Discussion King

[kkck]

Through the manga among the abilities the sins have the ones that have intrigued me the most are those of king. However the manga has also not actually explained much about his abilities which contrary to that of other sins are less straightforward in many ways. Take meliodas and his full counter. Safe for a variation or two we have a pretty clear idea of what he does. DIane controls earth and can seemingly turn herself into iron and presumably other materials. Ban has the ability to steal things, be they physical or abstract. Gowther can attack and target the mind in a variety of ways. They all use their weapons to draw out their abilities and use more of their power and ideally their weapons have good synergy with their abilities. Meliodas works exceptioally well with a sword, a hammer is extremely fitting for diane's creation, gowther has a weapon which greatly expands the range and effectiveness of his ability (although it does not seem to actually make illusions stronger).

And then we have king. His weapon so far does not seem to be meant to maximize the effectiveness of his disaster ability but its rather the opposite. His disaster ability seems to be meant to bring forth the qualities of the sacred tree and chastiefol itself seems to simply be a weaponized version of the tree. Helbram was able to use the sacred tree to attack however he never actually showed the stuff king did. His usage of the tree seems more rudimentary than that of king and chastiefol. While king is attacking with the speak and whatnot hellbram is using the roots... And helbram never showed a barrier or the ability to turn people into stone.

We know remarkably little about what king's disaster actually does. The only cannon use of it alone so far is the time when he triggered cain's rheumatism however that is still somewhat ambiguous even if it makes perfect sense with an ability called disaster. Then we have the different forms of chastiefol. The forms themselves all seem to be directly related to a characterstic of the tree itself so a direct link to disaster or at least the method by which king's disaster enhances the qualities of the tree is hard to ascertain. Lets look at each form.

The pillow: Well, no clue about how this relates to disaster or the tree. Maybe its something like moss, as the bear form though.
Spear: Perhaps can be linked to the roots or branches of the tree.
Form 2, guardian: The form is directly related to the moss of the tree or something of the sort as explained when fighting the demonized former holy knight.
Form 3, Fossilization: Well, I am not sure of how this is a treeish thing. If anything it would make sense the ability has more to do with disaster than the tree itself. Perhaps the tree has the ability to make things into parts of nature or something.
Form 4, Sunflower: Obviously related to the tree. Not sure how exactly disaster would synergize with this. Maybe it helps with making them beams or making them more destructive?
Form 5, increase: The most common and versatile form. Kinda makes me think about a weaponized version of the leaves of the tree.
Form 8, Pollen garden: A defensive variety of an ability of the tree itself. Its kinda hard to picture something called disaster synergizing with this. It would seem like disaster should do the opposite of the healing that supposedly takes place here. Perhaps that is the reason the healing is slow, king's disaster does not heal, it just screws over the enemy (like with a condition like rheumatism).

Even then, the idea of king using the disaster on his weapon is a tad weird.... I mean, wouldn't that end up causing a disaster on the weapon thus harming it? So... what does everyone think? What exactly is it that king's ability does? Where does his ability end and start with in regards to chastiefol? Will it ever be explained?

 

[HereNThere]

A truly intriguing question. As you've already mentioned, everyone's abilities are pretty straight forward and their names pretty much tell you what the ability does, except for King's. My best guess is what you've already mentioned. King's ability seems to just activate/bring out/exacerbate the qualities of something, whether it be medical problems or qualities of magic foliage. Hell, Geera herself mentioned that to be the case. Most of the power then lies within the Chastiefol and King's Disaster is one of the only way's to maximize the weapon's potential. But it is a bit strange that the focus is on the tree's abilities when King himself mentioned that the Sacred Weapons are supposed to amplify their powers. There is probably more to Disaster than King's willing to show.

Also, during the flashback, he had used a rose to "kill" Helbram and erase Diane's memory. Do you think that might be related to Disaster?

 

[kkck]

Ahh, I didn't consider his disaster might be related to those roses. Could be but it would still be a tad weird. Well, I guess death by rose kinda can make sense with disaster in the loosest of ways but it is still weird. My impression when I read the chapter was that the rose probably had something to do with the tree or fairy's ability to control or link to nature. Considering disaster is a cannon thing while fairies controlling nature in general is not cannon I guess disaster at the moment does make for a more simple explanation. Still, the range of disaster could do based on the 1 confirmed time we saw it and the 2 hypothetical ones would kinda suggest king's ability disaster is to do just about anything at all. I mean, we have king using it to trigger a disease, to kill a fairy and to make someone forget... There does not seem to be a correlation between those as far as I can tell at least. Unless the ability is by itself ambiguous enough that what happened was a disaster to cain's bones, a disaster to helbram's chest and a disaster to diane's memory.

Ahh, there is also another ability of king's I did not mention in the OP. Perhaps it is the most subtle ability which the manga has implied so far. King is damn fabulous. The guy made clothes for himself and diane... And at least in king's case his clothes seem to have lasted for hundreds of years. Maybe diane's clothes grow with her too because she has the same outfit as when a girl. So it would seem that king's power, one that surpasses the great holy knights and protected the fairy kingdom for god knows how long, is only outmatched by his fashion sense. Or something.

 

[HereNThere]

That's something I considered. However I figured that that would nearly be infringing on Diane's Creation, although she specializes more in earth than plants, is still too similar and close for my taste. Though it would make the Diane/King relationship closer on a thematically level, plants needing the earth to support them and help them grow and what not, but I digress. You are most likely correct about it being a basic fairy ability as Elaine has shown the same power. Plus we just saw Helbram do the same thing. Speaking of which, how far does the Sacred Tree's roots extend?

I also considered the fact that Disaster is simply a chaotic ability that could effect anything. But, as you stated in you initial post, it isn't really supported by the manga as Chastiefol focuses on using abilities from the tree. I do like your idea of Disaster being able to wreck havoc on something of King's choosing, but again, how is Chastiefol increasing that ability? And if Disaster is indeed that kind of ability, then that fear that the human's had for him is well warranted.

As for the clothes I assumed that King taught her how to make her own clothes and he let her keep that memory. Then again, that's me assuming that the material he made it out of, Dusk Bison, doesn't have any properties that would allow it to grow out as much as it needs.

 

[kkck]

You mean the flower thing would be similar to diane's creation? I am not sure how they can be similar, one controls earth and the other would be influencing plants. It does not look similar at all....

Well, the first point here was that chastiefol was not about maximizing disaster but rather disaster maximizing the effectiveness of the tree.... Based on what we know disaster is something that should be present in every move we have seen king perform however every move we have seen should to begin with be something that the tree was already capable of. The whole thing gets a tad weirder if we consider that chastiefol is also a weaponized version of the tree itself so what it can do is just based on what the tree can do but not necessarily exactly the same. Helbram never had a chance to win this. Supposedly he has less power than king, was able to summon less power from the king, his ability did not have the synergy with the tree that king had and to boot helbram only had access to the regular tree, not the weaponized version of the tree..... Anyways, back to king, I guess the big question is whether king can actually use chastiefol (and perhaps its different forms) to do the opposite of what he is doing which is what everyone else does. Is it possible to use chastiefol to maximize the effect of disaster? If he can trigger disease and other conditions in people it actually sounds a tad more useful than most of the stuff he usually does....

I doubt extension is an issue here. As far as we know the tree is not even properly in the human world. From what I recall it is either in the fairy world or between the fairy and human world...

 

[HereNThere]

When I mentioned the rose, I meant the lethality he possessed while using it against Helbram and the memory wipe he did to Diane, not plant specifically plant influence. And I don't really mean similar to Creation, just sharing the same theme of earth nature manipulation. I'm probably not explaining it as clearly as I can. I know plants and earth are two different things for the most part, and plant influence isn't even in the same ballpark as Creation, but I still see them as something that relate to each other. But it is interesting that both races can naturally manipulate nature now that I think about it. Hmm, Demons=Fire, Fairies=Plants, and Giants=Earth. Sounds like a topic for another day.

I understood and agreed with your first point, I was just going off your theory of Disaster causing mini disasters of King's choosing and wondering how Chastiefol was increasing that ability if that were the case.

An increase in an ability to trigger disease and whatnot would be a rather dangerous ability on that large a scale, especially considering how powerful King is without using this theoretical form. That sounds like something King would keep as a trump card as he doesn't need that much power for the time being. That'd be incredible if he still wasn't using his full power and can still match a person who is supposedly on the level of Great Holy Knight. That would definitely make for a great power up later on down the line when the foes become tougher.

Let me ask you this, what do you think of Chastiefol getting destroyed down the line, either forcing King to find a new Sacred Weapon or forging a new one (potentially using the seed Elaine gave Ban)? You think this would possibly put more focus on Disaster?

That makes sense about the tree. I wonder if King can control them as well? He probably could.

 

[kkck]

Ahh ok, I see what you mean. To be fair though, most abilities around seem to be about controlling some aspect of nature. Gilthunder has his thunderbolt, hauser and perhaps a few other holy knights have wind-like abilities, some other guy has also shown control over plants, we have seen control over ice... Most abilities seem to be like that overall. Also, the consideration in regards to abilities is that when it comes to fairies they too have their own unique skillsets as humans do. We never saw elaine's ability but helbram had his link and king has his disaster. However it does kinda seem like their strongest power is manipulating the sacred tree.... It would seem like the whole thing about having a particular bond to an element applies mostly to giants if we consider that.

I am not sure if in context it would actually work as a powerup. Well, to a great degree the manga continues because the sins at large either willingly or unwillingly do not use their full power against enemies however in this particular case the situation would take an entire new degree of absurd. It would seem like the greatest power of the fairies is to draw power from the tree and their power depends on how much power they can draw. King won specifically because the amount of power he could draw from the tree was greater than what helbram could. Now, the issue here would be whether the power king could use solely with his ability while being used by a sacred treasure is able to match the power of the chastiefol enhanced by disaster. I guess that at the very least the whole thing could add a dimension to king's abilities. There might be a situation where chastiefol is for whatever reason useless and his disaster ability alone is able to do something.

 

[HereNThere]

I am not sure if in context it would actually work as a powerup. Well, to a great degree the manga continues because the sins at large either willingly or unwillingly do not use their full power against enemies however in this particular case the situation would take an entire new degree of absurd. It would seem like the greatest power of the fairies is to draw power from the tree and their power depends on how much power they can draw. King won specifically because the amount of power he could draw from the tree was greater than what helbram could. Now, the issue here would be whether the power king could use solely with his ability while being used by a sacred treasure is able to match the power of the chastiefol enhanced by disaster. I guess that at the very least the whole thing could add a dimension to king's abilities. There might be a situation where chastiefol is for whatever reason useless and his disaster ability alone is able to do something.

Yeah, maybe I shouldn't have used the word power up, but something like that would help him in the future if there are going to be opponents as strong as and potentially stronger than the Great Holy Knights. I mean, Dreyfus alone took on two Sins with Sacred Treasures and nearly came out on top. I'm sure they probably have more powers up their sleeve and may still be holding back, but still, that was to close for comfort.

I hope you last scenario comes true as I'm super curious as the potential of Disaster and how it works in conjunction with a Sacred Weapon. Plus, I'd like to see that King wouldn't be totally weak without Chastifol in comparison to, well, everyone else. He's a bit lacking we he doesn't use it.

 

[kkck]

Well, the situation with dreyfus beating the sins is a tad murky... I mean, diane had already taken damage from gilthunder, hauser and helbram, each of whom is apparently significantly stronger than guila or jericho. Based on what we have seen gilthunder or hauser would actually beat guila and jericho with relative ease at least and helbram would beat hauser or gilthunder with extreme ease.... Diane took damage from the 3 of them when she could not defend herself and from what we saw even guila and jericho had it in them to knock out a sin when they could not defend themselves (take meliodas or ban during the byzel events). For all we know diane would have been able to put up a better fight if she had not taken that much damage from the start. As for the gowther bit, we still don't know what exactly happened there. There is still a very real possibility that there was some external help involved there. Even then, I would call the fight at least a tie considering dreyfus was not even able to land the killing blow on a half dead unconscious gowther.

I guess the big question would be whether king has actually developed his disaster so as to be able to use it freely like that... Even helbram ended up relying on the tree when he was serious.... Well, he did ultimately use his ability and not the tree (which is weird) although at that point helbram had already lost (he barely put up a fight from then on).

 

[HereNThere]

I had counted Diane because, although she was outnumbered and injured, her ability in conjunction with Gideon was still effective enough to nearly end Helbram, who had to use Link to survive the blow and sacrificed several Holy Knights. Dreyfus, on the other hand, took the same move without much fuss. From that scene, it seems like, even if it was just one-on-one, Dreyfus would've been able to handle her alone anyhow.

I'll agree with the tie with Gowther because I did somehow forget about that shadow in Dreyfus's mind. Reading it again, Gowther would have probably come out on top, but I assume Dreyfus would have still been alive.

 

[kkck]

Well, dreyfus blocked one attack which was not necessarily her strongest one. It is impressive in the sense that it was the first time in the manga an attack from a fully powered sin had been blocked however it does not necessarily say dreyfus is necessarily the strongest one if we consider the damage diane had already taken and the position she was in. How would dreyfus deal with, say, a mountain being thrown at him? Dreyfus has a decent bit of power, that is unquestionable, however his power does not actually seem to cover large ares but rather he deals heavy damage in small and concentrated areas. I wouldn't rule out diane against a great holy knight just yet.

 

[HereNThere]

One attack yes, but it was still a Sin's move with a Sacred Treasure. I don't consider Dreyfus the strongest one, but he represents a threat that matches the Sin and could potentially overcome them if they aren't careful and, as I said earlier, as the series progresses, I expect more people of his and Hendricksen's caliber challenging the Sins. I didn't take Diane's damage into account as I saw no reason for her injuries to impede her power with her Sacred Weapon. Sure, if she used Mother Catastrophe, it could have potentially been a different story, but then again, we don't know what Dreyfus has up his sleeves as well.

I should also apologize as I didn't mean to have us go off topic and talk about this. We should probably move this discussion to your other thread.

 

[kkck]

I would think the damage diane took would definitely be something that can get in the way of using her full strength. Taking damage like she did should affect her stamina and available strength the same way it would anyone else (well, she is more durable than humans but still). By the end of it she was so hurt that she could not even use her gideon, just look at her against helbram.

As for dreyfus actually matching the sins, I still think he might just be a tad short. Just look at the king bit this chapter. Helbram started the fight with a power that supposedly matched the great holy knights. From what point onward he pummeled king and used every dirty trick he had to get to him. Then when it came down to it king won the fight with seemingly relative ease by simply.... willing himself to use more of his available power. Helbram even used the holy knights entire power to add it to his own and even then king got what seemed like a relatively easy victory at that point. Basically king showed power that easily surpassed the great holy knight. So we have the diane situation which is still murky IMO, gowther seemingly had already won against dreyfus until that thing appeared and king beating a power which was at least on par with the great holy knight's. Meliodas being stronger than dreyfus is a given. Heck, it would be a massacre.... Ban has his immortality and who knows what his ability would be like at the level of a sacred treasure....

 

[HereNThere]

Yeah, I just don't agree with the Diane bit. Against Helbram and the "Dragon Castle" technique she managed to whip out "Ground Gladius" and send Helbram flying. No struggle. She struggled with Dreyfus while her Ground Gladius was held in place by his power. She wasn't struggling to hold Gideon at all here. It was only after this bit she was mortally injured by two "Pierces" and "Pulverize". If she used "Ground Gladius" at this point, I'd agree that there may have been a potential loss in power and effectiveness, but she used it before she was near death.

Keep in mind, that measurement was from the perspective of a New Generation Holy Knight of unknown rank (probably low) and a Platinum ranked Holy Knight. Two people who I doubt really know the true depths of a Great Holy Knight's power.

King's victory was easy, but Helbram wasn't a Great Holy Knight. Look at Helbram's fight with Demon Meliodas. There, he used the power of all the Knights again and still couldn't do anything against Meliodas' growing power. Yet, the moment Hendricksen added a bit of his power, Helbram took out Meliodas with one shot. I doubt Helbram is really comparable to the true Great Holy Knights. If he was, I'm sure he'd have the rank to go with the power. Great Holy Knights should be a complete match against the Sins. Dreyfus included. Like the Sins, I'm sure we haven't seen everything he has to offer. Being the main character, I'd agree that Meliodas is probably stronger than Dreyfus. Plus Gowther has a super troublesome ability that I can't imagine even his allies getting out of, so he's a given to. But the remaining 3 we know of are fair game in my opinion.

I know this is super off topic, but since you mentioned it, I imagine Ban's Sacred Weapon in conjuntion with Snatch may increase in range and area of effect. It may also allow for permanent theft. Then again, that's assuming it doesn't work in the way King's Disaster works with Chastiefol.

 

[kkck]

I doubt permanent theft is an option. It would be too hax. My guess is that he would be able to steal more in one go, perhaps even completely drain the strength of an enemy at once.

My point about helbram was that his power was specifically said to be on par with that of a great holy knight though. Helbram, like the sins, was some dude of absurd power who had trouble with his enemies because he could not be bothered to actually go all out. While fighting in his human form helbram is basically limiting his power significantly, to a mere fraction of the whole thing. I doubt the transformed meliodas would have presented a challenge if he had actually gone all out. Melidoas at that point probably had more raw power than anyone we had seen before however without a weapon he would have never actually been able to use that power to its full potential.

 

[HereNThere]

Again, that was said by two people who probably don't know the depth of power of a true Great Holy Knight. I don't recall it being said his power was held back by a significant degree, much less to a fraction of his total power. We don't know by how much he kept his power in check. That being said, we don't know how Helbram compares to Hendricksen and by how much his bit of power added to Helbram's during their fight. If what he added made Helbram as strong as he was now, then yeah, I'll concede to the fact that he would have beaten Meliodas, but I still stand by what I said, If Helbram truly had the power, he should have had the rank. I'm sure there is a reason he doesn't. I'm willing to admit that I'm possibly wrong and Helbram did indeed have the power comparable of that to a true Great Holy Knight, but as it stands now, I'm assuming he is weaker than them and they have a much more power. I'd just hate to think that the Sins are that much stronger than the Great Holy Knights.

Thinking about it now, I should clarify. I don't think Helbram matches up to Dreyfus or Hendricksen specifically. He can have the strength expected of a Great Holy Knight, but in comparison to those two, he is weaker.

 

[kkck]

They were feeling his power, I don't see any particular reason for us to think they were wrong on that at least in terms of pure volume of power. Otherwise the assumption would be that they said that with nothing to base that on (in spite of us knowing they can feel power and they just fought alongside and against a great holy knight) which does not make sense. King specifically said helbram could not use his full power while in human form and the difference in power was quite drastic based on what we saw. Helbram went from being easily toyed around by king to toying around with king until king bothered to use more of his power. That, alone with helbram being compared with a great holy knight upon transforming, suggests the difference between the two forms was quite large. The manga has made the point time and time again that the sins are basically the strongest dudes around. Not one of them has ever been beaten in a fair fight just yet and there is a reason for that, in a fair fight they are inhuman monsters fighting against, well, just humans. As far as we know so far meliodas, diane and king at least have been fighting for hundreds of years. Gowther is apparently not human either and odds are he is also ancient. Ban is 40 years old but he does not seem to lag behind the other sins, he actually bested meliodas up until the demonic transformation. I guess escanor and merlin are still up there though... Even in dreyfus' flashback we saw that only the sins were thought to be comparable to zarathras who was supposed to be the strongest by quite a bit. Based on what we have seen anyways there is little reason for us to think that a great holy knight is even a somewhat adequate enemy for at least meliodas and king. Meliodas already blasted a nation along with its holy knights into oblivion. King was stopping wars on his own against nations before chastiefol... chastiefol presumably made him stronger. Gowther has virtually no offensive power and he still managed to take out dreyfus safe for whatever that intruder was. Its not that of a stretch that the other sins are in a similar league (or that diane would beat dreyfus in a fight were she does not take damage from 3 holy knights beforehand).

Thinking about chastiefol, I wonder what other forms it could have. We saw helbram using the roots of the tree so shouldn't chastiefol have an equivalent to that? There should be a form that can actually transform into roots or vines.... What about the trunk? I am guessing the trunk of the tree has its own properties so there should be a form of it that takes advantage of that.

 

[HereNThere]

With this latest chapter, there isn't much that I can argue with. I knew the Sins were the strongest knights, but I thought that the Great Holy Knights would be somewhat comparable or a threat of some sort. I'm a bit disappointed that that doesn't seem to be the case.

I had assumed that Chastiefol was a constructed from the trunk of the tree. I would be surprised if it wasn't and the trunk of the tree had it's own properties unique to itself. I wonder how was Chastiefol constructed. And how did the King of Liones get it?

 

[kkck]

Well, the weapon itself was forged from the tree, I can't really say if the exact part from which it was forged actually makes a difference here. The spear itself has never actually been attributed a part of form so it is hard to say... I always thought that if it did represent something it would be the the branches although the trunk of the tree would make sense too. I wonder why the author simply just gives the numbers to each form as he uses them, there are at least 3 forms which don't seem to stand for anything. I am guessing that the pillow is form one as form two is the bear that seems to be made out of the pillow and the spear is form 6 or 7....

 

[Beatrice]

I'm guessing Disaster is gonna be something like Oberon and Titania from Shakespeare's a Midnight Summer's Dream.

Therefore the winds, piping to us in vains,
As in revenge, have suck'd up from the sea
Contagious fogs; which falling in the land
Have every pelting river made so proud
That they have overborne their continents:
The ox hath therefore stretch'd his yoke in vain,
The ploughman lost his sweat, and the green corn
Hath rotted ere his youth attain'd a beard;
The fold stands empty in the drowned field,
And crows are fatted with the murrion flock;
The nine men's morris is fill'd up with mud,
And the quaint mazes in the wanton green
For lack of tread are undistinguishable:
The human mortals want their winter here;
No night is now with hymn or carol blest:
Therefore the moon, the governess of floods,
Pale in her anger, washes all the air,
That rheumatic diseases do abound:
And thorough this distemperature we see
The seasons alter: hoary-headed frosts
Far in the fresh lap of the crimson rose,
And on old Hiems' thin and icy crown
An odorous chaplet of sweet summer buds
Is, as in mockery, set: the spring, the summer,
The childing autumn, angry winter, change
Their wonted liveries, and the mazed world,
By their increase, now knows not which is which:
And this same progeny of evils comes
From our debate, from our dissension;
We are their parents and original.

Note, this is the power of Fairy Royalties in the work.
It even mentions the Rheumatic Disease.