Question kaito

[zzigg]

I half agree .Wink Blue is an evolution of her first ability but Black Widow is a new enhancer's ability.Palm was not even a fighter and now she is maybe stronger than Killua.

i forgot about that....but we actually don't know if she had it before transformation or not...

 

[mousiehamster]

Punch something at 100% of your power. After that punch you're not going to be able to immediately adjust your position because you're using your maximum output. If you punch with 20% of your power, you can easily adjust after the attack.

When you attack someone who is likely to have any 'tricky' ability your strategy as Reinforcement is use the lowest amount of power possible that's enough to take out an arm, because you know that guy probably has some tricky ability he'll attempt to use to counter so you don't want to overcommit yourself. It's also possible the other guy just ends up sacrificing an arm to activate his ability. While this doesn't mean you shouldn't go for the arm whenever the opportunity presents itself, there's no need for overkill because as long as you take the arm and avoid their counterattack the fight is almost certainly over. And there's no reason why this strategy would ever not work unless your enemy has a total hax ability like Emperor Time. From the point of view a Reinforcement user, if they can tank your hits then that pretty much rules out Materialization/Manipoulation/Specialization, as all 3 schools absolutely do not fight by tanking stuff.

I completely agree with this - you don't want to expose yourself by pouring 100% into your punch. Problem is that Uvo's 20% is 20% of his total aura output, rather than a case of him allocating 20% to his punch. I say this because Uvo goes 100% at a distance from Kurapica and Kurapica remarks that Uvo is emanating "an incredible amount of aura." Unless he's already shifting all his aura into his fist at a distance, (he isn't, his whole body is pulsing with aura and with no particular emphasis on his fist) it's clear that this implies that Uvo was artificially using a fraction of his aura. Why? For fun? Despite the plot holes, inconsistencies and such throughout HxH which makes the logical interpretation the wrong interpretation, I think this was what Togashi really wanted to express. It was a means for him to "up the stakes". I suppose it was effective from a narrative/writing standpoint but in the end no matter how you twist it it's hard to justify. Considering how little of Uvo we've seen the only conclusion to make is that "he's incredibly careless", in my opinion.

Another example of Togashi not making sense is the thing about Kurapica's In cloaked chain already being around Uvo since the blunder he made when he was fighting at 50%. If the chain was already around him, why would Kurapica be surprised about Uvo's whereabouts, In or not?

 

[Demonspeed]

I think Uvo used 20% of his aura because Kurapika is a conjurer.Conjurers and manipulators are the weakest physically so their defense is too.For a guy who used all his potential in brute strength I think his reasoning was pretty logical.

 

[Phantron]

I completely agree with this - you don't want to expose yourself by pouring 100% into your punch. Problem is that Uvo's 20% is 20% of his total aura output, rather than a case of him allocating 20% to his punch. I say this because Uvo goes 100% at a distance from Kurapica and Kurapica remarks that Uvo is emanating "an incredible amount of aura." Unless he's already shifting all his aura into his fist at a distance, (he isn't, his whole body is pulsing with aura and with no particular emphasis on his fist) it's clear that this implies that Uvo was artificially using a fraction of his aura. Why? For fun? Despite the plot holes, inconsistencies and such throughout HxH which makes the logical interpretation the wrong interpretation, I think this was what Togashi really wanted to express. It was a means for him to "up the stakes". I suppose it was effective from a narrative/writing standpoint but in the end no matter how you twist it it's hard to justify. Considering how little of Uvo we've seen the only conclusion to make is that "he's incredibly careless", in my opinion.

Another example of Togashi not making sense is the thing about Kurapica's In cloaked chain already being around Uvo since the blunder he made when he was fighting at 50%. If the chain was already around him, why would Kurapica be surprised about Uvo's whereabouts, In or not?

I realize the way Ubogin punches more or less the same the entire time but I still think if he does a Big Bang it has a longer recovery time compared to a punch at lesser overall power output. HXH isn't a series where people randomly used reduced % of their total power just to be cool.

At the 50% mark, Ubogin said Kurapika will regret not chaining him, which implies he wasn't chained. Kurapika's ability is not unlike Hisoka's, in the sense that he can obviously chain someone while attacking directly too and has no reason to hide it unless he's trying to sneak attack. At that point Kurapika wasn't hiding his chains, so Ubogin must mean chaining as a follow-through to his normal attack. But I think Kurapika didn't chain him becuase he knows Ubogin is at 50% so it's possible he gets an extra burst of power to do something unexpected, so Kurapika prefers to wait until he's at 100% to ensure he can't do anything unexpected. Again this is only possible because Kurapika could tank his 50% damage output. If he did not he'd be forced to try to chain Ubogin earlier, and Ubogin possibly could avoid it by increasing his aura since more aura = more speed too.

---------- Post added at 02:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:49 PM ----------

I think Uvo used 20% of his aura because Kurapika is a conjurer.Conjurers and manipulators are the weakest physically so their defense is too.For a guy who used all his potential in brute strength I think his reasoning was pretty logical.

Well the 20% is enough power to win but the question raised up is why not just use 100% if it looks like his punching animation is pretty much always the same? After all being deader is better than just dead.

My argument would be that although Ubogin's attacks look identical at 20/50/100%, he must have longer recovery while doing the 100% Big Bang compared to just the 20% test case. In fact, in both cases we basically have fight go in this format:

Ubogin punches Kurapika
Kurapika stagger back
Counterattack with chain

In the 20%, Ubogin avoided it. In the 100%, Ubogin did not. Kurapika said that it's because he used In and Ubogin was talking, but I think part of it must be because Ubogin cannot immediately recover after using the Big Bang. That is, that punch must use enough power that he's momentarily frozen after the impact just from using up so much aura. If there's no difference in recovery time between 100% and 20%, then he might as well start out at 100% all the time.

---------- Post added at 03:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:55 PM ----------

Note that in most cases, using 100% would also be problematic in the sense that after you attempt a 100% output attack, you'd be pretty vulnerable to any counterattack. It doesn't matter in Kurapika's case since his chains are basically one hit kill (you go to Zetsu and it's game over if it connects) but against most opponents perhaps it is wise to leave extra aura to defend.

Also, I guess you can say that if someone's at 100% for an attack then they got no aura left to do things like Gyou, which makes it less likely they'll see through your In. Ubogin at 20%/50% presumably can use Gyou any time and might see through the In that way, but if he's at 100% by definition he has to use all his power in the Big Bang and wouldn't be able to use Gyou immediately even if he wanted to.

Although the manga does not make it very clear why there are drawbacks to go 100%, I think we can assume it must leave you more vulnerable to any kind of counterattack/surprises so if you know 20% is supposed to knock someone out, you wouldn't use more than 20%, not because you underestimated your opponents but that having an 80% of aura in reserve helps you deal with any surprises, provided you know your 20% is sufficient to win.

 

[zzigg]

To be fair Feitan was really rusty.

Also, Zazan was a division leader? Wasn't she the queen?

In HxH, things like surprise, and conditions matter. Feitan was struggling against that fodder queen .but once he got into battle mode it was obvious there were difference between them in nen abilities, yet that didn't stop him from struggling early on against her. What would you think would have happened if Feitan faught Pitou instead of ugly queen? Rusty Feitan might have died if he didn't get his act together quick enough. Even Netero at first was saying how he thought Pitou might be stronger than him, yet after some honing it became clear he was on a much higher level.

HxH fights factor in many things, prep, conditions, settings, abilities, etc. Pitou surprised Kaito and took of his arm, what can you do at that point? I don't think many of the Ryodan would have fared better in that spot.I think Feitan, or any of the other Ryodan for that matter, took the Chimera Ants they fought all that serious. Once they did they completely dominated them. That's to say, they get serious when they need to.

but I have to say that Feitan's pain packer probably wouldn't have done much damage at all to Pitou... Considering the sheer amount of aura she possessed and the incredible speed and jumping ability in her legs she could easily create a ton of distance in very little time, there is a huge difference between Zazan and Pitou.

I do feel that Feitan would have snapped back into shape quicker had he faced an opponent as strong as Pitou but I just don't see him faring much better than Kaito.

 

[Demonspeed]

I don't think Feitan was rusty.His vision of fighting really impressed me(he pays attention to details).He is just a guy who relies on his speed.Zazan was not fodder,she trapped him.

She noticed Feitan was paying attention to details and she put down her to lure him.

 

[Phantron]

Even Netero and Zeno said they could've died if Meryem simply attacked while they were distracted by Pitou's ability. In HXH you don't get to complain about stuff like mental duress, rust, lack of sleep, or whatever. If Meryem simply instant killed Zeno and Meryem while they took their eyes off him, that's a perfectly acceptable outcome in HXH because you're never supposed to take your eye off someone as powerful as Meryem.

At any rate Feitan tried to hit Zanza with Ko, it got tanked and Zanza counterattacked. He's lucky that he didn't just instantly died from the counterattack because that's what usually happens when your Ko gets tanked for no damage. Feitan's ability is pretty dumb anyway because like Gensuru it's your standard 'use double aura to do damage' because he has to protect himself first (otherwise he sets himself on fire too) before he can attack the enemy. I assume Togashi isn't interested in having any consistency fighting a fodder enemy but realistically such abilities gets you owned hard by anyone stronger than you. Whatever aura you use to protect yourself, an equally strong (and even slightly weaker) opponent can simply do the exact same thing since your AP is split on offense/defense (set enemy on fire + protect yourself from fire) while the enemy only has to concentrate on defense.

I suppose you can argue there's some special fire resistant property or that perhaps Zanza is especially vulnerable to fire but in the case Phinx should just throw a flamethrower and a flame retardant suit to Feitan for help.

Note that Killua's ability is similar, but because he's naturally resistant to electricity he does not need to allocate any aura to protect himself from his own lightning attacks, so he put 100% of his output on offense which makes it a very potent move. But this won't work in Feitan's case because we sure don't know of any naturally fire-resistant human beings in HXH.

 

[zzigg]

I don't think Feitan was rusty.His vision of fighting really impressed me(he pays attention to details).He is just a guy who relies on his speed.Zazan was not fodder,she trapped him.

She noticed Feitan was paying attention to details and she put down her to lure him.

but he wouldn't done much facing pito compared to what kaito did

..he give killua enough time to escape carrying gon .from pito who is super fast and can detect people from a long distance
that mean they fought for a long period of time

.we may actually see a flashback of the fight ...

 

[Phantron]

but he wouldn't done much facing pito compared to what kaito did

..he give killua enough time to escape carrying gon .from pito who is super fast and can detect people from a long distance
that mean they fought for a long period of time

.we may actually see a flashback of the fight ...

Pitou wasn't interested in Gon and Killua because they were too weak. When they met again, Killua was puzzled because Pitou didn't use aura, and said Gon has grown to a point where Pitou can no longer defeat him without aura. That means when they first met, Pitou was perfectly capable of defeating Gon without using any aura, which is a staggering amount of difference. Pitou also won't pursue out of a radius from the nest out of his En range since his ultimate goal is to guard the Queen/King, so you're looking at at most 2km to get out of his pursue range.

 

[zzigg]

Feitan's ability is pretty dumb

somehow it's dumb ....but maybe feitan as a torture expert.. like to get himself tortured before he set his foes in fire...for me i see this ability suit him well

Pitou wasn't interested in Gon and Killua because they were too weak. When they met again, Killua was puzzled because Pitou didn't use aura, and said Gon has grown to a point where Pitou can no longer defeat him without aura. That means when they first met, Pitou was perfectly capable of defeating Gon without using any aura, which is a staggering amount of difference. Pitou also won't pursue out of a radius from the nest out of his En range since his ultimate goal is to guard the Queen/King, so you're looking at at most 2km to get out of his pursue range.

pito did use his aura when he landed in front of them.. killua said that it was the creepiest aura he ever felt

Spoiler

i kinda agree with the idea that pito won't go far away than 2 km ...but if he could he would thats a rare prey and a good information source
and that's long time enough for killua to get out of their carrying gon ...
that's pretty much long time for a hxh fight ...also we saw ruined trees and pito scratched ..so they fought for a while

 

[Phantron]

Killua saying Pitou need to use aura to beat Gon now implies Pitou COULD do it. Of course Pitou isn't crazy enough to do that, not to mention Kite was there who certainly isn't going to lose to auraless Pitou, but just the possibility exists.

It's pretty much impossible to lure any of the Royal Guards outside of their radius. They're not physically capable of making a conscious decision to leave the area they're supposed to guard unless ordered by the Queen/King. When Pitou was fighting Morel's puppets, Pitou was saying he wish they'd attack head on because he can't leave his post willingly.

Actually I thought about Feitan's ability some more, if you just put simple physics, it's basically worthless. From the picture we can see Feitan projected the sun at a spot roughly equidistant from himself and Zanza. Heat drops off x^1/3 as a function from the source, so if Zanza merely thought 'this looks dangerous, better back off' and say doubled the regular standoff distance, then Pain Packer would do 1/8 the damage compared to normal. Since Zanza didn't even die instantly we can assume 1/8 the damage would just give her a nasty sunburn or something, and then Feitan would probably die since he just used his big move and was already pretty injuried. Feitan must have aimed the sun at the wrong spot when Phinx talked about how he almost got killed the last time he tried to watch the ability, because the laws of physics works heavily against this ability.

Realistically Feitan's ability is probably meant to be some kind of last ditch retaliation attack, except the fact that you can see it from a mile away and give enough time for the nearest civilians to evacuate, so unless your opponent is just going to stand there and watch you charge up this move, there's basically no way the damage could connect. Again, just merely backing off a reasonable distance would completely shut down this move.

 

[Demonspeed]

Feitan doesn't like to be injured,his reactions when he was hurt proved that.And it seems he has different types of attacks.For me,Pain Packer shows that he is spiteful.

 

[Phantron]

Feitan doesn't like to be injured,his reactions when he was hurt proved that.And it seems he has different types of attacks.For me,Pain Packer shows that he is spiteful.

Sure but 'hate getting injuried' is hardly a criteria for massive powerup. It's pretty clear you can't exactly lie to the system of aura. You can't say 'I hate drinking Coke more than anything in the world' and then have a special move where you drink some Coke and become super awesome because you totally hate Coke.

The best way that ability would work is trying to punish an overly aggressive attacker with a last ditch counterattack. That is, if the attacker saw this move and actually pursued him he'd get burned even harder and flat out die so it's worth the risk. Note that given the time it takes to charge this up (plenty of time for everyone else to run away) it's still possible the attacker simply killed Feitan before he's done charging, but this seems to be a move that'd be used against a stronger opponent so you got to take some chances. Still, a cautious opponent who simply backs off would easily survive Pain Packer.

I imagine the Phinx/Feitan encounter must go like this:

Feitan: Arrrgh! Now I'm getting angry!
Feitan: (Phinx, you should get out of here)!
Phinx: Huh? I don't speak your language, Feitan.
Feitan: (Oops I aimed the sun directly above your head on accident)!
Phinx: English please?

Sun explodes and Phinx barely survives.

 

[mousiehamster]

Well nothing precludes Feitan from moving while he casts pain packer so he could probably detonate the thing at close range if he wanted. Furthermore, he should be able to evade attacks and attack himself in that state.

As for the ability sucking because it requires nen on defense, since the armor is conjured, the armor only locks up part of the user's nen pool and not his rate of discharge, unlike Bomber's little flower where the attack and defense components appear concurrently.

Of course, this contradicts Razor's power-up from cancelling the clones but there are two things to note: firstly, the clones are maintained by emission rather than conjuration which in contrast, may further require constant "upkeep" i.e. to maintain their form, they need to be supplied with a constant flow of nen; and secondly, the clones probably require constant use of manipulation nen in order to function so the power-up may be a consequence of that instead.

Or possibly Togashi didn't think that far.

 

[Phantron]

Feitan is part of a popular group of allegedly powerful human beings fighting against an Ant nobody will likely remember what her name is. Obviously the whole Ant detour for the Spiders is more or less fan service so it's not supposed to be rigorous. That episode is just basically various members of the Spider doing cool moves and own a bunch of guys no one will possibly care about, and even then it was surprisingly tough for some of them.

For movement while channeling Pain Packer, aura is a zero sum game. If you're projecting some special material to block the heat and an immense source of heat energy that means all your other stats go way down during the time you're channeling that. You might not be immobile but it's not like your combat stats would be anything worth mentioning. The first way to deal with Pain Packer is simply kill Feitan before he's completed it. Given there's enough time for people to run away flailing their hands you can tell that his ability does not activate instantly.

For his armor, if you want to get into 'special material' the entire premise of aura is dumb. That is, if Feitan projected special fire-retardant material as opposed to Gensuru who obviously puts exactly enough AP on his hands to block his own damage, then what's stopping an enemy from doing exactly the same thing? Further if all you're doing with aura is making up 'special material' you should just spend your time buying up poisoned weapons. Even a taser is quite effective in this regard (very few human characters resist electricity). I'm going to assume his armor operates on the same principle as Gensuru, because otherwise any ability can be explained by 'special material'. The point Kurapika's master makes with Materialization is weak if all you're trying to do is project 'special items' that do relatively mundane things (like killing people or blocking damage) because they're not going to be more special than stuff you can already buy in the world of HXH.

I'm going to assume Feitan can't just hurl the sun like a projectile and half of the standard 'standoff' distance is about the limit of as far as the 'sun' will travel before it detonates. In light of that, the only way the ability is deadly is if you stand still which is exactly what Zanza did. If you simply charge at Feitan, given he's already hurt you presumably have an upper hand somewhere to hurt him in the first place. His ability takes a nontrivial time to activate, and since he has to spread out his aura on offense (sun) and defense (to not burn himself, but presumably the armor doesn't protect from normal damage or that'd just be cheap) you've a good shot at taking him out. Of course, the better solution is simply back off since his sun obviously dissapiates heat in 3 dimensions, leading to x^3 dropoff as you back away from the center. Note that this isn't necessarily planning against his ability in mind. In HXH there are two schools of thought against unknown abilities:

1. Press on the attack and kill them before they finish use their ability.
2. Backoff and see what it does.

Pain Packer is extremely vulnerable to #2, and even #1 has a good chance of working (because Feitan presumably is already in worse shape than his opponent). Yes Zanza picked 3: Stand still and watch. But that's pretty much never the right choice and we can only assume she chose do due to her lack of experience.

 

[zzigg]

i think feitens shield wich work as a fire-retardant material varies form the degree of heat of the rising sun ...
in other words ...the stronger the sun is ... the more protective the shield become..
and that's something that you can't find and purchase and even if you can ... am pretty sure it would be painful to wear and walk with it your whole life .
and for his Achilles heel... that he become defensless while charging his sun ..i think the shield is thick enough to protect his body in those 3 or 4 secs from the attacks of his foe...and don't forget he is fifth in the strength list including ubo so his body is quite strong.
so feitens ability isn't that dumb after all.

 

[Phantron]

Despite its impressive name, the heat generated isn't really that much. There's obviously enough time for Zanza to suffer as she burned so it's not like the temprerature was so high it can just incinerate you instantly. So the temperature is comparable to a normal fire. Well the suits regular fireman uses can withstand the heat from a fire by definition, so Feitan would be better off with a firesuit and a flamethrower. Yes it'd be clumsy to wear such a thing but again think about how much time and effort it takes to learn an ability, not to mention you can only learn so many abilities. Buying a flamethrower suddenly doesn't seem like a bad idea.

The suit isn't going to protect him from physical damage. If it does that means the fire damage can also be 'tanked' by projecting more aura since you're using aura to create something that absorbs fire + direct damage. Almost by definition whoever he is fighting when he has to use this ability is stronger than him (he needs to take significant damage to activate his ability), so that guy can just tank the same attack by the virtue of being stronger than Feitan. But if he's relying on special damage (heat) then that means his suit is just equivalent of a suit a fireman would use, which obviously isn't going to do much good at withstanding damage from someone stronger than him, so he's obviously very vulnerable when attempting to use this ability.

Unlike Gensuru's ability, Feitan's ability is arguably even worse because it's not even an effective 'beat the weak' since the activated condition is him taking damage. This implies it would actually be pretty useless against weak opponents (he should not take damage). Yet against strong opponents the apparent activation time is an eternity in HXH where details of a fight are measured in tenths of a second. It's quite obvious that Feitan's ability took time scale on the order of seconds to activate (otherwise it'd be completely impossible for everyone to simply evacuate before he finishes his ability. Note that Zanza is almost certainly faster than a considerable number of Spiders too so if every Spider can evacuate on time, so can she).

 

[zzigg]

Well the suits regular fireman uses can withstand the heat from a fire by definition,

but it does not varies form the degree of heat of the rising sun ...since he himself don't know how powerful his sun will be until he get injured enough
so his ability automaticly make the shield more protective depending on how strong the rising sun is

Despite its impressive name, the heat generated isn't really that much. There's obviously enough time for Zanza to suffer as she burned so it's not like the temprerature was so high it can just incinerate you instantly. So the temperature is comparable to a normal fire.

Buying a flamethrower suddenly doesn't seem like a bad idea.

i think he can reach a temperature that normally don't exist but in deep down earth ...for example if he lost an arm like what happened to kaito he can achieve that high temperature

yet the few secs that take to generate is really a disadvantage

Yes it'd be clumsy to wear such a thing but again think about how much time and effort it takes to learn an ability,

that's why i said may be his ability has something to do with his mentality feiten is a cold blooded murderer an torture expert...may be he find some pleasure in getting tortured and returning the pain

Feitan's ability is arguably even worse because it's not even an effective 'beat the weak' since the activated condition is him taking damage

well he can just let his guard down to get himself injured and then enjoy the view....and if he is fighting someone weak he has simply the enhanced hand to rip his head off


and i agree that the time that take to charge is really a fatal failing maybe togashi made it in purpose so korapica will take advantage of it

 

[Phantron]

To be fair most of the techniques in HXH aren't really that rigorous to the 'risk = reward' system. For example Killua's lightning is just pure beatdown. Gon's jajaken does Ko level output without the risk. That is, we see Gon got hit while charging multiple times, even though we're told if you do Ko and someone hit you anywhere you didn't have Ko the likely outcome is instant death. Feitan's ability falls on the opposite spectrum in that it's apparently a lot of risk for no obvious gain, but if there was a serious fight it tends to get magically balanced. Otherwise nobody can possibly even defeat Killua. I mean he's so fast a Royal Guard can't even keep up with his speed at all. How can any human possibly deal with this? Royal Guards can tank otherwise fatal hits on vulnerable body parts (neck, head, whatever) but no way a human can possibly do that.

Feitan's ability might work on an overly aggressive attacker, and since he has to take damage first anywa, it's kind of implied his opponent is stronger than him. So yes it's risky (the attacker can simply kill you first) but you're already behind so maybe the risk is worth it. Of course he'd get burned on someone like Ilumi or even Killua who is most certainly going to back off against an unknown move and then all they'd get is a nasty sunburn and Feitan will likely die after spending all his aura for a counterattack that did nothing.

That said, the Spiders don't really strike me as having good abilities in general for combat and in particular they don't seem to have ability geared to defeat superior opponents. This is consistent with their tendency to travel in massive groups for people of their power. That is, we can see that powerful humans in the world of HXH tend to travel alone or in very small groups, but Spiders routinely travel with a 5+ man party. Given that they're of course very strong baseline, it's possible that this influenced them to develop abilities that aren't really useful against strong opponents alone because they're used to just beating people down with superior numbers + strength. The vast majority of Spider abilities aren't even advantage neutral. That is, Hisoka's ability is advantage neutral, as in it is still perfectly viable against an equally strong or even stronger opponent than him. I think its usage is overrated but it certainly isn't going to backfire on him. Can you imagine Phinx fighting someone as strong as him and say, "Hold on man, let me spin my arm 25 times to charge up this move"?

 

[zzigg]

most of those abilities that have fatal failing are abilities that still in developement phase

gon..

or super abilities that need to have a weak point so the owner won't be an undefeated

killua.. feiten..hurapica

or just the weakest ability in the nen users abilities

phinx..hisoka

in other hand we have complete abilities like neteros hiakukshi

and it is shown that the spiders don't hang out in groups but when they have a job ...so they don't depend on each other most of the time ..and for their abilities they developed ones that fit their mentality ..personality ...and desire and they know that death is a risk in their life.and as bandits that have enemies everywhere they have to keep enhancing their skills all the time....the point is that they believe that they are the top .their will make their nen stronger and that's a factor that few nene users have.