Discussion Is Kuma as Strong as We Think?

[GeckoMoria]

alot of people regard Kuma as "top tier shichibuaki" but what has he really done thats so overpowering? lets look back on Kumas exploits. He defeated the entire strawhat crew twice but in both cases they were horribly beaten up from either fighting Moria+Oz(the first time) and then Kizaru, sentomaru, and 2 PXes. So far i say the most impressive stuff hes done would be detonating thriller bark and back talking kizaru. Kuma has yet to actually stomp out an opponent who is at 100% and who is decently strong. I vote him more as an engima and a cool character but it remains to be seen if he is actually "top tier". Your thoughts?

p.s. i know Kuma was called the "violent-kun" but as to why well that was off panel and off panel doesn't prove much here.

 

[Onomatopoeia]

Well first Gecko is seriously worried about him even more so then the rest of the Sichi(Mihawk included). His DF is pretty haxxed giving the definte power to be top tier Sichibuki. He's been pretty hyped.

PX-4 is a model which isn't even on the same continent as Kuma. Yet it could probablly take 2 out of three people in the Monster Trio 2v1(and win).

Sure it's nothing but Powerscaling and reasoning but thats like saying Mihawk has shown nothing that puts him at top tier since the only thing he pwned was an East Blue Zoro who would die in two seconds against even an injured TB Zoro.

 

[BlackHair]

Im putting Mihawk on Yonkou/Admiral lvl, while Kuma a bit under. I think its already clear that Gecko and Croco are not on last tier lvl, since Luffy already beat them and he can't be on that lvl right now (since OP is on about 50%). Hancock, Flamingo and Jimbei can't be estimated yet.

About Kuma, Im just power scaling him with the SHs. The whole group defeated with immense efforts a pacifista, while Kuma must be with his DF a lot stronger then those.

Mwk must be on last tier lvl, 'cause he is the ultimate goal of Zoro and he is carrying the title strongest swordsman. Since I believe Zoro will defeat Mwk near the end of OP, there must be much space for him to grow. As he is now, he probably can't beat him yet. I also believe Mwk is stronger than Shanks, who is a Yonko.

 

[bittman]

Yeah I'd generally agree with what blackhair says, but I would just group Blackbeard, Mihawk and Kuma together in the top tier. No sense saying "well Mihawk is a bit better" if you're going to make tiers, since he would have to be on a whole other level to be seen that far above Kuma.

How I see it:
Top - Blackbeard, Mihawk, Kuma
Middle - Doflamingo, Moria, (Jimbei?)
Low - Hancock, [Crocodile], (JImbei?)

Should be self explanatory. Jimbei is ??? only because we haven't seen him, but I would wager he won't be one of the more important Shichibukai's. Hancock is low only because of what we've seen so far, if she pulls out a decent Haki move she may bump to Middle. However, if Luffy beats her in this arc without any support, even if he's within an inch of his life, she stays Low tier.

 

[BlackHair]

I totally forget BB xD.

but I would just group Blackbeard, Mihawk and Kuma together in the top tier.

I totally agree with u. I just said "a bit" 'cause I believe Kuma isn't as strong as Mwk and BB. But they must be in same class, like u said.

But I think ur underestimating Hancock.

However, if Luffy beats her in this arc without any support, even if he's within an inch of his life, she stays Low tier.

If Luffy beats her with Gear 2+3+haki then there was more needed to beat her unlike Croco. U can't put them in the same tier.

 

[Onomatopoeia]

If Hancock gets beaten by Luffy using Gear 2+3 and Haki I'm not sure whether I would put her at above or below Moria. Sure Moria was beaten pretty badly near the end but he also got hit by a ton of different things. Though to be fair so did Luffy, meh.

I might put Hancock a bit above Moria simply because Luffy may have to use Haki. Anyways Moria is a wild card, if he had played it wisely then I think he would have been able to have had a much better chance against 2+3.

 

[kkck]

I think moria would have stood a better chance of defeating luffy if he had never absorbed all those shadows though. By doing that he turned himself into a massive bullseye for luffy to punch. Also moria in that state was almost like a wild animal. He could barely control himself.

 

[Tomgoood01]

Back to the fight with Kuma at TB when after Kuma did his air bomb, Zoro even thought exhausted from the battle with the Samurai, Oz and Moria he was able to strike a blow against Kuma. The attack was a bit of a ambush so kuma may have been taken from surprise but Kuma was in fit condition to be able to doge such an attack. While Zoro was out of shape to be at his fastest and strongest. So with that said if Kuma had not had his cyborg body he might have taken a serious injury.

Comparing it to Mihawk or shanks or even white beard who don't have such kind of bodies i think they would be able to block or doge such an attack. For that could be the reason why Kuma has such an body being that he does not have the ability or power as the rest of the top tier people of OP. Making Kuma weaker than we actually think he is.

 

[BlackHair]

Back to the fight with Kuma at TP when after Kuma did his air bomb Zoro even thought exhausted from the battle with he Samurai, Oz and Moria he was able to strike a blow against Kuma. The attack was a bit of a ambush so kuma may have been taken from surprise but Kuma was in fit condition to be able to doge such an attack. While Zoro was out of shape to be at his fastest and strongest. So with that said if Kuma had not had his cyborg body he might have taken a serious injury.

thx for pointing this out. For exact that reason I said earlier "a bit". And tbh Im not sure by putting him in the last tier. But he seems to have himself made a big name and that's why Im not rly sure. Kuma is certainly strong and way stronger than the SHs right now.

About Moria, its his own fault for using shadow asgard for that extent, by using 1k shadows. Its just shows his lack in experience and a cool mind.

 

[Absolutio]

Back to the fight with Kuma at TB when after Kuma did his air bomb, Zoro even thought exhausted from the battle with the Samurai, Oz and Moria he was able to strike a blow against Kuma. The attack was a bit of a ambush so kuma may have been taken from surprise but Kuma was in fit condition to be able to doge such an attack. While Zoro was out of shape to be at his fastest and strongest. So with that said if Kuma had not had his cyborg body he might have taken a serious injury.

Comparing it to Mihawk or shanks or even white beard who don't have such kind of bodies i think they would be able to block or doge such an attack. For that could be the reason why Kuma has such an body being that he does not have the ability or power as the rest of the top tier people of OP. Making Kuma weaker than we actually think he is.

I quite disagree with you.. It's the same with Luffy.. You know how many times in the OP series Luffy had been hitted by surprise by pistol bullets, and he survived "only because of his rubber body" (which reminds of the "only because of his cyborg body").. If he didn't have his rubber body, he would've been way more cautious and could've dodged the bullets easily. Being immune to those attacks, such as Kuma is immune to the attacks he recieved, makes them less aware of them, but if needed, Kuma could easily dodge/repel it.

Aside from that, Kuma has one of the most unique and best self-developed Devil Fruits. Look what he achieved with a "simple" Paramecia Repel fruit.
-He can repel anything, including both physical entities and mental entities.
-He can move himself around so fast that it seems like teleportation.
-He can make people fly for 3 days and 3 nights for a destination he chooses.
And aside from that, he also got upgraded with a very very very strong Cyborg body and capabilities. Even Zoro couldn't cut his metalic body, not to mention that just a simple model of him (the pacifista), that only has his cyboric capabilities, not his fighting experience/capabilities or DF powers, took all of the crew to defeat, and they were exhausted.
Kuma is very strong and very deadly, and is one of the most unique characters we've been introduced to so far.

 

[Onomatopoeia]

If Kuma had wanted to he could have easily dodged that attack and that jibe at his body is like attacking Luffy because he "only" has rubber body. Were counting all of their abilities. If he didn't have his body he would be more cautious but with a body like that he doesn't have to care.

Honestly Kuma's paw could possibly damage Logia's...

 

[BlackHair]

True, with Kumas body he don't rly have to be careful as normal humans do. But he used one of his attacks and expected everyone to be unconsciousness, which wasn't true. Basically he did a half ass job by underestimating the SHs. Its different than walking down the street knowing there are guys pointing guns at you.

Kiz for example used his attacks on the SN and knew for sure that they are not in a state to move any more. Basically Im expecting if Kiz or AoKiji was in Kumas position, Zoro wouldn't probably be able to do that attack.

To avoid misunderstandings, Kuma is strong and way stronger than the SHs. Im not doubting his powers, but we are talking if he is or not in the last tier. And Im not sure by putting him in that fighting power class.

 

[Tomgoood01]

If Kuma had wanted to he could have easily dodged that attack and that jibe at his body is like attacking Luffy because he "only" has rubber body. Were counting all of their abilities. If he didn't have his body he would be more cautious but with a body like that he doesn't have to care.

So are you saying Kuma wanted to get hit on purpose ( kuma was watching the SH fight with Moria and OZ he knows their strength at his level that is basic he saw Zoro's attacks and he knows that his cyborg body could be damaged [we have proof of that with the pacifista fight] i doubt he stood there ready to have a try) because in the picture it sure didn't look that way. Pretty simple Kuma couldn't have dodge that attack .

Mainly in that fight Zoro was running at 30% max so if that attack was 3 or 4 times stronger we know there would be extensive damage. Here is the Big question if Mihawk was in Zoro's shoes how much more damage do you think Kuma would have taken i think for sure it would be life threatening. The point I'm trying to make is Kuma is not in the top tier category and with that fight it clearly shows it. FOR ALL YOU KUMA LOVERS OUT THERE WHO CANT ACCEPT IT WELL YOUR JUST LETTING YOUR FEELINGS GET IN THE WAY TO MAKE A CLEAR JUDGMENT. No offense by the way. That is all I'm going to say about this topic.

 

[Onomatopoeia]

So are you saying Kuma wanted to get hit on purpose ( kuma was watching the SH fight with Moria and OZ he knows their strength at his level that is basic he saw Zoro's attacks and he knows that his cyborg body could be damaged [we have proof of that with the pacifista fight] i doubt he stood there ready to have a try) because in the picture it sure didn't look that way. Pretty simple Kuma couldn't have dodge that attack .

Mainly in that fight Zoro was running at 30% max so if that attack was 3 or 4 times stronger we know there would be extensive damage. Here is the Big question if Mihawk was in Zoro's shoes how much more damage do you think Kuma would have taken i think for sure it would be life threatening. The point I'm trying to make is Kuma is not in the top tier category and with that fight it clearly shows it. FOR ALL YOU KUMA LOVERS OUT THERE WHO CANT ACCEPT IT WELL YOUR JUST LETTING YOUR FEELINGS GET IN THE WAY TO MAKE A CLEAR JUDGMENT. No offense by the way. That is all I'm going to say about this topic.

Exacta!

Kuma saw the fight happen, he knew what the Strawhats were capable together and at full power. We also know that a Pacifista(who I'm 99% sure has a weaker body then Kuma's) body's was only taken down by everyone at full power and together and even then it took forever, we also know that the same Kuma bot could take a combined attack of a 36 Pound Cannon Moutan Jet and get back up again with no real damage and then take a crapload more damage before those attacks landed and after and was still going after taking Asura, Diable Jamble,etc. and even then damaging the SHs to the extreme's which means based on his sluggishness he must have tanked at least 10-15 attacks from each of the Monster Trio. Do you know what that means for Kuma? He could literally tank TB Zoro's attacks for above an hour and be fine.

Your arguement was good until the second paragraph, none of us has said that Kuma>Mihawk. I personally believe the exact opposite, but it is not a huge difference it's probablly bigger then the difference between Ray and Kizaru but not by to much. DON'T TYPE IN CAPS IT MAKES MY EYE'S BLEED.

 

[paradoxe]

I don't think Doflamingo should be lumped into the 'middle' section. Hes been built up to be a pretty nasty character, and we know what happens to nasty charcters don't we? Besides, hes been hyped up, his power seems imbalanced and hes shown to have guts as well (remember how he was messing with some top level marines in their own hq?)

 

[Host Samurai]

I think Kuma really belongs at the top of the Schichibukai because of that what we have seen so far was very impressive.

1. of his body size, people seem to forget that he is a giant with an robotic body!
2. his speed and DF!
3. he possess as an extra Kizaru's beam and he still is an incomplete Pacifista!

And for the fact that will see him again as an perfected Pacifista build by Vegapunk. Kuma can get stronger, now the question is how strong can he become?

This is my rank for the other Schichibukai
Top: Mihawk, Jimbei, Kuma
Middle: Blackbeard, Do Flamingo, Moria
Low: Hancock, Crocodile

Now to Jimbei I put him on the highest tier because he is a fishman and they're phisically stronger than humans. I re-read the Arlong Arc and I remembered why fishman are strong Arlong threw water at Zoro and Sanji and they dashed away! Now imagine a Schichibukai: Jimbei doing this....people will get seriously hurt.

 

[bittman]

Well on the couple of points given on my tiers:
Hancock as low -> Sure, Luffy has powered up with Gear 2 and 3 and would own Crocodile any day of the week nowdays, however what we have seen from Hancock is severely unimpressive. The fact is, with Moria, Luffy had a great amount of assistance from his crew who weakened Moria's forces and even Moria himself slightly (see Robin). However, right now it's Luffy vs entire Kuja crew. I'm not saying Crocodile is as strong as Hancock (though honestly I think he is, we'll never know), but compared to the others she is "low tier".

Moria as middle -> kind of explained above. Moria was also beaten by Nightmare Luffy and re-beaten by gear 2+3 Luffy. Nothing there to me says Luffy > Moria for life.

Doflamingo as middle -> May have been hyped a bit as a villain, but I can't see him as a "end of One Piece boss" whilst the other three are doing a rather good job of looking this way. From the plot view, I expect he won't be comparable to their power but instead someone who continually works behind the shadows.

Kuma as high and even close to Mihawk/Blackbeard -> Though not an "end of One Piece boss", I have this feeling Kuma will become extremely important to the plot in the new world. Between his interactions with the World Government, Sentoumaru and Dr Vegapunk, I have this feeling Kuma will be more powerful than all the other Shichibukai I've named. He may not be as powerful as Mihawk or Blackbeard, but I think it'll be close enough that we'll be having debates similar to Kizaru vs Blackbeard.

 

[Host Samurai]

@bittman: What do you think about Jimbei? Did you forget about him?

But I agree with your Tier except for BB i still have the feeling that he was busy gathering his crew that he didn't have much time to master his DF. For that reason I put him on the middle but he is going to be at the Top that's inevitable because in my eyes BB represents the dark Will of D, that will clash with Luffys.

 

[bittman]

Jimbei -> Well impossible to guess, but if you know how stories usually play out I can see him as middle tier. I expect Jimbei, though a merman who are generally more powerful than humans, will be a middle tier'ed enemy and not someone Luffy will beat. Luffy has already fought 2 Shichibukai (and is now looking down at another) whilst the rest of the crew has been quite content with taking out his minions. Since I expect Luffy to beat Blackbeard and Zoro to beat Mihawk and Kuma I expect Jimbei to round out our Shichibukai defeats with the third monster trio member Sanji. My reasoning is baseless of course, but I could make a joke about Sushi if pressed.

Blackbeard -> I'm not going to press on it too much, as there is a KizaruvBlackbeard thread where I've made many a paragraph concerning his strength. I would put him at the top right now as I think he will be the one to take out Whitebeard, though I would like Aokoji to step in. If not, I do agree with your Luffy V Blackbeard in a clash of D-wills.

 

[RichardMNixon]

I think moria would have stood a better chance of defeating luffy if he had never absorbed all those shadows though. By doing that he turned himself into a massive bullseye for luffy to punch. Also moria in that state was almost like a wild animal. He could barely control himself.

I wish people would stop saying this; he's not an idiot, he wouldn't do something that would make him weaker. He also seemed pretty in control to me when he trapped Luffy in a shadow box. The only problem is he already got the snot punched out of him by nightmare Luffy.

I was thinking he should have used Doppelman, think would Doppel have been supersized as well?

As for tiers, I'd say

Highest: Yonkou, Aokiji, Kizaru, Black Beard, Kuma
High: Mihawk, Flamingo, maybe Kaidou, Garp
Middle: Moria, Jimbei, Lucci
Low: Crocodile, Hancock (so far), Akainu (I've been hoping he's actually weak and rose through ranks by being a brilliant and merciless leader).

Consider why each Schichibukai chose to become one. We know BB did it just to gain power and notoriety, but I don't think Mihawk would have become one if there wasn't someone stronger in the Navy to keep him in check. I also think Shanks would beat Mihawk in a fight to the death with haki or something else, just not in a casual fencing match where Mihawk has superior swordskill.