Izanagi Discussion thread

ashher · Jan 22, 2010

special thanks goes to benelori as i copy-paste my post from his Naruto 479 review... to here:

It seems like Izanagi manipulates reality, but this raises many questions. Reality as Itachi defined it is something that one perceives for his/her own point of view. It was questioned then if it is true reality or not, but the definition is still okay. This time there are more people around, so there are many shared points of view. So their reality is what they are perceiving with their senses. The 5 basic senses(smell, touch, vision, hearing, tasting), or at least a few of them are fooled by Izanagi, cuz the image of Danzou dying is there. Karin said Izanagi is not a genjutsu, because there is no disturbance in the flow of chakra. So the 6th sense in Narutoverse(chakra sensing)is fooled as well. Remembering the definition of reality which I stated before, well...what does Izanagi do exactly? It manipulates, influences the 6 senses, yet there is no sign of it.
Madara says that Izanagi takes control of the users personal reality. That's good, but the user's reality, doesn't just apply to the user, it applies to his enemies as well. That's why I smelled some contradiction here at first, but never mind.
Madara also mentioned dream, which is ultimately another form of reality. So I understand that Izanagi is a jutsu, which puts everybody into a state similar to a dream. Those who saw Danzou die, saw just a dream-like vision, and Danzou himself is able to manipulate the dream, in order to materialize himself whereever he wants.

i won't pretend i understood everything that u said here,but i think u tried to say that izanagi distorts others sense of reality too.
it that is the case,then i would like to say this:

1.itachi's definition about reality isn't for jutsu or battle imo.he was talking phylosophically about reality,so its not relevant here imo.

2.imo,reality=time-space practically.
we sense that with 5senses,shinobis with 6.
so if those senses are altered then it will give wrong impression about time-space=reality.
this is genjutsu.
question is does izangi alters the senses others except the user or not?

2.i thought madara's explanation meant that izanagi turns the 'reality' of the user into genjutsu and vice versa.say danzo puts a tsukiyami on himself,and each time he is killed he is killed in that tsukiyami,so he doesn't die actually(like kakashi didn't when he was killed over and over again)

3.i think the limit of the izanagi is the user's 'body'.he controls what is genjutsu and what is real for his body.so at first death is reality for his body,and life is genjutsu.....and danzo can reverse that.

4.others are out of the genjutsu at first created by izanagi,then turned into reality.so they only see and experience the incongruity in reality time-space.its not that their senses of reality has been altered,rather the reality itself is altered.izanagi is a genjutsu that becomes true,this is really ultimate.

5.to make myself clearer,lets consider this:
*reality=danzo dies
*izanagi genjutsu(dream)=danzo lives

izanagi is so powerful that it exchanges place with reality.so this becomes:
*reality=danzo lives
*izanagi genjutsu(dream)=danzo dies

now the others reality would be like this:
*reality1=danzo dies
*reality2=danzo lives
its not their senses were wrong,they were giving correct info all the time(unlike other genjutus).the fact is that the reality,the real time-space has been altered.

6.so izangai alters reality according to the distortion in the users senses and make it come true,not that it affects others senses to give wrong info like other genjutus including tsukiyami.

It's a really high-level jutsu, but it raises another simple question. If Danzou can affect the reality even if just his own, then why doesn't he transform into something, like a giant monsta and crush Sasuke(see that madara says that objects or attacks can be made real, which logically are not real at first)

this is really a good question....but i wonder whether a man can actually make his senses like that of other creature.for example,say danzo wants to turn into Gamabunta using izanagi.so he will have to create a genjutus that absolutely,accurately is identical of Gama and his senses will have to work exactly like that.just imagining Gama's pic shouldn't be enough.

also unless he can use izanagi to be back to normal before the time runs out,he will stuck with that.

i think he is using the most rudimentary and easiest form of izanagi,as he is actually merely appearing at recent previous place and condition or something very close to it.that is easiest because he already knows the infos about that type of place and condition accurately and so all he has to do is to use that info with izanagi and he just goes there in that previous condition.

a related thought

perhaps madara does use izanagi to alter his body's placement,action,events and constituency at will.
all the things done by madara can be explained this way:

1.he creates an illusion of phasing body and that becomes true.

2.he creates an illusion of being somewhere and that happens

3.he creates an illusion of iron-hand and that happens and stops swords.

4.also note that he does all these without his eyes going ms,like izanagi which isn't a ms.

if so then,he is unbelievably strong with greater mastery at izangi than danzo,so his eye doesn't close.

comparing between danzo's and madara's(!) izanagi:

however,i think both danzo and madara has pushed boundaries of izanagi.as danzo has such a great supply of sharingans(all of uchiha)he concentrated on improving the duration of izanagi,and from the 'shortest of moment'(a nano/pico second maybe) to full 60 second for each eye.

on the other hand,it seems that madara has only one eye left and he can used izanagi without seals at moments notice,that is the improvement he made besides being able to use izanagi without sacrificing the eye(perhaps that is the secret of ms that he kept away from itachi)

maaghms · Jan 22, 2010