Discussion Make your regular (E&D class) tier list

[hblock]

This thread is about making your own tier list, only E and D class regulars are allowed in. Feel free to do your own whenever you want.

Some abreviations that you can use (or not) are listed below :

Spoiler

Arcs
WB : Workshop battle (30th floor)
pre-HT : before Baam's party entered the hell train (35th floor)
DS : Dallar show (38th floor)
NHS : name hunt station arc (39th floor)
FoD : floor of death arc (43rd floor)
HF : hidden floor arc
LS : the last station incident (44th floor)

Items/Weapons
MS : Mad Shocker
BB : Bong Bong
BT : Blood Tamara

My personal tier list inside the spoiler tag, it only contains the top of E&D class regulars since it's very difficult to jauge the gap between them and cannon fodder.
one tier difference = twice overall power (if character A is exactly one tier above character B, then he is two times stronger overall).

Spoiler

Tier 1 :
Rak Wraithraiser (WB, pre-MS&post-MS), Novick (WB), Hatsu (WB), Quaetro Blitz (WB), Kang Horyang (WB), Phonsekal Laure (WB)

Tier 2 :
Chang Blarod (WB), Khun Aguero Agnes (WB), Yeon Yihwa (WB), Beniamino Cassano (WB), JM, Baam (WB, pre-Thorn), Marte

Tier 3 :
Beta (WB), Khun Ran (WB), Anak Jahad (WB), Khun Aguero Agnes (pre-HT, NHS), Rak Wraithraiser (pre-HT), Novick (NHS), Lulu, Boro, Moontari, Angel, Yura Ha (pre-HT), Hatsu (NHS, w/o Donghae), Yeon Yihwa (pre-HT, DS, NHS), Rak Wraithraiser (NHS), Reflejo, Baam (WB, post-Thorn), Beniamino Cassano (post-WB), Yukan, Hesse

Tier 4 :
Khun Ran (pre-HT), Beta (pre-HT), Arie Inieta (pre-Krishna), Yura Ha (FoD), Miseng (LS), Aka Williams, Endorsi Jahad (WB, pre-BB), Varagarv (WB, pre-BT), Beniamino Cassano (pre-HT), Khun Kiseia (Data)

Tier 5 :
Khun Ran (NHS), Arie Inieta (post-Krishna), Daniel Hatchid, Endorsi Jahad (WB, post-BB), Arie Anna, Buelsar Elliot (pre-HT), Baam (pre-HT)

Tier 6 :
Buelsar Elliot (DS), Sachi Faker, Jyu Viole Grace (Data), Yu Hansung (Data)

Tier 7 :
Baam (DS/NHS), Khun Aguero Anies (FoD), Endorsi Jahad (NHS), Khun Aguero Agnes (HF), Rak Wraithraiser (HF), Arie David, Lopobia Elaine (NHS)

Tier 8 :
Baam (FoD), Endorsi Jahad (FoD/HF), Arie Vicente, Arie Hoaqin (DS)

Tier 9 :
Endorsi Jahad (LS), White (DS), Baam (post-FoD), Khun Marco Asencio (Data), Khun Icardi (Data), Big breeder Jeok (neutral conditions), White (FoD/HF),
Baam (DS, w souls)

Tier 10 :

Tier 11 :

Tier 12 :
Khun Maschenny Jahad (Data)

A more detailed list :

Spoiler

Tier 1
Low : Rak Wraithraiser (WB, pre-MS)
Mid : Novick (WB), Hatsu (WB), Quaetro Blitz (WB)
High : Phonsekal Laure (WB), Kang Horyang (WB)

Tier 2
Low : Chang Blarod (WB), Yeon Yihwa (WB), Beniamino Cassano (WB),
Mid : Khun Aguero Agnes (WB), JM
High : Baam (WB, pre-Thorn), Marte

Tier 3
Low : Beta (WB), Khun Ran (WB), Anak Jahad (WB), Rak Wraithraiser (pre-HT), Novick (NHS), Lulu, Yeon Yihwa (pre-HT)
Mid : Boro, Moontari, Angel, Yura Ha (pre-HT), Hatsu (NHS, w/o Donghae), Yeon Yihwa (DS, NHS), Rak Wraithraiser (NHS), Khun Aguero Agnes (pre-HT, NHS)
High : Reflejo, Baam (WB, post-Thorn), Beniamino Cassano (post-WB), Yukan, Hesse

Tier 4
Low : Khun Ran (pre-HT), Beta (pre-HT), Arie Inieta (pre-Krishna), Yura Ha (FoD), Miseng (LS),
Mid : Aka Williams
High : Endorsi Jahad (WB, pre-BB), Varagarv (WB, pre-BT), Beniamino Cassano (pre-HT), Khun Kiseia (Data)

Tier 5
Low : Khun Ran (NHS), Arie Inieta (post-Krishna), Daniel Hatchid
Mid :
High : Endorsi Jahad (WB, post-BB), Arie Anna, Buelsar Elliot (pre-HT), Baam (pre-HT)

Tier 6
Low : Buelsar Elliot (DS), Sachi Faker, Jyu Viole Grace (Data), Yu Hansung (Data)
Mid :
High :

Tier 7
Low : Lopobia Elaine (NHS), Baam (DS/NHS), Khun Aguero Anies (FoD), Endorsi Jahad (NHS), Khun Aguero Agnes (HF), Rak Wraithraiser (HF)
Mid :
High : Arie David

Tier 8
Low : Endorsi Jahad (FoD), Arie Vicente, Arie Hoaqin (DS)
Mid : Baam (FoD), Endorsi Jahad (HF)
High :

Tier 9
Low : Endorsi Jahad (LS), White (DS), Baam (post-FoD)
Mid : Khun Marco Asencio (Data), Khun Icardi (Data), Big breeder Jeok (neutral conditions)
High : White (FoD/HF), Baam (DS, w souls)

Tier 10
Low :
Mid :
High :

Tier 11
Low :
Mid :
High :

Tier 12
Low :
Mid : Khun Maschenny Jahad (Data)
High :

 

[Demonspeed]

That's pretty detailed...

I agree that Data Maschenny is stronger among the non-Irregulars but I wouldn't put her above Androssi and White this much. I don't think these two are weaker than Data Asensio either.

Will try to make a list later.

 

[King Dryst]

Putting Data Maschenny above the Hidden Floor version of Baam is kinda LOL, though. Baam fought Data Zahard to a draw, and Maschenny got stomped by him.

 

[hblock]

Putting Data Maschenny above the Hidden Floor version of Baam is kinda LOL, though. Baam fought Data Zahard to a draw, and Maschenny got stomped by him.

This Baam wasn't even included in the tier list since he is so OP.

 

[kkck]

data Mascheny is extremely powerful by d class regular standards though I am skeptical of putting her ahead of any one character post shinsoo attributes. specially androsi. I'd actually put white ahead of data mascheny. I would maintain he is just stronger than any non irregular d class.

 

[hblock]

I agree that Data Maschenny is stronger among the non-Irregulars but I wouldn't put her above Androssi and White this much. I don't think these two are weaker than Data Asensio either.

data Mascheny is extremely powerful by d class regular standards though I am skeptical of putting her ahead of any one character post shinsoo attributes. specially androsi. I'd actually put white ahead of data mascheny. I would maintain he is just stronger than any non irregular d class.

There are many reasons for that.
Let's start with Baam's party feats against some beasts far weaker than a big breeder :
-Vs the demon of good and evil : Baam was forced to use both the Thorn + Hansung's amplification skill to beat it at a fast rate.
-Vs the giant soldier : Endorsi and Hansung were forced to run away alongside Baam when he showed up.
-Vs a giant rat : Baam was struggling against its agility (although he wasn't using the Thorn).
-Vs a champion villain : It was implied that it'd take a long time for Baam and Endorsi to beat it giving its high shinsu resistance.

Compared to them, Acensio cleared the hardest grand quest and effortlessly defeated a champion villain far stronger than the octopus who gave so much trouble to Sachi+Khun+Boro+Rak+Hockney at the same time.
In fact, he didn't even used his full power while doing so as his signature ability, the flying spear technique wasn't unleashed.

Above all, it was implied that Baam had no chance against the big breeder Jeok, the same dude that Asencio fought equally with and was one shotted later by Maschenny.

Therefore, we know that :
Data Asencio (flying fish) >> Data Asencio (average skill) >> Chrome cutter >>> Sachi + Khun + Rak + Boro + Hockney
And :
Redan Maschenny >> base Maschenny >> Asencio >> Baam (with Thorn+Shinwonryuu) prior to Edahn's training.

Did Endorsi really became so much stronger after finding and training her shinsu quality ?
Based on feats, White dealt with her quality better than her kick. After all, he continuously countered their strikes albeit with difficuly but when she kicked him (alongside Beta but I doubt his strenght is close to Endorsi's, so it doesn't matter much), he was sent him flying in one swoop.
Furtheremore, that was just a basic kick since Bong Bong's amplificatiaon wasn't added to boost the destructive capacity.

Endorsi certainly became more versatil, but it's nothing like a massive power up in a similar fashion to Khun or Rak. SIU pointed in a blogpost that learning shinsu qualities was a mean for these two to catch up to the highest level possible alongside Sachi and Endorsi, so not a proper power up for the princess herself. And anyway, she already had a powerful set of abilities (high physical might, Bong Bong, Yuri's skill, etc).

Based on these facts, quality or not, she would've still struggled in a similar fashion when confronted to the same beasts that she faced in the hidden floor. So, by extension, there is a gap between her and data Khuns and White shouldn't be far stronger than her giving their fight (albeit with Hwaryun and Beta's support).

About Maschenny, she literally one shotted the big breeder in base => the same big breeder who fought equally with data Asencio and was noted to be dramatically stronger than Baam prior to Edahn's training.

When she faced Data Jahad, the latter used Lecalicus to beat her, which means that he acknowledged her as a true opponent.

What's even more impressive is that Data Jahad's expecetations of Baam had gone up a bit since he just fought someone (data Maschenny) who gave him the most fun in ages. His hopes only went up again when he witnessed :
-Baam's reaction speed and learned that he performed a revolution with Edahn's help.
-the Orb
-Baam controlling a large quantity of shinsu at once from a place he couldn't see.
-Shinwonryuu inside an Orb
-Orb compression
-Orb shinsu scattering and battle instincts.
-real time growth.

Finally, Baam was only recognized as a true ennemy (symbolized by Lecalicus 1st form usage) when he unleashed revolution at full swing.

In other words, even after Edahn's training, data Maschenny was still stronger than Baam without revolution (also, don't get me wrong, with revolution, Baam becomes far stronger tha Mas').
As such, this is yet another proof of her being >>>> White or post-shinsu quality Endorsi.

Let's see how things work from a shinsu quality's perspective again.
We know that Maschenny is from the Maschenny branch. As such, she trained her quality since ages ago unlike Endorsi who just trained hers for a month just recently. Mas' also knows how to use both internal (Redan) and external quality controls.
Furhteremore, the lightening spear is one of Edahn's three shinsu qualities who are said to be exceptional among the family heads. Endorsi's quality never received such a hype and her feats were very underwhelming (as shown against White).

What's more so, SIU noted that compared to other princesses, Endorsi is warm and human (implying that she is weak for a princess). In contrast, current Maschenny is one of the strongest princesses.

Therefore, no matter how you look at it, there was an extremely massive gap between data Maschenny and regulars of White or HF Endorsi's calibre. Even Data Asencio/Icardi showed far better feats and their portrayal was simply better.

 

[God_Paracule]

Actual tier list:

1. Paracule
2. Phantaminum
3. Enryu
4. Jääskel
5. Kon
6. Chadzino
7+. irrelevant scrubs

 

[kkck]

There are many reasons for that.
Let's start with Baam's party feats against some beasts far weaker than a big breeder :
-Vs the demon of good and evil : Baam was forced to use both the Thorn + Hansung's amplification skill to beat it at a fast rate.
-Vs the giant soldier : Endorsi and Hansung were forced to run away alongside Baam when he showed up.
-Vs a giant rat : Baam was struggling against its agility (although he wasn't using the Thorn).
-Vs a champion villain : It was implied that it'd take a long time for Baam and Endorsi to beat it giving its high shinsu resistance.

Compared to them, Acensio cleared the hardest grand quest and effortlessly defeated a champion villain far stronger than the octopus who gave so much trouble to Sachi+Khun+Boro+Rak+Hockney at the same time.
In fact, he didn't even used his full power while doing so as his signature ability, the flying spear technique wasn't unleashed.

Above all, it was implied that Baam had no chance against the big breeder Jeok, the same dude that Asencio fought equally with and was one shotted later by Maschenny.

Therefore, we know that :
Data Asencio (flying fish) >> Data Asencio (average skill) >> Chrome cutter >>> Sachi + Khun + Rak + Boro + Hockney
And :
Redan Maschenny >> base Maschenny >> Asencio >> Baam (with Thorn+Shinwonryuu) prior to Edahn's training.

Did Endorsi really became so much stronger after finding and training her shinsu quality ?
Based on feats, White dealt with her quality better than her kick. After all, he continuously countered their strikes albeit with difficuly but when she kicked him (alongside Beta but I doubt his strenght is close to Endorsi's, so it doesn't matter much), he was sent him flying in one swoop.
Furtheremore, that was just a basic kick since Bong Bong's amplificatiaon wasn't added to boost the destructive capacity.

Endorsi certainly became more versatil, but it's nothing like a massive power up in a similar fashion to Khun or Rak. SIU pointed in a blogpost that learning shinsu qualities was a mean for these two to catch up to the highest level possible alongside Sachi and Endorsi, so not a proper power up for the princess herself. And anyway, she already had a powerful set of abilities (high physical might, Bong Bong, Yuri's skill, etc).

Based on these facts, quality or not, she would've still struggled in a similar fashion when confronted to the same beasts that she faced in the hidden floor. So, by extension, there is a gap between her and data Khuns and White shouldn't be far stronger than her giving their fight (albeit with Hwaryun and Beta's support).

About Maschenny, she literally one shotted the big breeder in base => the same big breeder who fought equally with data Asencio and was noted to be dramatically stronger than Baam prior to Edahn's training.

When she faced Data Jahad, the latter used Lecalicus to beat her, which means that he acknowledged her as a true opponent.

What's even more impressive is that Data Jahad's expecetations of Baam had gone up a bit since he just fought someone (data Maschenny) who gave him the most fun in ages. His hopes only went up again when he witnessed :
-Baam's reaction speed and learned that he performed a revolution with Edahn's help.
-the Orb
-Baam controlling a large quantity of shinsu at once from a place he couldn't see.
-Shinwonryuu inside an Orb
-Orb compression
-Orb shinsu scattering and battle instincts.
-real time growth.

Finally, Baam was only recognized as a true ennemy (symbolized by Lecalicus 1st form usage) when he unleashed revolution at full swing.

In other words, even after Edahn's training, data Maschenny was still stronger than Baam without revolution (also, don't get me wrong, with revolution, Baam becomes far stronger tha Mas').
As such, this is yet another proof of her being >>>> White or post-shinsu quality Endorsi.

Let's see how things work from a shinsu quality's perspective again.
We know that Maschenny is from the Maschenny branch. As such, she trained her quality since ages ago unlike Endorsi who just trained hers for a month just recently. Mas' also knows how to use both internal (Redan) and external quality controls.
Furhteremore, the lightening spear is one of Edahn's three shinsu qualities who are said to be exceptional among the family heads. Endorsi's quality never received such a hype and her feats were very underwhelming (as shown against White).

What's more so, SIU noted that compared to other princesses, Endorsi is warm and human (implying that she is weak for a princess). In contrast, current Maschenny is one of the strongest princesses.

Therefore, no matter how you look at it, there was an extremely massive gap between data Maschenny and regulars of White or HF Endorsi's calibre. Even Data Asencio/Icardi showed far better feats and their portrayal was simply better.

How about this though: Just as bam was about to fight zahard, aguero had to complete a test. Which he completed with ease using his ice spear. And this was after yellow basically made the point he could put in whatever difficulty he wanted. But even then aguero completed the test easily and the others didn't feel it was necessary to even show up. And this after we had seen pre attribute gang having difficulty completing other tests at earlier stages in the arc. And this was merely aguero... Androsi of course also got a comparable powerup. Except she is a lot stronger than aguero to begin with.

As for mascheny using her quality... I would argue she isn't using it at that point. If she had her shinsoo quality then she would have no need of the redan, a power inferior and riskier to internal quality shinsoo control. Mascheny style alone probably is not her quality, odds are there is more to it. When she faced jinsung she used a 3 pronged spear of sorts, that's very likely her shinsoo attribute or whatever and what she needs to learn to not have to rely on the redan. Add to that, she hasn't used the redan as an adult in spite of being in serious fights...

And within this... we saw white at least keeping at bay androsi and miseng who had access to their attributes while supported by hwa ryun. White is insanely strong by D class regular standards if he could hold his ground against them at that stage.

 

[King Dryst]

Redan Maschenny >> base Maschenny >> Asencio >> Baam (with Thorn+Shinwonryuu) prior to Edahn's training.

And yet it somehow surprises people that I complain about Baam.

 

[hblock]

How about this though: Just as bam was about to fight zahard, aguero had to complete a test. Which he completed with ease using his ice spear. And this was after yellow basically made the point he could put in whatever difficulty he wanted.

Which means he became far stronger than himself (prior to quality training) + Rak (prior to training) + Sachi + Boro + Hockney. But still, nothing indicates that he can beat a Big breeder all by himself like data Asencio did.
If he could, that'd imply that he became stronger than Endorsi going by feats. Although possible, I don't think, he was meant to surpass her, more like reaching her level.

And this was merely aguero... Androsi of course also got a comparable powerup. Except she is a lot stronger than aguero to begin with.

Endorsi's shinsu quality wasn't hightlighted as something close to the ice spear (exceptional quality even among the FHs) or a native one's element. Based on her feats against White, it's is offensively weaker than her basic physical strikes.

As for mascheny using her quality... I would argue she isn't using it at that point. If she had her shinsoo quality then she would have no need of the redan, a power inferior and riskier to internal quality shinsoo control. Mascheny style alone probably is not her quality, odds are there is more to it. When she faced jinsung she used a 3 pronged spear of sorts, that's very likely her shinsoo attribute or whatever and what she needs to learn to not have to rely on the redan. Add to that, she hasn't used the redan as an adult in spite of being in serious fights...

You don't have to fully manifest as both shape + element to use a power fitting you. When Edahn was demonstrating the increased tension, he used a normal lightning bang, not a lightning spear. Similarly, Jahad used a normal golden Bang with shinwonryuu to use internal quality control not a golden needle.
Redan is noted as an internal quality control skill, not an advanced one, but it's still one of these, which proves that Maschenny (and Ran) already had their shinsu qualities set for them (just like the Arie can manifest a white shinsu sword or fire for Yeon descendants).
Btw, the giant lightning spear used by Edahn in this chapter isn't the same as this one, so the shape not being exactly the same isn't really an argument.

And within this... we saw white at least keeping at bay androsi and miseng who had access to their attributes while supported by hwa ryun. White is insanely strong by D class regular standards if he could hold his ground against them at that stage.

Miseng still didn't had her quality when Endorsi fought White and even if she had, she'd still be a non-factor giving the massive gap between her and the princess.
And well, yeah White held himself against Endorsi + Hwaryun, but was Hwaryun's help a multiple tier-worth jump ? I doubt it, it's a notable but nothing close to a tremendous support, White was also pressured (he was on the defensive) not winning and Endorsi still didn't use her strongest assets (Bong Bong amped strikes, Yuri's skill) which are stronger than her shinsu quality in terms of destructive capacity.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 29, 2020, Original Post Date: Jun 29, 2020 ---

And yet it somehow surprises people that I complain about Baam.

Like someone saying he has less potential than White ?

 

[Demonspeed]

Learning your Shinsoo attributes is a big power up no matter how you think about. Yes, AA and Rak needed to catch up, but learning this didn't put them at Baam and Androssi and Sachi's level. And it's not like these three were near equal or something.

Baam was comfortably stronger than Androssi and both were much stronger than Sachi(who himself admitted that he was no match for the three Lo Po Bia).

They all trained for a month. After learning their Attributes( in 2 days for Baam and Androssi) they kept training until the date of the duel.

Androssi was always one of the strongest among her peers and she only started using Shinsoo after training with Yuri. Before that she was using her inventory, physical abilities and later Bong Bong that she got at the Workshop. At the FOD both Androssi and AA showed what they learned from Yuri and Evan and before entering the HF Yuri states that their skills have stabilized after they defeat the boss (Androssi's Chiffon Sword was much more powerful there).

Hoaqin is severely underestimated. He was once a High Ranker, he has experience, he only lacks power level(though it looks like he can only use certain swords once his power is high enough like Spinel, Culinan etc).

It is kinda hard to rate Attributes when we don't know much about their features, they all have their strengths and weaknesses. Orb maximizes Shinsoo power, Shield obviously has great defensive properties etc. But if we compare AA's attribute to Androssi and Rak, it wasn't really considered exceptional.

The Ice Spear attributes is rarer in the Koon family but it doesn't mean it's better. AA is a Koon and he shared that attribute with Eduan. Eduan has the Ice Spear Attribute but it's clear that using Jeonsul is what he best at. He passively emits sparks even. Does it mean that the Lightning Spear attribute is better though? No. Lightning Spear is more common and both LS and IS have their strengths and weaknesses. What matters is what the people do with it.

Compared to AA's IS we have Rak who is a pure Ancient and Androssi's Shinsoo Dart which is an attribute even someone old and experienced like Hoaqin as never seen, he stated that it was fast and unpredictable. None of them have shown much anyway but AA's attribute wasn't considered superior in any way.

How about this though: Just as bam was about to fight zahard, aguero had to complete a test. Which he completed with ease using his ice spear. And this was after yellow basically made the point he could put in whatever difficulty he wanted. But even then aguero completed the test easily and the others didn't feel it was necessary to even show up. And this after we had seen pre attribute gang having difficulty completing other tests at earlier stages in the arc. And this was merely aguero... Androsi of course also got a comparable powerup. Except she is a lot stronger than aguero to begin with.

As for mascheny using her quality... I would argue she isn't using it at that point. If she had her shinsoo quality then she would have no need of the redan, a power inferior and riskier to internal quality shinsoo control. Mascheny style alone probably is not her quality, odds are there is more to it. When she faced jinsung she used a 3 pronged spear of sorts, that's very likely her shinsoo attribute or whatever and what she needs to learn to not have to rely on the redan. Add to that, she hasn't used the redan as an adult in spite of being in serious fights...

And within this... we saw white at least keeping at bay androsi and miseng who had access to their attributes while supported by hwa ryun. White is insanely strong by D class regular standards if he could hold his ground against them at that stage.

I'd say its obvious that Lightning Spear is an attribute shared by Eduan, Maschenny and Ran. The techniques Maschenny used should count as such, one of the perks of being of families like this is that it's easier to identify your talent. Data Eduan only realized that Koon was his son once he saw he had a Ice Spear attribute. Both Maschenny and Ran use Shinsoo spears with electric properties. It's clearly an attribute. The Tres Cuemos technique is just another way to use it.

Redan is underrated as well, using Shinsoo internally isn't inferior in the first place. Zahard uses it that way, it's a matter of affinity I believe(Zahard can absorb Shinwonryu) while Baam showed that he could put Shinwonryu inside a Bang and it's implied that V couldn't do this because Data Zahard said he had never seen something like this. Redan has risks but it is useful and is essentially a classic power up technique.

After their training I don't see why Androssi would lose to Asensio, same for White(who didn't need training in the first place). We saw Ran VS Inieta, Data Maschenny VS Hoaqin would be a fight with similar, but stronger fighters. Inieta was overwhelmed by Ran's speed and power, but with the Arie sword hax he was probably going to beat Ran without Xia Xia and Dan's intervention. Not only is Maschenny physically above Ran, she has two levels of Redan, Hoaqin is stronger than Inieta but I can't see him dealing with this. As for Androssi VS Data Maschenny, I think that if Maschenny beats Hoaqin then she should logically beat Androssi as well. Androssi might or might not be stronger than Hoaqin but they are definitely in the same ballpark. Though with her Bong Bong and other skills I think she would be harder to defeat. A shame she doesn't have more feats.

And yet it somehow surprises people that I complain about Baam.

I do think that Baam was weaker than Data Maschenny and Asensio. But I believe it's safe to assume that these two saved their data after polishing their skills with Data Eduan there. Baam only became a "True Irregular" after the Rice Pot awakening.

 

[King Dryst]

Like someone saying he has less potential than White ?

If this is meant to be some kind of jab at me, then you're off the mark. I've never claimed that White's endgame potential surpasses Baam's, and if I did then I was being sarcastic. I have, however, been less than pleased about how SIU has recently allowed White to increase his strength at a pace greater than Baam's, Growth has always been Baam's particular thing, and it makes him look rather shitty when someone else is made to appear better at it than he is (or even his equal).

I similarly didn't care for SIU letting Androssi learn her shinsoo nature as quickly as Baam did, since that's been brought up here too.

 

[hblock]

Learning your Shinsoo attributes is a big power up no matter how you think about.

Endorsi's shinsu quality is fast un umpredictable but it lacks destructive power, it was shown that her kick did more damage to white than her quality. So, all what she gained is more versatility, she can attack from range and she can assault multiple weak ennemies at once unlike before but it's nothing like a multiplier.
For example, she'd still have the same problem against let's say that champion villain who has a high shinsu resistance, since her quality is < kicks or Yuri's skill in terms of DC.
In contrast, Rak and Khun's qualities allowed them to use some skills far stronger than whatever they could do before.
That's why their became a lot stronger while not so much in Endorsi's case.

Yes, AA and Rak needed to catch up, but learning this didn't put them at Baam and Androssi and Sachi's level. And it's not like these three were near equal or something.

Octopus Kim made Sachi + Khun (prior to training) + Rak (prior to training) + Boro + Hockney struggle like hell.
So, Khun being sent alone to clear a grand quest + his confidence that he could defeat any champion villain no matter how big breeder raises the bar at least proves that he became far stronger than Sachi.

It is kinda hard to rate Attributes when we don't know much about their features, they all have their strengths and weaknesses

By using an attribute fitting you, your tension becomes dramatically higher, that's an all-round boost for any shinsu quality. We also know that some qualities boost the tension more than the others (like Orb or Edahn's qualities which are exceptional).
The additional characteristics (freezing, burning, hardening, etc) only compliment the versatility of the user, more than amplifying his actual power.

 

[kkck]

Which means he became far stronger than himself (prior to quality training) + Rak (prior to training) + Sachi + Boro + Hockney. But still, nothing indicates that he can beat a Big breeder all by himself like data Asencio did.
If he could, that'd imply that he became stronger than Endorsi going by feats. Although possible, I don't think, he was meant to surpass her, more like reaching her level.


Endorsi's shinsu quality wasn't hightlighted as something close to the ice spear (exceptional quality even among the FHs) or a native one's element. Based on her feats against White, it's is offensively weaker than her basic physical strikes.


You don't have to fully manifest as both shape + element to use a power fitting you. When Edahn was demonstrating the increased tension, he used a normal lightning bang, not a lightning spear. Similarly, Jahad used a normal golden Bang with shinwonryuu to use internal quality control not a golden needle.
Redan is noted as an internal quality control skill, not an advanced one, but it's still one of these, which proves that Maschenny (and Ran) already had their shinsu qualities set for them (just like the Arie can manifest a white shinsu sword or fire for Yeon descendants).
Btw, the giant lightning spear used by Edahn in this chapter isn't the same as this one, so the shape not being exactly the same isn't really an argument.


Miseng still didn't had her quality when Endorsi fought White and even if she had, she'd still be a non-factor giving the massive gap between her and the princess.
And well, yeah White held himself against Endorsi + Hwaryun, but was Hwaryun's help a multiple tier-worth jump ? I doubt it, it's a notable but nothing close to a tremendous support, White was also pressured (he was on the defensive) not winning and Endorsi still didn't use her strongest assets (Bong Bong amped strikes, Yuri's skill) which are stronger than her shinsu quality in terms of destructive capacity.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 29, 2020, Original Post Date: Jun 29, 2020 ---

Like someone saying he has less potential than White ?

The point eduan made about attributes is that once you learn them you become better at handling shinsoo. As in, you learn how to make bigger and denser bangs. That is the basis of the powerup you get when learning your shinsoo's attributes. Aside from getting a fancy skill for which you have an innate talent for. In regards to that, what we know does not suggest that the attribute itself influences how much of a powerup you get.

As for androsi's shinsoo attribute... She clearly got a rare and incredibly powerful skill. Even when she fought white, an arie swordsman, the guy commented on how her ability was essentially unpredictable.

As for miseng, she got her reinforcement from using the clicker... As in, that is her shinsoo's attribute-quality or whatever you want to call it. That's why after learning it she was able to easily defeat regulars at the last station..

As far as redan... We saw how it worked for zahard and eduan, using internal quality shinsoo control is a more powerful version of redan with none of the drawbacks. And internal quality shinsoo control, at least how I understand it, is something that becomes available once you learn your shinsoo's attributes. In that sense, the only reason to use the redan is not having properly learned your shinsoo's attributes. Ran is a lightning user of course but there is a pretty good chance that there is more to his shinsoo than mere lightning. And once he learns its, he will have no further need of the redan. I also think that just because you can use a given element does not mean its your shinsoo attribute. As in, you can learn that sort of thing without it being an innate attribute.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 29, 2020 ---

Learning your Shinsoo attributes is a big power up no matter how you think about. Yes, AA and Rak needed to catch up, but learning this didn't put them at Baam and Androssi and Sachi's level. And it's not like these three were near equal or something.

Baam was comfortably stronger than Androssi and both were much stronger than Sachi(who himself admitted that he was no match for the three Lo Po Bia).

They all trained for a month. After learning their Attributes( in 2 days for Baam and Androssi) they kept training until the date of the duel.

Androssi was always one of the strongest among her peers and she only started using Shinsoo after training with Yuri. Before that she was using her inventory, physical abilities and later Bong Bong that she got at the Workshop. At the FOD both Androssi and AA showed what they learned from Yuri and Evan and before entering the HF Yuri states that their skills have stabilized after they defeat the boss (Androssi's Chiffon Sword was much more powerful there).

Hoaqin is severely underestimated. He was once a High Ranker, he has experience, he only lacks power level(though it looks like he can only use certain swords once his power is high enough like Spinel, Culinan etc).

It is kinda hard to rate Attributes when we don't know much about their features, they all have their strengths and weaknesses. Orb maximizes Shinsoo power, Shield obviously has great defensive properties etc. But if we compare AA's attribute to Androssi and Rak, it wasn't really considered exceptional.

The Ice Spear attributes is rarer in the Koon family but it doesn't mean it's better. AA is a Koon and he shared that attribute with Eduan. Eduan has the Ice Spear Attribute but it's clear that using Jeonsul is what he best at. He passively emits sparks even. Does it mean that the Lightning Spear attribute is better though? No. Lightning Spear is more common and both LS and IS have their strengths and weaknesses. What matters is what the people do with it.

Compared to AA's IS we have Rak who is a pure Ancient and Androssi's Shinsoo Dart which is an attribute even someone old and experienced like Hoaqin as never seen, he stated that it was fast and unpredictable. None of them have shown much anyway but AA's attribute wasn't considered superior in any way.



I'd say its obvious that Lightning Spear is an attribute shared by Eduan, Maschenny and Ran. The techniques Maschenny used should count as such, one of the perks of being of families like this is that it's easier to identify your talent. Data Eduan only realized that Koon was his son once he saw he had a Ice Spear attribute. Both Maschenny and Ran use Shinsoo spears with electric properties. It's clearly an attribute. The Tres Cuemos technique is just another way to use it.

Redan is underrated as well, using Shinsoo internally isn't inferior in the first place. Zahard uses it that way, it's a matter of affinity I believe(Zahard can absorb Shinwonryu) while Baam showed that he could put Shinwonryu inside a Bang and it's implied that V couldn't do this because Data Zahard said he had never seen something like this. Redan has risks but it is useful and is essentially a classic power up technique.

After their training I don't see why Androssi would lose to Asensio, same for White(who didn't need training in the first place). We saw Ran VS Inieta, Data Maschenny VS Hoaqin would be a fight with similar, but stronger fighters. Inieta was overwhelmed by Ran's speed and power, but with the Arie sword hax he was probably going to beat Ran without Xia Xia and Dan's intervention. Not only is Maschenny physically above Ran, she has two levels of Redan, Hoaqin is stronger than Inieta but I can't see him dealing with this. As for Androssi VS Data Maschenny, I think that if Maschenny beats Hoaqin then she should logically beat Androssi as well. Androssi might or might not be stronger than Hoaqin but they are definitely in the same ballpark. Though with her Bong Bong and other skills I think she would be harder to defeat. A shame she doesn't have more feats.


I do think that Baam was weaker than Data Maschenny and Asensio. But I believe it's safe to assume that these two saved their data after polishing their skills with Data Eduan there. Baam only became a "True Irregular" after the Rice Pot awakening.

I don't think rak has successfully created a rock shield yet. And its not that big a stretch that learning ice spear would have been enough to push aguero beyond androsi's pre attribute power considering his performance against a presumably high level test.

TBH I don't think its THAT obvious that they share the lightning spear. I mean, there is something to the idea of course but there could be more to it. We saw mascheny use a lightning spear against jinsung but it was clearly different from eduan's. IF we assume that that is mascheny's shinsoo attribute then it having a different shape from eduan's would imply its a different attribute with different powers. Ran in turn has used spear techniques but he hasn't evidenced making a spear like eduan or mascheny have so far. And as I said earlier, him using the redan rather than internal quality control suggests his attributes aren't fully available to him.

I maintain shinwonryu isn't relevant to internal quality control. As in, if you can use internal quality control with normal shinsoo, then you can use it with shinwonryu.

 

[hblock]

The point eduan made about attributes is that once you learn them you become better at handling shinsoo

What Edahn said is that when you use shinsu shape/quality fitting your attributes, the tension becomes much higher. Other than that, absolutely nothing changes.

As for androsi's shinsoo attribute... She clearly got a rare and incredibly powerful skill. Even when she fought white, an arie swordsman, the guy commented on how her ability was essentially unpredictable.

Again, it's fast and umpredictable but it's still < Endorsi's single kick, so Endorsi only gained in terms of versatiliy unlike Khun or Rak who didn't have any powerful ability before. Rarity =/= power.

As far as redan... We saw how it worked for zahard and eduan, using internal quality shinsoo control is a more powerful version of redan with none of the drawbacks. And internal quality shinsoo control,

Actually, Redan IS an internal quality control skill. Don't know why you make this separation ? Being considered dangerous because of a rebound doesn't imply it's not, it's just a no good internal quality control skill within Edahn's standards.

Ran is a lightning user of course but there is a pretty good chance that there is more to his shinsoo than mere lightning.

When shinsu takes the form of an element and/or a shape, that's exactly what's a quality/attribute (or whatever you call it) is.

 

[kkck]

What Edahn said is that when you use shinsu shape/quality fitting your attributes, the tension becomes much higher. Other than that, absolutely nothing changes.


Again, it's fast and umpredictable but it's still < Endorsi's single kick, so Endorsi only gained in terms of versatiliy unlike Khun or Rak who didn't have any powerful ability before. Rarity =/= power.


Actually, Redan IS an internal quality control skill. Don't know why you make this separation ? Being considered dangerous because of a rebound doesn't imply it's not, it's just a no good internal quality control skill within Edahn's standards.


When shinsu takes the form of an element and/or a shape, that's exactly what's a quality/attribute (or whatever you call it) is.

That's what I meant there. But in context, that's an all around power boost for the user. It's an immediate upgrade to your bangs.

There is a correlation between rarity and power within the series. And that is a gross underestimation for an ability which allows you free range control over however many homing projectiles androsi can manage.

Because eduan made the distinction between the redan and actual internal quality control. And specifically explains that internal quality control has all the benefits plus some but with basically none of the drawbacks.

The point is actually to cater to your shinsoo's specific traits. Imagine if aguero had just learned how to use ice rather than the ice spear... Or he just learned how to make a spear out of shinsoo but with no ice. The clicker revealed aguero's shinsoo is suited to making ice spears, not other stuff.

 

[Demonspeed]

Learning your attributes is a huge power up. It's not just about stronger Tension. Not everyone can use various Shinsoo techniques like Baam or Wave Controllers, especially at a Regular level. Wave Controllers are the ones skilled at using Shinsoo in general.

Data YHS gave more details while he was coaching AA and Rak. Even if you suck at using Shinsoo, by learning your attributes everything becomes much easier, it's like becoming a very specialized Wave Controller in a way since Shinsoo becomes more and more important the higher you climb.

AA was only able to create a single Baang and use it for Shinsoo Reinforcement. After learning his attribute he used Shinsoo in a completely different way. Everything becomes easier. Androssi has shown nothing special with her attribute besides a basic usage(no technique or anything) and from what we know its properties are strong, even at a basic level it's pretty useful at close range. We have Miseng as well, who drastically improved by focusing on her attribute. She litterally says that Shinsoo isn't as hard to use as she thought after her training.

I don't think rak has successfully created a rock shield yet. And its not that big a stretch that learning ice spear would have been enough to push aguero beyond androsi's pre attribute power considering his performance against a presumably high level test.

TBH I don't think its THAT obvious that they share the lightning spear. I mean, there is something to the idea of course but there could be more to it. We saw mascheny use a lightning spear against jinsung but it was clearly different from eduan's. IF we assume that that is mascheny's shinsoo attribute then it having a different shape from eduan's would imply its a different attribute with different powers. Ran in turn has used spear techniques but he hasn't evidenced making a spear like eduan or mascheny have so far. And as I said earlier, him using the redan rather than internal quality control suggests his attributes aren't fully available to him.

I maintain shinwonryu isn't relevant to internal quality control. As in, if you can use internal quality control with normal shinsoo, then you can use it with shinwonryu.

It's true that Rak hasn't been seen creating a shield but we should assume that he can now after everything that happened. Plus he used it for defense several times.

They might share attributes but Eduan is Eduan. He is on another level, AA recognized that Data Eduan was the real deal immediately. Maschenny's Lightning Spear isn't something everyone can use in the first place, SIU confirmed that only the Maschenny bloodline can use the real one(inferior imitations exist). I suppose that other Jeonsulsa from another branch have Lighting Spear techniques with their own perks. Ran is also much weaker than Maschenny, but she was his master.

I think Redan counts as such. They form a Bang and absorb it, but there are probably other ways to use it. I don't see Ran or Maschenny not using it in the future. Maschenny's Redan must be more refined now.

The point is actually to cater to your shinsoo's specific traits. Imagine if aguero had just learned how to use ice rather than the ice spear... Or he just learned how to make a spear out of shinsoo but with no ice. The clicker revealed aguero's shinsoo is suited to making ice spears, not other stuff.

Ice Spear is the most optimal way for him to use Shinsoo. But he can use ice without shaping it like a spear too(he froze Michael and his own heart).

 

[hblock]

That's what I meant there. But in context, that's an all around power boost for the user. It's an immediate upgrade to your bangs.

Some skills are not compatible with each other.
Was Endorsi shown using Shiffon sword with her quality instead of normal Bangs ? No
Did she used a form of internal quality control to boost her physical stats ? No
Are her kicks + Shinsu strenghtening weaker than her quality manifested externally ? No (the kick sent White flying while the quality was blocked)
Is her quality harder to block than let's say a Bong Bong+kick combo (despite it's "speed and unorthodox pattern") ? No (White was forced to block her kick just like her quality)
Is her quality more destructive than Shiffon Sword ? No
So, giving her abilities, how can you tell that she received a serious upgrade ? In most situations, she'll perform the same, quality or not.
You keep bringing some theorical assumptions about how you imagine the quality may've affected her power, but the facts are the complete opposite.

Endorsi barely became stronger because her previous abilities are :
1-Incomptible with her quality (shinsu strenghtening + immense physical might, Shiffon sword, etc, how are these possible to combine with long ranged shinsu contructs?).
2-Stronger than her quality overall and she was already quite versatile with them alone

Because eduan made the distinction between the redan and actual internal quality control. And specifically explains that internal quality control has all the benefits plus some but with basically none of the drawbacks.

When Baam assumed that Redan is an internal quality control skill, Edahn didn't said no but rather brought up its pros&cons right away. Therefore, he confirmed that it's indeed internal quality control skill, just not a good one to use before of the rebound.
Besides, it fits the description perfectly (exploding the quality bang inside the body).

The point is actually to cater to your shinsoo's specific traits. Imagine if aguero had just learned how to use ice rather than the ice spear... Or he just learned how to make a spear out of shinsoo but with no ice. The clicker revealed aguero's shinsoo is suited to making ice spears, not other stuff.

You don't need the clicker if you're born in certain families or branches. If you're from the Maschenny branch, it's almost sure that the lightning spear fits you perfectly, so it's like Khun Ran already saw what his shinsu is like before he is even born.

 

[kkck]

It's true that Rak hasn't been seen creating a shield but we should assume that he can now after everything that happened. Plus he used it for defense several times.

They might share attributes but Eduan is Eduan. He is on another level, AA recognized that Data Eduan was the real deal immediately. Maschenny's Lightning Spear isn't something everyone can use in the first place, SIU confirmed that only the Maschenny bloodline can use the real one(inferior imitations exist). I suppose that other Jeonsulsa from another branch might have Lighting Spear techniques with their own perks. Ran is also much weaker than Maschenny, but she was his master.

I think Redan counts as such. They form a Bang and absorb it, but there are probably other ways to use it. I don't see Ran or Maschenny not using it in the future. Maschenny's Redan must be more refined now.


Ice Spear is the most optimal way for him to use Shinsoo. But he can use ice without shaping it like a spear too(he froze Michael and his own heart).

My take on rak during the hidden floor was that he ultimately didn't exactly master the shield because his powers were still at least partially sealed. He can control rocks but hasn't gotten to a point where he even evidences the shield itself, which is specifically the most important part.

But... compare the lightning spear ran has used with the other two variations we have seen. Ran's looks more like a straight up thunderbolt. Meanwhile eduan's and mascheny's variations have a solid look to them. And mascheny used her mascheny style even with her rather strange spear iirc.

The way I understood redan is that it is a direct downgrade from internal quality shinsoo control as explained by eduan. The way I understood this, you only get access to internal quality shinsoo control once you get your shinsoo attributes and boosted tension down.

 

[Shadowlord123]

Wow, that was a pretty detailed list. I'll try to do something similar, although not as detailed as yours. From weakest (Tier 1) to strongest (Tier 11) seen thus far. What is inside the parenthesis is the potential the characters inside that tier can reach at their peak (HR means High Ranker).

Since it's really hard to quantify how much do the Regulars improve at each arc, I've put very few versions. NOT all the characters that are on the same tier are exactly equal with each other and the list is more based on talent than anything else since like I said it's hard to quantify the improvements. The gaps between each tier aren't exactly quantifiable either and the positions are based on: feats, portrayal, hype and my own perception of those. That being said:

Tier 1 (Average Ranker) - Ship Leesoo, Ja Wangnan, Rachel, Yeo Goseng

Tier 2 (Elite Ranker) - Yeon Yihwa (Base), Hon Akraptor, Prince

Tier 3 (Advanced Ranker, maybe Top 1000 HR) - Angel, Hatsu, Boro, Yura Ha, Phosekal Irure, Beniamino Cassano (Two Devil Arms)

Tier 4 (Top 500-1000 HR) - Khun Ran, Anak Zahard, Novick, Yeon Yihwa (True Yeon Flame), Arie Inieta, Aka Williams, Sachi Faker, Daniel Hatchid, Phosekal Lauroe

Tier 5 (Top 300-500 HR) - Endorsi Zahard, Lo Po Bia Elaine, Lo Po Bia Shilial Zahard, Lo Po Bia Lilial Zahard, Khun AA (Quality + Enna Core), Rak Wrathraiser (Quality + Decompressed), Varagav (Blood Tamara)

Tier 6 (Top 200-300 HR) - Arie Hoaquin (Prior Any Absorption), Arie Vicente, Arie Daniel

Tier 7 (Top 100-200 HR) - Khun Marco Asensio, Arie Hoaquin (Siblings Absorbed, not Final Clone)

Tier 8 (Top 50-100 HR) - Data Khun Maschenny Zahard

Tier 9 (Top 20-50 HR) -

Tier 10 (Top < 20 HR) -

Tier 11 (Irregular) - Data Zahard, Data Eduan, Baam, rest of the Family Heads in their Data Version

I think there are two tiers more of Regulars before reaching the highest tier. This is speculation ofc, but I would say that Tier 9 is comprised of Regulars that became High Rankers that currently are in-between the 20th and 50th spot in the rankings (for example Arie Hagipherione Zahard). Further speculation: Tier 10 would be occupied by Regulars worth registering inside the Top 20 (Adori, Enne, Baek...) that probably aren't that far from the Irregulars when it comes to talent.

Feel free to agree or disagree with the list and give your reasons if you want