I think you are right about the boost aguero and rak being larger than androsi's, but I also think you just missed the mark as to why that is.
Aguero wise, his shinsoo attribute boost was larger because aguero is a jackass. He climbed the tower while avoiding his innate talents. In discovering his shinsoo attribute he also finally started using his actual talents when fighting.
Rak wise... things are rather murky. Rak wasn't intentionally fighting like a jackass like aguero was but his power was cursed and sealed by zahard. Through the hidden floor he only just released a portion of his power. Rak hasn't even used a rock shield yet, in that sense it's entirely possible that he isn't even enjoying a shinsoo attribute boost yet.
In contrast, androsi has not been fighting like a jackass. Ever. She has simply fought as best she can from the get go by taking advantage of her physical strength and an assortment of weapons as best she can. So yeah, her shinsoo attribute boost is potentially smaller than either rak's or aguero's. But on the other hand, she was easily a lot stronger than either before this.
As for baragav.... He probably isn't a relevant enemy to bam's friends who got their shinsoo qualities. The shinsoo attribute boost is simply THAT large. for pretty much anyone. Just look at what bam did to kisseia... Or how aguero manhandled data viole... or how rak just straight up overpowered levi (a strong c class). Even misseng went and easily defeated multiple d class regulars at the final station. As in, people who completed the hell train were nothing to her.
And for that matter.. you think people who think aguero can take on baragav underestimate baragav? LOL, baragav probably can't take out fucking MISENG nowadays.
I would add that for me Maschenny defeat pre revolution Baam and she would fodderize Hoaqin .
I mean in my opinion her affinity is not even special , same for Rak and AA one . If i add to choose between electricity and ace or rok , i would choose electricity .
When you compare her affinity to 10 family one , they are no comparison .
For example Kaiser was chosen because she had a special anima who allowed her to bite the body of a ranker . LBP twins likely has such a powerful anima , in fact it could be better or far better given that we have hints that they were submitted to modification or something like that .
We have Yeon family who have flame that are basically unrivaled and even would put Ran who is very talented to shame wich imply i large of power , that can be debatable . But Yeon family flame are unrivaled we know they can burn basically through anything .
Arie attack can't be dodged .
Spear family are very good with electricity .
Ha family are physical beast .
In my opinion Androssi shinsoo quality is just a sheaper version of arie sword effect nothing more .
So i can't understand why people think is special about Androssi , actually i understand yhat she is liked , but nothing so far indicate that she is special , Kaiser with her anima would be a far better candidate in my opinion .
Also i always thougth that Yihwa not becomming a princess was a shame given that she could have maybe been one of the best princess of her generation .
So far neither Rak , AA and Androssi showed anything special .
I think you are right about the boost aguero and rak being larger than androsi's, but I also think you just missed the mark as to why that is.
Aguero wise, his shinsoo attribute boost was larger because aguero is a jackass. He climbed the tower while avoiding his innate talents. In discovering his shinsoo attribute he also finally started using his actual talents when fighting.
Rak wise... things are rather murky. Rak wasn't intentionally fighting like a jackass like aguero was but his power was cursed and sealed by zahard. Through the hidden floor he only just released a portion of his power. Rak hasn't even used a rock shield yet, in that sense it's entirely possible that he isn't even enjoying a shinsoo attribute boost yet.
In contrast, androsi has not been fighting like a jackass. Ever. She has simply fought as best she can from the get go by taking advantage of her physical strength and an assortment of weapons as best she can. So yeah, her shinsoo attribute boost is potentially smaller than either rak's or aguero's. But on the other hand, she was easily a lot stronger than either before this.
As for baragav.... He probably isn't a relevant enemy to bam's friends who got their shinsoo qualities. The shinsoo attribute boost is simply THAT large. for pretty much anyone. Just look at what bam did to kisseia... Or how aguero manhandled data viole... or how rak just straight up overpowered levi (a strong c class). Even misseng went and easily defeated multiple d class regulars at the final station. As in, people who completed the hell train were nothing to her.
And for that matter.. you think people who think aguero can take on baragav underestimate baragav? LOL, baragav probably can't take out fucking MISENG nowadays.
Yeah AA didn't train , still didn't male me false , when i said he was average wich you explained why , but we still don't know how strong he would have been if he trained .
And i don't value training in TOG . It is not for nothing that people don't train in TOG , oustide of the main cast .
You are basically giving me the reason why they were not strong before it doesn't contradict my point .
I disagree about Bagarav , i don't why you should underestimate people outside of the main cast , as far as we know even Androssi injuring him would be difficult so AA and Rak doing it would be propoterous . I mean we even know that the guy got a new skill .
I repeat myself AA and Rak showed nothing , even with they boost they are not stronger than Ran who can't defeat Bagarav in my opinion .
Yes the shinsoo quality was a big boost for them , but like i said they were weak ....
Ran would have defeated hem without difficulty .
Data is pathetucally weak , he would be defeated by Bagarav without any difficulty ,
Who is kissieai ?
Until now we still don't know how that guy Levi compare to people like Ran .
Bagarav is talented you are just underestimating him .
Why do you think SIU used to figth Baam ?
Please , is Misseng defeating fodder a feat now ?
Wow i didn't think you will go that far thinking that Miseng can defeat Bagarav , i aam quite shocked .
Is anyone thinking the same thing ? I
I mean we know that , he injured Baam , yes Baam was holding back a lot , but Baam body is still hela solid ,you should consider that anyone whi can injure Baam is strong .for a regular .
Please stop saying that a ants who defeated fodder can defeat semeone who Androssi needed to throw on the ground because she was not strong enough .
It is like saying Androssi can be beaten by Parakwhell .
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100 miseng would launch attack on Bagarav that he wouldn't be injured .
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I think you are confused about the nature of jnthe clickers , it tell you the path that suit you talent .
It can't change you potential , if you are a 0 you will get better but not a sumer hero .
Why is Maschenny so overrated I wonder. Nothing indicates that she is considerably superior to the Top 3 Regulars below Baam after their training.
Fodderizing Hoaqin? Hoaqin had already thousand of years of experience, he has Arie Swordsmanship, he already his Attribute, multiple swords etc. Maschenny didn't show anything that was particularly impressive. Her trump card was the Super Redan and her opponent was out of her league. If Zahard had been serious from the start I wonder if people's perception would be different. Unlike Ran she had spears but she didn't do anything special with tit. Stronger than Hoaqin maybe but fodderizing him? No way.
As for Androssi, we don't know much about her Attribute to begin with, we don't even know its name, but when Hoaqin himself says that he has never seen such an Attribute and said it was difficult to deal with, you can't deny that it is special. If Androssi wasn't gifted she would have never been able to become a Princess in the first place.
As of now I have no reason to believe that Vargarv would lose to a Regular who is not Androssi or Hoaqin.
People do train in the Tower, it's just that we focus on Baam's side more. Even Leesoo can follow Hatsu with Shinsoo Reinforcement now.
Yeah AA didn't train , still didn't male me false , when i said he was average wich you explained why , but we still don't know how strong he would have been if he trained .
And i don't value training in TOG . It is not for nothing that people don't train in TOG , oustide of the main cast .
You are basically giving me the reason why they were not strong before it doesn't contradict my point .
I disagree about Bagarav , i don't why you should underestimate people outside of the main cast , as far as we know even Androssi injuring him would be difficult so AA and Rak doing it would be propoterous . I mean we even know that the guy got a new skill .
I repeat myself AA and Rak showed nothing , even with they boost they are not stronger than Ran who can't defeat Bagarav in my opinion .
Yes the shinsoo quality was a big boost for them , but like i said they were weak ....
Ran would have defeated hem without difficulty .
Data is pathetucally weak , he would be defeated by Bagarav without any difficulty ,
Who is kissieai ?
Until now we still don't know how that guy Levi compare to people like Ran .
Bagarav is talented you are just underestimating him .
Why do you think SIU used to figth Baam ?
Please , is Misseng defeating fodder a feat now ?
Wow i didn't think you will go that far thinking that Miseng can defeat Bagarav , i aam quite shocked .
Is anyone thinking the same thing ? I
I mean we know that , he injured Baam , yes Baam was holding back a lot , but Baam body is still hela solid ,you should consider that anyone whi can injure Baam is strong .for a regular .
Please stop saying that a ants who defeated fodder can defeat semeone who Androssi needed to throw on the ground because she was not strong enough .
It is like saying Androssi can be beaten by Parakwhell .
--- Double Post Merged, ---
100 miseng would launch attack on Bagarav that he wouldn't be injured .
--- Double Post Merged, ---
I think you are confused about the nature of jnthe clickers , it tell you the path that suit you talent .
It can't change you potential , if you are a 0 you will get better but not a sumer hero .
My point was more along the lines of androsi being already stronger but that's not quite it. I don't disagree with your point in regards their strength, just the reasoning behind it. I will also add that the shinso hadoken androsi learned from yuri is irrelevant to this discussion. Naturally the technique would simply benefit from androsi's increased tension like everything else.
Baragav just sort of barely got his partial transformation, he otherwise has no new skills going on. That's a neat trick but it's a pretty big stretch that the puppy would get a boost as big as the one the gang got from a shinsoo quality from an unmastered level 1 transformation that hasn't even been seen yet.
Whose data would be defeated without difficulty by baragav? Clearly not that of eduan or zahard... the two of them were pretty damn close to rankers. The big breeders in general seem pretty damn strong. And mascheny defeated one with ease...
As for miseng, she didn't exactly defeat fodder. She defeated d class regulars who had the skill to ride and complete the hell train. Basically, d class regulars who were way above the average. miseng went from having combat capacity which was either non existent or below average to easily defeating at a bare minimum way above average d class regulars.
You are vastly underestimating shinsoo attributes. Attributes are skills way beyond d class regulars. Odds are that regulars from a superior classes don't usually have them either.
As for mascheny... sure, she didn't stand a chance against zahard BUT she did succeed is giving him a scratch. For a mere class regular that's a rather astonishing feat and a testament to her talent. I don't think even current baragav could do that.
I think the top Regulars after Baam (Androssi, White, Vargav) in general are underestimated because Baam's feats make them look like ants and they don't get long fight scenes. As kkck said White was facing Androssi supported by Miseng and Hwa Ryun. Vargav also is very strong but he only challenges Baam. Data Maschenny is overrated IMO.
I don't think she is definitely stronger than the three that I mentioned. I think I said this already but a fight against her and White wouldn't be very different from Ran VS Inieta(they are pretty much better versions of both). Redan and Super Redan are great but they have a time limit. Against Androssi she'd have to deal with Bong Bong plus her Attribute as well. Vargarv is the one who is the most disadvantged matchup wise against her.
We did see androsi win against baragav a long time ago... But there is no way baragav can possibly keep up with the growth rate the gang has gone through. You could make a case that baragav remained relevant up until the hidden floor. Because they are all climbing at growing progressively stronger. But once you hit the hidden floor the main cast got within a month what is not less than immediate and explosive growth. After that aguero gets to toy with viole (who was an exact replica of bam in terms of skill and power at the point he entered the hidden floor), rak makes short work of levi, and motherfucking miseng gets to punch down people who are essentially way above average d class regulars. The gang got decades worth of growth in a month. Then 2 YEARS later you have baragav crying about some nonsense about being the strongest c class... Which probably wouldn't even impress miseng as she drinks a martini out of a B class' skull.
Why is Maschenny so overrated I wonder. Nothing indicates that she is considerably superior to the Top 3 Regulars below Baam after their training.
Fodderizing Hoaqin? Hoaqin had already thousand of years of experience, he has Arie Swordsmanship, he already his Attribute, multiple swords etc. Maschenny didn't show anything that was particularly impressive. Her trump card was the Super Redan and her opponent was out of her league. If Zahard had been serious from the start I wonder if people's perception would be different. Unlike Ran she had spears but she didn't do anything special with tit. Stronger than Hoaqin maybe but fodderizing him? No way.
As for Androssi, we don't know much about her Attribute to begin with, we don't even know its name, but when Hoaqin himself says that he has never seen such an Attribute and said it was difficult to deal with, you can't deny that it is special. If Androssi wasn't gifted she would have never been able to become a Princess in the first place.
As of now I have no reason to believe that Vargarv would lose to a Regular who is not Androssi or Hoaqin.
People do train in the Tower, it's just that we focus on Baam's side more. Even Leesoo can follow Hatsu with Shinsoo Reinforcement now.
Maybe because she only fainted 1 mn and got back to her sense , when Androssi was K.o ed directly , maybe because she fougth with Zahard even if he holded back wich is impressive feat , also because Jahad aknoweldged her and she even scracted his weird 3 eye .
you should look at the figth that she did with Zahard , she showed immense speed , she showed also immense fire power , go look at her technique great spear of dawn and let's see if any of Androssi attack came close to that attack .
You can't say that she didn't show anything ilpressive , just standing in front of jahad is impressive wich Androssi wasn't able to do , i admit that i overestimated a bit after re watching it , but she is still superior to Androssi by a good margin .
Well hoaquin , we don't clearly know his level , but we know that is superior to Kaiser , but not by far , and in my opinion Androssi would deal with Kaiser without that much problem .
Actually she did used a spear you should reread w Jahad broke her sword and her swear was inefficient .
As far as we know Androssi shinsoo quality is not enough to dominate White when she had beta .
The defikition of strong is relative , i woukd call Kaiser dog strong , maschenny kngreat spear of dawn too . Not her weird shinsoo quality , she showed nothing that can make me say this .
Yes it was special for a Hoaquin , who barely had any power , Hoaqin could be in the top 3 and in my opinion not the first , but the fact that she needed Beta is a problem .
There is no evidence that the major way of getting stronger in TOG is training .
At the contrary , we know that even wuthout doing something Ranker become stringer with time , that is a fact .
My point was more along the lines of androsi being already stronger but that's not quite it. I don't disagree with your point in regards their strength, just the reasoning behind it. I will also add that the shinso hadoken androsi learned from yuri is irrelevant to this discussion. Naturally the technique would simply benefit from androsi's increased tension like everything else.
Baragav just sort of barely got his partial transformation, he otherwise has no new skills going on. That's a neat trick but it's a pretty big stretch that the puppy would get a boost as big as the one the gang got from a shinsoo quality from an unmastered level 1 transformation that hasn't even been seen yet.
Whose data would be defeated without difficulty by baragav? Clearly not that of eduan or zahard... the two of them were pretty damn close to rankers. The big breeders in general seem pretty damn strong. And mascheny defeated one with ease...
As for miseng, she didn't exactly defeat fodder. She defeated d class regulars who had the skill to ride and complete the hell train. Basically, d class regulars who were way above the average. miseng went from having combat capacity which was either non existent or below average to easily defeating at a bare minimum way above average d class regulars.
You are vastly underestimating shinsoo attributes. Attributes are skills way beyond d class regulars. Odds are that regulars from a superior classes don't usually have them either.
As for mascheny... sure, she didn't stand a chance against zahard BUT she did succeed is giving him a scratch. For a mere class regular that's a rather astonishing feat and a testament to her talent. I don't think even current baragav could do that.
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We did see androsi win against baragav a long time ago... But there is no way baragav can possibly keep up with the growth rate the gang has gone through. You could make a case that baragav remained relevant up until the hidden floor. Because they are all climbing at growing progressively stronger. But once you hit the hidden floor the main cast got within a month what is not less than immediate and explosive growth. After that aguero gets to toy with viole (who was an exact replica of bam in terms of skill and power at the point he entered the hidden floor), rak makes short work of levi, and motherfucking miseng gets to punch down people who are essentially way above average d class regulars. The gang got decades worth of growth in a month. Then 2 YEARS later you have baragav crying about some nonsense about being the strongest c class... Which probably wouldn't even impress miseng as she drinks a martini out of a B class' skull.
Bagarav doesn't need new skill you know , he rely on special techbique that have given by him by the workshop i think , he can just train his body and the skill he already have . Again it is not the number of skill that lake you stronger , but how much power you put into it . A regular can train a technique 1000 times and a ranker can surpass the regular in the way he use it , just because he can use more shinsoo .
It has been said again and again , everythinh that matter is talent , if you don't have any and train like a mad men , well you better train until the tower get destroyed because you will not surpass the limit that was given to you at birth , oustide of if take a new power in you wich also has is limit .
If you have talent , you can literally let time pass and it will naturally let you griw stronger .
Bagarav was already strong , he didn't need any boost , he just needed to use the skill he already has , i mean as far as we know Ran has new technique but aren't that innovative , but he is still getting stronger .
Like i said the trio was weak , so them getting a big boost is irrelevang , as far as i see Ran can still whoop they ass and without that much problem .
I am not fullish enough to imply that data zahard and Edhuan can be defeated by Bagarav .
Miseng defeated fodder , yes they entered HT so what ? Are we going to pretend that people who enter the HT are all strong ? Yeah they above average .
But do you know how weak the average people in TOG is , well look at Wangnan , Miseng without her new boost , sashi , people who have talent like Oh who dyed in season 1 , are we going that being way abive the lowest of the lowest is a feat now , thay can warrant you being better than semeone like Bagarav ? He can kill 1000 like them without being injured .
They are average according to you opinion .
For me they are trash , Rak before his transformation could beat defeat them without difficulty , even the guide could Sachi can do this .
I am not underestimating , i am stating what they are , you are putting them as this new OP power up that can turn a trash to beast .
I won't say that they are skill way beyong D class regular , in fact it wouldn't make sense for the AA and Rak if it was , like i said it is skill that best suit you talent , wich can give lot of boost , but that doesn't mean that people are weak without it .
As for aknowledging Data Maschenny , i can only agree . As far as we know there were lot of princess in her family , yet she was the only who got a 13 months , same for Yuri , she is the new tresor of her family and we know that she thougth that she could figth her big sister in 1 vs 1 when she was a D rank regular and hee sister A rank w , so nearly 50 to 60 floor at minimum of difference .
Each person whi has a 13 months is a monster in Jahad family , you guys know that there are lot of jahad princess with time and the fact that Maschenny hold one indicate that she is strong .
Yes Androssi defeated him by smashing him through the ground because she couldn't injure him , so she only won because of hee bong bong , AA and Rak can't throw people from the moon .
I don't know how you can say that the growth of thd trio surpass the Vagarav , when nothing indicates it , in fact SIU using him to show Baam prowess is for a subtle indication that he was strong for a regular .
Oooh maybe you think because Baam defeated him easily he is weak , wich is bad assumption , if SIU wasted 2 or 3 chapter on him , for Baam defeating a weakling it would make no sense , in fact before Baam got to figth ranker , we know he was figting the upper echelon of d rank regular wich was likely a attempt to show us that Baam is not regular level anymore , the same thing he did with regular ranker and advanced ranked .
Shoutout to people i were trying ti convince that Baam was HR level and he would figth Yama past rigth hand and now he is figting Kallavan and even injured him .
Again data Viole was weak , please don't use that feat . I don't see that as a feat , just gi look at the figth , there was nothing impressive , data Viole showed nithing , Ran would murder him .
I don't think he was as strong as Baam without torn , i will add that Baam without torn is not as strong as people think . Each torn regular boost multiply Baam strength .
Lol i am pitying Vagarav being looked down by Miseng ....
He was sidelined though.... That didn’t fall flat, because he didn’t participate HENCE he was sidelined. I didn’t lose sight of anything don’t be dense it happened and you admitted it.
The post I originally replied to was saying SIU should continue to keep Khun and Rak out of the way, I said that won't happen. SIU will most definitely involve them going forward. I admitted Rak hasn't been involved much in the past, nowhere did I state that I expect that to continue. YOU ARE the one who equated being involved with helping to beat the main antagonists of an arc, which is why you made that dumb list.
Your statement is that he would not, neither with Rak OR AA... You’ve been proven wrong... Subtract Hell Joe if that sparks your ire so much, who else did he fight with? You’ll just explain it away without ever realizing the point. As the second most popular/important character he should be fighting and helping Baam, NOT useless to the point the author invents reasons you can’t participate or only just.
The discussion was originally about will SIU will ditch Khun and Rak, not if he has in the past, Clearly, both have been written out of the story at points, something I acknowledged. You're the one equating helping Baam personally with being in the plot. Or are we going to say Khun didn't do anything in season 2 until he reunited with Baam?
And once again he has admitted himself (AA) he CAN’T beat his father. That isn’t implying anything other than the intent. The intent he won’t fight him as he never will surpass him or even get close enough to beat him himself.If he gets him deposed by his plans and assumes power has he not defeated his father?
He admitted he can't beat Eduan straight up, as he's too strong. Khun used this as a reason to develop his intellect, that means we probably won't ever get a straight-up Khun AA vs Khun Eduan fight. None of that means we'll get Khun Eduan vs Baam as Khun AA cheers Baam on the sidelines like you're implying.
Reread the hidden floor especially his interactions with Edahn and obviously his words.
I don't need to, none of his words mean I'll just let Baam beat my father for me.
and don’t try to tread backward you said something to the effect of “He wouldn’t let Baam defeat him for him” not “Somebody else(Baam) will probably defeat Edahn with AA’s help” and even still he’s letting Baam defeat Edahn regardless of his participation because he can’t do it! Don’t move goalposts.
This is stupid. My post obviously meant that Khun will not just sit back and let Baam fight Eduan alone for him. Baam fighting Eduan with AA's help is not the same as just letting Baam flat out beat Eduan for him, what a stupid comparison.
Yeah, He has been active in the plot just not the fights which was what Dryst was talking about... He conveniently is a non factor in all of the fights until the wall and then he’s only a strategist using questionable methods to protect Baam. For the secondary and tertiary characters who aren’t sidelined that’s pretty poor. Seeming only to show up as some kind of fan service and not have any impact on the dangers at hand.
He's been actively fighting too, just not the HeLpING BaAM DiREcTlY. Did you just call Khun AA a non-factor until the wall? Please, tell me the arcs where Khun AA has been a non-factor in? SIU has actually handled Khun AA pretty well despite him going up against rankers consistently in season 3.
And lastly you can’t tell me what I implied as you can only infer given what you perceive is my point. I know the intent and the point I was intending to make. And it was just that! Why send a threat and then not send the means to follow up with such a threat under any circumstance? So, as I was imparting it’s foolish to send your lieutenant with a threat and the weapon just might not cut it “IF” (insert scenario).... That’s the point! I never forgot about Arlene’s prophecy and I got your point but still you underestimate exactly what Baam is to do, consume all! Per the prophecy or the threat, lol whichever!
and to be honest you’ve already literally admitted to all of my points whether consciously or not... So good debate but let’s not continue!
They certainly didn't standout among the regulars they were fighting directly (because these regulars were mostly the creme of the creme) but saying that they're barely average is a massive underestimation.
AA could slice an eye to Chang, a top-5 E-class regular, and was confident he could beat him meanwhile Rak could hold himself against Inieta, the strongest of the ten bosses alone and was deemed to be pretty strong by the latter. Based on these facts, it's pretty clear that they're far from being just average half/assed regulars.
It's also an understatement to limit the regulars to just 3 tiers (low, average and strong) when it's pretty clear that there is a shitload of gaps among them even in the same class, just seeing Daniel beating 99 D-class regulars almost effortlessly when he isn't even a top 3 is enough as a proof.
Ran was stronger than either indivdually (prior to learning the qualities) but Khun and Rak being "fodders" in comparison ? That's pretty much either a massive underestimation of them or a massive overstimation of Ran (maybe both).
base Ran without Redan was having trouble against Cassano and Horyang even in a 2v1 fight with Novick's support. The same Cassano who was slashed over and over by Hatsu, fell for his knees a few moments and only managed to break the latter's sword due him being briefly off guard because of a sudden explosion.
This same Hatsu was evenly matched by Khun in the name hunt station (not counting Donhae).
In other hands, "Redan" Ran with everthing he've got was matched by Inieta in a well balanced fight (SIU said it could've went either way without external factors helping Ran), The same Inieta who was injured and strained after his fight against Rak and Yihwa.
If anything, Ran is just "slightly" stronger than a duo of Yihwa&Rak's calibre, by extension, Khun&Rak can arguably beat him in a fight even with Redan.
Also, it's not because they don't show colorful shinsu bangs or skills that Rak and AA are weak in a fight, even against OP regulars. Many are OP with just their body alone (+Shinsu strengthening).
Again data Viole was weak , please don't use that feat . I don't see that as a feat , just gi look at the figth , there was nothing impressive , data Viole showed nithing , Ran would murder him .
Data Viole is as strong as hidden-floor Baam without the Thorn, Khun and Rak not dying in front of him after a little while show that they've got some resources.
Also Khun going from being highly pressured by Viole even with Rak's help to pressing Viole once he manifested the ice spears is an indication that he suddenly became 2/3 times stronger overall at least. Although natural talent has a role to play, sudden jumps exist in ToG.
Miseng defeated two ticketers who cleared the hell train a long time ago and she did that easily. Seeing how folks like Boro and Moontari are only considered average among the ticketers, her training, several months long, with the shinsu quality certainly transformed her into an extremely strong D-class regular.
___________
Asencio and Icard already stand on a whole another level compared to folks like Sachi.
Do you remember the giant Octopus who one sidely overwhelmed Sachi + Khun + Rak + Hockney + Boro at the same time ? Asencio cleared a way higher difficulty than that octopus who gave them so much trouble and he did it very easily without even using his best skills (the flying fish).
In other words, Asencio can beat Sachi + Khun + Rak + Hockney + Boro simultaneously with ease and just using part of his power. If this is not an immeasurable difference in power, I don't know what is it.
As a side note, base Maschenny without Redan one shotted the bull big breeder Jeok who fought evenly with Asencio with a casual, nameless attack.
Therefore :
base Maschenny can fodderize Asencio using just a little of her power, the same Asencio who can beat Sachi + Khun + Rak + Hockney + Boro simultaneously with ease and just using part of his power.
A better question would be how many of this team of 5 are needed to stand a chance against just Asencio, how many Asnecios are needed to beat base Maschenny and how many base Maschennies are needed to beat Redan Maschenny ?
From another perspective, do you see Maschenny running away or struggling a gainst the following like Endorsi :
-giant soldier
-statue of good and evil
-this champion villain
who are cannon fodders against the big breeder Chung, who in turn is much weaker than the bull big breeder who was fodderized by....base Maschenny.
The hidden floor feats clearly showed that there're several "big gaps" between Endoris and just base Maschenny without Redan.
Do you think it's doable to use Shiffon sword with her quality, can Yuri can unleash a Rose petals nuclear punch, can Baam use an Orb Flare Wave explosion ? Some skills simply can't be used with shinsu qualities since they just don't fit with the mecanism.
He probably could if he thought to try it. Baam conjures stuff more or less out of thin air these days. There seems not to be much of the way of limitations to what he can or can't do.
He probably could if he thought to try it. Baam conjures stuff more or less out of thin air these days. There seems not to be much of the way of limitations to what he can or can't do.
That's technically impossible giving the defintion : "Once your body is in contact with your opponent's, you forcefully "reverse-flow control" the flow of Shinsu in your opponent's body by accelerating the flow of Shinsu inside your own body. You then "flow control" the returning shock inside your own body to protect yourself from the backlash. "
Well, unless Baam explods an Orb inside his body as an internal quality control skill (or something similar) which is possible but never shown atm.
The point was just to show that shinsu qualities in general can't be used as a fuel for some highly complexe techniques.
That's technically impossible giving the defintion : "Once your body is in contact with your opponent's, you forcefully "reverse-flow control" the flow of Shinsu in your opponent's body by accelerating the flow of Shinsu inside your own body. You then "flow control" the returning shock inside your own body to protect yourself from the backlash. "
Well, unless Baam explods an Orb inside his body as an internal quality control skill (or something similar) which is possible but never shown atm.
The point was just to show that shinsu qualities in general can't be used as a fuel for some highly complexe techniques.
What I mean is that Baam could probably just handwave the application into existence if he wanted to, regardless of how little sense it makes. This sort of concept wouldn't be applicable with other characters. The difference between a god and the mortals beneath him, as it were.
Do you think it's doable to use Shiffon sword with her quality, can Yuri can unleash a Rose petals nuclear punch, can Baam use an Orb Flare Wave explosion ? Some skills simply can't be used with shinsu qualities since they just don't fit with the mecanism.
in the context of my post I meant that yuri having shinsoo hadoken was largely irrelevant to her boost from shinsoo attributes.
I agree in that there are techniques which aren't compatible, I can't imagine what her shifon sword looks like if combined with her attribute. As for an orb floral butterfly... I don't think the orb itself could perform it. As the orb isn't meant to be thrown or to actually touch people. But the orb is meant to enhance and maximize shinsoo control. And not just to shinsoo it fires but also shinsoo around bam. So I do think the orb could be used to enhance bam's flor and reverse flow control. I would even argue we have seen this at work when bam has used his floral butterfly techniques while the orb is active.
They certainly didn't standout among the regulars they were fighting directly (because these regulars were mostly the creme of the creme) but saying that they're barely average is a massive underestimation.
AA could slice an eye to Chang, a top-5 E-class regular, and was confident he could beat him meanwhile Rak could hold himself against Inieta, the strongest of the ten bosses alone and was deemed to be pretty strong by the latter. Based on these facts, it's pretty clear that they're far from being just average half/assed regulars.
It's also an understatement to limit the regulars to just 3 tiers (low, average and strong) when it's pretty clear that there is a shitload of gaps among them even in the same class, just seeing Daniel beating 99 D-class regulars almost effortlessly when he isn't even a top 3 is enough as a proof.
Ran was stronger than either indivdually (prior to learning the qualities) but Khun and Rak being "fodders" in comparison ? That's pretty much either a massive underestimation of them or a massive overstimation of Ran (maybe both).
base Ran without Redan was having trouble against Cassano and Horyang even in a 2v1 fight with Novick's support. The same Cassano who was slashed over and over by Hatsu, fell for his knees a few moments and only managed to break the latter's sword due him being briefly off guard because of a sudden explosion.
This same Hatsu was evenly matched by Khun in the name hunt station (not counting Donhae).
In other hands, "Redan" Ran with everthing he've got was matched by Inieta in a well balanced fight (SIU said it could've went either way without external factors helping Ran), The same Inieta who was injured and strained after his fight against Rak and Yihwa.
If anything, Ran is just "slightly" stronger than a duo of Yihwa&Rak's calibre, by extension, Khun&Rak can arguably beat him in a fight even with Redan.
Also, it's not because they don't show colorful shinsu bangs or skills that Rak and AA are weak in a fight, even against OP regulars. Many are OP with just their body alone (+Shinsu strengthening).
Data Viole is as strong as hidden-floor Baam without the Thorn, Khun and Rak not dying in front of him after a little while show that they've got some resources.
Also Khun going from being highly pressured by Viole even with Rak's help to pressing Viole once he manifested the ice spears is an indication that he suddenly became 2/3 times stronger overall at least. Although natural talent has a role to play, sudden jumps exist in ToG.
Miseng defeated two ticketers who cleared the hell train a long time ago and she did that easily. Seeing how folks like Boro and Moontari are only considered average among the ticketers, her training, several months long, with the shinsu quality certainly transformed her into an extremely strong D-class regular.
___________
Asencio and Icard already stand on a whole another level compared to folks like Sachi.
Do you remember the giant Octopus who one sidely overwhelmed Sachi + Khun + Rak + Hockney + Boro at the same time ? Asencio cleared a way higher difficulty than that octopus who gave them so much trouble and he did it very easily without even using his best skills (the flying fish).
In other words, Asencio can beat Sachi + Khun + Rak + Hockney + Boro simultaneously with ease and just using part of his power. If this is not an immeasurable difference in power, I don't know what is it.
As a side note, base Maschenny without Redan one shotted the bull big breeder Jeok who fought evenly with Asencio with a casual, nameless attack.
Therefore :
base Maschenny can fodderize Asencio using just a little of her power, the same Asencio who can beat Sachi + Khun + Rak + Hockney + Boro simultaneously with ease and just using part of his power.
A better question would be how many of this team of 5 are needed to stand a chance against just Asencio, how many Asnecios are needed to beat base Maschenny and how many base Maschennies are needed to beat Redan Maschenny ?
From another perspective, do you see Maschenny running away or struggling a gainst the following like Endorsi :
-giant soldier
-statue of good and evil
-this champion villain
who are cannon fodders against the big breeder Chung, who in turn is much weaker than the bull big breeder who was fodderized by....base Maschenny.
The hidden floor feats clearly showed that there're several "big gaps" between Endoris and just base Maschenny without Redan.
Do you think it's doable to use Shiffon sword with her quality, can Yuri can unleash a Rose petals nuclear punch, can Baam use an Orb Flare Wave explosion ? Some skills simply can't be used with shinsu qualities since they just don't fit with the mecanism.
Saying that AA and Rak are average can be true or false compared to who you compare too , if you compare them to basic regular of couse they are elite whobare very very strong , but if you compare them to other regular they are average .
My list would be .
Trash : People , like Wangnan , Miseng Novic .
Average : Khun , Rak , Yihwa without her full flame .
Elite : Ran , Yhuwa with her flame , the arie guy who figthed Ran .
The top : who are Kaiser , twin princess plus Marie , Androssi .
It is very very heavy simplification , and in each tier there are massive gap , for example Novic would crush Wangnan and Miseng and Miseng can crush those D rank fooder , and those D rank fodder who boarded the HT will crush lower fodder . I made this simplication because they are so weak that they strength is irrelevant .
Actually now that i recall that Rak was aknowledged by that Arie whi fougth Ran and AA injured Hatsu i think AA and Rak are the top of average , but still not close ti people like Ran .
I don't deem Chang strong . Yeah i think you need to remember that he didn't figth Inieta alone and when he did Inieta just git a new sword and we don't know how the figth went on . And how Inieta fougth given that he didn't even intend to kill Rak , ok let's say that Rak is between elite and the top of average . If he was aknoledged by Inieta that mean he was not trash . But that is only Rak , AA didn't show any feat like that
I still think that given Ran speed and electric power neither can cope with him and theu wouldn't stand a chance . Given is speed injuring him would be lucky .
I think you are being dishonest by using a figth that Ran had way way back to judge hiw strong is AA , Ran is progressing too . i whant to add , that Ran is way more stronger with the Redan .
AA feat is good , but Hatsu with a normal sword is not Ran equal , if he fougth AA with his new sword i would agree with you statement , but him using normal sword is not impressive .
Inietia fougth Rak , Yihwa and a swordmen .
And no Ran is not just shligthy stronger than them , Ran matched Inietia for most of the figth and only had help at the end , wich of course show that Ran was not sure of his win but it doesn't show a massive gap between the 2 , if anything they should be very close . Ran would deal with the trio the same way Inietia did , maybe even bettee given they would have trouble with his speed . Inieta didn'y seem to really have showed any of his trump card to rak and co , he had few bruises that is all , he sure took some time to kill Rak because Rak was good , but is is only that , Inieta didn't really struggle .
I don't think Kun and Rak can beat Ran at that time , he would have trouble but no be beaten , i mean you guys forget that AA is strong enough to tank Inieta ignited sword .
And yeah Rak and AA didn't show any strong attack , they are quite good honeslty but le't not pretend that they fire power come close to the one Ran and Inieta have , they could injure Ran but injuring him seriously would be a different thing .
If you read my previous post you would have know that i said that AA and Khun became much stronger .
And i whant to ask , if you are using HF floor Baam without shinsoo to judge Baam strength , how strong was he ? Because i don't think he was as strong as you guy imply .
Why do i say that ? Because between each arc , and training , and figth most of what Baam did is learning to draw more power from.the torn , i think people think that Baam strength also follow the strength that he have without the torn . Wich is not the case w a good indication of that is Baam physical body wich can't cope with his power with the torn . Whatvi mean is that Baal learn to use more power that doesn't mean that Baam base strength become way more stringer with time . It is quite impressive that they manage to deal with Baam , but i whant to add that we shouldn't forget that they were also heavily advantaged , they knew all Baam skill , they knew his strength and weakness , AA worked with semeone who he also knew very well + i in the end it was only a data , what i whant to say here is that data viole only did repetive action and was incapable of adaptation . But still now that i reread it is a good feat , still i doubt they would deal the same way with a ennemy wuch was as strong as Viole , but they knew nothing about his strength and weakness .
You guy act like wangnan didn't enter the HT , entering HT doesn't mean that you are sttong , it does say that yiu have a certain level of strengh but nothing much , they wouks still be beaten by semeone like Novic , other that that we don't have clear info avout they strengt .
point .
Saying that AA and Rak are average can be true or false compared to who you compare too
It is very very heavy simplification , and in each tier there are massive gap
I see where you came with these tiers but calling a "trash" someone like, say Novick, who can wipe 99% of the regulars of his class as canon fodders either in 1v1 or 1vmany is a little bit disturbing.
I mean the strongest folks of the "trash" tier in your standards can beat dozens or hundreds of most trash tiers at the same time and with ease. Maybe because the story involves top level regulars mostly, you've this impression that Novick is trash and Khun/Rak are just average.
The gap between the weakest and strongest in the trash tier is also drastically bigger than the difference between the weakest average level and the strongest top tier. So, the way you put levels isn't well balanced either and that doesn't help at first glance. Someone who doesn't know how you partitioned the gaps would be stimply in awe.
Yeah i think you need to remember that he didn't figth Inieta alone and when he did Inieta just git a new sword and we don't know how the figth went on .
I'm pretty aware of that and I already mentionned this fact in my previous post if you read it well : If anything, Ran is just "slightly" stronger than a duo of Yihwa&Rak's calibre, by extension, Khun&Rak can arguably beat him in a fight even with Redan.
I'm was comparing Ran to Khun&Rak as a tag team.
I still think that given Ran speed and electric power neither can cope with him and theu wouldn't stand a chance . Given is speed injuring him would be lucky .
A fight is far from being merely about firepower.
Khun's defense as a regular is top-notch, he could block Dynosos legs, Phobos bangs and 3 bangs from Reflejo using his barriers. He only showed his limits when Refejo was about to attack him with 5 bangs. Unless he uses his strongest lightening spears, Ran doesn't stand much of a chance in bypassing his lighthouse barrier but as he know powerful lightening spears (like Espada de la Luz) takes a toll on his body and can't use them much, that's also a weakness.
You also overrate his speed, either against Cassano or Horyang, he needed Novick's support to block them prior to firing his lightening speed and even with that, Horyang could still dodge his long ranged throws.
Excluding the lightening pill, Ran didn't show anything which would put him above the likes of AA, Hatsu, Chang, Horyang, Cassano, Rak, etc. These folks are roughtly arround the same level based on both feats and overall hype.
With Redan, he may be able to take on a tag-team of this calibre but these top-notch regulars are far from being canon fodders in front of him as you said.
The mad shocker is good for both attack and defense, Rak easily matched Cassano's ignited arm using it and when thrown it's destruction capacity becomes insanely high. It's to the point that even someone like Refeljo recognized its might.
You're greatly underrating Rak's DC.
And Rak+Yihwa gave one hell of a fight to Inieta, the latter had seveal cuts in him and was panting right after subding them which implies that he struggled a lot. this fact also confirms my point, a tag team of this level is already more than enough to fight equally with Ran without restrictions.
The swordman was more of a burden than anything, by losing his ignition weapon he made Inieta even stronger and even after receiving such a power up, he still struggled a lot against Rak&Yihwa.
Without him, Rak&Yihwa had a pretty good rate of winning the fight on their own.
Because between each arc , and training , and figth most of what Baam did is learning to draw more power from.the torn , i think people think that Baam strength also follow the strength that he have without the torn
That was never implied anywhere, after the rice pot, the training with the GoGs, completing revolution, he simply became stronger by elevating his stats and learning new skills and obviously the Thorn amp would grow as well in the same proportion since it's nothing more than a multiplier.
The whole Evankhell training was about making his basics strong enough to propertly handle each of his powers, including the Thorn.
Again, the folks who were defeated by Miseng were not only ticketers, they also cleared the hell train and they did it a long time ago, which imply they grew even more. Seeing how the likes of Boro or Moontari are barely average inside the hell train, it says a lot of their power.
Seeing how Moontari, who is an aveage ticketer mistreated base Ran, Miseng quite one sidely beating two at the same time means that she became notably stronger than Novick after mastering her quality.
In fact, even before she was far stronger than your average regular in her Berserk mode as shown when she was sending fodder regulars flying (in the workshop primilinaries) with her superior muscle power.
Maybe because she only fainted 1 mn and got back to her sense , when Androssi was K.o ed directly , maybe because she fougth with Zahard even if he holded back wich is impressive feat , also because Jahad aknoweldged her and she even scracted his weird 3 eye .
you should look at the figth that she did with Zahard , she showed immense speed , she showed also immense fire power , go look at her technique great spear of dawn and let's see if any of Androssi attack came close to that attack .
You can't say that she didn't show anything ilpressive , just standing in front of jahad is impressive wich Androssi wasn't able to do , i admit that i overestimated a bit after re watching it , but she is still superior to Androssi by a good margin .
Resistance to Zahard's mind attack is probably related to strength, but we don't know much about this. Anyway, it doesn't really matter here, it is clear that Maschenny would crush Androssi before the training with Eduan.
Yes, Maschenny was impressive against Data Zahard, but that's the thing: It was against Data Zahard, she was only allowed to show these feats because Data Zahard allowed her to do so, he could have killed her with a finger flick. Maschenny wasn't facing an ace Regular, she was fighting Zahard himself so her feats against him don't mean that she would do that well against the ace Regulars after their training.
Well hoaquin , we don't clearly know his level , but we know that is superior to Kaiser , but not by far , and in my opinion Androssi would deal with Kaiser without that much problem .
Actually she did used a spear you should reread w Jahad broke her sword and her swear was inefficient .
As far as we know Androssi shinsoo quality is not enough to dominate White when she had beta .
Aren't you contradicting yourself here? I agree that Androssi is stronger than Kaiser, she lost because of her carelessness during the game and not by getting overpowered but so is Hoaqin. A.A even said that Elaine was lacking compared to him. Just like Data Maschenny showed that she is better than Ran in every way, so is Hoaqin compared to Inieta who was Elaine's N.2. He has his siblings absorbed, Shinsoo Swords of different effects, thousand of years of experience, Arie Swordsmanship etc. Even Baam needed to absorb souls to be able to defeat him in the Dallar Show. Hoaqin has always been a threat to any D-Rank Regular who isn't Baam, who still needed some time to truly surpass him.
Androssi was dominating Hoaqin with the help of Hwa Ryun and Miseng, she was not overpowering him but he was forced to stay on the defensive, and this actually shows how good he is. I still maintain that with what we have seen of both it would come down to stamina if he were to face Data Maschenny. Maschenny is the one who taught Ran how to fight against Aries, and Ran was going to lose to Inieta without Xia Xia and Dan's help.
The defikition of strong is relative , i woukd call Kaiser dog strong , maschenny kngreat spear of dawn too . Not her weird shinsoo quality , she showed nothing that can make me say this .
Yes it was special for a Hoaquin , who barely had any power , Hoaqin could be in the top 3 and in my opinion not the first , but the fact that she needed Beta is a problem .
There is no evidence that the major way of getting stronger in TOG is training .
At the contrary , we know that even wuthout doing something Ranker become stringer with time , that is a fact .
Hoaqin wasn't weakened. He had all his siblings' souls besides Abelda's, with Albeda he is High Ranker tier so he was at his best as a "Regular". This fight was more of tease, all we learned through this is that Androssi's Attribute is rare and dangerous, but we don't know much about it compared to A.A and Rak's. And even if he was weakened, his opinion about the Attribute would still be valid. Hoaqin is very old and it's an Attribute he has never seen.
Asencio and Icard already stand on a whole another level compared to folks like Sachi.
Do you remember the giant Octopus who one sidely overwhelmed Sachi + Khun + Rak + Hockney + Boro at the same time ? Asencio cleared a way higher difficulty than that octopus who gave them so much trouble and he did it very easily without even using his best skills (the flying fish).
In other words, Asencio can beat Sachi + Khun + Rak + Hockney + Boro simultaneously with ease and just using part of his power. If this is not an immeasurable difference in power, I don't know what is it.
As a side note, base Maschenny without Redan one shotted the bull big breeder Jeok who fought evenly with Asencio with a casual, nameless attack.
Therefore :
base Maschenny can fodderize Asencio using just a little of her power, the same Asencio who can beat Sachi + Khun + Rak + Hockney + Boro simultaneously with ease and just using part of his power.
A better question would be how many of this team of 5 are needed to stand a chance against just Asencio, how many Asnecios are needed to beat base Maschenny and how many base Maschennies are needed to beat Redan Maschenny ?
From another perspective, do you see Maschenny running away or struggling a gainst the following like Endorsi :
-giant soldier
-statue of good and evil
-this champion villain
who are cannon fodders against the big breeder Chung, who in turn is much weaker than the bull big breeder who was fodderized by....base Maschenny.
The hidden floor feats clearly showed that there're several "big gaps" between Endoris and just base Maschenny without Redan.
I agree that Asensio is stronger than the ones mentioned and that Maschenny is much stronger than him. But again here you are comparing the Data Koons to Baam's teammates before their training.
What Data Maschenny should have over Androssi even after the latter's training is superior physical strength and durability since she is a Koon + Zahard which can be enhanced by her Redan. Probably speed too, which can be enhanced by her Redan techniques, but Androssi can boost her speed with Bong Bong and can even teleport and attack with it and now she has her Attribute, which allows her to use much more potent Shinsoo attacks, the issue with Androssi is that we haven't seen her do much with it. Her Teleport would be pretty dangerous against Data Maschenny actually since Redan drains stamina meanwhile Hoaqin wouldn't have to worry about this much because his sword attacks can reach anyone anywhere.
And as I said already Data Maschenny VS Hoaqin is just a fight between a stronger Inieta and Ran. So yeah, to me HF Androssi after her training, Hoaqin and Data Maschenny are definitely in the same ballpark. But overall, I'd say Hoaqin is the strongest of the three because he has no glaring disadvantage matchup-wise.
I agree that Asensio is stronger than the ones mentioned and that Maschenny is much stronger than him. But again here you are comparing the Data Koons to Baam's teammates before their training.
He isn't just stronger, there're several "whole another level" gaps between Asencio and folks of Sachi's calibre and at least two "whole another level" gaps between Asencio and Maschenny (Redan Mas' >> base Mas' >> Asencio).
Hwang only threatened Khun of raising the difficulty of the villain but he actually didn't. And even if he did, it still doesn't prove that he is even close to Asencio in power giving the latter fought on par with Jeok.
Asencio ~ Jeok >> Chung >> any champion villain/Statue of good&evil/Giant soldier > Endorsi&Hansung.
Defeating a champion villain even with ease is irrelevant giving Asencio can compete with the second strongest big breeder.
Lineage isn't that important, we've had countless examples which contradicts this fact :
-Jinsung is the grandson of Yurin, yet we know that Lucci who is Edahn's son is cannon fodder material compared to him (and the same goes for LPB branch heads).
-Among the thousands of FHs DDs, only selected few showed the potential to reach the top 300.
-Elaine who is a daugther of an average/weak branch is "born" with more talents than people from the main family.
-Ran is a DD from a renowned branch in the Khun family, yet he is cannon fodder material to people with branch head potentiality like Asencio.
-Inieta isn't from the main Arie family, yet his talent are on par with DDs of Arie Hon.
And the list goes on.
The same goes for Jahad princesses selection. We know for a fact that Hansung is enough talented to become a princess if he was a girl (according to snake charmer), yet we know based on his feats and showings that he's cannon fodder material compared to folks like Asencio or Icardi.
Based on these facts, comparing two individuals based on their lineage is irrelevent, especially when we've got feats to go with. From what we could see, Endorsi with Bong Bong is already cannon fodder material to Asencio/Icardi, let alone Maschenny :
Redan Maschenny >> base Maschenny >> Asencio ~ Jeok >> Chung >> any champion villain/Statue of good&evil/Giant soldier > Endorsi&Hansung > Endorsi
The fact that Hoaqin was repeled by Endorsi's kick when her shinsu quality didn't do much to it proves that her shinsu quality barely increased her power (rather her versatility and just that).
And Endorsi having the upper hand against him despite Hwaryun's help proves that Asencio is already far stronger than him and can beat him very easily and as we know Data Mas' can fodderize Asencio in base who in turn can fodderize Hoaqin.
Feats speak for themselves.
He isn't just stronger, there're several "whole another level" gaps between Asencio and folks of Sachi's calibre and at least two "whole another level" gaps between Asencio and Maschenny (Redan Mas' >> base Mas' >> Asencio).
Hwang only threatened Khun of raising the difficulty of the villain but he actually didn't. And even if he did, it still doesn't prove that he is even close to Asencio in power giving the latter fought on par with Jeok.
Asencio ~ Jeok >> Chung >> any champion villain/Statue of good&evil/Giant soldier > Endorsi&Hansung.
Defeating a champion villain even with ease is irrelevant giving Asencio can compete with the second strongest big breeder.
Lineage isn't that important, we've had countless examples which contradicts this fact :
-Jinsung is the grandson of Yurin, yet we know that Lucci who is Edahn's son is cannon fodder material compared to him (and the same goes for LPB branch heads).
-Among the thousands of FHs DDs, only selected few showed the potential to reach the top 300.
-Elaine who is a daugther of an average/weak branch is "born" with more talents than people from the main family.
-Ran is a DD from a renowned branch in the Khun family, yet he is cannon fodder material to people with branch head potentiality like Asencio.
-Inieta isn't from the main Arie family, yet his talent are on par with DDs of Arie Hon.
And the list goes on.
The same goes for Jahad princesses selection. We know for a fact that Hansung is enough talented to become a princess if he was a girl (according to snake charmer), yet we know based on his feats and showings that he's cannon fodder material compared to folks like Asencio or Icardi.
Based on these facts, comparing two individuals based on their lineage is irrelevent, especially when we've got feats to go with. From what we could see, Endorsi with Bong Bong is already cannon fodder material to Asencio/Icardi, let alone Maschenny :
Redan Maschenny >> base Maschenny >> Asencio ~ Jeok >> Chung >> any champion villain/Statue of good&evil/Giant soldier > Endorsi&Hansung > Endorsi
The fact that Hoaqin was repeled by Endorsi's kick when her shinsu quality didn't do much to it proves that her shinsu quality barely increased her power (rather her versatility and just that).
And Endorsi having the upper hand against him despite Hwaryun's help proves that Asencio is already far stronger than him and can beat him very easily and as we know Data Mas' can fodderize Asencio in base who in turn can fodderize Hoaqin.
Feats speak for themselves.
There are many reasons for that.
Let's start with Baam's party feats against some beasts far weaker than a big breeder :
-Vs the demon of good and evil : Baam was forced to use both the Thorn + Hansung's amplification skill to beat it at a fast rate.
-Vs the giant soldier : Endorsi and Hansung were forced to run away alongside Baam when he showed up.
-Vs a giant rat : Baam was struggling against its agility (although he wasn't using the Thorn).
-Vs a champion villain : It was implied that it'd take a long time for Baam and Endorsi to beat it giving its high shinsu resistance.
Compared to them, Acensio cleared the hardest grand quest and effortlessly defeated a champion villain far stronger than the octopus who gave so much trouble to Sachi+Khun+Boro+Rak+Hockney at the same time.
In fact, he didn't even used his full power while doing so as his signature ability, the flying spear technique wasn't unleashed.
Above all, it was implied that Baam had no chance against the big breeder Jeok, the same dude that Asencio fought equally with and was one shotted later by Maschenny.
Therefore, we know that :
Data Asencio (flying fish) >> Data Asencio (average skill) >> Chrome cutter >>> Sachi + Khun + Rak + Boro + Hockney
And :
Redan Maschenny >> base Maschenny >> Asencio >> Baam (with Thorn+Shinwonryuu) prior to Edahn's training.
Did Endorsi really became so much stronger after finding and training her shinsu quality ?
Based on feats, White dealt with her quality better than her kick. After all, he continuously countered their strikes albeit with difficuly but when she kicked him (alongside Beta but I doubt his strenght is close to Endorsi's, so it doesn't matter much), he was sent him flying in one swoop.
Furtheremore, that was just a basic kick since Bong Bong's amplificatiaon wasn't added to boost the destructive capacity.
Endorsi certainly became more versatil, but it's nothing like a massive power up in a similar fashion to Khun or Rak. SIU pointed in a blogpost that learning shinsu qualities was a mean for these two to catch up to the highest level possible alongside Sachi and Endorsi, so not a proper power up for the princess herself. And anyway, she already had a powerful set of abilities (high physical might, Bong Bong, Yuri's skill, etc).
Based on these facts, quality or not, she would've still struggled in a similar fashion when confronted to the same beasts that she faced in the hidden floor. So, by extension, there is a gap between her and data Khuns and White shouldn't be far stronger than her giving their fight (albeit with Hwaryun and Beta's support).
About Maschenny, she literally one shotted the big breeder in base => the same big breeder who fought equally with data Asencio and was noted to be dramatically stronger than Baam prior to Edahn's training.
When she faced Data Jahad, the latter used Lecalicus to beat her, which means that he acknowledged her as a true opponent.
Finally, Baam was only recognized as a true ennemy (symbolized by Lecalicus 1st form usage) when he unleashed revolution at full swing.
In other words, even after Edahn's training, data Maschenny was still stronger than Baam without revolution (also, don't get me wrong, with revolution, Baam becomes far stronger tha Mas').
As such, this is yet another proof of her being >>>> White or post-shinsu quality Endorsi.
Let's see how things work from a shinsu quality's perspective again.
We know that Maschenny is from the Maschenny branch. As such, she trained her quality since ages ago unlike Endorsi who just trained hers for a month just recently. Mas' also knows how to use both internal (Redan) and external quality controls.
Furhteremore, the lightening spear is one of Edahn's three shinsu qualities who are said to be exceptional among the family heads. Endorsi's quality never received such a hype and her feats were very underwhelming (as shown against White).
What's more so, SIU noted that compared to other princesses, Endorsi is warm and human (implying that she is weak for a princess). In contrast, current Maschenny is one of the strongest princesses.
Therefore, no matter how you look at it, there was an extremely massive gap between data Maschenny and regulars of White or HF Endorsi's calibre. Even Data Asencio/Icardi showed far better feats and their portrayal was simply better.
Agreed with data massy demolishing white,endorsi and baam's team but where did you get the idea of maschenny giving fun to data z? She wasn't even able to scratch him much less giving fun to him. Data z only used lecalius because of her courage nothing less,he literally stated himself. If data z find the fight as fun then that means he smiles like idiot and shows his canine teeth, which he didn't show againist data maschenny. You are obviously giving mas too much credit in here. Baam post revolution would still defeat mas without thorn considering he was able to fight with data z in a shinsu battle. Agreed with data asensio clearing every quest quite easily but don't show big breeder as evidence in here considering big breeders were in their field which made them pratically invincible when they were fighting with baam and baam's team also big breeders were able to get data z's power too while asensio fought with a big breeder who wasn't on his field as well as not getting any power from data z.
I would also make the point that not that many people have seen Endrosi's shinsoo attribute. So... there's hardly anyone that could have made the point of how rare or special it is. So far the only one that has faced it is white and he, an arie swordsman, commented on how difficult it was to follow. Even what little androsi's attribute has shown to me at least looks absurd. She can create many needle like shinsoo objects which she can control at a distance to attack from many directions at once. Reminds me of how one fits with a carrier with many weapons attacked to it except that there is no string necessary (so far). To me it's a hard sell that this isn't BS levels of exceptional. I mean, it's homing flexible needles... even shinsoo spears have to be thrown at least.
I would also make the point that not that many people have seen Endrosi's shinsoo attribute. So... there's hardly anyone that could have made the point of how rare or special it is. So far the only one that has faced it is white and he, an arie swordsman, commented on how difficult it was to follow. Even what little androsi's attribute has shown to me at least looks absurd. She can create many needle like shinsoo objects which she can control at a distance to attack from many directions at once. Reminds me of how one fits with a carrier with many weapons attacked to it except that there is no string necessary (so far). To me it's a hard sell that this isn't BS levels of exceptional. I mean, it's homing flexible needles... even shinsoo spears have to be thrown at least.
