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Hi guys!
So here is a thread dedicated to Kouen. I know there have already been lots of discussions and debates about him in many other threads but seeing how controversial the man is, I am quite surprised he hasn’t had his own dedicated thread so far. So feel free to say anything you want.
My point is trying to show that Kouen is not the bad guy of the manga as many people think he is. And I especially want to clear out some crimes he is accused of, which were never ever stated in the manga (and it never fails to annoy me when someone brings it up !). So please, when you are stating something, show us the pages, the examples which you extract your information from.
Watch out, this is going to be looooong and goooood (and I probably forgot some points).
EDIT : Ok this turns out to be awfully long, I am very sorry (I am sure I have never ever had as much inspiration for any of my uni’s works)
Basically what do we know for sure about his past? He admired Hakutoku and Hakuyuu, and said himself that he wanted to fight by their side. He was born in a military nation, which was built over the unification of three countries at war.
So now speculation time. As he loved and respected the Haku family, I understand why he would try to perpetuate their wishes, which was to unify the world. When you’ve experienced one method that has been working, why not use it again ? That is what Kouen did : invading other countries to unify them later.
Back to the facts, what we know is that Hakutoku was exploiting the two other countries’ weakness, which was basically the fight there was between one another. Now, what do we know about Kouen’s methods:
- Balbadd : exploiting the already existent economic weakness by introducing their own Kou money.
- Kouga tribe : diplomatic discussions, no war (and pleaaaaase, Ryosai was a dissident whom methods were not approved by Hakuei and who even rebelled against her in the end. He is clearly not representative of what was supposed to be done and discussed with the Kouga Tribe in the first place)
Then the Kou empire invades the conquered countries and imposes its own culture.
Let’s stop here for the next few lines. I know this is a cultural genocide. I don’t approve that. HOWEVER, it is no genocide of an entire people. The only people who were killed were soldiers, because yes soldiers die in war. But as far as we know, no population has been especially targeted; they haven’t killed women or children. They usually want to improve the life of the conquered populations : wasn’t that true with the Kouga Clan (more security, no enslavement) ? With Balbadd (no more starvation, accommodation for everyone, work too even though it is imposed) ?
Now, so far, I have said that Kouen brings war to other countries and he imposes the Kou culture. He even develops slavery by exporting the system.
BUT, he and Koumei are looking at the future when they are doing all of this. They KNOW that what they are doing is seen as wrong at the moment, however they are aiming for a brighter future. Does it mean that it excuses everything they are doing ? No, certainly not. However the generation living right now will cry of having their culture destroyed and taken from them, their children will cry too, but their grandchildren will have forgotten about the past already. Zassan for example was born within the Kou Empire, he won’t understand why Hassan doesn’t like the current system. Little by little everything fades away.
I think their way of doing and thinking is very veryyyyy interesting and was never explored before, that is why I am quite curious about their method. If the same thing were to happen in our world, I would be the first one to say it is wrong, but still I understand the logic of it and it is very clever… But men won’t swallow up their pride for the happiness of an entire world, so someone has to force it on them.
Oh and even if you think that what Kouen is doing is not good, it is still great : unifying half of a world asks for charisma, strength and intelligence. He kept that going for about 10 years, and we haven’t known of any big rebellion so far (except Hakuryuu) so it seems that most of the populations were ok with their fate. Also, why would Al Thamen need to go to Magnostadt or Balbadd to create black rukh if the people within the Kou Empire were so unhappy with the current government or their way of living ?
Talking about Al Thamen, it constitutes a powerful organization, why wouldn’t he use them? He did not know what they were up to before the summit so there was nothing to reproach him before. Now he still decided to use them even when he knew what they were aiming for. I think that part is showing us one of his flaws : he is over confident in his abilities. He probably thinks he can deal with them when the time comes.
There is also the fact that Al Thamen had too much importance within the Kou Empire to kick their ass out now. And I think you cannot kill the Empress that easily (except if your name is Hakuryuu and that you can brainwash most of your followers) even if Kouen obviously doesn’t like Gyokuen.
Concerning Hakuryuu, I already said it all. What I think is that by "I looked down quite a lot on him because of Gyokuen" he refers to the fact that Hakuryuu tried to kill her, his own mother, therefore Kouen discovered his hatred towards her only then and stopped supporting him. There is no real evidence that he did not like Hakuryuu before (he may have even supported him into being the next Emperor), nor there is any evidence that Kouen knew that Gyokuen killed her late husband and sons (he may be suspicious of her but still, how do you expect a mother to kill the people that should be the most dear to her, I think we tend to forget that because we, as readers, + Hakuryuu were the only one who knew who she really was before the summit). If Kouen did not turn Haku into a general, it is probably because he didn't have a Metal Vessel yet. And he may say that "he should have killed him" but he did not. Why? Probably because he still had some hopes to save Hakuryuu, that is why he put Phenex's curse on him 6 months ago: let's face it at that time, Hakuryuu had no chance to kill Gyokuen, we all know that. So it was better to prevent Haku to go into a suicide campaign against her by putting the Phenex's curse.
Coming to what I like the most about him : his personality and his interaction with the other characters. He is serious, usually calm, sometimes blunt, he is straightforward (oh yeees, his best characteristic), and he cares about his brothers and family. I think it is one of the only thing we can be sure of when it comes to his links to the other characters. Here are some of his best moments IMO when he showed us who he really is : Sinbad, Alibaba, Koumei, Kouha (This is the feeling Othaka wanted us to have : we were all expecting him to be quite unhappy there, weren’t we? But he healed Kouha. That is one of the most representative moment of who he is).
Now Kouen certainly has many bad sides. He is very very selfish I think, ready to do anything to achieve his goals and that is quite scary because we don’t know what his limits are.
The end (now I wish you the best of luck to read all of my essay, if you are brave enough). I feel so light and free now, all of this had to come out again, but at once this time.
So here is a thread dedicated to Kouen. I know there have already been lots of discussions and debates about him in many other threads but seeing how controversial the man is, I am quite surprised he hasn’t had his own dedicated thread so far. So feel free to say anything you want.
My point is trying to show that Kouen is not the bad guy of the manga as many people think he is. And I especially want to clear out some crimes he is accused of, which were never ever stated in the manga (and it never fails to annoy me when someone brings it up !). So please, when you are stating something, show us the pages, the examples which you extract your information from.
Watch out, this is going to be looooong and goooood (and I probably forgot some points).
EDIT : Ok this turns out to be awfully long, I am very sorry (I am sure I have never ever had as much inspiration for any of my uni’s works)
Basically what do we know for sure about his past? He admired Hakutoku and Hakuyuu, and said himself that he wanted to fight by their side. He was born in a military nation, which was built over the unification of three countries at war.
So now speculation time. As he loved and respected the Haku family, I understand why he would try to perpetuate their wishes, which was to unify the world. When you’ve experienced one method that has been working, why not use it again ? That is what Kouen did : invading other countries to unify them later.
Back to the facts, what we know is that Hakutoku was exploiting the two other countries’ weakness, which was basically the fight there was between one another. Now, what do we know about Kouen’s methods:
- Balbadd : exploiting the already existent economic weakness by introducing their own Kou money.
- Kouga tribe : diplomatic discussions, no war (and pleaaaaase, Ryosai was a dissident whom methods were not approved by Hakuei and who even rebelled against her in the end. He is clearly not representative of what was supposed to be done and discussed with the Kouga Tribe in the first place)
Then the Kou empire invades the conquered countries and imposes its own culture.
Let’s stop here for the next few lines. I know this is a cultural genocide. I don’t approve that. HOWEVER, it is no genocide of an entire people. The only people who were killed were soldiers, because yes soldiers die in war. But as far as we know, no population has been especially targeted; they haven’t killed women or children. They usually want to improve the life of the conquered populations : wasn’t that true with the Kouga Clan (more security, no enslavement) ? With Balbadd (no more starvation, accommodation for everyone, work too even though it is imposed) ?
Now, so far, I have said that Kouen brings war to other countries and he imposes the Kou culture. He even develops slavery by exporting the system.
BUT, he and Koumei are looking at the future when they are doing all of this. They KNOW that what they are doing is seen as wrong at the moment, however they are aiming for a brighter future. Does it mean that it excuses everything they are doing ? No, certainly not. However the generation living right now will cry of having their culture destroyed and taken from them, their children will cry too, but their grandchildren will have forgotten about the past already. Zassan for example was born within the Kou Empire, he won’t understand why Hassan doesn’t like the current system. Little by little everything fades away.
I think their way of doing and thinking is very veryyyyy interesting and was never explored before, that is why I am quite curious about their method. If the same thing were to happen in our world, I would be the first one to say it is wrong, but still I understand the logic of it and it is very clever… But men won’t swallow up their pride for the happiness of an entire world, so someone has to force it on them.
Oh and even if you think that what Kouen is doing is not good, it is still great : unifying half of a world asks for charisma, strength and intelligence. He kept that going for about 10 years, and we haven’t known of any big rebellion so far (except Hakuryuu) so it seems that most of the populations were ok with their fate. Also, why would Al Thamen need to go to Magnostadt or Balbadd to create black rukh if the people within the Kou Empire were so unhappy with the current government or their way of living ?
Talking about Al Thamen, it constitutes a powerful organization, why wouldn’t he use them? He did not know what they were up to before the summit so there was nothing to reproach him before. Now he still decided to use them even when he knew what they were aiming for. I think that part is showing us one of his flaws : he is over confident in his abilities. He probably thinks he can deal with them when the time comes.
There is also the fact that Al Thamen had too much importance within the Kou Empire to kick their ass out now. And I think you cannot kill the Empress that easily (except if your name is Hakuryuu and that you can brainwash most of your followers) even if Kouen obviously doesn’t like Gyokuen.
Concerning Hakuryuu, I already said it all. What I think is that by "I looked down quite a lot on him because of Gyokuen" he refers to the fact that Hakuryuu tried to kill her, his own mother, therefore Kouen discovered his hatred towards her only then and stopped supporting him. There is no real evidence that he did not like Hakuryuu before (he may have even supported him into being the next Emperor), nor there is any evidence that Kouen knew that Gyokuen killed her late husband and sons (he may be suspicious of her but still, how do you expect a mother to kill the people that should be the most dear to her, I think we tend to forget that because we, as readers, + Hakuryuu were the only one who knew who she really was before the summit). If Kouen did not turn Haku into a general, it is probably because he didn't have a Metal Vessel yet. And he may say that "he should have killed him" but he did not. Why? Probably because he still had some hopes to save Hakuryuu, that is why he put Phenex's curse on him 6 months ago: let's face it at that time, Hakuryuu had no chance to kill Gyokuen, we all know that. So it was better to prevent Haku to go into a suicide campaign against her by putting the Phenex's curse.
Coming to what I like the most about him : his personality and his interaction with the other characters. He is serious, usually calm, sometimes blunt, he is straightforward (oh yeees, his best characteristic), and he cares about his brothers and family. I think it is one of the only thing we can be sure of when it comes to his links to the other characters. Here are some of his best moments IMO when he showed us who he really is : Sinbad, Alibaba, Koumei, Kouha (This is the feeling Othaka wanted us to have : we were all expecting him to be quite unhappy there, weren’t we? But he healed Kouha. That is one of the most representative moment of who he is).
Now Kouen certainly has many bad sides. He is very very selfish I think, ready to do anything to achieve his goals and that is quite scary because we don’t know what his limits are.
The end (now I wish you the best of luck to read all of my essay, if you are brave enough). I feel so light and free now, all of this had to come out again, but at once this time.
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