MAD about Madhouse Criticisms

[Kamen Rider Dragon]

I'll just leave this here...

Spoiler: I type this yesterday....

My memories may mix some things .....

first of all, the anime started so fast.... I understand why they ommited Kite (since MH already back it up from some press announcements)... But the tension between Mito and Gon? why ? also, the surroundings house designs... sure we still see the resto there but the tree house, wasnt it supposed to be near the forest??? Thats the same house (I think ) where Ging and Gon grew up (changing the surroundings and design suddenly give me a FMA nostalgia feel - even though the two are different and HxH is first ) It made me feel like Gon didnt grow up with those surroundings.. he used to play in the forest right?. this is pretty much important coz the skills he'll be using the hunter exam arc are the fruits of that... also the how hard Mito lies to Gon ... and I miss the bears... It make me feel like Gon and Mito are not close enough... and the recap episodes where Gon writes to Mito

about violence
Why used butterflies??? (ep 03) doesnt look good , in my eyes... blood will be better... (but we know MH use the excuse this is a Sunday show , and it need to be censored... but since people dont like this and they had a lot of fan mail complaints they already change - but I'm happy coz thats for the better...)
and also for not doing the Johannes scene properly (as based on the manga )... I wonder why Mad House has get away with the massacre thing in YS arc, if they think they could get away now, why didnt they think of it while the series just started...
why they so afraid before? now they are bold in doing more violence...

Wait is that even confirmed that's the reason they turned up the violence? I don't think so

---------- Post added at 02:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:37 PM ----------

I actually meant his entire character. A large part of the character comes from the voice: the character's vocal mannerisms, his tone, the speed of speech, the choice of words, so on. The manga portrays Hisoka as a murderous psychopath with lust for battle, yes, but he is also impish, devilishly sadistic at times, mockingly arrogant, boastful with an intentional degree of flair; and so on. The aspect that isn't portrayed accurately imo is the impishness. Hisoka CAN be playful. Look at the way he behaves at the

Spoiler

Election arc

, for instance. Also note how how his speech in the manga is denoted by the four suits which is a definite indication of his somewhat whimsical nature and the voice that expresses it.

The two aspects that the 1999 anime got which imo the 2011 anime did not was the sadism (those laughs, my god) and the whimsy.

Perhaps the source material did not directly call for 1999 Hisoka's (strikingly peculiar) voice. But it's one possible interpretation.

The 2011 focuses on the battle lust. His voice is cloying, contrived; contrived in its deliberateness and speed of articulation. Several dimensions of Hisoka - as described above - are missing. For that reason i think the characterization isn't accurate to Togashi's Hisoka. Not that accuracy really bothers me but i brought it up in the spirit of this thread.

Everything you said is what Hisoka is in the Madhouse version. Just look at him in the Heavens Arena arc. I think you grasping at straws here.

 

[mrsticky005]

I could be wrong but I'm only using cp now....so I dont have time to re-read...

Spoiler

and I forgot... what happened to Ging's hunter licence? Wasn't that supposed to be loan in the pawnshop???

without that item.... there's already conflict... and I think they forgot Satotz fanboyism to Ging... wasnt even that mentioned???

What's cp?

Also Gon loans his own hunter license. He never uses Ging's.

 

[mousiehamster]

Wait is that even confirmed that's the reason they turned up the violence? I don't think so

---------- Post added at 02:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:37 PM ----------



Everything you said is what Hisoka is in the Madhouse version. Just look at him in the Heavens Arena arc. I think you grasping at straws here.

If you think 2011 Hisoka is accurate to the manga then anybody who says 1999 Killua/Gon is dissimilar to the manga's should pipe down.

p.s. I forgot to mention his theme song in the 2011 adaptation. It's just so Hisoka.

 

[Kamen Rider Dragon]

If you think 2011 Hisoka is accurate to the manga then anybody who says 1999 Killua/Gon is dissimilar to the manga's should pipe down.

p.s. I forgot to mention his theme song in the 2011 adaptation. It's just so Hisoka.

Killua having a double personality very accurate. And Gon crying hurdling under tree is so what Gon would do in the manga

Yes the theme does fit Hisoka, like you said playful and very jester like.

 

[mousiehamster]

Killua having a double personality very accurate. And Gon crying hurdling under tree is so what Gon would do in the manga

Yes the theme does fit Hisoka, like you said playful and very jester like.

You mean the Spanish guitars? You think that fits Hisoka? Really?

Killua does have a duality to him. Just not in the form of an actual double personality (was a filler episode anyway). Gon crying - is that so farfetched? That he couldn't take the humility of defeat? At least the crying episode happened once. Hisoka's personality is portrayed as it is on a consistent basis.

 

[mrsticky005]

If you think 2011 Hisoka is accurate to the manga then anybody who says 1999 Killua/Gon is dissimilar to the manga's should pipe down.

p.s. I forgot to mention his theme song in the 2011 adaptation. It's just so Hisoka.

Not really. 1999 Killua and Manga Killua are contrary to one another. 1999 Killua had
a split personality. Manga Killua does not. That fact alone makes 1999 Killua miles
different from the manga. Though the problems with 1999 Killua do not end there.

On the other hand 2011 Hisoka is by far much more accurate to Manga Hisoka.
He's not a perfect adaptation but neither was the 1999. However a combo
of both I think would be. Where 2011 is unfaithful to Hisoka is Episode 5.
Where 1999 is unfaithful to Hisoka is the lack of Hisoka vs Kastro.
2011 Hisoka fought in self defense whereas in the manga and I'm pretty
sure the 1999 Hisoka sought out people to murder or er "examine".
Also Hisoka in Episode 5 is much more stoic and there is a eerie "gentleness"
to him. While in the manga chapters he was hysterical and homicidal
but yet extremely playful. The problem with the lack of Hisoka vs Kastro
in the 1999 is that the fight was probably the best example of Hisoka's
intellect and strategy. Hisoka isn't just a wild dog but his strategy
is of his own flavor and is a bit unorthodox. The manga and 2011
was able to reflect this part of Hisoka more so than the 1999 was able to.
However much of what was messed up about Hisoka in episode 5 of 2011
was later cancelled out with Zevil Island---Hisoka was no longer stoic.
He was hysterical and bloodthisty just as the manga has him.

Basically if 1999 had Hisoka vs Kastro it would be a perfect Hisoka adaptation

and for 2011 Zevil Island and beyond is a perfect Hisoka adaptation.

Though both have different feel to them.

Also I do think Hisoka's 2011 themes DO in fact reflect his personality.
They ARE just so Hisoka---Even if you meant sarcastically

---------- Post added at 08:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:44 PM ----------

You mean the Spanish guitars? You think that fits Hisoka? Really?

Killua does have a duality to him. Just not in the form of an actual double personality (was a filler episode anyway). Gon crying - is that so farfetched? That he couldn't take the humility of defeat? At least the crying episode happened once. Hisoka's personality is portrayed as it is on a consistent basis.

I do. The theme reminds me of a bullfighter which is very similar to Hisoka.
Consider the following: A bullfighter fights against a bull and bulls are very dangerous.
Hiisoka is ALWAYS seeking "worthy" opponents. Yes he killed the examinees but the Election Arc
shows that such "small fry" eventually bore Hisoka. He needs the more challenging and more dangerous opponent.

Having a duality and a split personality are not the same thing. It may be filler but it was still in the 1999 series.

---------- Post added at 09:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 PM ----------

And another thing on Hisoka being like a bullfighter.

Ever hear the term "bullheaded". It is defined as someone who is foolishly stubborn.

Foolishly stubborn or perhaps...Simple and determined.

Wonder who might fit that role?

 

[mousiehamster]

Not really. 1999 Killua and Manga Killua are contrary to one another. 1999 Killua had
a split personality. Manga Killua does not. That fact alone makes 1999 Killua miles
different from the manga. Though the problems with 1999 Killua do not end there.

He does not have a split personality but Killua does acknowledge that he can be not-himself. Hence Killua's reference to a "normal mode" when comparing his strength with Hanzo and Hisoka at the beginning of the Heaven's Arena arc. Hence that v. particular look when he tore out Jones heart. He is a different person. The manga just didn't elaborate on it. Of course that doesn't mean that he has split personality disorder, but the basis is sort of there. I'm not saying that importing a split personality is therefore the logical thing to do, i'm just arguing that such a portrayal isn't too far off. If you consider it to be then surely so is 2011 Hisoka's.

On the other hand 2011 Hisoka is by far much more accurate to Manga Hisoka.
He's not a perfect adaptation but neither was the 1999. However a combo
of both I think would be. Where 2011 is unfaithful to Hisoka is Episode 5.
Where 1999 is unfaithful to Hisoka is the lack of Hisoka vs Kastro.

By "unfaithful" i mean the character. Not sure how the lack of Kastro does that.

2011 Hisoka fought in self defense whereas in the manga and I'm pretty
sure the 1999 Hisoka sought out people to murder or er "examine".
Also Hisoka in Episode 5 is much more stoic and there is a eerie "gentleness"
to him. While in the manga chapters he was hysterical and homicidal
but yet extremely playful.

The "gentleness" you are talking about is 2011's attempt at making him - oh i don't know, suave in some manner, a kind of self assured smoothness and stability of character. That is supposed to be sexy?(so i've heard).

The problem with the lack of Hisoka vs Kastro
in the 1999 is that the fight was probably the best example of Hisoka's
intellect and strategy.

I hate censorship.

Basically if 1999 had Hisoka vs Kastro it would be a perfect Hisoka adaptation

and for 2011 Zevil Island and beyond is a perfect Hisoka adaptation.

I wouldn't go so far.

Also I do think Hisoka's 2011 themes DO in fact reflect his personality.
They ARE just so Hisoka---Even if you meant sarcastically

---------- Post added at 08:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:44 PM ----------



I do. The theme reminds me of a bullfighter which is very similar to Hisoka.
Consider the following: A bullfighter fights against a bull and bulls are very dangerous.
Hiisoka is ALWAYS seeking "worthy" opponents. Yes he killed the examinees but the Election Arc
shows that such "small fry" eventually bore Hisoka. He needs the more challenging and more dangerous opponent.

Having a duality and a split personality are not the same thing. It may be filler but it was still in the 1999 series.

---------- Post added at 09:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 PM ----------

And another thing on Hisoka being like a bullfighter.

Ever hear the term "bullheaded". It is defined as someone who is foolishly stubborn.

Foolishly stubborn or perhaps...Simple and determined.

Wonder who might fit that role?

I can't say that it fits at all. It only plays in his fights for one thing. It's supposed to characterize how stylishly smart he is but it is far too rhythmic and theatric. Even worse it is ethnic. The association with Gon is also a terrible one: it is not man taming an unrelenting, ferocious beast. It's a bit of a stretch anyway.

 

[mrsticky005]

He does not have a split personality but Killua does acknowledge that he can be not-himself. Hence Killua's reference to a "normal mode" when comparing his strength with Hanzo and Hisoka at the beginning of the Heaven's Arena arc. Hence that v. particular look when he tore out Jones heart. He is a different person. The manga just didn't elaborate on it. Of course that doesn't mean that he has split personality disorder, but the basis is sort of there. I'm not saying that importing a split personality is therefore the logical thing to do, i'm just arguing that such a portrayal isn't too far off. If you consider it to be then surely so is 2011 Hisoka's.

Killua is a liar in the manga which is miles different from a split personality. Killua's acting innocent and cute was an assassin. But what he wanted to be---was normal.
Your analogy doesn't work.

By "unfaithful" i mean the character. Not sure how the lack of Kastro does that.

I explained that in Hisoka vs Kastro it showcases Hisoka unique strategy. It's similar to how the lack of Leorio arm wrestling is in a sense unfaithful to his character.


The "gentleness" you are talking about is 2011's attempt at making him - oh i don't know, suave in some manner, a kind of self assured smoothness and stability of character. That is supposed to be sexy?(so i've heard).

Maybe. I don't think it is necessarily inaccurate.

I hate censorship.

Who doesn't?

I wouldn't go so far.

I would.


I can't say that it fits at all. It only plays in his fights for one thing. It's supposed to characterize how stylishly smart he is but it is far too rhythmic and theatric. Even worse it is ethnic. The association with Gon is also a terrible one: it is not man taming an unrelenting, ferocious beast. It's a bit of a stretch anyway.

Like I said. Bullfighting. Bullfighting is VERY theatrical. And yet also very dangerous What's wrong with it being ethnic?

Bullfighters don't tame bulls. They fight them. Hisoka does not want to tame Gon. He wants to fight him.
Hisoka gets most excited when Gon attacks him ANGRILY. When Gon stubbornly charged Hisoka head on Hisoka got off of it.
Bullfighters try to fight dangerous and angry bulls. Fighting a docile and timid bull would not be as entertaining.

 

[mousiehamster]

Like I said. Bullfighting. Bullfighting is VERY theatrical. And yet also very dangerous What's wrong with it being ethnic?

Bullfighters don't tame bulls. They fight them. Hisoka does not want to tame Gon. He wants to fight him.
Hisoka gets most excited when Gon attacks him ANGRILY. When Gon stubbornly charged Hisoka head on Hisoka got off of it.
Bullfighters try to fight dangerous and angry bulls. Fighting a docile and timid bull would not be as entertaining.

Firstly the association between Hisoka/Gon and bullfighting is a very big stretch in the first place. Secondly the analogy is poor because bullfighters don't get a raging hard on. They fight for glory and the spectacle, mainly to entertain. Hisoka fights for some kind of depraved internal gratification. Totally different. And Gon isn't even half dangerous to Hisoka, nor were any of his opponents when the track was played.

The problem with it being ethnic? Wrong ethnicity!

But forget the analogy, man. You yourself consider that the 1999 Hisoka is v. faithful and would be spot on if it had the Kastro fight. So how can both of them be accurate portrayals when they're so different?

 

[Kamen Rider Dragon]

You mean the Spanish guitars? You think that fits Hisoka? Really?

The Spanish guitars is not relevant. It's spirited, eccentric, playful which like you said is what Hisoka is.

 

[mousiehamster]

The Spanish guitars is not relevant. It's spirited, eccentric, playful which like you said is what Hisoka is.

His theme is some sort of flamenco. Theatrical and passionate. Playful and eccentric? Not really. Strong sense of rhythm comes from the incorporation of dance in this genre of music - hence the theatricality. How this matches Hisoka in his killing sprees is beyond me.

 

[mrsticky005]

Firstly the association between Hisoka/Gon and bullfighting is a very big stretch in the first place. Secondly the analogy is poor because bullfighters don't get a raging hard on. They fight for glory and the spectacle, mainly to entertain. Hisoka fights for some kind of depraved internal gratification. Totally different. And Gon isn't even half dangerous to Hisoka, nor were any of his opponents when the track was played.

The problem with it being ethnic? Wrong ethnicity!

But forget the analogy, man. You yourself consider that the 1999 Hisoka is v. faithful and would be spot on if it had the Kastro fight. So how can both of them be accurate portrayals when they're so different?

His theme is some sort of flamenco. Theatrical and passionate. Playful and eccentric? Not really. Strong sense of rhythm comes from the incorporation of dance in this genre of music - hence the theatricality. How this matches Hisoka in his killing sprees is beyond me.

I don't think it is. Of the course the analogy isn't going to be EXACT. I'm not saying Hisoka IS a bullfighter but that he's LIKE a bullfighter.
Yes, Hisoka DOES fight for his own self gratification. But you don't think he fights for the spectacle? How incredibly wrong you are.

Allow me to cite:


Hisoka's introduction

First Exam Massacre

Hisoka vs Kastro

Hisoka practically steals the show whenever he's on screen or panel. Not theatrical? Preposterous!


I know Gon isn't dangerous to Hisoka. I didn't say he was. However Hisoka WANTS Gon to be dangerous. Bullfighters select the most aggressive
and dangerous young bulls for bullfighting later when their older. Similar to how Hisoka wants to wait until Gon is "ripe".

But Gon is hardly the only person Hisoka wants to fight. In fact it is really more Gon who wants to fight Hisoka.
Hisoka has expressed before he had more interest in fighting Killua than Gon. However who he really wanted to fight is Chrollo and Netero.
Those two characters are incredibly dangerous. Yet Hisoka really wanted to fight them.

What I was saying about Gon is that he is bullheaded.


And I don't see how it is the "wrong" ethnicity. Of course Hisoka isn't Spanish. But then again he's from a fictional universe.

 

[Cinnabar]

Leaving my thoughts here. Sorry to cut in the middle of the debate, but I might forget whatever's on my mind right now if I don't type it, haha.

I think Madhouse is very particular about the characterizations they want to portray. See for example how they handle the fan favorites: Gon, Killua, Hisoka, and Kurapika. I think they understand the characters well enough, hence why the characterizations have been great so far. However, I don't think they are able to show the whole scope of the characters. The thing is, from what I have seen (and I am only basing this on the HxH anime) Madhouse is good at the stuff they want to focus on. If they focus on characterizing Gon through subtlety, they do it well. If they focus on Hisoka's battle-lust, they do it well. If they focus on Kurapika's ticking time bomb inner rage, they do it well.

Now the problem here is that they may, on occasion, focus too much on a particular trait of a character. Hence why, although their characterization is excellent overall, the audience isn't able to see the whole scope of the character. I think MH is spot on with the characterizations they choose to do, but the characters may feel 'lacking' due to omissions or bad direction. Which, I think, is because MH simply didn't focus on some traits of the character. It's like they can show 85% of the character excellently, but the remaining 15% doesn't get the same quality, or is downright ignored, because it wasn't given focus. Change the percentages to how you see fit.

I think this is better though than having the characters be correct 50% of the time, and badly portrayed the other 50% of the time. And really, this is probably the best we'll ever get for an anime adaptation. So this can be as much of a praise as it is a 'criticism', I guess.

I personally have no major complaints thus far on most of the characters though (except maybe a tiny bit on Kurapika - but my complaints are minor enough that it just seems more off than worrisome), but I think this may be the reason why some may feel like MH isn't portraying the character 'right' in certain scenes. /opinion

I hope I am somehow making sense to you. With major characterizations, I think MH is doing excellently. Especially with some of the side characters. I feel the need to mention Kikyo Zoldyck here, because I really think she was done perfectly during the Zoldyck mini-arc. As for omissions and fillers...

I have already said before that I liked the heart scene. I like that change better than the manga. I think I'm just gonna rehash stuff if I explain it. And the fillers never really bothered me. I like the added scenes because they flesh out some of the characters more. Maybe I just appreciate them more because sometimes I didn't take the time to appreciate the side characters in the manga(because there's too many going on for me to notice). So the anime really made me fall in love with those I didn't even notice before.

The pacing at the beginning was alright for me. I think it was perfect actually, until the anime hit Yorknew. The pacing seems a bit off, but still manageable. The music direction either hits or miss, or I just don't notice at all. When done right, it's amazing. When done wrong, it's jarring. So far, I don't have complaints or concerns for the VA's. Except that I hope Paku's VA gets better soon. I wonder how they'll work around that.

I think the violence level is understandable? I mean, I think MH was still testing the waters during the Exam arc. And I think they have the right to be as careful as they were given the time slot, and that they have to do things well enough so that they can get the go sign to go past the initial 45 episode mark. So I think they were still testing things in the beginning. Hence why the violence level went up several notches recently. They're now comfortable with things, and they obviously have the go signal to go past the 45 episode mark. Censorship seems weird sometimes, but sometimes they were also clever. I daresay they are getting better, actually.

As for the other things I personally disliked... Well, I don't like how they handled screentime in Yorknew. They're focusing too much on Kurapika, and not enough on Gon, Killua, Leorio, and Yorknew itself as a place. I'm still giving them a chance to make things better though, as I find it unfair to criticize their worldbuilding when the arc isn't even finished yet. I need to feel like the city is alive. I'm more worried about worldbuilding than anything else.

The extended Troupe scenes don't bother me (I actually liked them). I do wish that Kurapika is a tad more composed, but I think that's more of a nitpick.

I don't like how they excluded Ging's Hunter License. That seems like too important of a detail to leave out. As for Kite, I'm not bothered by his absence. I always thought they didn't show Kite because it's hard to find a VA who would be willing to wait a few arcs' worth of episodes before reappearing again. He has to make sure his schedule is free by then, and MH isn't even initially sure if the anime will get past 45 episodes remember? So yeah, I'm not bothered because I always thought that was the case. And they can always make a flashback arc or something.

Personally, I feel like Kite is more of a plot device even if they put his flashback in the beginning, so my thoughts of him wouldn't change regardless of when he shows up. I don't think his absence changes things too much. I just hope MH does him well though. I appreciated some of the characters more through the anime, and I hope that will also be the case with Kite when he shows up.

Also, as an afterthought, Whale Island and Heaven's Arena get a 10/10 from me, overall.

I apologize for the probably unorganized wall of text. I needed to dump my thoughts.

 

[Demonspeed]

Now the problem here is that they may, on occasion, focus too much on a particular trait of a character.

I agree with most of what you said,especially this.Me,I find MH portrayal excellent,even portrayal of secondary characters(Zushi for example),this is why i don't like what they did to Leorio.I can't forgive that!.

I noticed they focus too much on Kurapika's rage since the start of YS arc but it doesn't bother me,it's just that i find him too talkative(his monologue during ep.40,even if he is thinking,i found that useless) and especially during his discussion with Hisoka.

 

[Cinnabar]

I agree with most of what you said,especially this.Me,I find MH portrayal excellent,even portrayal of secondary characters(Zushi for example),this is why i don't like what they did to Leorio.I can't forgive that!.

I noticed they focus too much on Kurapika's rage since the start of YS arc but it doesn't bother me,it's just that i find him too talkative(his monologue during ep.40,even if he is thinking,i found that useless) and especially during his discussion with Hisoka.

Exactly. I have the same problem with Kurapika too. And I can't say he's acting out of character because being a ticking time bomb on the inside is part of his character, I believe. It's just that I think MH is focusing a tad bit too much on it. Just a tad.

It's why I can't say they got Kurapika's character wrong, 'cause for me, that's still Kurapika. It doesn't necessarily bother me either; just that I found him more... in control of his feelings in the manga.

And, HAHA, I'll be honest. The monologue was so cliche that I found it amusing.

 

[ZonikStrike]

but the tree house, wasnt it supposed to be near the forest???

Umm, if I remember correctly, there was no tree house in manga. It was Nippon filler.

Why used butterflies???

At first I also found that strange... Then Hisoka was getting more and more tricks, magic and such, so I started liking it. And then I found out some unexplained tricks of his in manga (f.e. the card being hidden inside his arm during Kastro battle), so it could be called canon.

If you think 2011 Hisoka is accurate to the manga then anybody who says 1999 Killua/Gon is dissimilar to the manga's should pipe down.

p.s. I forgot to mention his theme song in the 2011 adaptation. It's just so Hisoka.

I disagree. Hisoka 2011 is far more faithful to manga than Gon&Killua 1999. Killua had serious troubles with deciding if killing was right, while Gon was a total goody-two-shoes. Now Hisoka is only not-so-maniac during the first episodes, but then pretty much every side of his personality is adapted right.
And I definitely love his new theme. While his new VA is simply amazing. <3 I find it strange that some prefer his old one.

 

[mrsticky005]

I don't consider the butterflies as censorship as there wasn't really anything TO censor there. Blood is not shown in the manga.
We only get the AFTER image of the guy's severed arms. Considering Hisoka is a "magician" the scene is well within his character.
I think it's really just a matter of personal preference.