and that punch left zero damage an Jacob, yet punches from both him and Jacob hurt Natsu, that is a fact, a single punch sent Natsu flying and left noticeable damage on him as well, no difference there. Kyria is already weaker so that makes little difference., you are only comparing to a weakened Natsu which is not impressive. your points are invalid unless you can compare them to things that are impressive and don't contradict anything else.
and that punch left zero damage an Jacob, yet punches from both him and Jacob hurt Natsu, that is a fact, a single punch sent Natsu flying and left noticeable damage on him as well, no difference there. Kyria is already weaker so that makes little difference., you are only comparing to a weakened Natsu which is not impressive. your points are invalid unless you can compare them to things that are impressive and don't contradict anything else.
Makarov's punch floored Jacob. It was stronger than Natsu and Lucy's combo kick, and even that hurt Jacob. Jacobs punches barely did any damage to Natsu or Lucy, and Makarov's single punch basically did what took Jacob 15 hits to do. Kyria's roar does objectively more damage to Lucy than the combined total of Jacob's attacks. Just because Natsu is low on magic power, it doesn't mean that it's easy to knock him out. It doesn't even mean Natsu is weaker than other characters. A "weakened" Natsu's thought projection is still being scaled to Madmole in terms of strength, and Madmole is still considered strong. Don't just take my word for it. Take Mirajane's.
Again, I ask you guys: Just how exhausted do you think Natsu was after fighting Gajeel? It couldn't possibly have been worse than after he fought Zeref. Natsu went on to fight Acnologia after that, and he was still capable of blocking a blast from Acnologia. Granted Acnologia was just playing around, and by no means am I suggesting that Wraith's attack had more power than a serious attack by Acnologia, but any attack that knocks out Natsu is respectable.
Jacob's punch floored Natsu too, so he was stronger than Natsu and Lucy combo kicks, and yet there was no damage on Jacob form Makarov's punch. and objectively, Kyria is weaker as she lost to Erza without hax. It doesn't matter, it is a matter of overall performance, not just a small piece of it. no magic natsu is on the same level as Madmole who Natsu is far stronger who could not beat spriggans in base mode (besides Neinhart) Mira is not going all out, that is how she works. He was almost out of magic power and is breathing heavily and injured, it is far worse than when fighting Zeref as he still has plenty of Magic power. and Natsu had Wendy to back him up with Enhancements.
Jacob's punch floored Natsu too, so he was stronger than Natsu and Lucy combo kicks, and yet there was no damage on Jacob form Makarov's punch. and objectively, Kyria is weaker as she lost to Erza without hax. It doesn't matter, it is a matter of overall performance, not just a small piece of it. no magic natsu is on the same level as Madmole who Natsu is far stronger who could not beat spriggans in base mode (besides Neinhart) Mira is not going all out, that is how she works. He was almost out of magic power and is breathing heavily and injured, it is far worse than when fighting Zeref as he still has plenty of Magic power. and Natsu had Wendy to back him up with Enhancements.
The feats performed against Zeref at the end and Acnologia are not done by Natsu using the power available to him in the base form. He used three modes which aren't his base form. One is Dragon Force , second is Savage Flames of Emotions , and third was Seven Dragon Slayers mode. His MP abnormally increases in Dragon Force , it's wayy above his base form. Savage Flames Of Emotions are literally his emotions being converted into magic , not his residual magic power. Like you know , the guild converted their emotions into the Fairy Sphere and blocked full power Acnologia's roar , several dragons converted their emotions into power and made a weapon capable of destroying Ishgar in an instant. Third was Seven Dragon Slayers mode , where he contributed his magic power , but that was not it , he received help from 6 others too.
The point Axiom is making is Natsu has enough durability to at least withstand Acnologia's attack. That has got nothing to do with magic power. MP and durability don't go hand in hand. Like , Irene has enormous MP yet she gets damaged by a simple slash from enchanted Erza. Remember Natsu didn't even use his FDK demolition fist against Gajeel , let alone Dragon Force ( which he can't activate at will ) , and Savage Flames of Emotions is just completely out of the discussion. You simply can't compare base Natsu to the insane powerups he received in his fight against Zeref and Acnologia. You can't compare his MP at all. BUT yes , you CAN compare his durability , since it basically remains the same.
Natsu's durability correlates to the amount of MP he has. Without his MP his durability is that of a regular human. Taking out Natsu with barely any MP is not impressive. Y'all wanking Wraith when he got stomped by basic punches by Natsu while Jacob stomped Base Natsu while he was using fire.
And no, I never said Jacob's attacks are on par with Mercphobia, I said Merc failed to KO Lucy which is true and Acno also failed to KO Cobra who's weaker than Lucy. Does that make Kyria stronger than God tier bcs she took out people they failed to KO? Does that make Wraith stronger than Acno? No. The same goes for Jacob. Freaking Cana came out with barely any damage against August and y'all trying to act like Jacob's attack power was weak? Get real, S12 are way above the DEs. Wall would have f-ed Laxus if he spammed his fireball or just dropped ETHERION, Kryia can't even scratch Laxus. God Serena at fraction his power gave Gild a bloody lip.
Brandish crapped on Skulluon's hax and Skullion destroyed Gray without Gray even getting a scratch on him.
This just shows they weren't ready for the S12s. Several could solo the guild, and it's funny they are downplay when they shown way stronger abilities than the DEs got.
Also Natsu used FoE against all those opponents he was "tired" against, he was not charged up with nakama power when he faced Wraith and he needed to KOed so his soul got stolen and he could get soul form.
DEs are in inbetween below average S12 and average S12 level. Stronger than Neinheart weaker than Wall.
Natsu's durability correlates to the amount of MP he has. Without his MP his durability is that of a regular human. Taking out Natsu with barely any MP is not impressive. Y'all wanking Wraith when he got stomped by basic punches by Natsu while Jacob stomped Base Natsu while he was using fire.
And no, I never said Jacob's attacks are on par with Mercphobia, I said Merc failed to KO Lucy which is true and Acno also failed to KO Cobra who's weaker than Lucy. Does that make Kyria stronger than God tier bcs she took out people they failed to KO? Does that make Wraith stronger than Acno? No. The same goes for Jacob. Freaking Cana came out with barely any damage against August and y'all trying to act like Jacob's attack power was weak? Get real, S12 are way above the DEs. Wall would have f-ed Laxus if he spammed his fireball or just dropped ETHERION, Kryia can't even scratch Laxus. God Serena at fraction his power gave Gild a bloody lip.
Brandish crapped on Skulluon's hax and Skullion destroyed Gray without Gray even getting a scratch on him.
This just shows they weren't ready for the S12s. Several could solo the guild, and it's funny they are downplay when they shown way stronger abilities than the DEs got.
Also Natsu used FoE against all those opponents he was "tired" against, he was not charged up with nakama power when he faced Wraith and he needed to KOed so his soul got stolen and he could get soul form.
DEs are in inbetween below average S12 and average S12 level. Stronger than Neinheart weaker than Wall.
I actually never said that DE's are stronger than Spriggans , imo Spriggans are horribly downplayed on this forum. But I've to disagree about the durability thing.
What makes you say durability is directly related to the amount of MP you have ? Any reasons ? Because Brandish's MP practically dwarfs everyone in the guild except may be Gildarts , and yet she was KOed by Cana.
I actually never said that DE's are stronger than Spriggans , imo Spriggans are horribly downplayed on this forum. But I've to disagree about the durability thing.
What makes you say durability is directly related to the amount of MP you have ? Any reasons ? Because Brandish's MP practically dwarfs everyone in the guild except may be Gildarts , and yet she was KOed by Cana.
For Natsu his durability comes with his MP. When he had magic sealing cuffs on he could break out of that vodoo dude's grip in the Avtar arc and when he was exhausted after the Hades fight he was going to die from a fall if Lucy didn't save him. Also everytime he got a boost in MP his stats doubled as well. LFD, Ig boost, and DF are prime examples of this.
For Natsu his durability comes with his MP. When he had magic sealing cuffs on he could break out of that vodoo dude's grip in the Avtar arc and when he was exhausted after the Hades fight he was going to die from a fall if Lucy didn't save him. Also everytime he got a boost in MP his stats doubled as well. LFD, Ig boost, and DF are prime examples of this.
Well , there are other examples of this. Brandish has enormous MP yet she gets damaged by a knife from Dimaria. Enhanced Neinhart's MP was greater than Brandish , whose MP in turn dwarfed Natsu , yet Neinhart got two shotted by Natsu , signifying shit durability. Irene's MP practically dwarfed everyone known in the series till the last arc except for Acno , Igneel , Zeref , DF and FoE Natsu , Animus and August ; yet she was damaged by a slash from enchanted Erza. Larcade's MP dwarfed Gildarts , Laxus as well as the other Spriggans excluding Irene and August , yet he got KOed by WSD Sting. Invel got taken down by a non magic punch from human Gray , who wasn't in demon mode. Heck , Mard Geer would take Dimaria's knife if he was hit in a similar fashion as Brandish. ( Obviously , in a similar fashion , not saying he would survive getting his head chopped off )
So , I don't really think so. I agree about everything else you said though. In Natsu's case your logic is applicable I think.
Natsu's durability correlates to the amount of MP he has. Without his MP his durability is that of a regular human. Taking out Natsu with barely any MP is not impressive. Y'all wanking Wraith when he got stomped by basic punches by Natsu while Jacob stomped Base Natsu while he was using fire.
And no, I never said Jacob's attacks are on par with Mercphobia, I said Merc failed to KO Lucy which is true and Acno also failed to KO Cobra who's weaker than Lucy. Does that make Kyria stronger than God tier bcs she took out people they failed to KO? Does that make Wraith stronger than Acno? No. The same goes for Jacob. Freaking Cana came out with barely any damage against August and y'all trying to act like Jacob's attack power was weak? Get real, S12 are way above the DEs. Wall would have f-ed Laxus if he spammed his fireball or just dropped ETHERION, Kryia can't even scratch Laxus. God Serena at fraction his power gave Gild a bloody lip.
Brandish crapped on Skulluon's hax and Skullion destroyed Gray without Gray even getting a scratch on him.
This just shows they weren't ready for the S12s. Several could solo the guild, and it's funny they are downplay when they shown way stronger abilities than the DEs got.
Also Natsu used FoE against all those opponents he was "tired" against, he was not charged up with nakama power when he faced Wraith and he needed to KOed so his soul got stolen and he could get soul form.
DE are in inbetween below average S12 and average S12 level. Stronger than Neinheart weaker than Wall.
Cana came out unscathed from August because Gildarts put himself on the line to protect her.
Laxus played Wahl like a fiddle their whole fight despite dying of magic cancer and Wahl being immune to his magic. He then promptly killed Wahl the moment he no longer needed him. Wahl is fodder to Laxus, literal fodder, as is Ajeel and most other Spriggans, he can kill their like with a single attack. Just to give Laxus' fight tension Mashima had to write in not one, but two handicaps that he kept repeating over and over again to make sure the readers knew how nerfed he was. The very fact that Kyria is not currently dead after her skirmish with Laxus puts her above the average Spriggan. If she actually manages to put up a fight then she is well above.
Brandish didn’t do anything to Skullions hax.
Spriggans aren’t downplayed, they are seen for what they are, disappointing weaklings well below most FT top tiers.
Natsu's durability correlates to the amount of MP he has. Without his MP his durability is that of a regular human. Taking out Natsu with barely any MP is not impressive. Y'all wanking Wraith when he got stomped by basic punches by Natsu while Jacob stomped Base Natsu while he was using fire.
And no, I never said Jacob's attacks are on par with Mercphobia, I said Merc failed to KO Lucy which is true and Acno also failed to KO Cobra who's weaker than Lucy. Does that make Kyria stronger than God tier bcs she took out people they failed to KO? Does that make Wraith stronger than Acno? No. The same goes for Jacob. Freaking Cana came out with barely any damage against August and y'all trying to act like Jacob's attack power was weak? Get real, S12 are way above the DEs. Wall would have f-ed Laxus if he spammed his fireball or just dropped ETHERION, Kryia can't even scratch Laxus. God Serena at fraction his power gave Gild a bloody lip.
Brandish crapped on Skulluon's hax and Skullion destroyed Gray without Gray even getting a scratch on him.
This just shows they weren't ready for the S12s. Several could solo the guild, and it's funny they are downplay when they shown way stronger abilities than the DEs got.
Also Natsu used FoE against all those opponents he was "tired" against, he was not charged up with nakama power when he faced Wraith and he needed to KOed so his soul got stolen and he could get soul form.
DEs are in inbetween below average S12 and average S12 level. Stronger than Neinheart weaker than Wall.
Natsu's durability, and physicality in general, is a product of his dragon slaying magic. He needs a certain level of magic to maintain that magic, but beyond that his physical strength and durability is pretty much the same. Dragon Force is the only thing that increases his physicality. Everything else is just him making his flames hotter.
Wraith was never stomped by Natsu, and Natsu was never stomped by Jacob. At best you can say Wraith thought he was outclassed by Natsu, but he was far from actually defeated. Natsu was holding back pretty much the entire fight, and then proceeded to stomp Jacob (an actual stomp where he actually defeats the the opponent) the moment he cut loose. If Natsu was stomped by Jacob, then what in the world do we call Gajeel's performance against Natsu? Natsu is barely even compromised after having fought and knocked out Jacob cold. Natsu is exhausted and almost out of magic after "beating" Gajeel, and he didn't really knock out Gajeel.....and here's the thing, Natsu was winning against Gajeel.
The water pillars were just things he spammed all over the city, and it didn't look like any of them hit Lucy and the team directly. When Mercphobia actually puts any effort into an attack, he could suck Natsu into a whirlpool that would have drowned him. There was so much magic power in that attack that Lucy couldn't even move under it's pressure. This is what Mercphobia can do if he actually takes things seriously. Same with Acnologia. Acnologia was playing around with the dragon slayers. He even said that he had barely begun to start fighting. He had the power to rip their guts out like he did with God Serena, but he needed them alive. So no, Kyria or Wraith aren't stronger than Acnologia or Mercphobia. However it is perfectly legitimate to say Kyria's roar did more damage than the water pillar to Lucy (assuming it was a direct hit), and Wraith's attack did more damage than Acnologia's finger blast to Natsu.
August only ever hit Cana once during the entire fight, and it wasn't exactly with an impressive attack. It's not like August hit Cana with his melt nuke or what he used to take down Jellal's group. Besides, Gildarts was literally jumping in front of her to shield her from the attacks that would utterly wreck her. If August had poked her with his staff, there would be hole in her chest. She'd probably be dead. So no, we wouldn't say that August had bad attack power based on the fact that Cana was okay. Mainly because August didn't really hit Cana with anything of substance.
Jacob's attack power is weak. There is quite literally nothing that is impressive about any of his attacks. It can't really hurt Natsu. Same with Lucy. It can't even take out Mirajane when she doesn't use any of her takeovers.
Cana came out unscathed from August because Gildarts put himself on the line to protect her.
Laxus played Wahl like a fiddle their whole fight despite dying of magic cancer and Wahl being immune to his magic. He then promptly killed Wahl the moment he no longer needed him. Wahl is fodder to Laxus, literal fodder, as is Ajeel and most other Spriggans, he can kill their like with a single attack. Just to give Laxus' fight tension Mashima had to write in not one, but two handicaps that he kept repeating over and over again to make sure the readers knew how nerfed he was. The very fact that Kyria is not currently dead after her skirmish with Laxus puts her above the average Spriggan. If she actually manages to put up a fight then she is well above.
Brandish didn’t do anything to Skullions hax.
Spriggans aren’t downplayed, they are seen for what they are, disappointing weaklings well below most FT top tiers.
Cobra is fodder. He has zero feats that even puts him on Wendy's level.
Cana got hit by multiple attacks from August, one while he coated himself in meteor.
Laxus would have died if Wall was actually went heartless mode instead of pulling the cliche villain monologue then went clinically retarded bcs his personality setting went haywire. Nope, Wall was beating Laxus ass before his illness acted up and he didn't even use assualt mode. He then made Laxus sweat bullets from the fireball attack, the same fireball attack that conveniently missed him despite Wall making a 400km shot. Laxus would have died to Etherion and was sweating bullets to a fireball Wall pulled out, which means Laxus knew he could've been severly hurt or killed. Wall literally sits there and lets Laxus hit him. Laxus had two handicaps? Wall had to go stupid and miss every lethal attack bcs he was handicapped by plot. Laxus still has nothing on Etherion. No, it doesn't. Laxus needed his strongest attack to finish Wall off lmao and Wall had to sit there and take it in order for it to make contact.
Brandish negated it, do you need to reread the chapter were she saved Gray who was turning into ash?
Spriggans are definitely downplayed. Dissappointing weakling yet several could have soloed if not for plot? August solo, Irene solo, DiMaria solo, Jacob solo, and Brandish solo. You guys try to bring bs like scaling END time resistance which is an ability to Laxus who has never shown any resistance high tier hax like time manipulation. The S12s are much stronger threat than the DEs and that is showing when Wraith was basically wanking off Makarov who who was fodder to the S12s and Brandish shrugged off Skullion's attack that fodderize Gray like nothing.
I forget who saved Team Natsu from miles away while chilling? Oh yeah, Brandish. Who can't even scratch Laxus? Oh yeah Kyria. Who could have killed Laxus if not for plot armor? Oh Wall.
Showing me something on Etherion's level that Laxus has? Oh wait nothing.
Natsu's durability, and physicality in general, is a product of his dragon slaying magic. He needs a certain level of magic to maintain that magic, but beyond that his physical strength and durability is pretty much the same. Dragon Force is the only thing that increases his physicality. Everything else is just him making his flames hotter.
Wraith was never stomped by Natsu, and Natsu was never stomped by Jacob. At best you can say Wraith thought he was outclassed by Natsu, but he was far from actually defeated. Natsu was holding back pretty much the entire fight, and then proceeded to stomp Jacob (an actual stomp where he actually defeats the the opponent) the moment he cut loose. If Natsu was stomped by Jacob, then what in the world do we call Gajeel's performance against Natsu? Natsu is barely even compromised after having fought and knocked out Jacob cold. Natsu is exhausted and almost out of magic after "beating" Gajeel, and he didn't really knock out Gajeel.....and here's the thing, Natsu was winning against Gajeel.
The water pillars were just things he spammed all over the city, and it didn't look like any of them hit Lucy and the team directly. When Mercphobia actually puts any effort into an attack, he could suck Natsu into a whirlpool that would have drowned him. There was so much magic power in that attack that Lucy couldn't even move under it's pressure. This is what Mercphobia can do if he actually takes things seriously. Same with Acnologia. Acnologia was playing around with the dragon slayers. He even said that he had barely begun to start fighting. He had the power to rip their guts out like he did with God Serena, but he needed them alive. So no, Kyria or Wraith aren't stronger than Acnologia or Mercphobia. However it is perfectly legitimate to say Kyria's roar did more damage than the water pillar to Lucy (assuming it was a direct hit), and Wraith's attack did more damage than Acnologia's finger blast to Natsu.
August only ever hit Cana once during the entire fight, and it wasn't exactly with an impressive attack. It's not like August hit Cana with his melt nuke or what he used to take down Jellal's group. Besides, Gildarts was literally jumping in front of her to shield her from the attacks that would utterly wreck her. If August had poked her with his staff, there would be hole in her chest. She'd probably be dead. So no, we wouldn't say that August had bad attack power based on the fact that Cana was okay. Mainly because August didn't really hit Cana with anything of substance.
Jacob's attack power is weak. There is quite literally nothing that is impressive about any of his attacks. It can't really hurt Natsu. Same with Lucy. It can't even take out Mirajane when she doesn't use any of her takeovers.
Bro DF is the only physicslity boost? Um what? LFD Natsu boosted his stats to the point he blitzed Hades. Igneel power boosted his stats to fight on par with Zeref. Second Origin increased his MP only and his stats were boosted by it. His MP is correlated with his strength and this shown several times. Dragon Force is activated by Magical Power.
Ran to Makarov bcs he was getting beat by regular no flamed Natsu punches yet he wasn't getting stomped? Merc's attacks indirect or not are stronger than Kyria's...Plus the attacks land hits on them and no one was hurt.
Gray even freezes one of his attacks lol. But again it does not matter if the attack is indirect or not, Merc failed to KO anyone team Natsu thus he is fodder by your logic. Acno failed to KO them thus he is fodder by your logic. Doesn't matter if he's playing around or not. And do you think a playing around Acno is weaker than Kyria? Nope, by your logic they KOed people Acno couldn't. By your logic Acno didn't KO no one in FT including fodder tier characters. GS stronger than Wendy? But how? He was oneshotted by a weaker Acno and Wendy wasn't even KOed by RoT Acno? By all means Wendy is stronger bcs she wasn't killed. By your logic Acno is weaker than Wraith and Kyria since he couldn't KO a tired Natsu or Wendy. Where do you think that FT characters are going to die? Do you think the enemy will defeat them if they are going to die if they lose? If Jacob KOed Lucy the entire guild would be dead.
And yet those same basic attack f-ed over the entire Crime Sorcerer and since when was meteor a basic attack? August hit Cana with a magically empowered attack. Anything coming out of August staff is stronger than anything Laxus or Jellal can produce. He used Jellal's own spell and it failed to do sufficient damage to Cana. Also that attack hurt Gild and he beat Gild up using just basic punches and staff attack as well. Guess Cana is stronger than the entire CS bcs they got utterly humiliated by August yet Can was fine and didn't need recovery like Jellal?
Base Natsu failed to harm him without entering FDKM or using Lucy's power on top of his own. He was manhandle in H2H with the help of Lucy as well yet you try to wank Wraith who got beat by Base Natsu not even using fire? He can't really hurt Natsu yet Natsu was shown to be in pain and was getting hurt by Jacob's attacks.... He also called Jacob tough which you completely ignore but like to bring up when he called Madmole strong.
Laxus would have died if Wall was actually went heartless mode instead of pulling the cliche villain monologue then went clinically retarded bcs his personality setting went haywire. Nope, Wall was beating Laxus ass before his illness acted up and he didn't even use assualt mode. He then made Laxus sweat bullets from the fireball attack, the same fireball attack that conveniently missed him despite Wall making a 400km shot. Laxus would have died to Etherion and was sweating bullets to a fireball Wall pulled out, which means Laxus knew he could've been severly hurt or killed. Wall literally sits there and lets Laxus hit him. Laxus had two handicaps? Wall had to go stupid and miss every lethal attack bcs he was handicapped by plot. Laxus still has nothing on Etherion. No, it doesn't. Laxus needed his strongest attack to finish Wall off lmao and Wall had to sit there and take it in order for it to make contact.
No, Laxus would have killed Wahl with a single attack if Mashima didn't feel the need to make the fight difficult for him. Mashima made it clear over and over again, Wahl wasn't the threat, magic cancer and lightning immunity were the threat. None of the usual Spriggan monologue of how much stronger they are than their foe, none of it. Instead what was repeated over and over again was that Wahl was immune to lightning and that magic cancer was killing Laxus from the inside. Wahl was literal fodder to Laxus, the only reason he survived more than a second was because Laxus needed him to. Doesn't matter what attacks Wahl had, Laxus could have ended the fight the moment it began. Laxus literally runs circles around Wahl, making an enchantment while simultaneously kicking Wahl's ass.
Brandish negated it, do you need to reread the chapter were she saved Gray who was turning into ash?
Spriggans are definitely downplayed. Dissappointing weakling yet several could have soloed if not for plot? August solo, Irene solo, DiMaria solo, Jacob solo, and Brandish solo. You guys try to bring bs like scaling END time resistance which is an ability to Laxus who has never shown any resistance high tier hax like time manipulation. The S12s are much stronger threat than the DEs and that is showing when Wraith was basically wanking off Makarov who who was fodder to the S12s and Brandish shrugged off Skullion's attack that fodderize Gray like nothing.
Soloed who? FT fodders? Meh. Most FT top tiers massacre spriggans. Spriggans constantly need the plot to favor them just to have them survive more than a second. Laxus doesn't even need time resistance to beat Dimaria(though he's above Chronos so he easily walks through it), Laxus looks at Dimaria and she dies. Not kidding, he merely looks her way and a bolt of lightning erases her from existence. It only took two punches from END to put Dimaria down, punches Gray can match equally.
I forget who saved Team Natsu from miles away while chilling? Oh yeah, Brandish. Who can't even scratch Laxus? Oh yeah Kyria. Who could have killed Laxus if not for plot armor? Oh Wall.
Bro DF is the only physicslity boost? Um what? LFD Natsu boosted his stats to the point he blitzed Hades. Igneel power boosted his stats to fight on par with Zeref. Second Origin increased his MP only and his stats were boosted by it. His MP is correlated with his strength and this shown several times. Dragon Force is activated by Magical Power.
Ran to Makarov bcs he was getting beat by regular no flamed Natsu punches yet he wasn't getting stomped? Merc's attaxks indirect or not are stronger than Kyria's... Again it does not matter if the attack is indirect or not Merc failed to KO anyone team Natsu thus he is fodder by your logic. Acno failed to KO them thus he is fodder by your logic. Doesn't matter if he's playing around or not. And do you think a playing around Acno is weaker than Kyria? Nope, by your logic they KOed people Acno couldn't. By your logic Acno didn't KO no one in FT including fodder tier characters. GS stronger than Wendy? But how? He was oneshotted by a weaker Acno yet than Wendy wasn't even KOed by Acno? By your logic Acno is weaker than Wraith and Kyria since he couldn't KO a tired Natsu or Wendy. So again where do you think that FT characters are going to die? If Jacob KOed Lucy the entire guild would be dead.
And yet those same basic attack f-ed over the entire Crime Sorcerer and since when was meteor a basic attack? August hit Cana with a magically empowered attack. Anything coming out of August staff is stronger than anything Laxus or Jellal can produce. He used Jellal's own spell and it failed to do sufficient damage to Cana. Also that attack hurt Gild and he beat Gild up using just basic punches and staff attack as well. Guess Cana is stronger than the entire CS bcs they got utterly humiliated by August yet Can was fine and didn't need recovery like Jellal?
Base Natsu failed to harm him without entering FDKM or using Lucy's power on top of his own. He was manhandle in H2H with the help of Lucy as well yet you try to wank Wraith who got beat by Base Natsu not even using fire? He can't really hurt Natsu yet Natsu was shown to be in pain and was getting hurt by Jacob's attacks.... He also called Jacob tough which you completely ignore but like to bring up when he called Madmole strong.
Yes, Dragon Force is the only form that boosts Natsu's physicality. LFD doesn't actually make Natsu any faster than what he's shown before. He could already land hits on Hades even before LFD. They just weren't very effective. Igneel's power made Natsu's flames stronger, which made his attacks more powerful. In terms of durability, it didn't make his body any tougher than what he can do in base. Second origin just increased Natsu's magic power. Madmole and Natsu are basically on the same level when it comes to strength even when Natsu is on a full tank. We know this because when Natsu clashes his iron fist with Madmole's steel fist, their attack power is fairly equal. The fact that Wraith is still comparing Natsu's strength to Madmole means that Natsu is still operating, more or less, at this level.
Wraith was never stomped by Natsu. Stomped implies that Wraith was actually defeated, or at least heavily damaged. Wraith isn't defeated and he is still in relatively good shape. At most, he realized he was outclassed by the strength of Natsu's thought projection, and decided he needed to possess someone to beat Natsu. We don't know how good of a fight Wraith could put up if he stood his ground, because he simply never tried.
Just because you are stronger than someone, it doesn't mean every single one of your attacks is better. Mercphobia being stronger than Kyria doesn't mean that everyone of his attacks does more damage than Kyria's roar. If Mercphobia's water pillar didn't knock out Lucy while Kyria's roar did, then that simply means Kyria's roar did more damage than the water pillar. That doesn't mean Kyria has better attack power than Mercphobia overall, because those water pillars weren't Mercphobia's strongest attack. They are actually just a fraction of his overall barrage against Elmina. Mercphobia has stronger attacks. His whirlpool would have killed Natsu if not for Ignia. Likewise, it's not that Acnologia couldn't knock any of the dragon slayers out. I've already explained that Acnologia could rip everyone's guts out like he did with God Serena. He opted not to because he needed the Dragon Slayers alive. It's not that Acnologia failed to knock out anyone. It's that he didn't even try to. Nowhere in any of this have I implied that Kyria or Wraith are stronger than Acnologia. If Acnologia was serious against the 7 dragon slayers, he would simply kill them all. Also, Wendy is not on God Serena's level. Wendy was pinned by Bluenote, and Bluenote is on Jura's level at best. God Serena wipes the floor with at least 4 wizards on the level of Jura.
August wasn't just using his basic attacks against Jellal's group. He was using his large AOE spells like when he copied Midnight's spiral pain. Jellal was very much in the fight during this attack. Midnight, Cobra, and Racer were also still standing when this attack was launched, meaning the hand to hand attacks prior didn't take them out. By no means does the one hit Cana took from August scale her above the entirety of Crime Sorcerer. Again with Cana, Gildarts very clearly blocked an attack that would have killed Cana. Meteor has always been a basic attack, even for Jellal. It's not a finisher like Grand Chariot or Sema.
Natsu was holding back against Jacob when he was inside the guild. We know this because Makarov punched hard enough to send Jacob flying off into the distance. Natsu could oneshot people on Makarov's level with the roar that he used against Bluenote, and he simply didn't use attacks of this level against Jacob. All Natsu had to do to send Jacob flying is use his high-end punches.
I don't ignore the fact that Natsu called Jacob tough, but honestly....Look at his expression. He's got a goofy smile on his face when he says that Jacob is tough. Compare that to when he says that Madmole is strong. His demeanor is completely different. With Madmole, this is also coming off the back of the fact that Madmole had just no-sold his demolition fist.
DF also boosts his magic as well especially since he eats special flames or magic, Natsu just doesn’t want Jacob to wreck the guild hall, even then Jacob is still far above that of base Natsu. It does matter especially with how magic power works, especially when those water pillars did not hit Lucy directly there is a difference, you should learn it. Also Madmole was just taking advantage of Natsu’s weakness and was easily oneshotted later with minimal effort.
DF also boosts his magic as well especially since he eats special flames or magic, Natsu just doesn’t want Jacob to wreck the guild hall, even then Jacob is still far above that of base Natsu. It does matter especially with how magic power works, especially when those water pillars did not hit Lucy directly there is a difference, you should learn it. Also Madmole was just taking advantage of Natsu’s weakness and was easily oneshotted later with minimal effort.
Sure, dragon force may boost magical power. I'm not saying dragon force doesn't also boost Natsu's magical power. I'm saying it's the only form that Natsu has that increases his physical stats.
If you don't believe Mercphobia's pillars hit Lucy directly, then there's your answer for why it didn't hurt Lucy as much as Kyria's roar did. In any case, Mercphobia has other attacks that are stronger than his water pillars (which is just a portion of his overall barrage of attacks against Elmina in the first place) that are stronger than Kyria's roars.
Natsu made the comment about Madmole's strength before his motion kicked in. Not only that, but Madmole's strength rival's Natsu even when Natsu has most of his magic power. The fact that Natsu's strength is still being compared to Madmole's strength tells us that being low on magical power didn't really diminish that strength. Natsu never oneshotted Madmole. You can't hit someone multiple times and have them get back up....and still call it a oneshot.
Physical effort also has magic power, that is a known fact as well, even mode changes would increase strength as well, to what degree that is a subject of debate. Unlike Merc, Kyria’s attacks did hit her. Which was immediately irrelevant in later chapters as no magic Natsu is on Madmole’s level and he even did not remember them. Low magic does make a difference especially when. Madmole did not beat Natsu with his own efforts and just used his weakness.
Base Natsu uses high end punches against fodder, but not an S12... The downplay
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Cobra tanking Acno's attacks lmfao...and he was down on the floor after August smacked him with his staff. Asuka could've tanked that same Acno's attacks if we be real here. Why? Bcs she wasn't going to die with that plot armor on.
Physical effort also has magic power, that is a known fact as well, even mode changes would increase strength as well, to what degree that is a subject of debate. Unlike Merc, Kyria’s attacks did hit her. Which was immediately irrelevant in later chapters as no magic Natsu is on Madmole’s level and he even did not remember them. Low magic does make a difference especially when. Madmole did not beat Natsu with his own efforts and just used his weakness.
Like I've said, Natsu and Madmole's strength were equal when they clashed attacks earlier with their iron fist and steel fists. They are still equal now that Natsu is nearly out of magic power. To say that Natsu with no magic is equal with Madmole is nonsense when Madmole clearly has attacks that can rival Natsu's magical attacks. Even if you think Natsu is much stronger when he is at a full tank, which fair enough I can agree with that for the sake of argument, Madmole is still considered strong by Mirajane.
Jko was trying to make the argument that it doesn't make sense to rank attacks based off the damage they do to their opponents (which at face value just sounds silly) because that would mean Mercphobia is weaker than Kyria based on the water pillars not doing as much damage as Kyria's roar. If you don't believe that Mercphobia's water pillars landed directly on Lucy, then that explains why it doesn't do as much damage to Lucy as Kyria's roar despite being a stronger attack. You have just made my point for me, and you don't even realize it. In any case it doesn't matter whether or not Mercphobia's water pillars are stronger than Kyria's roars or not, because Mercphobia has other attacks that are stronger than both the water pillars and the roar.
Nobody is saying that Madmole beat Natsu by his own efforts. The entire point is a comparison of Natsu's reaction to Madmole's strength versus Jacob's. With Jacob, Natsu had a goofy smile on his face and didn't look at all troubled. WIth Madmole, Natsu is clearly not smiling and somewhat taken aback. His demeanor is entirely different. The motion sickness is completely irrelevant, as it only kicked in after Natsu already noted Madmole for his strength.
I don't see why that is an issue. Natsu wanted to lure Zeref out, so obviously he needed to do stuff to get his attention. Natsu ended up using an FDK roar against that Alvarez army, which is honestly one of his most impressive feats without a power-up. That army is the same army that kept the entire Fairy Tail guild occupied. Gildarts used this attack in an attempt to clear the army, and there was still more. So I don't see why Natsu wouldn't use his high ends against this army. At the end of the day, none of the punches Natsu landed on Jacob was as strong as Makarov's punch. Unless you think Natsu can't punch as hard as Makarov with the punch I showed in my previous post, then he simply didn't go all out against Jacob. Keep in mind that Natsu has roars that could oneshot Bluenote, who is in the ballpark of Makarov.
He was in trouble with Jacob, even then Natsu had a goofy face with Madmole as well, the difference between the two is that Nstsu forgot about Madmole while Nstsu did not make such a thing. Even then It is confirmed in the chapter that no magic Natsu is on the same level as Madmole, that makes the battle before show Natsu did not have significant power behind his magic attacks in comparison to his physical efforts.
Hmm, no he used that as a fodder attack, he wasn't wasting power until big guns got out.
Bigger =/= Better or High End.
Makarov's punch didn't hurt Jacob...How do we know? Bcs it didn't put a scratch on him so no Natsu's punches delivered more damage. Launching = jack squat if no damage has been done.
Makarov's punch also hurt Natsu in the latest chapter and you argue MP as nothing to do with stats so...yeah.
Natsu needed to use FDKM to beat Jacob and no, he didn't treat fodder as a higher threat than a Spriggan 12. Ridiculous downplay to think fodder are treated as higher threat level than a S12.
