Discussion Meaningful Fights

[Aliblack]

“For a fight to have meaning, it must be essential to your story. Throwing in fights just to keep the reader’s attention and the action quotient high is something that Hollywood is often guilty of, but you don’t want to emulate a forgettable popcorn flick. Ask yourself what the purpose of the fight scene is. Is it to reveal character? To set up a crucial plot point that will have ramifications later? To create motivations for the protagonist or the antagonist? Write the action sequence with a focus on that goal.
If you remove the fight scene, does the storyline completely fall apart? It should. If your story is unaffected by the outcome of the fight, then your fight scene is unnecessary. In other words: the outcome of the fight must have crucial and irreversible consequences.” Fonda Lee

Maybe, it is an exaggeration that a story needs to fall apart if we take away a fight scene. However, it is a good criterion when looking at action scenes from this perspective. It gives you a theoretical rule to judge them and how they can be served to develop a narrative. A good fight is not necessarily an obstacle to the story. It can be used to develop deeper characters.

The fight between Ran and Anak is often mentioned as a good fight in terms of choreography and clarity. What is missed out in these discussions is that the fight was used to reveal characters and make us see them in a new light.

After seeing Ho take his life, Bam realized people live for their dreams. It gave him the motivation to fight for Rachel’s dream to climb the tower. when he and Androssi fought against Quant was for the sake of showing that goal.

The fight between Bam and Hoaqin in The Dallar Show was a battle of ideologies. Bam was the representative of humanity and White, the law of the jungle. Bam's belief was that human life is priceless. No amount of money or other goods (see goods as gaining power for White) equals the value of human life. Bam endangered his own life and his companions’ by saving White’s teammates. White believed the weak should be used by the strong and that humans’ lives are neither equal nor priceless.

Many other examples can be given, say, the game between Love and Viole ending up with the clash of Wangnan and Lurker, but I think this is enough. Fights can be important and be used to develop a more engaging narrative.

P.S:

1. The full version of Lee's essay can be found here.
2. All these fights can be understood and read in a variety of ways. A fight might serve several purposes in the story. What I said here are just a few of them. For example, in Bam and Androssi’s fight against the ranker, it was shown that Androssi can fight very smartly against her opponents, and rankers, known as gods for regulars, can be taken down under some conditions and constraints.
3. This is what Bam believed at that point (The Dallar Show) in the story. I didn’t talk about whether he modified his view of human life, or whether he didn’t act based on this belief. What’s more, there is a difference between what a character says and how he acts. Actions are louder than words, after all. The true nature of a character will be known under pressure. The greater the pressure you put him under, the more he reveals.

 

[Demonspeed]

I am not saying I agree with all of this but this is why Baam VS White was a good fight in this arc unlike Baam VS Ranker/High Ranker X or stuff.

Sometimes a good choreography is enough too. But not everyone is that good at drawing fights and if you are attached to some characters it might get boring.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

...
...
...
"Discuss"
- @Aliblack , maybe

Yes, yes... it's implied, but still. I was missing the impetus to reply which is a bit ironic considering the topic itself.




Which is why S3 started to feel more like 'just another' Marvel movie (given the fights) from the MCU, which start to feel forgetable and indistinguishable from the other films in the same universe (swap out X hero or XYZ group and/or swap out big-bad A for big-bad B... utilize a giant-blue explosion to kill off big-bad ___, rinse, repeat). Also ironic because SIU has tipped his hat to Marvel making it over a decade while showing no sign of stopping (in some blog) which could hint at his desire to drag the ToG story out indefinitely.

I'd also question whether the Baam v White fight was 'good' @Demonspeed ... it seemed ill-timed, out-of-place, and let's talk about the outcome and MEANS... oh, boy. I understand this is subjective though.

 

[King Dryst]

Baam VS White was a good fight

Would have been, had SIU not botched the ending so horribly. That left a rotten aftertaste that just ruined the entire experience.

 

[Aliblack]

"Discuss"
- @Aliblack , maybe

Yes, yes... it's implied, but still. I was missing the impetus to reply which is a bit ironic considering the topic itself.

LOL. Actually, I wanted to put something like "discuss" at the end of the post. But, well, I thought maybe the topic wouldn't be interesting for many to talk about it. So I left it to the readers to decide to comment or not.

Also ironic because SIU has tipped his hat to Marvel making it over a decade while showing no sign of stopping (in some blog) which could hint at his desire to drag the ToG story out indefinitely.

Interesting! I didn't know about that. I myself watched Marvel movies at some point. Not because I thought they were great but because I was interested in sci-fi movies and wanted to get entertained a little. The last one I saw was Avengers: Endgame. That movie was horrible. I stopped watching them after it.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

LOL. Actually, I wanted to put something like "discuss" at the end of the post. But, well, I thought maybe the topic wouldn't be interesting for many to talk about it. So I left it to the readers to decide to comment or not.


Interesting! I didn't know about that. I myself watched Marvel movies at some point. Not because I thought they were great but because I was interested in sci-fi movies and wanted to get entertained a little. The last one I saw was Avengers: Endgame. That movie was horrible. I stopped watching them after it.

Well, you might relate to this then (the blog I alluded to):

Vol.3 Ch.11: 52F - Stealing the Fang (2)

52F - Stealing the Fang (2): This is the eleventh chapter of Volume 3 of Tower of God. TBA Why is Yama’s brother here all of a sudden? Hello, this is SIU. This is Season 3 Chapter 11. I personally like the feel that the number 11 has. haha. This week's picture is High Ranker Paul, who just...

towerofgod.fandom.com

"A while back I finally watched the last Avengers movie, which I had been postponing because I was busy (There's gonna be more marvel I know, but this is the last Avengers film, right?) To see a (sic) franchise that started when I was still in university end after my 30s... This was an ending that wasn't only achieved by the movie itself but the history attached to it. When I saw this movie that was able to successfully maintain this long flow till the end, I couldn't help but feel overwhelmed with a sense of respect and awe. Although nothing to compared to these world class movies, but I have been drawing Tower of God for a long time now, so I hope to continue making Tower of God joyfully with you guys."



To me he here seems to be inspired by the MCU track record, and continued out indefinitely, thinks of his own long history, and hopes to emulate their success as long as possible. Meaning I don't think he has plans to wrap anything up any time soon, but that's jut me reading into a random blogpost....

 

[Jammin]

I agree with the spirit of the essay.

Though it fails to account a bit for genre and preference. Because to what degree a fight scene should justify it's existence in order to belong is a subjective judgement that varies from person to person and the expectations associated with various genres.

For example, in certain genres like battle mangas, kung fu, or actions movies there is an expectation that fights will happen frequently. Often for weak reasons. This is not poor writing so much as meeting the expectations and preferences of those coming to read the work for those features. Most readers aren't coming to those genres for realism and depth.

While even in that case I would hope it would serve some narrative purpose of some sort and hold to a consistent set of rules. Some don't even care about that really, they just enjoy the spectacle.

 

[shionoro]

First let me admit: I stopped reading Tower of God a long time ago. I know what is happening rn and overall, but somewhere in S2, i stopped reading closely.
However, this topic is interesting to me on a general level.

Usually, it makes sense to look at two things in a story: the outer plot and the inner plot. The outer Plot are things like "will Baam be able to clear the deathmatch early on floor 2?". This kind of plot is usually what you would associate with tension.
It is interesting to suddenly see all these people, including rak and khun, going at it. Even if it did not have any narrative meaning, that would be pretty cool.
Even had Baam not met Khun and Rak there but just duked it out with random fodder, it would have been a pretty good scene and i would not say it needed to be cut.
Of course, yes, every single thing in a story should have SOME merit, but tension and keeping your readers interested has its own merit.

But you also need to care for the inner plot. THe inner plot, in that arc, is about Baam'S character development and meeting Rak and Khun is a huge part of it, so the outer plot becomes a vehicle for the inner plot to happen at certain points of it.

These two things need to move hand in hand. Without a proper outer plot, the inner plot cannot happen (why would Baam even approach or be approachen by Rak and Khun?), without an inner plot, the outer plot can seem meaningless (if Baam would always just fight fodder people without names).

Tower of God's problem is, in my opinion, not that it has a lot of battles that might not seem super meaningful. Was the bullet game in which Baa, fought Lee's team super relevant? I don't think it was, Androssi got bong bong but really, had you cut it a lot shorter, nothing much would be lost. Was it interesting and fun? I think it was.
THe problem is that SIU got worse and worse at outer plots, he stopped caring for them and also made them much larger and thus less concise.

IN the early parts of Tower of God, part of the fun was really understanding the rules of the game, seeing characters trying their all to beat the game and find good ways to proceed. Especially in arc 1, it was very rewarding to read the "game of tag" and look at the different strategies the characters came up with. SIU also put emphasis on how they felt, psychologically, when being close to being failed.
That is just very strong outer plot, and adding character development to that made it even better. Having such an exciting game of tag and then adding the Ho thing on top of it, that's just good writing.
If it would have been a lame game that does not matter, not so much, then the Ho thing would not have worked as well.

SIU stopped doing it like that. The games are not the focus of the show anymore, in my opinion they stopped being that in the warehouse battle. Take the dallar game: Heart to your chest, did it actually matter? The whole thing was solved by baam fighting White in a 1n1 fight, you did not need a game to do that. That is different from arc 1, a game of Tag was not solved by Baam just fighting Quant.

THe readers notice that the games are actually "fluff". There are countless of characters now that all dont really end up mattering, there are always "games" just like in the dallar game with all kinds of rules that do not really end up being important. ANd that is A LOT of content that does not end up actually being important or interesting.

SIU is very interested into worldbuilding, but since he stopped showing concise outer plots that have an inner continuum and that are not an excuse for characters to fight, he cannot bring out the same narrative power he used to have. And that is a shame.

 

[hblock]

IN the early parts of Tower of God, part of the fun was really understanding the rules of the game, seeing characters trying their all to beat the game and find good ways to proceed.

That being said, I don't think survival games is the only way to elaborate a good outer plot. A war context if not poorly executed is an even more enjoyful implmentation since it generate more tension, more deaths, more tragedy. You won't be bound by a set of fabricated game rules but you will be limited by the laws of nature for sure. PLus, the amount of knowledge you've on your ennemies as well as strategy might be a great factor as well.
The stakes are usually higher compared to a game context, the output much darker, which woud lead to exploring more lore, more character development and world building. All in all, everything correlates.

In this aspect, I think the 1st part of the nest arc (pre-hiatus) was quite good, not extraordinary or amazing but it had its own merit. Switching to a game strife in the middle of a war however wasn't a good choice since it was a tension breaker (a war being nothing less than a superset of survival games), everything became much lighter and irrelevant all of sudden. Again, not that the game itself was nearly quite as complex or strategy-driven than what we usually get, it just led to unnecessary 1v1 fights with no overall impact most of the time.
The art deterioration (not SIU's fault) as well as many contradictions of the already established lore (what the hell are tiny, little regulars doing in a battlefield filled with HRs) also played a good part in the sudden decrease in terms of quality.

Another point, while many don't like big explosions. If the art if amazing, then I pretty much enjoy such scenneries (Evankhell vs El'&the 4th corps, Urek vs HJ, Baam vs Data Jahad, Data Jahad vs Data Edahn, etc, all of these fights were a feast to the eyes), I mean the way things are illustrated alone might be very expressfull on top of adding their own unique vibe to the whole as well tension. Well-drawn big explosions are a good plus if not overused and implmented in the right timing.

 

[shionoro]

That being said, I don't think survival games is the only way to elaborate a good outer plot. A war context if not poorly executed is an even more enjoyful implmentation since it generate more tension, more deaths, more tragedy. You won't be bound by a set of fabricated game rules but you will be limited by the laws of nature for sure. PLus, the amount of knowledge you've on your ennemies as well as strategy might be a great factor as well.
The stakes are usually higher compared to a game context, the output much darker, which woud lead to exploring more lore, more character development and world building. All in all, everything correlates.

In this aspect, I think the 1st part of the nest arc (pre-hiatus) was quite good, not extraordinary or amazing but it had its own merit. Switching to a game strife in the middle of a war however wasn't a good choice since it was a tension breaker (a war being nothing less than a superset of survival games), everything became much lighter and irrelevant all of sudden. Again, not that the game itself was nearly quite as complex or strategy-driven than what we usually get, it just led to unnecessary 1v1 fights with no overall impact most of the time.
The art deterioration (not SIU's fault) as well as many contradictions of the already established lore (what the hell are tiny, little regulars doing in a battlefield filled with HRs) also played a good part in the sudden decrease in terms of quality.

Another point, while many don't like big explosions. If the art if amazing, then I pretty much enjoy such scenneries (Evankhell vs El'&the 4th corps, Urek vs HJ, Baam vs Data Jahad, Data Jahad vs Data Edahn, etc, all of these fights were a feast to the eyes), I mean the way things are illustrated alone might be very expressfull on top of adding their own unique vibe to the whole as well tension. Well-drawn big explosions are a good plus if not overused and implmented in the right timing.

I think a war arc is what many mangaka attempt to do but most cannot do it properly at all.
"War" is not really an outer plot all in itself, like a survival game is. Because it does not really imply plot on the smaller level.

A survival game has characters obviously spend most of their time either trying to figure out games, attempting to beat them or preparing between games.
You could say a war arc has both sides trying to gain the upper hand, but that is a VERY broad conflict. What you really need is a smaller but more concrete plot that you follow properly.
One Piece did it well by having "saving ace" as the mainplotpoint in the whole war.

You need a thing to properly connect all the plots. Ideally, the climax of the arc (fight or not) is the climax of both the outer and inner plot. It was not just a war, most characters dearly wanted to save ace or save the marine base and the big resolution, whitebeard and ace dying, put all of these both tense and emotional plots to a resolution.
In Tower of god, you see many characters doing battle for all kinds of different reasons, many of which have nothing to do with the arc, then baam comes around and punches out the big bad in a fight that may or may not have something to do with the arc thematically.
Caesar arc is a good example, The whole namegame thing was kinda irrelevant, androssi being a slave was just a functional reason for baam going there, then baam defeats caesar and that's that. Nothing had anything to do with anything, and if it had, it was just functional.

 

[King Dryst]

Caesar arc is a good example, The whole namegame thing was kinda irrelevant, androssi being a slave was just a functional reason for baam going there, then baam defeats caesar and that's that. Nothing had anything to do with anything, and if it had, it was just functional.

This wasn't really the case though. Baam went to the Name Hunt Station because he needed to take Kaiser's name so that Yuri would let him go to the Floor of Death. He didn't know that Androssi and her group were there until after arriving.

 

[Demonspeed]

First let me admit: I stopped reading Tower of God a long time ago. I know what is happening rn and overall, but somewhere in S2, i stopped reading closely.
However, this topic is interesting to me on a general level.

Usually, it makes sense to look at two things in a story: the outer plot and the inner plot. The outer Plot are things like "will Baam be able to clear the deathmatch early on floor 2?". This kind of plot is usually what you would associate with tension.
It is interesting to suddenly see all these people, including rak and khun, going at it. Even if it did not have any narrative meaning, that would be pretty cool.
Even had Baam not met Khun and Rak there but just duked it out with random fodder, it would have been a pretty good scene and i would not say it needed to be cut.
Of course, yes, every single thing in a story should have SOME merit, but tension and keeping your readers interested has its own merit.

But you also need to care for the inner plot. THe inner plot, in that arc, is about Baam'S character development and meeting Rak and Khun is a huge part of it, so the outer plot becomes a vehicle for the inner plot to happen at certain points of it.

These two things need to move hand in hand. Without a proper outer plot, the inner plot cannot happen (why would Baam even approach or be approachen by Rak and Khun?), without an inner plot, the outer plot can seem meaningless (if Baam would always just fight fodder people without names).

Tower of God's problem is, in my opinion, not that it has a lot of battles that might not seem super meaningful. Was the bullet game in which Baa, fought Lee's team super relevant? I don't think it was, Androssi got bong bong but really, had you cut it a lot shorter, nothing much would be lost. Was it interesting and fun? I think it was.
THe problem is that SIU got worse and worse at outer plots, he stopped caring for them and also made them much larger and thus less concise.

IN the early parts of Tower of God, part of the fun was really understanding the rules of the game, seeing characters trying their all to beat the game and find good ways to proceed. Especially in arc 1, it was very rewarding to read the "game of tag" and look at the different strategies the characters came up with. SIU also put emphasis on how they felt, psychologically, when being close to being failed.
That is just very strong outer plot, and adding character development to that made it even better. Having such an exciting game of tag and then adding the Ho thing on top of it, that's just good writing.
If it would have been a lame game that does not matter, not so much, then the Ho thing would not have worked as well.

SIU stopped doing it like that. The games are not the focus of the show anymore, in my opinion they stopped being that in the warehouse battle. Take the dallar game: Heart to your chest, did it actually matter? The whole thing was solved by baam fighting White in a 1n1 fight, you did not need a game to do that. That is different from arc 1, a game of Tag was not solved by Baam just fighting Quant.

THe readers notice that the games are actually "fluff". There are countless of characters now that all dont really end up mattering, there are always "games" just like in the dallar game with all kinds of rules that do not really end up being important. ANd that is A LOT of content that does not end up actually being important or interesting.

SIU is very interested into worldbuilding, but since he stopped showing concise outer plots that have an inner continuum and that are not an excuse for characters to fight, he cannot bring out the same narrative power he used to have. And that is a shame.

You didn't like the Dallar Game? First time I see someone not liking it. I think it was pretty good. A.A. VS Rachel was nice, there was Yihwa's awakening + Hoaqin was a step up compared to Baam's previous opponents and the first one he fought with hatred. I will always remember this fight because it's the first time Baam swore .

 

[shionoro]

You didn't like the Dallar Game? First time I see someone not liking it. I think it was pretty good. A.A. VS Rachel was nice, there was Yihwa's awakening + Hoaqin was a step up compared to Baam's previous opponents and the first one he fought with hatred. I will always remember this fight because it's the first time Baam swore .

Its not like the fights itself were bad. I just remember the dallar game for it being the point where i finally thought "old tog is absolutely dead", because how much of a nonfactor it was and how convoluted the rules were.

I do remember reading ToG in arc 1 on Batoto back then and everyone rereading chaps and looking through the backround, looking for hidden clues about what might happen behind the scenes. ToG had that level of respect from its readers, theorizing every little thing and going through the character lists to check for hidden things.
And people did that because it seemed like SIU put a lot of care into his plot, so much that it was not just a narrative device but something you could dig deep into to find stuff.

The more ToG went on, i stopped feeling like details mattered. The dallar game was one such situation. You remember the whole white/hoaqin plot with the clones and stuff? I just felt like i didnt completely understand it and it didnt matter that i didnt understand it, and that kinda made me lose a lot of interest back then.

 

[Jammin]

I'm with Demon, I actually thought the Dallar game was one of SIUs best. Which I think sort of showcases how difficult manga and webtoon authors have it in terms of what they write and how their audience receives it.

While I'm absolutely guilty of this as well, as someone who does tend to play armchair critic. I see things from my perspective as a reader.

Like I don't understand why he has invested so heavily into FUG. I personally do not and have not cared for them as an element in story. But I know there are fans out there that love that part of ToG. And SIU is in the position where he has to make the calls and what he wants to do in the story. A lot of times no matter what decision he makes somebody is going to be unhappy. That's just the nature of success in writing.

Which to return to the topic of fights in ToG, and how much weight and meaning they should have, I think the "right" answer to that is entirely dependent on what a particular reader wants from the series.

-----------------------------

With that in mind I can only really speak for myself on what I want. What I want from ToG, what would make me happiest, are less battles and a return to more character focused storytelling. Because when it comes down to it. I, personally, don't care about fights and I don't care about power levels. I definitely don't care about factional drama.

What pulled me into ToG initially was the idea of all these character undergoing this difficult and dangerous trial in order to realize their "dream". Whatever that may be. Exploring characters and having them compete with one another for whatever reason as they strive to reach the top and to see what they find when they get there. And who they become along the way. This FUG stuff, dead end for me. Baam as an ascending god or whatever, also a dead end. Baam fighting his way through like the 10 families and Zahard, that's fine as like a setting. But it's not what I'm hear to read either. I'm hear to read about the characters and that's it. So what makes me happy is going to be different than the fans more interested in fights. And what makes me happy probably won't make them happy.