Games Mafia Game 92 - Kingdom Rush - END GAME

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Hardy

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I know that feel from shingeki no kyojin we didnt give up at least, take that poo poo mafia.
Well, Raven was 3rd party and you guys didn't have a day pad to talk and save each other in case someone was dying with only 3 votes.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

lmao! AND PPL COMPLAINED WHEN I WAS ONLY ONE AND got myself hostkilled....
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

how is this any different
Key difference is that this wasn't unilateral, I guess. They broke no rules and everyone in the team reached the agreement (whereas Orgz clearly wasn't done yet). On top of that Farf played Panda like a fiddle so the win would be merely mathematical, not really in the spirit of the game.
 

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so am i the only one who didn't fullfill ANY of her conditions and didn't get ANY UPGRADES?
 

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It would have been too unbalanced. Top percentage player as yourself need no access to upgrades, sak
 

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Well, Raven was 3rd party and you guys didn't have a day pad to talk and save each other in case someone was dying with only 3 votes.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---



Key difference is that this wasn't unilateral, I guess. They broke no rules and everyone in the team reached the agreement (whereas Orgz clearly wasn't done yet). On top of that Farf played Panda like a fiddle so the win would be merely mathematical, not really in the spirit of the game.
ah I see. Farf did. mkay
--- Double Post Merged, ---

It would have been too unbalanced. Top percentage player as yourself need no access to upgrades, sak
i can read sarcasm herm fuck you
 

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​
The whole idea of the mechanic was to give every player huge importance in the way the game goes. This can't be accomplished with role list alone, which is where Upgrades and Powers came in. They were very fun to think of, as any role can be improved in some way or other to make it more OP, and Powers being 1-time use and expensive were allowed to be even crazier. The most difficult was calculating how much Gold should be obtained per Map and per conditions.

I expected a bit more from all players, for example everyone revaling their Condition 2(considering only that could be really revealed so early) and to try to figure out mafias/townies from their conditions. For that purpose conditions were often very ambiguous, fitting for any allegiance. Some were a a risk, like ending a day with 2 votes. Some were a trap, something that can be used to frame and vote someone. Like Demonspeed having to lock last, something often seen as mafia sniping, or being the first player to lock a vote. While others were more challenges. Can you resist the urge to not vote in the last 3 hours? Can you pull off not having any votes on you? Can you play without locking your vote?

Gold gained from Conditions depended partially on how hard they were to fulfill, and partially on what the Upgrade/Power is. I believe it was all very well calculated, numbers-wise. Still, took a while to best decide on how everyone should gain Gold. First I wanted a system like in Overwatch game where nobody knows what gives them Gold, but quickly decided that's boring. Public tasks like in the Shingeki no Kyojin/YuGiOh game were also not what I wanted, as they come with many downsides like spamming for postcount and making everyone behave too rigorous. Private conditions work best for this matter imo. Whether attempting them is good or bad for a player to go for on a certain Day, or try later, is left up to them. Mafia can try to excuse any weird behavior with "It's my condition!" giving them a lot more freedom.

Maps were something I wanted to try since the Magic game, but instead of making everyone have a say in which Map is chosen I gave the full choice to Mafia. This gives a lot of agency to a good Mafia team, deciding when they want which Map, how much Gold they want when etc. Most Maps had a balance: None were strictly bad or good for either team. If the power was good for Mafia, they get less Gold. If good for Town, mafia gets more Gold. Or Day favors 1 team but Night effect favors another. I think most effects were well chosen and balanced.

The tools were there to strategize and go many different paths.

As for players:
  1. Mafia Detective - Despite Icewind Pass Map, mafia still don't know which player has which role. On the contrary to what happened this game, I expected town to hint less so that mafia doesn't know all the good targets early. Hence they get a Mafia Detective to poke around early. Spy upgrade allows them a Spy claim or extra information, and a Power to immediately find a Bomb or other role if they rush for the Gold.​
  2. Mafia Escort - Bread and butter role that should be in every mafia team in most current games here imo, due to how we love to fill games with active roles. Had she lived she could spread even more disease for safer Day phases, and even use a Redirecting power to mess up a Detective or many other players, one time.​
  3. Mafia Robber - Finally this role doesn't die immediately in a game where it's tested. Noble alone would be way too strong given the ways to mess with voting system, so mafia must earn it via Robber kills. Can upgrade to stack up votes and unleash more Anonymous Votes at once to get an important lynch done. Finally, return of the Politician, another strong day-affecting power.​
  4. Mafia Bomb Defuser Sickly - Imo we don't do enough Bomb+Defuser games. If mafia can find the town Bomb, he would get a lot of Gold to upgrade himself into a Mafia Bomb(so that the defuser isn't dead weight), and can even fully remove a player's role for if their Escort is dead and a key target must be disabled but cannot be killed. Additionally gets Sickly secondary to be useful in nights until the Bomb is found, and afterwards too.​
  5. Sane Detective - One Det for 15 players is enough for a game where everyone was very powerful. I made sure that if the Det had 2 different results at start of D3 that he couldn't afford the sanity reveal. That was only possible if 2 townies were investigated first, and helps alleviate fears of being Naive. Can compare 2 players' allegiance, which has a lot of applicable situations better than standard investigating.​
  6. Paranoid Spy - Was meant to show how useful a Paranoid Spy can be by still getting mafias despite no helpful result. Like someone hiding their Dodger secondary, or passive claim/active claim that can be debunked just by knowing if and how many actions were used is plenty. His upgrade to target 2 people was meant to help cover the search area, can't believe the Spy wouldn't think they were Paranoid with such an OP upgrade. His real OP power lied in basically a Spirit Medium power that targets living players of any allegiance.​
  7. Prostitute - Town's blocker to fight against some BS mafia powers. Can spread disease with an upgrade to contest mafia's day control powers, and can even block one player an extended time.​
  8. Hider - An unkillable townie that needs more skill than Bulletproof. Only can be countered by blocking, so if he was a particularly good player mafia wants to get rid of, he has an upgrade so he cannot even be blocked. His Power is a poor-mans Doctor, to protect a key player if the Doctor is dead or blocked.​
  9. Vengeful Townie - Was initially a Vigilante with a Reload power but that was potentially too strong. Instead he now gets to live his life as a Vengeful, and if he survives til Day 3 he can be the role he was meant to be(albeit without much useful upgrades). PGO for 1 night was meant to bait a mafia after using Vigilante, so I'm shocked he just revealed it in the open for mafia to avoid.​
  10. Healthy Townie - One of the secretly best town roles this game. With 2 sicklies + 2 diseases from 2 blockers, Healthy could always keep his vote and even vaccinate other players with a very cheap upgrade, so that they cannot ever become sick. Too bad Farfalla was anti-vax :pls I couldn't think of any Power that fits well with Healthy, so I gave a Mason Recruiter that doesn't remove the main role and gives the Healthy a player to plan with at night, or a player to interrogate if it's a mafia. Memories with Shad in Baccano game gave me the idea for this.​
  11. Noble - Town's main shield against daytime fuckery by mafia. With his upgrade he has 2 Anonymous votes every day + a Politician use for an important day. Meant to prevent meme-victories for as long as the Noble is alive.​
  12. Bomb Sickly - Meant for the cat-and-mouse dynamic with Mafia Defuser, trying to not get defused and bait a kill instead. If he never gets to explode he can force it by becoming a Kamikaze. His upgrade everyone should be familiar with, instead of last locked player he gets to choose who explodes with him in case of a lynch. Didn't expect this to come into play. To not be too much of a sitting duck otherwise, he gets Sickly to help disable fishy mafias votes.​
  13. Necromancer - A powerful role on it's own, hard to upgrade it without it being too strong. Gets Mortician for investigating the corpses that are used, and can even permanently become a role that died, but forfeits the Necromancer role itself for that.​
  14. Death Miller - Meant to possibly screw up the Detective or town as a whole. Can find out for sure what he is with an upgrade, or let himself be revealed as Town by host for a confirmable role(that cannot be used to help find sanity on it's own).​
 
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Hardy

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The whole idea of the mechanic was to give every player huge importance in the way the game goes. This can't be accomplished with role list alone, which is where Upgrades and Powers came in. They were very fun to think of, as any role can be improved in some way or other to make it more OP, and Powers being 1-time use and expensive were allowed to be even crazier. The most difficult was calculating how much Gold should be obtained per Map and per conditions.

I expected a bit more from all players, for example everyone revaling their Condition 2(considering only that could be really revealed so early) and to try to figure out mafias/townies from their conditions. For that purpose conditions were often very ambiguous, fitting for any allegiance. Some were a a risk, like ending a day with 2 votes. Some were a trap, something that can be used to frame and vote someone. Like Demonspeed having to lock last, something often seen as mafia sniping, or being the first player to lock a vote. While others were more challenges. Can you resist the urge to not vote in the last 3 hours? Can you pull off not having any votes on you? Can you play without locking your vote?

Gold gained from Conditions depended partially on how hard they were to fulfill, and partially on what the Upgrade/Power is. I believe it was all very well calculated, numbers-wise. Still, took a while to best decide on how everyone should gain Gold. First I wanted a system like in Overwatch game where nobody knows what gives them Gold, but quickly decided that's boring. Public tasks like in the Shingeki no Kyojin/YuGiOh game were also not what I wanted, as they come with many downsides like spamming for postcount and making everyone behave too rigorous. Private conditions work best for this matter imo. Whether attempting them is good or bad for a player to go for on a certain Day, or try later, is left up to them. Mafia can try to excuse any weird behavior with "It's my condition!" giving them a lot more freedom.

Maps were something I wanted to try since the Magic game, but instead of making everyone have a say in which Map is chosen I gave the full choice to Mafia. This gives a lot of agency to a good Mafia team, deciding when they want which Map, how much Gold they want when etc. Most Maps had a balance: None were strictly bad or good for either team. If the power was good for Mafia, they get less Gold. If good for Town, mafia gets more Gold. Or Day favors 1 team but Night effect favors another. I think most effects were well chosen and balanced.

The tools were there to strategize and go many different paths.

As for players:
  1. Mafia Detective - Despite Icewind Pass Map, mafia still don't know which player has which role. On the contrary to what happened this game, I expected town to hint less so that mafia doesn't know all the good targets early. Hence they get a Mafia Detective to poke around early. Spy upgrade allows them a Spy claim or extra information, and a Power to immediately find a Bomb or other role if they rush for the Gold.​
  2. Mafia Escort - Bread and butter role that should be in every mafia team in most current games here imo, due to how we love to fill games with active roles. Had she lived she could spread even more disease for safer Day phases, and even use a Redirecting power to mess up a Detective or many other players, one time.​
  3. Mafia Robber - Finally this role doesn't die immediately in a game where it's tested. Noble alone would be way too strong given the ways to mess with voting system, so mafia must earn it via Robber kills. Can upgrade to stack up votes and unleash more Anonymous Votes at once to get an important lynch done. Finally, return of the Politician, another strong day-affecting power.​
  4. Mafia Bomb Defuser Sickly - Imo we don't do enough Bomb+Defuser games. If mafia can find the town Bomb, he would get a lot of Gold to upgrade himself into a Mafia Bomb(so that the defuser isn't dead weight), and can even fully remove a player's role for if their Escort is dead and a key target must be disabled but cannot be killed. Additionally gets Sickly secondary to be useful in nights until the Bomb is found, and afterwards too.​
  5. Sane Detective - One Det for 15 players is enough for a game where everyone was very powerful. I made sure that if the Det had 2 different results at start of D3 that he couldn't afford the sanity reveal. That was only possible if 2 townies were investigated first, and helps alleviate fears of being Naive. Can compare 2 players' allegiance, which has a lot of applicable situations better than standard investigating.​
  6. Paranoid Spy - Was meant to show how useful a Paranoid Spy can be by still getting mafias despite no helpful result. Like someone hiding their Dodger secondary, or passive claim/active claim that can be debunked just by knowing if and how many actions were used is plenty. His upgrade to target 2 people was meant to help cover the search area, can't believe the Spy wouldn't think they were Paranoid with such an OP upgrade. His real OP power lied in basically a Spirit Medium power that targets living players of any allegiance.​
  7. Prostitute - Town's blocker to fight against some BS mafia powers. Can spread disease with an upgrade to contest mafia's day control powers, and can even block one player an extended time.​
  8. Hider - An unkillable townie that needs more skill than Bulletproof. Only can be countered by blocking, so if he was a particularly good player mafia wants to get rid of, he has an upgrade so he cannot even be blocked. His Power is a poor-mans Doctor, to protect a key player if the Doctor is dead or blocked.​
  9. Vengeful Townie - Was initially a Vigilante with a Reload power but that was potentially too strong. Instead he now gets to live his life as a Vengeful, and if he survives til Day 3 he can be the role he was meant to be(albeit without much useful upgrades). PGO for 1 night was meant to bait a mafia after using Vigilante, so I'm shocked he just revealed it in the open for mafia to avoid.​
  10. Healthy Townie - One of the secretly best town roles this game. With 2 sicklies + 2 diseases from 2 blockers, Healthy could always keep his vote and even vaccinate other players with a very cheap upgrade, so that they cannot ever become sick. Too bad Farfalla was anti-vax :pls I couldn't think of any Power that fits well with Healthy, so I gave a Mason Recruiter that doesn't remove the main role and gives the Healthy a player to plan with at night, or a player to interrogate if it's a mafia. Memories with Shad in Baccano game gave me the idea for this.​
  11. Noble - Town's main shield against daytime fuckery by mafia. With his upgrade he has 2 Anonymous votes every day + a Politician use for an important day. Meant to prevent meme-victories for as long as the Noble is alive.​
  12. Bomb Sickly - Meant for the cat-and-mouse dynamic with Mafia Defuser, trying to not get defused and bait a kill instead. If he never gets to explode he can force it by becoming a Kamikaze. His upgrade everyone should be familiar with, instead of last locked player he gets to choose who explodes with him in case of a lynch. Didn't expect this to come into play. To not be too much of a sitting duck otherwise, he gets Sickly to help disable fishy mafias votes.​
  13. Necromancer - A powerful role on it's own, hard to upgrade it without it being too strong. Gets Mortician for investigating the corpses that are used, and can even permanently become a role that died, but forfeits the Necromancer role itself for that.​
  14. Death Miller - Meant to possibly screw up the Detective or town as a whole. Can find out for sure what he is with an upgrade, or let himself be revealed as Town by host for a confirmable role(that cannot be used to help find sanity on it's own).​
Sane Doctor: healthcare good.

Robber was finally useful I still can't believe it.

Night actions will be fun to discuss.
 

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Forgot to mention the secondary roles. They were intentionally cheap so that people don't need to give up on Upgrades/Powers to get a weak secondary that may not accomplish much.

Dodger was rather useless, no significant dodging took place this game. Was a role idea but was shot down and won't be making it into the main game unfortunately, but I could still have it here and see how... little it does. Still, some players Dodged Panda(mafia's killer) on certain nights, so they technically were unkillable due to good usage. Dodger is also there to prevent mafia from steamrolling too much, as I believe they had the advantage.

Restless Spirit allows each player, that wants it, to still practically play one more day. Counters the Dunes Map if bought(coincidentally exactly those that died had bought it at that point in time), and even allows the solo-Det to be able to accomplish more. Doc/Prostitute can comment after death who they protected/blocked to help clear up confusion.

If anything, I am surprised the secondaries weren't bought enough. Few bought and used them well overall.

Here is a compact list of players, which upgrade they bought and when



It's possible that I missed to write in a few.

Here are the player actions(click on these pictures to see a bigger/clearer image)

 
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Hardy

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So yeah dear paranoid spy had less than 15% chance to see only one of Evil's targets right and he did it n1 :)
 

Hardy

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After this unfortunate event for townies, Evil was dying and he would had exploded on his last voter... Pompom, the scum. Conveniently he had upgraded his role and he blew up on the doctor instead.

RIGGED.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Didn't it get you lynched?
 

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After this unfortunate event for townies, Evil was dying and he would had exploded on his last voter... Pompom, the scum. Conveniently he had upgraded his role and he blew up on the doctor instead.

RIGGED.
Was karma payback for somehow lynching mafia day 1 who should have had mafia pad day prptection
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Didn't it get you lynched?
As far as I'm concerned it was the unlucky paranoid spy result.

But the capricious karma returned the favour by killing a mafia the very next day, because he was too close to me lol
 

Hardy

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Was karma payback for somehow lynching mafia day 1 who should have had mafia pad day prptection
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---



As far as I'm concerned it was the unlucky paranoid spy result.

But the capricious karma returned the favour by killing a mafia the very next day, because he was too close to me lol
Funny that in the mentor game he himself got you luckily killed. Some weird karma energies going on around you.
 

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As for how the game went... Well, I did expect the game to be more fast paced. With only 15 players and everyone being a strong role+upgrades/powers it was all about how well every team does their decisions. I expected mafia to go for a quick-kill of sorts, where they outpower town as fast as possible. Instead they went a slow route without a clear winning condition in mind.

Overall both teams played bad. Mafia didn't take enough advantage of all their tools. The D1 pad to talk live during the first day wasn't used to help with setting up any plays nor to even save another in a pinch. Map picks weren't the greatest as they couldn't leverage any substantial lead with their choices. Surprised they picked Fungal Forest that confirms a townie/mafia, when the alternative is to... just leave it last and never pick it, and have game finish before then. The hidden roles by Dunes were a two-sided blade which they cut themselves with, for example Lawl was a big "defender" of Evil3ye(the mafia in many eyes) which likely played a part in the vigilante shooting him and not digitaldude or someone else. They also were seemingly always behind town in terms of understanding the rules and mechanics which didn't help with the planning.
They didn't fulfill most of their conditions and had no Gold for nearly the entire game. Not even their night actions helped them much as they kill a Death Miller and somewhat fail investigating as well.

They did very well with Sickly and with Robber Anonymous vote, and also did well to stay trusted(2 of them at least), but the claims of the last 2 members cut into each other too much. They had the option of using Icewind Pass to find all townie roles and make up perfect covers for themselves but decided not to. I am unsure why they wanted Evil dead instead of sakura on D2, but they did rather well on the days.

Town... I'd like to say they played well, but were also not good. D1 mafia lynch can be more creditted to mafia letting it happen. D2 was a disaster with the sakura-Evil-Paranoid Spy combo. D3 was going to be an even bigger disaster if not for James saving town with his shot, showing everyone that Evil was town. D2 and especially D3 were only possible due to extreme tunnel-vision, nobody entertaining the thought that Evil was town would cause further mislynches down the road.
James did really well with his shot and Farfalla was quite on point(except for also getting caught up in the Evil-DD thing). Tatsu was doing well on Detective, and her merely getting one result caused mafia to surrender which is... impressive.

All others surely know what they did wrong and could improve on, I hope.
 
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