Fantasy Jellal vs Gray

Who wins?


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Ramen

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Alvaress Gray was far stronger than Jellal. Current Gray didn't still show his climax power level. Only Natsu did currently. We still have to see Gray and Erza's climax as well to make analogy with Alvaress.

As Gray won a battle vs Elfman and Mirajane (both exaust), I put that feat above Jellal actual power on current feat.
I love when people say this to try and make excuses. He's been in many fights to show his power.....you can't expect some next-level power from someone who doesn't have it. We've literally seen Erza fight an all-out fight against Laxus lol.


I guess Gray forgot to use this special power against Skullion lol
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

For me, beating Mirajane + Elfman is a stronger feat than Natsu beating Gajeel as a rematch.
Healthy ISD Gajeel >> Fatigued Mira and Elfman lol what?
 

Ronin31

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I love when people say this to try and make excuses. He's been in many fights to show his power.....you can't expect some next-level power from someone who doesn't have it. We've literally seen Erza fight an all-out fight against Laxus lol.


I guess Gray forgot to use this special power against Skullion lol
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---



Healthy ISD Gajeel >> Fatigued Mira and Elfman lol what?
1 - Have you seen Current Gray at the same level he was vs END ? He still potentially can but not as will. He needs circumstances.
Same as Erza. She did all she could under circumstances vs Laxus but her current power level was still far below her climax vs Eileen.

This is only what I wanted to say. Or are you saiying Natsu was unleashed his max power vs Gajeel ? He unleashed it as Dragon Force vs Aldoron : Do you see the gap between the 2 Natsu ?

2 - No, as I said : For me, Gray beating Mirajane + Elfman is a stronger feat than Natsu beating Gajeel as a rematch. So I put Mirajane + Elfman > IDS Gajeel. But it is only my opinion.

We can agree to disagree. :)
 

Ramen

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1 - Have you seen Current Gray at the same level he was vs END ? He still potentially can but not as will. He needs circumstances.
Same as Erza. She did all she could under circumstances vs Laxus but her current power level was still far below her climax vs Eileen.

This is only what I wanted to say. Or are you saiying Natsu was unleashed his max power vs Gajeel ? He unleashed it as Dragon Force vs Aldoron : Do you see the gap between the 2 Natsu ?

2 - No, as I said : For me, Gray beating Mirajane + Elfman is a stronger feat than Natsu beating Gajeel as a rematch. So I put Mirajane + Elfman > IDS Gajeel. But it is only my opinion.

We can agree to disagree. :)
Gray needs someone to die in order to achieve that. It will never happen again. This is what we call an outlier. I don't get the Natsu thing. Natsu was holding back.............Gray wasn't lol.

They were fatigued lol. A fatigued Mira + Elfman is not > ISD Gajeel.
 

Ronin31

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Natsu was holding back.............Gray wasn't lol.
Explain where you see gray wasn't holding back as well ? Do you think he can use a fatal blow with a Devil Slayer Ougi on Mirajane who is vulnerable vs this magic ? Mirajane is powerful but still his friend.

I don't think Gray tried to use it, and Devil Slayer mode consumed his will until being berserker. In my opinion, he used all his power but no devil Slayer. Same as Natsu didn't use FDK on Gajeel but use all his classic might. Both Natsu and Gray where nearly out of Magic after the encounter.
 

Ramen

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Explain where you see gray wasn't holding back as well ? Do you think he can use a fatal blow with a Devil Slayer Ougi on Mirajane who is vulnerable vs this magic ? Mirajane is powerful but still his friend.
I'm talking about Skullion. You said he hasn't had a chance to showcase his "true power" which isn't true.

I don't think Gray tried to use it, and Devil Slayer mode consumed his will until being berserker. In my opinion, he used all his power but no devil Slayer. Same as Natsu didn't use FDK on Gajeel but use all his classic might. Both Natsu and Gray where nearly out of Magic after the encounter.
Why wouldn't he? He used DeS on weaker opponents in the past. Natsu used LFD instead and even admitted to holding back.
 

Ratrace

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The book is just the contract with the demon. The book is how demons are summoned from underworld and bound to Earthland.

Natsu is uniquely different in the sense that he was a dead human revived by injecting a demon into his body. From what we know, all the other demons were actual demons, with possible exception of Larcade (explained why, below).
END book doesn't give Natsu his physical body in Earthland, it just gives him his life through the demon summoned from it. For all other demons, the book gives them their physical form on Earthland (check Mard)

We don't know why Larcade smelled like Natsu. That's odd because NONE of the other demons smelled like Natsu, as far as we know. Twin dragons didn't notice the smell for demon gates, Mard or Bradman. All this suggests is that Larcade is the anomaly here, not the rule.
Maybe there was indeed a biological connection that Larcade had with Zeref, hence him appearing with Zeref in the afterlife.

Unrelated to main topic, but Demons of Zeref get sent back to underworld after he dies, because Zeref wrote the contract (book) that way. Which was why Lucy was able to avoid it. She rewrote the part where the contract expires after Zeref dies.
And yes, Natsu being alive means that the demon is alive as well, since demon is the only thing sustaining Natsu's life. But the demon is dormant (the seed is destroyed) and will never appear again.
If the book indeed wasn't rewritten. What would happen is, all demons of Zeref gets send back to underworld, hence they vanish without a trace, not just die. Their bodies won't remain on Earthland. But Natsu's dead body would remain, since only the demon within him would vanish



There was no sign that they fought, Cana had no scratch on her and showed no signs of exhaustion. While Gray took a beating and was sweating from exerting himself.

What were they doing? They probably went to capture others into cards, while Gray fought Mira and Elfman. Or just sat on their asses while bad mouthing Gray
When Cana made fun of Gray why didn't he say something like she had Elfman helping her.
Either Gray took out Elfman very quickly before fighting Mira or Elfman was fighting Lucy and Cana
Also Lucy and Cana (mostly Lucy) can use range attacks so they don't really need to get close
 

Biri Biri

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When Cana made fun of Gray why didn't he say something like she had Elfman helping her.
Either Gray took out Elfman very quickly before fighting Mira or Elfman was fighting Lucy and Cana
Also Lucy and Cana (mostly Lucy) can use range attacks so they don't really need to get close
There are several evidence pointing to Gray defeating both Mira and Elfman by himself. Firstly, Cana made fun of only Gray for struggling against Mira and Elfman. She loves teasing Lucy whenever she has the opportunity. If Lucy was with Gray, then it's unlikely for Cana to pick on Gray only while ignoring Lucy since she would be equally guilty of the same thing. Secondly, Cana looked fresh without a single blemish on her.


She didn't look like she even fought at all. Same in Juvia's case, who was still without any magic at that point of time. Juvia did not have a scratch on her either. Gray and Lucy were the only two characters who looked like they fought. Cana also mentioned 'speaking of which . . . the master was beaten. And we got Gajeel and Levy when they were flirting.' She was sharing the updates with the character(s) who wasn't in her group. Gray was the only one asking for updates too, "how many of our possessed guildmates are left". Since Cana used 'we', she has to be in a group. I find it hard to believe that Cana and Juvia could simply capture Gajeel and co. without having to fight. It made more sense for Lucy to be part of her group. The most logical guess would be that Gray made quick work of Elfman, and had to spend greater effort to defeat Mira. Juvia also mentioned 'you gave it your all Gray-sama'. She should be there to witness Gray fighting. My guess is they split up in two groups; Juvia with Gray, and Lucy with Cana.
 
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grey matter

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When Cana made fun of Gray why didn't he say something like she had Elfman helping her.
Either Gray took out Elfman very quickly before fighting Mira or Elfman was fighting Lucy and Cana
Also Lucy and Cana (mostly Lucy) can use range attacks so they don't really need to get close
No way Cana and Lucy can take down Elfman without breaking a sweat. And Elfman already demonstrated that he can tank Lucy's strongest spell without much issue. Elfman was still very much in fighting shape after fighting Madmole, no way Lucy is taking him down. Same for Cana. Even if they did team up and fight Elfman, they would need to exert considerable effort to beat him (which I don't think is even possible for them)

Maybe, they didn't mention him because Mira's performance overshadowed Elfman's. idk. But I see no reason to assume Lucy and Cana did any fighting, zero suggestions that they fought. While Gray was sweating and scratched up.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Wait, why are we discussing this part again lol? The argument for Gray beating Jellol isn't coming from his performance against Mira and Eflman. Jellol could've done the same with lesser difficulty.

The argument for Gray is because of the darkness mode he showed against partial END.

If Gray can access darkness mode, Gray wins, probably high diffs Jellol. Else he loses against Jellol, mid diff if Jellol is having a bad day.

I think Gray can't access darkness at will, so Jellol takes this mid diff. In the polls, I voted Gray considering darkness, his strongest mode
--- Double Post Merged, ---

There are several evidence pointing to Gray defeating both Mira and Elfman by himself. Firstly, Cana made fun of only Gray for struggling against Mira and Elfman. She loves teasing Lucy whenever she has the opportunity. If Lucy was with Gray, then it's unlikely for Cana to pick on Gray only while ignoring Lucy since she would be equally guilty of the same thing. Secondly, Cana looked fresh without a single blemish on her.


She didn't look like she even fought at all. Same in Juvia's case, who was still without any magic at that point of time. Juvia did not have a scratch on her either. Gray and Lucy were the only two characters who looked like they fought. Cana also mentioned 'speaking of which . . . the master was beaten. And we got Gajeel and Levy when they were flirting.' She was sharing the updates with the character(s) who wasn't in her group. Gray was the only one asking for updates too, "how many of our possessed guildmates are left". Since Cana used 'we', she has to be in a group. I find it hard to believe that Cana and Juvia could simply capture Gajeel and co. without having to fight. It made more sense for Lucy to be part of her group. The most logical guess would be that Gray made quick work of Elfman, and had to spend greater effort to defeat Mira. Juvia also mentioned 'you gave it your all Gray-sama'. She should be there to witness Gray fighting. My guess is they split up in two groups; Juvia with Gray, and Lucy with Cana.
Lucy's injuries were from her previous fight with Strauss siblings
 

Ratrace

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There are several evidence pointing to Gray defeating both Mira and Elfman by himself. Firstly, Cana made fun of only Gray for struggling against Mira and Elfman. She loves teasing Lucy whenever she has the opportunity. If Lucy was with Gray, then it's unlikely for Cana to pick on Gray only while ignoring Lucy since she would be equally guilty of the same thing. Secondly, Cana looked fresh without a single blemish on her.


She didn't look like she even fought at all. Same in Juvia's case, who was still without any magic at that point of time. Juvia did not have a scratch on her either. Gray and Lucy were the only two characters who looked like they fought. Cana also mentioned 'speaking of which . . . the master was beaten. And we got Gajeel and Levy when they were flirting.' She was sharing the updates with the character(s) who wasn't in her group. Gray was the only one asking for updates too, "how many of our possessed guildmates are left". Since Cana used 'we', she has to be in a group. I find it hard to believe that Cana and Juvia could simply capture Gajeel and co. without having to fight. It made more sense for Lucy to be part of her group. The most logical guess would be that Gray made quick work of Elfman, and had to spend greater effort to defeat Mira. Juvia also mentioned 'you gave it your all Gray-sama'. She should be there to witness Gray fighting. My guess is they split up in two groups; Juvia with Gray, and Lucy with Cana.
She made fun of him for having trouble against Mira she didn't say anything about Elfman until were talking about the cards
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

No way Cana and Lucy can take down Elfman without breaking a sweat. And Elfman already demonstrated that he can tank Lucy's strongest spell without much issue. Elfman was still very much in fighting shape after fighting Madmole, no way Lucy is taking him down. Same for Cana. Even if they did team up and fight Elfman, they would need to exert considerable effort to beat him (which I don't think is even possible for them)

Maybe, they didn't mention him because Mira's performance overshadowed Elfman's. idk. But I see no reason to assume Lucy and Cana did any fighting, zero suggestions that they fought. While Gray was sweating and scratched up.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Wait, why are we discussing this part again lol? The argument for Gray beating Jellol isn't coming from his performance against Mira and Eflman. Jellol could've done the same with lesser difficulty.

The argument for Gray is because of the darkness mode he showed against partial END.

If Gray can access darkness mode, Gray wins, probably high diffs Jellol. Else he loses against Jellol, mid diff if Jellol is having a bad day.

I think Gray can't access darkness at will, so Jellol takes this mid diff. In the polls, I voted Gray considering darkness, his strongest mode
--- Double Post Merged, ---



Lucy's injuries were from her previous fight with Strauss siblings
The problem is we will never know if he fought both or not.
Now I do believe Jellal would have done better not because he is stronger but because the type of magic he uses
 

Ronin31

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She made fun of him for having trouble against Mira she didn't say anything about Elfman until were talking about the cards
Cana never took account about Elfman, even when he was teaming up with her vs Diabolos. It's like mocking him. But he was sure here, helping Mirajane vs Diabolos and still here vs Gray. Or tell me who defeated Elfman when he was with Mirajane and girls ran away to take another defeated friends (Makarov, Gajeel and Levy) into the cards, at different places ?

Jubia has no magic. Lucy couldn't, even with Star dress Mix, damage him. Cana is the only person who can take people into cards.
 

Ratrace

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Cana never took account about Elfman, even when he was teaming up with her vs Diabolos. It's like mocking him. But he was sure here, helping Mirajane vs Diabolos and still here vs Gray. Or tell me who defeated Elfman when he was with Mirajane and girls ran away to take another defeated friends (Makarov, Gajeel and Levy) into the cards, at different places ?

Jubia has no magic. Lucy couldn't, even with Star dress Mix, damage him. Cana is the only person who can take people into cards.
How do you know they didn't get those people afterwards.
I went back and reread those parts and the whole thing seem like a joke because the only person that took Elfman seriously was Lucy
 

Ronin31

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the whole thing seem like a joke because the only person that took Elfman seriously was Lucy
Exactly what I was saying. Nobody took account about Elfman, even when he was teaming up vs Diabolos. The author mocked him. So yes, a joke :).

How do you know they didn't get those people afterwards.
Because of the chapter 49 statements : Gajeel, Levy and Makarov were already in the cards when Gray finally defeated Elfman and Mirajane, where Cana mocked him. The group was split : Gray managed to defeat Stauss siblings meanwhile the girls's group (Cana, Lucy and Jubia) managed to rescue another people. At the regroup, Cana took Mira and Elfman previously beaten
 

Axiomus

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Explain where you see gray wasn't holding back as well ? Do you think he can use a fatal blow with a Devil Slayer Ougi on Mirajane who is vulnerable vs this magic ? Mirajane is powerful but still his friend.

I don't think Gray tried to use it, and Devil Slayer mode consumed his will until being berserker. In my opinion, he used all his power but no devil Slayer. Same as Natsu didn't use FDK on Gajeel but use all his classic might. Both Natsu and Gray where nearly out of Magic after the encounter.
Gray wasn't enraged by Juvia's death, so he wasn't at his max potential. But I doubt Gray held back using devil slaying magic against Mirajane because he didn't when fighting the Raijinshuu, and Mirajane is much stronger than them. There's also Juvia saying that Gray gave it his all.
 

Ronin31

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Gray wasn't enraged by Juvia's death, so he wasn't at his max potential. But I doubt Gray held back using devil slaying magic against Mirajane because he didn't when fighting the Raijinshuu, and Mirajane is much stronger than them. There's also Juvia saying that Gray gave it his all.
Gray can give his all without using DS, Natsu fuelled out nearly all his magic vs Gajeel, without using FDK as well. DS is Gray's trump card and didn't expected to use it vs Raijinshou, even when he was in trouble until he had no choice to do it : his ice magic was nullified. Sure Mirajane is stronger, but as a strong demonic entity, she is the most vulnérable to Gray's DS. Think that Gray's mind is consume by his DS mode until being enrage and out of control. The small time he used it, he crashed Fried's face badly on the floor. Do you think Gray should take the risk to kill Mirajane, a friend ? Mirajane is strong, Gray should stay far longer in his mode than vs Fried, and with operative magic. I don't see Gray trying that or he make the risk of being berserker with attempt to kill her.

That's only my point. But never mind he used it or not, he beats them both.
 

Axiomus

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Gray can give his all without using DS, Natsu fuelled out nearly all his magic vs Gajeel, without using FDK as well. DS is Gray's trump card and didn't expected to use it vs Raijinshou, even when he was in trouble until he had no choice to do it : his ice magic was nullified. Sure Mirajane is stronger, but as a strong demonic entity, she is the most vulnérable to Gray's DS. Think that Gray's mind is consume by his DS mode until being enrage and out of control. The small time he used it, he crashed Fried's face badly on the floor. Do you think Gray should take the risk to kill Mirajane, a friend ? Mirajane is strong, Gray should stay far longer in his mode than vs Fried, and with operative magic. I don't see Gray trying that or he make the risk of being berserker with attempt to kill her.

That's only my point. But never mind he used it or not, he beats them both.
If you're holding back on an ability, by definition that's not giving it your all. And nobody said Natsu gave it his all against Gajeel.

This idea that Gray holds back on using devil slaying magic because he's afraid of going crazy is unfounded. Gray uses devil slaying magic all the time. He used it against Ajeel. He used it against Historia of Ur. He used it against Invel. He used it against Skullion. He even used it just to sneak into Avatar, and had it up the whole time he was fighting Natsu, and then used it to freeze a fodder. He probably would have used it against the Raijinshuu even if Freed hadn't set up his runes, because he wasn't exactly winning with just ice make.

Gray doesn't have to kill Mirajane with devil slaying magic. He could just try to freeze her. And actually this was his first idea. It just got shot down because Cana pointed out that freezing wouldn't work on Mirajane because it didn't work on Skullion. Looking back to the fight with Skullion, the only time Gray even got close to freezing Skullion was with ice devil zero's longsword. So Gray's response to all this pretty much proves that a move on that level wouldn't have been enough for Mira. At least until he figured that Mira was injured enough. Again, by Gray's own estimation.


Edit: I don't understand why people find it necessary to constantly bring up Mira and Elfman not being fresh in their off-panel loss to Gray. Gray, Natsu and Erza has consistently fought multiple battles in quick succession throughout the series. It's par for the course for them. Nobody brings them up when they have to do so and lost. So in Mira and Elfman's case, why is it necessary to do so for them? Furthermore, Mira and Elfman only had some scratches and surface-level bruise after their fight with Lucy and Diabolos. There were zero notable wounds on them. Compare the shape/condition they were in to Gray after he fought Ultear, and went on to fight Hades. Or after he fought Silver, and went on to fight Mard. Or even after he fought Invel, and went on to fight Natsu. He had grievous wounds across his body, with significant blood loss and actually reopened in his subsequent fights. Mira and Elfman were hardly what you call 'banged up', while in Gray's case, he was. Unless Mira and Elfman have horrible stamina, I don't see why is it a discredit towards Gray. Not to mention, it's 2 v 1 so they should have the numerical advantage.
It's because of who Mirajane was fighting. Namely Skullion, who low diffed Gray. The fact that Mirajane stalemated Skullion at all should put her above Gray. So when Gray points out that Mirajane is injured and his own waifu calls him a coward for it, it feels disingenuous to say he would beat a healthy Mirajane.

And yeah, Mirajane's stamina isn't the greatest. Dunno about Elfman.
 
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Ratrace

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Exactly what I was saying. Nobody took account about Elfman, even when he was teaming up vs Diabolos. The author mocked him. So yes, a joke :).



Because of the chapter 49 statements : Gajeel, Levy and Makarov were already in the cards when Gray finally defeated Elfman and Mirajane, where Cana mocked him. The group was split : Gray managed to defeat Stauss siblings meanwhile the girls's group (Cana, Lucy and Jubia) managed to rescue another people. At the regroup, Cana took Mira and Elfman previously beaten
You're probably right some of it doesn't make sense. Like why spilt up wouldn't it be easier if they work together. The problem with off panel fights we have to guess what happened
 

Ronin31

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It's because of who Mirajane was fighting. Namely Skullion, who low diffed Gray.
Did she injure him ?? She contained him. Same as Elfman containing Mardmole.

Gray battled him in a magic duel about ocean's mastery : "Devil Ice" vs "Absolute Ash" magic. When Skullion had enough about this competition, he used "Black Ashes" spell to erase Gray. Skullion only used ashes attacks on Mirajane, gray was compete against when he was in classic mode (ice make).

I think "Absolute Ash" and "Black Ashes" (ougi ?) used against Gray in DS was stronger than Ashes used to erase Ice Make at the beginning. I don't see Mira's performance above Gray's vs Skullion.
 

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Did she injure him ?? She contained him. Same as Elfman containing Mardmole.

Gray battled him in a magic duel about ocean's mastery : "Devil Ice" vs "Absolute Ash" magic. When Skullion had enough about this competition, he used "Black Ashes" spell to erase Gray. Skullion only used ashes attacks on Mirajane, gray was compete against when he was in classic mode (ice make).

I think "Absolute Ash" and "Black Ashes" (ougi ?) used against Gray in DS was stronger than Ashes used to erase Ice Make at the beginning. I don't see Mira's performance above Gray's vs Skullion.
She did. There's more injuries on him than when he fought Gray. Madmole got scratched up too, who has better durability than Skullion. Mirajane was strong enough that Skullion decided that he was going to need to get Black Dragon Slaying Knights, who are stronger than Skullion himself, for help.

Black Ash isn't an secret art.
 

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When END woke up, yes, he was partly demon. Yea, I agree it's more than 1% for sure. But 50%? Nope. Look at Natsu throughout the fight, I'll put panels.

Beginning of the fight, Natsu looking pretty much fully human except for END "aura" surrounding him
They're also matching in their punches (which was what I referred to earlier)

Towards the end of the fight, Natsu became a bit more demonic. Getting demonic teeth and hands. (and another panel of them matching their punch)


This is the most demonic, that partial END ever got. You think this is 50% demonic? Highly doubt it. At most, 20%. IMO 10-20%

Even the most demonic that Natsu got, he was still mostly human. Any slaver advantage that Gray got, was towards the end of the fight. And that too minimal.

Again, their fight showed us that they were pretty much around each other. While the difference between Mard and Gray was like sky and Earth. Or, are you really suggesting that the gap between Gray and partial END was MORE than that between Gray and Mard?
Just because Natsu LOOKED mostly human doesn't mean he was, since we know demons can still look human (maybe the seed was keeping Etherious Form for last resort... or maybe END DOESN'T have one, like Larcade).

I think the gap between Gray and END wasn't as big as with Mard since Gray still needed Natsu's help, but it was still big enough to stalemate a Slayer advantage (in terms of power, but I agree that their physical stats were close). So END wasn't 10 tiers above him like Mard, but maybe like 6-7 tiers instead.
 
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grey matter

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Just because Natsu LOOKED mostly human doesn't mean he was, since we know demons can still look human (maybe the seed was keeping Etherious Form for last resort... or maybe END DOESN'T have one, like Larcade).

I think the gap between Gray and END wasn't as big as with Mard since Gray still needed Natsu's help, but it was still big enough to stalemate a Slayer advantage (in terms of power, but I agree that their physical stats were close). So END wasn't 10 tiers above him like Mard, but maybe like 6-7 tiers instead.
Oh please, you know you're reaching at this point. We SEE that END transformation was slowly taking place. This proves END has a demon form. And the transformation taking place implies that he was transforming to END slowly, instead of it already having taken place and END waiting for opportunity to use later

6-7 tiers above = you get utterly stomped in combat, not stalemate. Hell, being just a tier above itself means you're having difficulty to exchange blows, match combat speed, physical strength etc. That's why we say "x is a tier above y". Because they're too far off that x can barely hold, and would swiftly be defeated.
Gray only needed a clean blow against Mard, and it took him 3 full chapters and a DF Natsu distracting him to do it.
While Gray was exchanging clean blows with Natsu all along. So why was Natsu not one shotted, especially if the gap was lesser than against Mard (which you now admit)? Obviously, Slayer advantage wasn't a big player here
 
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