Discussion Is Haki breaking the balance?

[poncho1]

We have various types of abilities in One Piece. One of them is Haki. As far as we know a well-trained Haki has pretty much endless potential. But what about the feared Logia-type users? If you think about it if someone, who has Logia power but can't control any kind of Haki, is pretty doomed against really powerful people (or powerful people with Haki).

And this circumstance is pretty much one of the few problems that I have with One Piece right now. I know we didn't see many things in the New World so far and there are also plenty of strong people with incredible abilities out there. But the fact that there's such a power which gives you the opportunity to hit Logia type user without any problem, transfer the "armor" into your weapon, to use it as defense and attack, "read the mind" of your opponent and also in some cases the ability to knock out thousands of "weaker" enemies in a wink without any real disadvantages so far. This seems just tremendously strong, especially when you combine this ability with another one like a DF or other combat skills.

If you consider all of the abilities such as Devil Fruits (Zoan, Paramecia, Logia), Rokushiki, sword combat and any other close combat styles - the idea of Haki is a good one, but the potencial of this power is just extremely high which makes some other abilities look useless/ unnecessary, especially in the New World.

So what do you think is Haki the answer for everything in the future or should Oda implement some kind of "general restriction" for Haki user or maybe bring up anequivalent power or something like that, and do you even consider One Piece owerpowered in some way or unbalanced in terms of power, skills, abilities?

 

[Seafarer]

Well, look at it this way: from what we're told, Haki is the ability of the strongest individuals. As such, it shouldn't be balanced against the rest. It's meant to surpass them, period.
Furthermore, being able to touch logia users might be a plus, but you still need to hold your ground and endure magma, ice, or whatever they throw at you. I would merely consider Haki to compensate for the huge advantage that logia users previously had.

Still, I do understand your concern and I too wouldn't like Haki users to become the sole force to be reckoned with in the second half of the manga. But I wouldn't want either to find out that there's a further level of badassery beyond Haki: that's when and how most shonen battle mangas begin to lose their interest...

However, I think we can trust Oda to continuously come up with inventive DF powers and creative use of other abilities. See how Caesar played on oxygen levels, or how Jola's power can render most fighters harmless, for example. And we have yet to see if Haki can really make that big a difference against the likes of Fujitora...

So all in all, I wouldn't consider One Piece to be unbalanced so far. It may become so in the future and how the events at Dressrosa play out will have a huge part in this, but only time will tell.

 

[A c e]

Haki is the key to beatnig lugias. How else would rubber beat magma lol. It was meant to be this strong force which will give haki users a chance to beat overpowered devil fruits.

I think in the new world, luffy will be facing more and more strong haki users. With each fight, it helps develop his haki skills even further. Everything prior to the new world was luffy developing his devil fruit abilitiess. I think oda is using chinjoa to kinda showcase luffy's haki and show us where hes at in terms of his haki skills. We now know luffy using haki alone isnt enough to beat chinjao (since he's resorting to his df powers) So luffy has a long way before hes yankou level.

 

[HereNThere]

And this circumstance is pretty much one of the few problems that I have with One Piece right now. I know we didn't see many things in the New World so far and there are also plenty of strong people with incredible abilities out there. But the fact that there's such a power which gives you the opportunity to hit Logia type user without any problem, transfer the "armor" into your weapon, to use it as defense and attack, "read the mind" of your opponent and also in some cases the ability to knock out thousands of "weaker" enemies in a wink without any real disadvantages so far. This seems just tremendously strong, especially when you combine this ability with another one like a DF or other combat skills.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Haki is the great equalizer. It allows combatants to fight on equal ground with their powers without one being at an unfair disadvantage. Before Haki was (properly) introduced, Logia and certain other fruits were pretty much unstoppable unless they had a specific weakness(water, blood, seastone, etc.) Haki now makes it more convenient to fight.

Haki would only be broken if DF users couldn't also do it. But since they can, it's pretty even. The fights now just depend on power, technique, and willpower, instead of broken abilities.

If you consider all of the abilities such as Devil Fruits (Zoan, Paramecia, Logia), Rokushiki, sword combat and any other close combat styles - the idea of Haki is a good one, but the potencial of this power is just extremely high which makes some other abilities look useless/ unnecessary, especially in the New World.

Haki isn't really a fighting style. It's an "passive" ability that could be used in conjunction with other powers and techniques. The potential lies with the user, everyone isn't going to be a master of all three, some have different preferences with each Color. And even then only some people will be awesome with it, and some people will be less so. Haki shouldn't make anything obsolete/unnecessary.

So what do you think is Haki the answer for everything in the future or should Oda implement some kind of "general restriction" for Haki user or maybe bring up anequivalent power or something like that, and do you even consider One Piece owerpowered in some way or unbalanced in terms of power, skills, abilities?

There really doesn't need to be a restriction since everyone has the potential to use it. Plus Haki doesn't even guarantee a hit against a Logia user as we've seen with Marco and Vista vs. Akainu.

 

[kkck]

I don't think haki can really unbalance anything. The main consideration here is that regardless of how hax haki might appear it is a painfully generic skill available to everyone. If it is available to everyone then by definition it can't break a balance. More so, haki is by no means a replacement for martial arts not can be thought of in the same manner as a martial art simply because of how ordinary an skill it is. Haki is meant to enhance, to improve, not to replace. Its a generic stepping stone in any process to acquire strength.

If anything haki actually balances everything out. Without haki logia users would be virtually invincible. Even WB would not be able to defeat several of them even with his insane strength.

To be completely fair the manga has presented haki in a way that even if a haki user were to fight a non haki user without his haki he would still win in most cases (but not all). Safe for the kuja ladies the manga has presented haki as something that is acquired through strength and experience. So in the vast majority of cases haki would require the user to be pretty damn strong to begin with.

And of course haki would make a difference against fujitora. The manga already made the point that all VA and higher marines are haki users so fujitora himself is a haki user. Observation haki would be a must against him considering it would be the only way to actually be able to avoid his cosmic attacks.

Haki itself can also be used to resist fruit abilities to a great degree based on what we have seen before. The admirals apparently used it to stop WBs attack on the scaffold and I would argue it had something to do with several people not being burned to a crisp by akainu. It was also mentioned by smoker that tashigi's haki would not be strong enough to defend from law's ability which directly implies strong enough haki can protect you from it. Perhaps strong enough haki could even defend you from jola's ability. In this scenario the implication would be that someone able to defend from jola's ability via haki would to begin with be insanely stronger than her though.

 

[poncho1]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Haki is the great equalizer. It allows combatants to fight on equal ground with their powers without one being at an unfair disadvantage. Before Haki was (properly) introduced, Logia and certain other fruits were pretty much unstoppable unless they had a specific weakness(water, blood, seastone, etc.) Haki now makes it more convenient to fight.

Haki would only be broken if DF users couldn't also do it. But since they can, it's pretty even. The fights now just depend on power, technique, and willpower, instead of broken abilities.



Haki isn't really a fighting style. It's an "passive" ability that could be used in conjunction with other powers and techniques. The potential lies with the user, everyone isn't going to be a master of all three, some have different preferences with each Color. And even then only some people will be awesome with it, and some people will be less so. Haki shouldn't make anything obsolete/unnecessary.



There really doesn't need to be a restriction since everyone has the potential to use it. Plus Haki doesn't even guarantee a hit against a Logia user as we've seen with Marco and Vista vs. Akainu.

I absolutely understand you and at the moment the concept of Haki is working pretty well. But my main concern is that the idea of Haki and all the other abilities will inevitably lead to other "power-ups". I 'm talking here about the mental and physical aspects of a fight.
I mean if we have Logia on the one and Haki on the other side then what will it look like in the future, let's say someone like Sakazuki with the power of Busoshoku fighting against someone like Luffy. Yes Luffy has Haki + his DF abillities but as you mentioned someone like Sakazuki has a destructive power even without Busoshoku, so what if someone who hasn't susch destrucitve power wants to keep up? Well he has to develop a similar kind of effectiveness and if Haki's the key then that would be a tremendous increase in terms of opportunities. I mean if you are able to beat a guy that has the power to control magma, with only physical and mental strength beyond anyone else's then this person has a hell of a power.

 

[TheLuffySmile]

I think it all ultimately boils down to that haki atleast gives you a relatively fair chance when fighting a Logia, and that experience is crucial.
Zakazuki: he has already mastered haki to a great degree, and to top that of he is a magma-man with great destructive powers, he has an almost automated defense even against experienced haki users like Vista and Marco.
Caribou: A swamp Logia rookie with a 200 million+ Beri bounty (a fruit with great potential) Granted we have not seen that much from him fighting-wise, but he relies far too much on his ability as seen when Pekoms (who is an experienced fighter in a yonkou crew just like Marco and Vista) kicks his ass We have not seen any haki display from caribou and not really any good defensive capabilities/reactions either.

Experience is crucial.

 

[weixiaobao]

A Logia with haki can still be put in check by people with equal skill in haki hence they are not invisible. I think you form this opinion because of Monet vs Zoro. However, haki users are not immune to logia's abilities. The stronger one trained their logia abilities and physical capacities. They could fight on par with a haki users. For example, Crocodile could probably trash the Gordon sisters (beside Hancock). I think he could kill Tashigi postskipped and Boo eventhough they would give him some trouble. But if Crocodile has physical stat that is higher than Rob Lucci in term of speed, strength, and durability, he could easily overwhelmed most of the nobodies.

If enhance Crocodile were to fight against an opponent like Vergo, it could go either way. Vergo is not immune to being dried up though Vergo could break out of the lock. So ultimately, logia with mastery of haki like Akainu is extremely strong but they can still put in check by the like of Garp and Rayleigh. Both has the abilities to kill Akainu, but both could be in serious danger if they get hit by Akainu's attacks.

 

[HereNThere]

I absolutely understand you and at the moment the concept of Haki is working pretty well. But my main concern is that the idea of Haki and all the other abilities will inevitably lead to other "power-ups". I 'm talking here about the mental and physical aspects of a fight.
I mean if we have Logia on the one and Haki on the other side then what will it look like in the future, let's say someone like Sakazuki with the power of Busoshoku fighting against someone like Luffy. Yes Luffy has Haki + his DF abillities but as you mentioned someone like Sakazuki has a destructive power even without Busoshoku, so what if someone who hasn't susch destrucitve power wants to keep up? Well he has to develop a similar kind of effectiveness and if Haki's the key then that would be a tremendous increase in terms of opportunities. I mean if you are able to beat a guy that has the power to control magma, with only physical and mental strength beyond anyone else's then this person has a hell of a power.

Your Luffy and Sakazuki scenario is exactly why haki isn't breaking the balance. Someone like Luffy can't just steamroll Sakazuki even with haki, because Sakazuki's base Devil's Fruit ability is just that effective. Another power up isn't needed as Luffy is combining both haki and his devil's fruit abilities to come up with much more effective moves such as Red Hawk which would allow him to keep up with opponents with abilities as destructive as Sakazuki and others. I'm assuming other pirates have done the same with combing haki and their fruit abilities.

 

[Anduren]

I'm not sure if this could be called a "power up" depending on how it ends up expanded on, but we have yet to see Luffy develop his ability to hear the voice of all things. Seems to me that this ability is even more rare than Haki seeing as the only other person confirmed to be able to use it is Roger. Then there's also the will of D. and how the people with the initial always end up at the right place at the right time. Fate has played a large part in keeping Luffy alive and getting him where he needs to go. In the end, I think its these kinds of things that cannot really be trained or achieved by just anyone that will help him reach Raftel and become the Pirate King setting him apart from all the other pirates.

But as Chinjao said, to be Pirate King, Luffy is also required to challenge and stand on top of all the conquerors. I don't know if this has anything to do with having the strongest armament or observation haki considering that Luffy was shown to have Conqueror's haki long before he even learned how to use armament and observation haki. So I'm guessing those two don't necessarily have to be perfected to have a strong Conqueror's haki. Instead, Luffy just have to prove that his ambition and conviction is stronger than the rest, and that he has fate and the will of D. on his side.

 

[vasilis]

to the op
i think its good because on the one hand, everyone can do it
on the other hand, to use it you need some personal effort, not the "luck" of running into a fruit

else the whole one piece universe will be based on luck ( i mean some fruits are pretty much 1-button-win in gaming terms, light fruit, thunder fruit...)
'if you find a good logia, you rule everything"

also, with haki you can reach logias, it isnt instant anti-logia power
as other people mention
just cause you can "touch" thunder and manga and whatever, doesnt mean you can take the damage from it

example, luffy beat enel cause he was electro-proof
i doubt even with haki, how many people would beat enel
he was teleporting to random spots at high speed, shooting thunders and stuff with observation haki and lets say you catch him

BOOOM, "pikachu go electroshock"

 

[TheLuffySmile]

to the op
i think its good because on the one hand, everyone can do it
on the other hand, to use it you need some personal effort, not the "luck" of running into a fruit

else the whole one piece universe will be based on luck ( i mean some fruits are pretty much 1-button-win in gaming terms, light fruit, thunder fruit...)
'if you find a good logia, you rule everything"

also, with haki you can reach logias, it isnt instant anti-logia power
as other people mention
just cause you can "touch" thunder and manga and whatever, doesnt mean you can take the damage from it

example, luffy beat enel cause he was electro-proof
i doubt even with haki, how many people would beat enel
he was teleporting to random spots at high speed, shooting thunders and stuff with observation haki and lets say you catch him

BOOOM, "pikachu go electroshock"

I agree with almost all of your points, but even if you're lucky to find the magma/ice/lightning fruit(or any logia), not everyone can use it proficiently. For instance, look at caribou and ace, ace is so much more proficient with his. I could make many comparisons but I think you get my point, Logia = not invincible: it depends on the finder.

 

[Greasybuttsex]

We have various types of abilities in One Piece. One of them is Haki. As far as we know a well-trained Haki has pretty much endless potential. But what about the feared Logia-type users? If you think about it if someone, who has Logia power but can't control any kind of Haki, is pretty doomed against really powerful people (or powerful people with Haki).

And this circumstance is pretty much one of the few problems that I have with One Piece right now. I know we didn't see many things in the New World so far and there are also plenty of strong people with incredible abilities out there. But the fact that there's such a power which gives you the opportunity to hit Logia type user without any problem, transfer the "armor" into your weapon, to use it as defense and attack, "read the mind" of your opponent and also in some cases the ability to knock out thousands of "weaker" enemies in a wink without any real disadvantages so far. This seems just tremendously strong, especially when you combine this ability with another one like a DF or other combat skills.

If you consider all of the abilities such as Devil Fruits (Zoan, Paramecia, Logia), Rokushiki, sword combat and any other close combat styles - the idea of Haki is a good one, but the potencial of this power is just extremely high which makes some other abilities look useless/ unnecessary, especially in the New World.

So what do you think is Haki the answer for everything in the future or should Oda implement some kind of "general restriction" for Haki user or maybe bring up anequivalent power or something like that, and do you even consider One Piece owerpowered in some way or unbalanced in terms of power, skills, abilities?

So in other words, You are upset, that people who aren't logia users, now have a CHANCE of beating them? As opposed to where you cant even touch or hurt a logia user before haki and the new world, how is that fair at all, are people just suppose to find their weaknesses anytime they run across a logia? Like crocs water, eneru rubber, monet heat.

I feel like your trolling because i've never even thought that someone would think like this, ever since logia was introduced it was overwhelmingly one sided for anyone whose non-logia.

Not only this but MOST people we encounter are all haki users in the new world. Aside from Caribou which was a joke character and was to show that just being a logia no longer is an instant victory. As caribou had 0 fighting skill but still managed 210,000,000 beri bounty ONLY because he is logia. but the only other one Caesar, was even able to beat luffy in their first encounter despite not being able to use haki.

We also know that haki isn't just some UBER weapon that once you have makes you stronger than all, As we have seen MULTIPLE times, even a non haki user can beat a haki user in a fight I.e. Luffy VS snake sisters, luffy vs eneru, etc. If your haki is weak then it doesn't become near as good of a weapon, most people only develop one anyway. Its not an absolute victory and it takes much time to become some revolutionary strength.


in other words, no haki ISN'T breaking the balance.


HAKI IS THE BALANCE

---------- Post added at 12:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:17 PM ----------

I agree with almost all of your points, but even if you're lucky to find the magma/ice/lightning fruit(or any logia), not everyone can use it proficiently. For instance, look at caribou and ace, ace is so much more proficient with his. I could make many comparisons but I think you get my point, Logia = not invincible: it depends on the finder.

There are 2 different types of logia in my eyes.

1. The logia with Elements of offensive traits
2. The logia with Elements that dont.

people of the first kind are like, Akainu, Kizaru, Aokiji, They all have an element with overwhelming offensive potential, akianus magma is dangerous to the touch its offensive power will melt anything and allows great destructive attacks, Kizarus light allows attacks at light speed, an unbeatable speed and powers with such high piercing ability they go through anything. Aokijis ice is all about form and how you use it its very free in both offense and defense.

people of the first kind are like, smoker, and caribou, Smokers cloud enables quick movement and flight along with transporting his body but it doesnt hold near the level of the first kind and depends much more on physical strength (like luffys fruit) than the use of the element itself, Caribous use is for storing other weapons which depends on your own efficiency with them along with that he has abilities to restrain others but the literal "danger" is almost none, its mud.

Comparing Ace and Caribou i wouldnt bother with for ur example of proficiecy of the devil fruits, since caribous ability is fairly limited in destructive power and he mostly uses it for weapons which depends more on physical strength

 

[vasilis]

anything comes down to the user
but its like comparing a bow with a sniper

ok if you are an expert the bow may be better at aiming but still
make an aiming race
1st player, legolas, with his majestic bow
can shoot, orc in 100 meters
2nd player a random guy that someone shown him how to shoot, with a last tech sniper
he just has to look through the gear and pull the trigger to hit a freaking butterfly in 1000 meters
not even fair comparison

some fruits give so much raw power, that even without mastering the fruit...
example, light fruit
you have a jedi throwing freaking laser beams its awesome more or less
while other fruits, like luffy need more creativity rather than just shooting elemental stuff

 

[Schabrak]

What is the bow and sniper rifle supposed to represent in your comparison? Van Augur is a wrose sniper than Ussop because he uses a gun with a scope?

 

[TheLuffySmile]

There are 2 different types of logia in my eyes.

1. The logia with Elements of offensive traits
2. The logia with Elements that dont.

people of the first kind are like, Akainu, Kizaru, Aokiji, They all have an element with overwhelming offensive potential, akianus magma is dangerous to the touch its offensive power will melt anything and allows great destructive attacks, Kizarus light allows attacks at light speed, an unbeatable speed and powers with such high piercing ability they go through anything. Aokijis ice is all about form and how you use it its very free in both offense and defense.

people of the second kind, smoker, and caribou, Smokers cloud enables quick movement and flight along with transporting his body but it doesnt hold near the level of the first kind and depends much more on physical strength (like luffys fruit) than the use of the element itself, Caribous use is for storing other weapons which depends on your own efficiency with them along with that he has abilities to restrain others but the literal "danger" is almost none, its mud.

Comparing Ace and Caribou i wouldnt bother with for ur example of proficiecy of the devil fruits, since caribous ability is fairly limited in destructive power and he mostly uses it for weapons which depends more on physical strength

Yeah that's true, in destructive power ace definitely comes out on top, no question about it. But I think that a novice with the mera mera no mi would lose against an experienced numa numa no mi user. There are so many factors to take into account as well, Is caribous fruit capable of more offensive moves than storing weapons? I'd like to think so. And then there's the element of surprise, Haki knowledge/strength, many things to factor in. As I wrote a few posts above this one:

Experience matters
Edit: I took the liberty of correcting your mistake (you wrote the first kind twice) hope you dont mind.

 

[amidaru312]

I think the reason why the new world is so powerful is because there will be a lot of logia type, and Haki is the only counter to that, and it's suppose to be the land of monster, so it's like haki is something everyone have, so it wont exactly be a problem. It's just who has the stronger haki

 

[vasilis]

what i say is modern snipers, do everything for you and you just have to pull a trigger, the freaking sniper almost aims itself
while bow on the other hand, you have to do everything

same with some fruits
you blast lethal elemental stuff on the other person...i mean how hard can it be?

 

[Schabrak]

Depending on the enemy from as easy as blowing air to as hard as the immovable shield. Do you honestly believe Ace, Sakazuki, Kuzan and Borsalino were as good as they were on the first day of using their fruits? The previous admiral trio were massively experienced marine officers with powerful haki, while Ace did aim for top in the NW himself, even if that was to help his dad Newgate. They did train, test things out, created techniques on their own, it's not as easy as you make it seem. Yeah using such an offensive ability may not be hard, but controling and shaping it will have been no walk in the park. Not gonna say that some aren't overpowered to begin with.

 

[vasilis]

exactly

ofc the personal effort goes in the equation

but some fruits are lethal to begin with
example in previous convo, i said about earthquake fruit, and i got countered cause BB was damaging his own crew with the earthquakes
well, since, he unleashed the firepower of the fruit in minutes

ofc those people with their fighting spirit and clever mind find more delicate attacks
but in the end an avalanche of magna/ice or a rain of lightning/lasers is lethal, no matter how you look at it