Technique Internal Quality Shinsoo Control

[kkck]

I don't remember if you guys remember. During the floor 20 test one of the test was a game to test everyones internal shinsu. Baam used piercing butterfly so I'm guessing and type of punch could be called internal shinsu. I think the meaning of internal shinsu is much bigger than body hardening. Baam can easily take powerful shinsu attacks but physical attacks are his weakness. I could say the reason Baam can't tank attacks is because his body hardning is piss poor but his speed and power are crazy high. Baam does have amazing defense from lack of his body as we saw from the Data Zahard fight.

My point being internalizing shinsu is different for everyone and it's not just body hardning but all around. One could still have a powerful punch but a weaker body.

I think that is a technique which uses shinsoo inside stuff to wreck it. That's a fundamentally different technique and topic from internal quality shinsoo control.

Bam's shinsoo reinforcement is probably good, but not as good as for someone who has that as shinsoo attributes (and ha or miseng). In more recent fights he has even begun relying more on his blue oar for movement, probably because he wouldn't be able to keep up without it. This way he relies on his shinsoo control for movement rather than on his weak body and probably just good reinforcement.

 

[DERRICK S NIBLACK]

I think that is a technique which uses shinsoo inside stuff to wreck it. That's a fundamentally different technique and topic from internal quality shinsoo control.

Bam's shinsoo reinforcement is probably good, but not as good as for someone who has that as shinsoo attributes (and ha or miseng). In more recent fights he has even begun relying more on his blue oar for movement, probably because he wouldn't be able to keep up without it. This way he relies on his shinsoo control for movement rather than on his weak body and probably just good reinforcement.

Baam doesn't have a weak body, his body is really quite sturdy. Baam currently has 2 forms, unlike any other irregulars, his normal state and "his power" Zahard and the 13 warriors didn't gain the kinda power Baam has, they stay at full power and instead the reduce or increase their power. Baam isn't the same way he activates his power its like a switch. So his body isn't use to using that power and his body can only handle but so much. The funny part is if he kept his power on at all times he'd be much more powerful.

His body wise Baam has a body 2x or 5x stronger than Rans but when he internalizes "His power" its 10xs stronger than a zahard princess of his level because Baam could take Zahards 2nd stage needle at point blank range and still fight. Just to remind you even Maschenny needed help blocking Zahards needle qttack from the 1st form and she still was bloodied and pushed to the limit.

 

[kkck]

Baam doesn't have a weak body, his body is really quite sturdy. Baam currently has 2 forms, unlike any other irregulars, his normal state and "his power" Zahard and the 13 warriors didn't gain the kinda power Baam has, they stay at full power and instead the reduce or increase their power. Baam isn't the same way he activates his power its like a switch. So his body isn't use to using that power and his body can only handle but so much. The funny part is if he kept his power on at all times he'd be much more powerful.

His body wise Baam has a body 2x or 5x stronger than Rans but when he internalizes "His power" its 10xs stronger than a zahard princess of his level because Baam could take Zahards 2nd stage needle at point blank range and still fight. Just to remind you even Maschenny needed help blocking Zahards needle qttack from the 1st form and she still was bloodied and pushed to the limit.

The stuff you are saying in regards to bam's body is irrelevant to the point I am making regarding bam's physical strength. And also vastly overestimates bam's physical capacity even under the best of circumstances.

"Physical strength" is an stat so to speak that is completely independent from shinsoo reinforcement, thorns, shinsoo boosts or any shinsoo techniques whatsoever. It refers to your bare unboosted body. If you are using any manner of shinsoo whatsoever then its not longer pure physical strength, its "physical strength plus "insert shinsoo technique".

In that sense, bam's body is simply not strong. It is laughably weak by even regular standards, let alone princesses who even as mere regulars can be physically stronger than rankers. This has been stated repeatedly over the entirety of the series.

People with strong bodies in this series are essentially superhuman without any shinsoo at all. As in, they can benchpress a mountain with one hand. And where it gets ridiculous is when these people use shinsoo reinforcement on top of that ridiculous innate strength. That's why Ha are so dangerous, they have notably strong bodies among the ten families and on top of that reinforcement shinsoo qualities. Zahard gets to build the bulk of his combat around strength because his body is immensely stronger than that of a ha and he complements that with the fact that he also excels at every other aspect of shinsoo combat. And his needle was the perfect weapon for him because it allowed him to combine his physical strength and shinsoo control into one thing.

As for your examples of bam taking zahard's attacks... I'd go as far as saying that they don't evidence what you are suggesting at all. Whenever things went south for bam during that fight and zaahrd got close and landed a physical hit on bam's -reinforced- body, bam basically ended on the other side of the field covered in his own blood. The only times bam succesfully defended against zahard's attacks was when he used some manner of shinsoo technique for added protection. Like when bam scattered his orb or used it to cover himself. But none of those cases evidence physical might.

Bam having a body anywhere near as strong as even the physically weakest princess is ridiculous.

 

[Ripcord]

The stuff you are saying in regards to bam's body is irrelevant to the point I am making regarding bam's physical strength. And also vastly overestimates bam's physical capacity even under the best of circumstances.

"Physical strength" is an stat so to speak that is completely independent from shinsoo reinforcement, thorns, shinsoo boosts or any shinsoo techniques whatsoever. It refers to your bare unboosted body. If you are using any manner of shinsoo whatsoever then its not longer pure physical strength, its "physical strength plus "insert shinsoo technique".

In that sense, bam's body is simply not strong. It is laughably weak by even regular standards, let alone princesses who even as mere regulars can be physically stronger than rankers. This has been stated repeatedly over the entirety of the series.

People with strong bodies in this series are essentially superhuman without any shinsoo at all. As in, they can benchpress a mountain with one hand. And where it gets ridiculous is when these people use shinsoo reinforcement on top of that ridiculous innate strength. That's why Ha are so dangerous, they have notably strong bodies among the ten families and on top of that reinforcement shinsoo qualities. Zahard gets to build the bulk of his combat around strength because his body is immensely stronger than that of a ha and he complements that with the fact that he also excels at every other aspect of shinsoo combat. And his needle was the perfect weapon for him because it allowed him to combine his physical strength and shinsoo control into one thing.

As for your examples of bam taking zahard's attacks... I'd go as far as saying that they don't evidence what you are suggesting at all. Whenever things went south for bam during that fight and zaahrd got close and landed a physical hit on bam's -reinforced- body, bam basically ended on the other side of the field covered in his own blood. The only times bam succesfully defended against zahard's attacks was when he used some manner of shinsoo technique for added protection. Like when bam scattered his orb or used it to cover himself. But none of those cases evidence physical might.

Bam having a body anywhere near as strong as even the physically weakest princess is ridiculous.

You use some strong language but you’re right. I would say it’s really poetic actually: at the heart of it all, Bam is just a regular guy.

Kinda funny that it leaves open the possibility that Bam can go back to being a normal dude when it’s all done.

The biggest aspect of raw power without any shinsoo use is Urek. He couldn’t use any shinsoo and still beat the crap out of the Red Thryssa. Bam did provide needed support of course.

I still believe that internal control is an advanced technique - why use the lightning pill if internal control is easier? I bet it’s that the lightning pill forces the internal shinsoo to act in a similar manner, kind of like how the Frog oil forced natural energy into the skin. Eventually I bet Ran is able to use internal control without the pill.

One thing that really twists my noodle is how expert the ten heads were at the hell train. Still insane to me they knew so much. Bam still needs help. Lots of help.

 

[kkck]

You use some strong language but you’re right. I would say it’s really poetic actually: at the heart of it all, Bam is just a regular guy.

Kinda funny that it leaves open the possibility that Bam can go back to being a normal dude when it’s all done.

The biggest aspect of raw power without any shinsoo use is Urek. He couldn’t use any shinsoo and still beat the crap out of the Red Thryssa. Bam did provide needed support of course.

I still believe that internal control is an advanced technique - why use the lightning pill if internal control is easier? I bet it’s that the lightning pill forces the internal shinsoo to act in a similar manner, kind of like how the Frog oil forced natural energy into the skin. Eventually I bet Ran is able to use internal control without the pill.

One thing that really twists my noodle is how expert the ten heads were at the hell train. Still insane to me they knew so much. Bam still needs help. Lots of help.

I doubt bam can ever be just a regular guy. Even if he leaves the tower, he'd still have his ability to devour stuff. Presumably.


To me the urek fight is confusing and surreal to an extent. Setting aside that we are mostly unfamiliar with urek's specks, some of the stuff urek did during the fight seem improbable even if we factor in immense physical strength. Like his finger flick having that effect. It looked like a beam came out of him. But if that was just a finger flick... are we supposed to believe it wouldn't have blown up everything including bam?

As for the bold part, isn't that more or less the point made by eduan? As I understood if you have ISQC then you don't need the redan.

The family heads are without a doubt impressive at that point. But we also have to consider that they weren't exactly doing everything alone. They were a group of extremely talented individuals and had very varied shinsoo talents as well. They traveled together, learned together... And they also had non irregular companions, gustang and eurasia were probably instrumental in them understanding shinsoo better (even if eurasia is famed for not really knowing crap about shinsoo) and they also had the workshop to aid them. At least zahard got his needle from the workshop. And the workshop also set up the hell train for the family heads to train.

 

[Ripcord]

I doubt bam can ever be just a regular guy. Even if he leaves the tower, he'd still have his ability to devour stuff. Presumably.


To me the urek fight is confusing and surreal to an extent. Setting aside that we are mostly unfamiliar with urek's specks, some of the stuff urek did during the fight seem improbable even if we factor in immense physical strength. Like his finger flick having that effect. It looked like a beam came out of him. But if that was just a finger flick... are we supposed to believe it wouldn't have blown up everything including bam?

As for the bold part, isn't that more or less the point made by eduan? As I understood if you have ISQC then you don't need the redan.

The family heads are without a doubt impressive at that point. But we also have to consider that they weren't exactly doing everything alone. They were a group of extremely talented individuals and had very varied shinsoo talents as well. They traveled together, learned together... And they also had non irregular companions, gustang and eurasia were probably instrumental in them understanding shinsoo better (even if eurasia is famed for not really knowing crap about shinsoo) and they also had the workshop to aid them. At least zahard got his needle from the workshop. And the workshop also set up the hell train for the family heads to train.

Yes that’s exactly what Eduan had said which is why I relate the two (ok to be fair Bam had that recollection first). Either internal control is risky, not compatible with certain/most people, or difficult to do. If it’s something many high level Rankers can do either they haven’t needed it or it’s not very visible to us (perhaps the Ari internal control makes them silent, like cutting through the shinsoo like a sharp blade).

 

[kkck]

Yes that’s exactly what Eduan had said which is why I relate the two (ok to be fair Bam had that recollection first). Either internal control is risky, not compatible with certain/most people, or difficult to do. If it’s something many high level Rankers can do either they haven’t needed it or it’s not very visible to us (perhaps the Ari internal control makes them silent, like cutting through the shinsoo like a sharp blade).

Eduan refered to the lightning pill as being a simple and effective method but dangerous. In this case the relevant comparison would be ISQC. I would argue that the implication there is that ISQC is less risky (and more powerful) than the lightning pill. And the two instances where we explicitly see ISQC don't suggest either zahard or eduan suffered any strain.

 

[DERRICK S NIBLACK]

The stuff you are saying in regards to bam's body is irrelevant to the point I am making regarding bam's physical strength. And also vastly overestimates bam's physical capacity even under the best of circumstances.

"Physical strength" is an stat so to speak that is completely independent from shinsoo reinforcement, thorns, shinsoo boosts or any shinsoo techniques whatsoever. It refers to your bare unboosted body. If you are using any manner of shinsoo whatsoever then its not longer pure physical strength, its "physical strength plus "insert shinsoo technique".

In that sense, bam's body is simply not strong. It is laughably weak by even regular standards, let alone princesses who even as mere regulars can be physically stronger than rankers. This has been stated repeatedly over the entirety of the series.

People with strong bodies in this series are essentially superhuman without any shinsoo at all. As in, they can benchpress a mountain with one hand. And where it gets ridiculous is when these people use shinsoo reinforcement on top of that ridiculous innate strength. That's why Ha are so dangerous, they have notably strong bodies among the ten families and on top of that reinforcement shinsoo qualities. Zahard gets to build the bulk of his combat around strength because his body is immensely stronger than that of a ha and he complements that with the fact that he also excels at every other aspect of shinsoo combat. And his needle was the perfect weapon for him because it allowed him to combine his physical strength and shinsoo control into one thing.

As for your examples of bam taking zahard's attacks... I'd go as far as saying that they don't evidence what you are suggesting at all. Whenever things went south for bam during that fight and zaahrd got close and landed a physical hit on bam's -reinforced- body, bam basically ended on the other side of the field covered in his own blood. The only times bam succesfully defended against zahard's attacks was when he used some manner of shinsoo technique for added protection. Like when bam scattered his orb or used it to cover himself. But none of those cases evidence physical might.

Bam having a body anywhere near as strong as even the physically weakest princess is ridiculous.

There is plenty evidence and I gave you a big example but it seems you're to opinionated to see. Baam literally withstood one of Zahards attacks and still overpowered him in the end. Zahard himself explained how powerful a princess body is. Secondly Baam is the child of 2 irregulars. It was always known that children of irregulars (family heads) have stronger bodies than normal people. Koon withstood a piercing butterfly from Viole with minimum damage. So much proof Baam has a natural body stronger than normal people and his internal shinsu control at least make his body at least 10 times stronger than a princess when he's using his power. The proof is right there, Baam always withstands very powerful attack and comes out unscathed. Even in the testing floor he ate a ignited weapon with only a few scratches.

 

[FailSauce]

Ok i think a few things are missing..and kinda way off topic. so to start with the off topic stuff.

Baam starts super weak. That is undeniable, at the same time he has worked really hard to improve his "base" stats. This is why he can use the thorn(s) for longer now. Is he unaided stronger than say a princess? LOL no. Not yet. Keep in mind though that basically everyone is like "his potential is unlimited", and considering he needs a stronger "base" form to use the thorns for longer/safely, he will continue to grow in that regard. Which i think is the key here: baam is still currently "weaker" than most 10 family bodies unaided. That said he has come a LONG way since the floor of test. At the same time, give it a few more months of growth and it probably wouldnt be incorrect to say his "body" is stronger than any normal 10 family member aside from the heads. That said...fully ignited/powered up no current person is a match for him. He is undeniably stronger than mascheny, fully powered, at the same point in there journey.

On topic:
From what i understand from edans dialog, IQSC drastically improves the "innate" use of shinsoo. So think of it as a cleaner and more efficent fuel. It makes the attacks stronger AND uses less energy. Think of the baam/koon fight. Went from a "oh god koon is screwed" to " haha baam is ez". As far as if baam can use it correctly yet..id say no. After all edan said that the "glow" type shit taht he and zehard manifest is basically from mastery OF that. it allows them to manifest it externally. And thus far none of the regulars/baam have shown that. So they are on the path to being able to do it, but have not yet achieved true mastery of IQSC.

 

[DERRICK S NIBLACK]

Baam doesn't have a weak body. His body without enhancements is equal to or even greater than Koon. Baam's is the son of 2 irregulars with the same staus as 10 family heads. V was probably in the same power level as Arie Hon or Koon Eduan.

 

[kkck]

I don't really get why bam's physical strength being negligible is so controversial. On one hand, its literally stated a number of times over the course of the series. On the other, it doesn't mean bam can't become physically powerful either. heck not too long ago we were debating whether bam could become a physical beast on account of his heritage and people objected to bam even being as strong as your average 10 family member.

And also, bam being as physically strong as aguero... impossible. Aguero even took a shinsoo blast from viole and stood up, the guy is made out of adamantium compared to bam.

 

[King Dryst]

I don't really get why bam's physical strength being negligible is so controversial.

Because people don't cotton to the concept of him being weak, or really being anything less than exceptional in any way. I don't necessarily disagree with that line of thinking myself, either, considering what he is and his role in the story.

 

[kkck]

Because people don't cotton to the concept of him being weak, or really being anything less than exceptional in any way. I don't necessarily disagree with that line of thinking myself, either, considering what he is and his role in the story.

But I am not saying he is weak overall, just that he is weak physically. And the only implication that has is that bam won't be punching people into submission, nothing else. And his physical weakness is not even an assumption, its been explicitly stated over and over again.

 

[King Dryst]

But I am not saying he is weak overall, just that he is weak physically. And the only implication that has is that bam won't be punching people into submission, nothing else. And his physical weakness is not even an assumption, its been explicitly stated over and over again.

I'm not trying to say that you're wrong. Just that some readers are not going to be in a hurry to acknowledge the point of Baam being in any way inferior to the plebs. Considering Irregular, main character, son of two Family Heads, et cetera.

 

[Ripcord]

I'm not trying to say that you're wrong. Just that some readers are not going to be in a hurry to acknowledge the point of Baam being in any way inferior to the plebs. Considering Irregular, main character, son of two Family Heads, et cetera.

It’s not that Bam is weaker than the plebs. Through and through Bam’s strength is in using shinsoo and without it he’s weaker than a lot of other Regulars. Every single amazing feat Bam has accomplished so far is because of the way he uses shinsoo.

Every. Single. One.

This isn’t to say that it diminishes Bam at all. He is an AMAZING user of shinsoo such that he eclipses all Regulars of his rank overall. From what we see, Bam punching someone may look like he’s not using shinsoo but in that moment he absolutely is using it. And when he tanks a punch from data Zahard he absolutely is using shinsoo.

On the other side of it, Urek, Yuri, Androssi, Anak, and Rak (among others) can dish out and take a ton of damage without using shinsoo. They are far and away tougher in body than Bam is. Can Anak, Rak, or Androssi beat Bam in a real fight with shinsoo? No way. Can they beat him in a fist fight where no one uses shinsoo? Absolutely.

But as I said, this in no way diminishes Bam. He is what he is, and that is amazing. It is important to distinguish what Bam really is doing and to appreciate the diversity of the ToG cast. Bam just can’t do everything, and that is part of what makes him so relatable.

 

[Flamezy287]

Baam isn't really physically weak per say, it's more of a community notion than the actual manhwa fact, if you really think about it baam is constantly gauged with peoole far above him, most of y'all are comparing him with the likes of ha jinsung, jerk, zahard, well of course he pales in comparison these are high rankers so every stat of theirs is way above the chart compared to baam's level. And fighting data jahad proves that he was kicked around when it came to hand to hand combat for the first part but he was successful able to handle what even data maschenny couldn't, based on his level I think he's overwhelmingly impresive and in every aspect he's where he needs to be as he progressed his physical and also other stat would increase

 

[TheLastMartian]

They said people can have multiple qualities so chances are Bam has the Orb as a shape, and something else as his "elemental" (probably something to do with him being able to absorb the powers of others).

 

[kkck]

They said people can have multiple qualities so chances are Bam has the Orb as a shape, and something else as his "elemental" (probably something to do with him being able to absorb the powers of others).

I don't think that is quite how it works. Take a look at aguero. He didn't first get the spear and then ice, he straight up got the ice spear. My take on that bit was that other shinsoo qualities and shapes bam gets could be entirely different things from an orb. And if he gets elemental orbs, they'd be distinct from his original orb.

 

[TheLastMartian]

I don't think that is quite how it works. Take a look at aguero. He didn't first get the spear and then ice, he straight up got the ice spear. My take on that bit was that other shinsoo qualities and shapes bam gets could be entirely different things from an orb. And if he gets elemental orbs, they'd be distinct from his original orb.

Hmmm maybe. From the fight with data Zahard I think another one of his qualities is void or something similar as he was using both black "bam style" attacks and his orb using "star dust" techniques at the same time. Later when he breaks deng Deng out his orb is using water like attacks (similar to the very first time he summoned it) so I don't think he is going to get other shapes and the red orbs and the water orb look similar but one is liquid and the other looks more like light.

Daddy Koon was surprised when Bam's orb first changed to the color red but I think the red and star dust techniques come more from the thorn than Bam's own quality, and he is using the orb to concentrate them.