trolling...
DUde your the one who is insistent that the main cast cant beat FH, even though we all know it will happen, so who is trolling here
 

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Ok, now you are just straight up trolling...
Lol you are wasting your time, I wonder that you haven’t realized that he is practically the only one who thinks that.
Siu will not even make baam friends assist him if he ever fight a FH.
Taking delete as an example is bs, he is a no name ranker, when baam fought kaiser , koon was relegated to the side bitch role, At the LS they were facing regulars.
I’am not even sure if AA is stronger that snake dude.
 

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I really don't understand the meaning of using other characters to create a parameter among the regulars. It was more than clear that each regular scale in a different way, it is not because Maschenny regular rank-D is stronger than Androssi regular rank-D that both being rankers this will remain the same. Kallavan vs Ha Jinsung should be a good example of this.

First, all the regulars on the Baam side have an above average talent, if we exclude the Wangnan team, they are all elite regulars who have made a name for themselves in their respective categories. We have members of the 10 families, Zahard princesses, talented people without genetic affiliation and so on.

On top of that, Baam's friends appeared to manipulate Shinsoo still in D-rank and in a way that not even many of the current rankers can. From what we have seen in every climb up to now, the members of the 10 families have an advantage because they already have contracts derived from their families and start to climb the tower already manipulating Shinsoo, and we have already seen that at least until rank-C the regulars fight using weapons and strengthening of Shinsoo, wave controllers are still minorities.

Finally, we have already been told that there are hidden and unexplored areas in the tower, it would not be absurd to find other entities such as the essence of courage, on Baam's side we currently have several genesis rankers who could train regulars and the Workshop could make items for them. The limit is the creativity of the SIU.

However, answering about the characters mentioned at the beginning of the post, I would say the following, based on what we have so far of their potential and powers:

Androssi, AA, Anak, Ran, Rak, Kaiser, Yihwa and Hatsu: They will probably become High-Rankers quickly, they are the strongest or the most talented among the Baam teammates.

Androssi: As far as we know, she has no genetic relationship with the 10 families, she became a Princess Zahard simply because of her talent, after the hell train she has evolved a lot, we don't know how much Yuri taught her and she even learned to manipulate Shinsoo, given her speed of growth, I wouldn't be surprised if she was able to repeat Adori's feat, defeating a ranker when she is a regular Rank-A. BTW, as a fanboy I think of her as the princess who will reunite at 13 months, although the scales lean more towards Yuri.

AA: To this day, I don't think we've seen his full potential so far, of course, his intellect is his greatest weapon, but we know that, given his personality, he hides many things, his Shinsoo is rare even among his family members, his talent was praised by Eduan, his spear skills by Evan and his skills as a light bearer surprised EVK, Hwa Ryun already calls him "Lieutenant of Baam" how much does this have to do with Koon's fate? depends on the opinion of each one.

Ran: He is a DD quite blessed with the genetics of his clan, he was able to find out about shinsoo tension alone, he will surely be a renowned High-Ranker and perhaps a day comparable to Maschenny.

Anak: Her physical abilities are absurd, she can handle 4 Baangs (being that at the time Baam, being the strongest regular I could only use 5), I see her as a high level HR as renowned as a DD of the 10 families.

Rak: It has been said that the natives were absurdly strong, he breaking his seal, dominating his elemental power, with his physical power and his resistance to Shinsoo and given what we know about the hereditary system of ToG, he has more than potential to overcome EVK and Khel Hellam.

Kaiser: She has a greater talent than many LPB DDs, has a rare shinheuh trained her skills for many years, her potential as HR is high.

Hatsu: He is skilled enough to even use a sword so far and still manages to physically accompany the members of the 10 families and given that the SIU is configuring his relationship with White, I would not be surprised that he ended up becoming his disciple and in the future become a ranker that sword skills are as famous as an Arie's.

Yihwa: It has already been said that she has enormous potential, superior to Ran, with the right training she can become the Yuri of the Yeon family in the future.

Irure, Laure, Hocknney and Lesoo: We do not know much of the real skills of the first two and the last two do not show much, perhaps the members of the Eurasian family fit in the previous group, because whenever they appear to be very skilled, Lesoo has more strategic skills and we haven't seen the full potential of Hocknney's eyes.

Novick and Varagrav are likely to become advanced rankers quickly. Varagrav was powerful in the E-rank because of his invisible dogs, I don't see him as someone incredibly strong, oh unless his transformation, just awakened, changes that.

Aka, Daniel, the other Mad Dog, Yura Ha and the boring brothers of the demonic arm: they can throw it away, nobody cares about them. Ah, although SIU could let Beta steal their demon, it would be much more useful.

White will reach its peak again and maybe even surpass it this time, your majesty is incredible after all. Yuri and Karaka are the ones who will reach the pinnacle of their respective classes, she as a princess and he as a Slayer.

Finally, regarding Baam friend's vs FH, oh unless they also get special contracts, or outside powers, I don't see them defeating any of the 10 leaders. Immortality is not a problem here, but Shinwonryuu is. Perhaps AA defeats Eduan using his intellect, but I strongly doubt it. I don't believe White is capable of beating Arie Hon, but I don't think it's impossible.
 
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hblock

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As someone pointed, in most Shonen manga, MC's friends barely ever reached a power that's comparable to the MC at the end of the story (be it Naruto, Bleach, etc) and ToG as it is right now is no different.

The only CC level being we saw as a regular until now is Maschenny (yet, it's even debatable whether she is CC level now or just barely) and the power she displayed in the HF was simply leeps and bounds stronger than anything else shown by any of Baam's friends.
The girl just managed to scratch Data Jahad's mask, maybe he was underestimating her and not really on guard, but she still did it and forced him to admit she is a worthy foe (since he used Lecalicus).
Furhtermore, compared to Mas', even after going through a complete revolution and learning his Shinsu quality, Orb-Shinwonryuu fusion, etc, Baam only managed to repeat a comparable feat (scratching Jahad's mask) after unleashing his black Shinsu.
Sorry to say but Mas's power back then was crazily powerful, far beyong the realm of all Baam's friends put toguether (Endorsi included), not only she was considered worthy by Jahad, she even smashed foes that were so difficult to handle for Baam's friends (champion villans, even the Big Breeder, etc) in a single shot as if they were common fodders.

Yet, among the regulars shown in the HF (irregulars not taken into account), only her "barely" became CC level after a few thousands years. So, for those who claim that Endorsi, Elaine, and so on already showed the same potential "just because they learned their quality", that's simply ridiculous. The best they'd become based on their current showings is division commander level and even that is debatable.

THAT BEING SAID, in most Shonen mangas, a lot of strange things happen nearing the end, OP items, places, asspulls start to appear one after another, so maybe if ToG takes the same pattern, they'll become relevant powerwise, but as it is right now, they're completly outclassed.
 

shaheer

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Furhtermore, compared to Mas', even after going through a complete revolution and learning his Shinsu quality, Orb-Shinwonryuu fusion, etc, Baam only managed to repeat a comparable feat (scratching Jahad's mask) after unleashing his black Shinsu.
WHAT? Zahard was BLOWN away after Bam unleashed his shinso and Zahard didnt actively try to crush machenny he was trying not to do soor do so in a manner where he wont be serious. With Bam that wasnt the case. Zahard was pushed till he had to release his weapons 2 nd form to over power Bam.
Bam would have mincemeated Machenny after training. Machenny couldnt budge zahard an inch.
With regards to Machenny s achievements I would agree to an extent but i think SIU did try to show the others improved quite a lot similar to what the Koon childern under Eudan had. I mean Koon went and beat someone at the end and i remember his position was sth that the group had difficulty handling.
 

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Zahard didnt actively try to crush machenny
The same goes for Baam.

where he wont be serious
The same goes for Baam, Jahad gradually raised his power proportionnaly to Baam's power output.

Zahard was BLOWN away after Bam unleashed his shinso and Zahard
(post Edahn training) Baam without black Shinsu < Mas' < Baam with Black Shinsu. Mas' outperforming Baam without Black Shinsu is still a crazy feat which would put her far ahead of the others put toguether.

With regards to Machenny s achievements I would agree to an extent but i think SIU did try to show the others improved quite a lot similar to what the Koon childern under Eudan had
I agree but Khun's children themselves were still leeps and bounds below Mas' without Redan, so even with that taken into account, the best they can achieve is DC level, CC is out of their league as they're right now.
 

shaheer

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The same goes for Baam, Jahad gradually raised his power proportionnaly to Baam's power output.
Techically same goes for Bam. Both gradually showed their cards, they didnt just jump out to end in one move. They moved from sparring to fighting to actively trying to kill each other to Zahard admitting defeat.
In Machennys case Zahard was toying. In the end machenny just scratched zahards face mask. Zahard just stood there and she overburdened herself so much that basically she imploded.
 
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hblock

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Techically same goes for Bam too both gradually showed their cards they didnt just jump out to end in one move they moved from sparring to fighting to actively trying to kill each other to Zahard admitting defeat.
In Machennys case Zahard was toying.
I'm not saying Mas' was literally stronger than Baam, she was just stronger than him without the black Shinsu.
 

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Honestly I think most of Baam's friends would be Advanced rankers.

High rankers would be:

Androssi: For her strength and unique shinoo quality.
A.A: For his status as FH. He wouldn't attain this position from killing his father, but rather winning some kind of test.
Rak: Pretty much just because he's an ancient descendent and has an ancient spear.
Yiwha: Possible head of her family / adviser. Maybe even wife of the king.
Wangnan: New king of the tower. A king is necessary for the regular system to exist.


I can't imagine a single 1 of Baam's friends ever beating a family head in a 1 on 1 fight. Or all on 1 (without Baam) to be honest. People seem to be forgetting one of the basic premises of ToG and that is test taking. It's how you advance. And it's pretty much the only reason Baam and co are still alive. I expect despite the fact that all out war is on the horizon, large battles will be won using the test system.
 
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Siya101

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The story needs to end, every shounen main cast reaches their peak strength faster than anyone before them, SIU cant make any major time skips because the war has already begun, Zahard wont just call FUG and say "hey you know what ill give you a few hundred years to grow enough to beat me", they will surpass the FH in less than 25 years and challenge the higher floors.

P.S Viole reached floor 52 in +-10 years, no way has he been in tower for more than 11

You have a point because at this point baams success at this campaign to save jinsung would him a high class threat to the jahad family and i think thats when fug will make an effort to make sure baam and his companions climb the tower much faster since as you said jahad wont wait for them to grow and thats when fug will decide to either change baams team which baam will obviously not allow or make sure that baams companions are competent to climb with baam. Look closely and you'll see that baams friends who are not strong enough are fighting with baam at the front lines (isu, hatsu, aguero, rak)...isu and hatsu are not even on the main team but are on the other team.

The catalyst to making baams weaks companions stronger are the masters from fug which trained the hidden grove team...i am super convinced that it will play out that way
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Also as far as koon goes he hasnt actually been in an actual fight rather we havent seen him fight and siu said said aa will go through a revolution when it comes to his combat prowess...cant wait ngl
 

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@sazon Lineage is important, but I do not think that being the kid of two Irregulars necessarily make you better. Enne is very strong but we don't know if she is stronger than the likes of Adori, Baek or other "Regular top High Rankers". What we know is that she is at least top 2 in term of strength among the Zahard Princesses.

Yuri has been said to be the most talented in the Cheonhee flashback and we know she is the family's favorite too, not any of the twins. If these twins were so fabulous I don't think Yuri would be the overwhelming favorite like that.
 

sazon

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@sazon Lineage is important, but I do not think that being the kid of two Irregulars necessarily make you better. Enne is very strong but we don't know if she is stronger than the likes of Adori, Baek or other "Regular top High Rankers". What we know is that she is at least top 2 in term of strength among the Zahard Princesses.

Yuri has been said to be the most talented in the Cheonhee flashback and we know she is the family's favorite too, not any of the twins. If these twins were so fabulous I don't think Yuri would be the overwhelming favorite like that.
I agree in parts, in fact, it is not possible to say who is stronger between Enne and Adori, but a lineage determines a lot its strength. We saw that from the beginning, members of 10 families were always above the other inhabitants, especially DDs. People like kaiser, who has more talent than many DDs are rare and cases like Androssi, Adori (probably) and Hatsu are even rarer. If a DD of an irregular is already something big, imagine 2? Perhaps Enne are stronger than Adori and Baek, who knows that some of the FH are not superior to the ranking, but I didn’t believe much in the latter, it is possible, despite that, the same time may not be, do not have enough information to that. However, given her lineage, the data mentioned by Garam and her status, we can conclude that she is at the top of the tower.

About Yuri, in the matter of favorite it is very simple, she is a princess Zahard who became a carrier of 13 months and is rising quickly, so it is normal for her to be favorite, the Ha twins have been there since before the genesis, since they were them that they practically set up the Ha family and as Yurin doesn’t get involved, they are the leaders, so I don’t see the issue of favoritism as an argument. I went to the chapter you mentioned and in fact you have a line like this, but can we say based only on the line of a random person? The very question of Yuri being favored within your family can lead to comments like that, but I find it very vague to state something based on a comment from a random servant.
 

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Well, in my opinion the season 3 (at max. half of season 4) will be the last that we will have major impact from the previous team.
Most of the characters are weak at this point, and can't keep up with Bam growth speed and probably will be supporting characters like team that helps Bam in tests since he needs regulars.

My list:
  • The 25th Bam: obviously first place...​
  • Rachel: in any case by standing at the end at Bam's side or in front of him she has a lot of potential, I see here getting some serious upgrades not only as Light Bearer (probably Emily will help in the future)​
  • Yuri Ha Jahad: she is young and is already a HR, with some serious training (since there is time, we are still at 50 floor) at the end she can be at the level of Adori Zahard (probably this will not be the case, but we are talking about potential)​
  • Khun Aguero Agnes: SIU has started his upgrade with the flame and he is a crucial part of the plot, with a Opera Lighthouse he can be pretty strong HR level Light Bearer​
  • Karaka: is already a HR probably near the level of YHJ, I'm not sure if he get the power from the armor, but I see him until the end, probably with some training can be at an army corp level​
  • Rak Wraithraiser: I see him as one of the most strong standing characters at the end, in terms of strength (not combat that require technique, intelligence, etc..) he is a descendant of the Native One bay-standing in Bam's side he will learn the root of his power and how to master it​
  • Yeon Yihwa: I'm not sure... , it is mentioned that she has a lot of potential, but since Bam will need some early companions, she has the most of potentials from the second team, probably (I doubt) at the end will be a HR if she will learn to control here self​
  • White: lol, I think at some point he will be literally devoured from Bam before reaching the top levels of the tower, as potential yes he can devour everyone right... or not Bam probably no, since his power from the souls has magic at the basic and magic does not work on Bam, I think he is near the peak now, at max with a lot of HR devoured potentially on top 10 HR​
  • Endorsi Jahad: maybe an advanced ranker​
 
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If siu will use some deus ex mahina magic and bust Baams courts members strengthens it won’t change anything even after 5000 years. FH’s are irregulars. To understand what it is I will give an exaple. Lets taki 2 boxers, one can fight 12 rounds and can punch with thse strenght of 500 kg, but other one could punch with the strength of 350 kg, but he can fight endlessly without exhaustion. Yet to remind you, majority of non irregular top 20 HR’s are Zahard princesses and irregulars descendants. The only one of Baams court member who can potentially reach Mischenny level of strenght is Yeon but for it she needs Zah blood and 5000 years. Considering the speed of Baams climbing, his friends as max will be in top 500. TOG is now a story about Baam solo leveling the tower. To change that in favor of his teammates you need to break towers rules.
 
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