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Discussion My thoughts on Griffith

POW

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I think the attempted suicide part is ambiguous as he falls into the lake and it appears at first he was gonna stab his neck but then he noticed the Behilt. At least that's how I always read it but it is possible that was all misdirection and he was always aiming for the Behilt but who knows.
 

BASED Shinigami

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I think the attempted suicide part is ambiguous as he falls into the lake and it appears at first he was gonna stab his neck but then he noticed the Behilt. At least that's how I always read it but it is possible that was all misdirection and he was always aiming for the Behilt but who knows.
Well let's look at the chapter. In the first image we see he notice the sharp jagged piece of earth protruding udward a few feet away from him. He crawls to it.


Then in the next page he places his neck unto the sharp point to point where blood is flowing.


I don't think this part is in any way ambiguous. He clearly tries to take his life but stops short of going all the way. That's when he notices the Behelit in the water like you said.
 

smokeesid

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I wanted to add that Guts had already shown to Griffith that he has his own reasons to live or he would find one when he left Griffith(and his dream) after the 100 year war. There was undoubtedly friendship in between the two. So before the eclipse, when Guts ran to Griffith and held his shoulder and showed his friendship to Griffith then Griffith failed to reciprocate mainly because he had abandoned his own reasons to live. He deemed someone his friend only when he has his own reasons to live or dreams to chase that comes above everything else. Guts had proven himself to Griffith. But now, Griffith is not the same person. So because of what he thought, he cannot be Guts' friend despite having bond with him. It's same as the time when Griffith didn't consider Guts to be his friend despite having bond with him. And so he turned away from Guts and everything else. And when you abandon something then your attachment to it screams the most.

However, it is my opinion and everyone is entitled to their own.
 
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REN KOUEN

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He didn't attempt suicide. He overheard the conversation in between Caska and Guts where she was urging him to go and find his own dream and his reasons to live without clinging on to something/someone because he is Griffith's friend (while Guts wanted to stay with caska and Griffith). That made Griffith recollect his past self, His obsession towards his dream and his childhood desire. And in a desperate act of clinging to his dream, he started driving the horse-cart back to where they came from. His fall in the pond was accidental.

No one knows the complete procedure. Pouring blood on it is a part of it. If it was that simple then magicians like Flora and others must have known.
damn , i need to go re-read that in the manga now

the movie seriously made it seem like he intended to shove his neck down onto that sharp rock
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Well let's look at the chapter. In the first image we see he notice the sharp jagged piece of earth protruding udward a few feet away from him. He crawls to it.


Then in the next page he places his neck unto the sharp point to point where blood is flowing.


I don't think this part is in any way ambiguous. He clearly tries to take his life but stops short of going all the way. That's when he notices the Behelit in the water like you said.
thats what i thought
 

smokeesid

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damn , i need to go re-read that in the manga now

the movie seriously made it seem like he intended to shove his neck down onto that sharp rock
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

thats what i thought
No I am sorry I overlooked that part in your post.
 

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What makes Griffith so utterly delicious as a villain is his complexity and how (most) of his actions are "justified", even from the reader's point of view. Long story short: Griffith showed repeatedly throughout the Golden Age flashback the stress losing his loyal followers had on him, which caused him to slowly spiral into more questionable actions as his desperation to honor the lives of the living and dead weighed upon him. Prior to the Eclipse, this is best exemplified when he prostituted himself to Gennon after staring at the corpse of a little boy for who god knows how long. Griffith had to keep himself in denial about what he truly feels, otherwise he'd collapse, which he eventually did when Guts left.

This is his principle argument when he countered Guts' accusation of betrayal after the Mock Eclipse. In his mind, he did wish for their deaths, but there was no betrayal. The true betrayal would have been to give up, causing all the sacrifices contributed to Griffith's cause to be for naught, especially after the torture he had endured for the past year. In other words, to betray his dream was to betray every person who had ever fought for Griffith, which is one of his major reasons for accepting the God Hand's offer. In Griffith's mind, every life counts. During the Eclipse, the Band of the Hawk was granted the "honor" of being the fuel that bestowed him godlike powers in order to make his dream a reality. During the Mock Eclipse, the peasants were granted the "honor" of being the fuel that bestowed him the flesh he needed in order to carry out the wishes of the both the dead and the living. During the Kushan Invasion, the invaders, specifically Ganishka, were granted the "honor" of being the fuel that bestowed him the means to merge the Astral World with the Material World in order to grant mankind's wish of a harsh utopia, Falconia. Griffith's actions have undeniably benefited mankind as a whole, but what makes him so twisted and villainous is how he accomplishes his goal, by piling mountain of corpses wherever he goes. So many people have died and this is what makes Griffith so dangerous. He doesn't know when to stop because he is blinded by the dangers his ambition poses to others, including himself.

On the matter with raping Casca and forcing Guts to watch is "justified" in Griffith's mind. Casca and Guts "betrayed" him. In reality, it isn't true since it was done out of 100% pure spite, but this is how Griffith perceives the situation. This is probably the main reason Griffith lost interest in harming Guts and Casca after ch. 180. They're not a threat to his plans and leaving them alive as they are in their current states is a more fitting punishment than simply killing them, hence the "Nyah! Nyah!" stunt Griffith pulled when he left Guts behind in the snow, a callback to what Guts did Griffith several years prior. His development combined with wanting to get his comeuppance is what makes him a great villain.
 

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What makes Griffith so utterly delicious as a villain is his complexity and how (most) of his actions are "justified", even from the reader's point of view. Long story short: Griffith showed repeatedly throughout the Golden Age flashback the stress losing his loyal followers had on him, which caused him to slowly spiral into more questionable actions as his desperation to honor the lives of the living and dead weighed upon him. Prior to the Eclipse, this is best exemplified when he prostituted himself to Gennon after staring at the corpse of a little boy for who god knows how long. Griffith had to keep himself in denial about what he truly feels, otherwise he'd collapse, which he eventually did when Guts left.

This is his principle argument when he countered Guts' accusation of betrayal after the Mock Eclipse. In his mind, he did wish for their deaths, but there was no betrayal. The true betrayal would have been to give up, causing all the sacrifices contributed to Griffith's cause to be for naught, especially after the torture he had endured for the past year. In other words, to betray his dream was to betray every person who had ever fought for Griffith, which is one of his major reasons for accepting the God Hand's offer. In Griffith's mind, every life counts. During the Eclipse, the Band of the Hawk was granted the "honor" of being the fuel that bestowed him godlike powers in order to make his dream a reality. During the Mock Eclipse, the peasants were granted the "honor" of being the fuel that bestowed him the flesh he needed in order to carry out the wishes of the both the dead and the living. During the Kushan Invasion, the invaders, specifically Ganishka, were granted the "honor" of being the fuel that bestowed him the means to merge the Astral World with the Material World in order to grant mankind's wish of a harsh utopia, Falconia. Griffith's actions have undeniably benefited mankind as a whole, but what makes him so twisted and villainous is how he accomplishes his goal, by piling mountain of corpses wherever he goes. So many people have died and this is what makes Griffith so dangerous. He doesn't know when to stop because he is blinded by the dangers his ambition poses to others, including himself.

On the matter with raping Casca and forcing Guts to watch is "justified" in Griffith's mind. Casca and Guts "betrayed" him. In reality, it isn't true since it was done out of 100% pure spite, but this is how Griffith perceives the situation. This is probably the main reason Griffith lost interest in harming Guts and Casca after ch. 180. They're not a threat to his plans and leaving them alive as they are in their current states is a more fitting punishment than simply killing them, hence the "Nyah! Nyah!" stunt Griffith pulled when he left Guts behind in the snow, a callback to what Guts did Griffith several years prior. His development combined with wanting to get his comeuppance is what makes him a great villain.
This point isn't a reply to yours. Just my personal thoughts: Griffith is a character that is defined by his ambition. He is an inveterate dreamer and his vehement desire was always to aim towards the lofty apex of the castle spires. This was shown through his pure pursuit of ideals to grasp his dream. And let's be honest with ourselves, a man is nothing without his dreams. We need dreams, ideals and pursuits to complete our existence. Give it purpose. To assume that dreams aren't selfish is a self-serving mentality. It isn't real. When one person acquires a dream somewhere, he has crushed the dream of many to acquire the same thing. That is how it is; one dream is achieved by ending many. That is the truth of the matter.

We have seen him so emotionally invested in his ideals that he intentionally distanced himself from his comrades after witnessing the untimely demise of a child amongst his troops; a mere boy. It was more of a moment of self-pity he projected onto the child when he stated that, "he must have had a dream as well." He realized it then that that could be him in his place; death ending his dream; ending everything for him. Which is why he chooses to solicit and gains the funds to climb out of that rut of consistent losses of men; setbacks thwarting his dream. It was a decision to gain heights and spread his wings wide; the same reference when he fell so far down after his night with the naive princess.

Griffith was the man who was meant to achieve his dream by standing over the bodies of his comrades. It was always meant to be this way, as each victory was forged in the blood of his fallen comrades. He gained rank through deaths. He was a leader. He was always meant to lead, not chase. Which is why we find the Band of the Hawk willingly claiming to sacrifice theirs so that Griffith can literally soar high like the hawk he was always meant to be. Once that dream, that ego, that passion, that control melded together firmly over the years, it made Griffith the man he was; an admirer of dreams; a pursuer of his dream of a castle. It defined him till the moment he was not reunited with the Behelit. He was always extraordinary like the unique Behelit he was meant to find. An overman amongst men. His transcendence to Femto was so fitting to fully realize these facets of him. His humanity held him back.

He considered Guts a friend. However, the intentional distancing and the ideals molded him into a man who considered people around him more of helping hands, pieces on the chessboard with him being the finest one; a king. Once he is humiliated by Guts, it dawns on him that he cannot control the tides of fates as perfectly as he had hoped. That loss of control and the idea that he will not be able to maintain hold over all his troops, sends him cruelly spiraling down, where he makes one terrible mistake after another. The quick decision to remedy his bruised ego through a hasty sexual encounter costs him so much more than he bargained for.

It would be difficult to plumb the depths of his despair when he was completely deconstructed as a man after the inhuman torture. To state that he was left as a shell of his former self is putting it so lightly. The man was emasculated, humiliated and dethroned out of the safe haven of his dream castle. He was no longer the beautiful, clever-minded general all admired ... but a man to be pitied. I don't think there could have been any greater cruelty. Once given a choice to end his life or a life of a pitiful invalid ... or grasp the chance to become a god, he chose what everyone would; a chance to live the dream. I will never belittle Griffith to choose what he did; it came so naturally to him. It was a human moment to end his life and accept the God's Hands proposal to transcend reality. Even if you remove the factors leading him up to that moment, it would be impossible to deny such an opportunity; a chance to become a god! Be the king of causality and fates. It's an impossible dream, an awesome power! The temptation to acquire it will triumph over everything.

The points that I tend to deviate from are those where people assume Femto to be evil. Are GodHands really evil? There is no such thing as an absolute evil. Evil is fueled by perspective. Griffith has transcended perspectives. He is no longer a human. He is no longer bound by the factors of "manufactured" morality. Yes, morality is always manufactured. It is not something absolute; it's always destined to reach an obsolete status one way or another, given its changing nature with the shifting winds of societal axioms. Can we really call God in the three well-known orthodox religions as evil when he decimated civilizations, and still does if one counts the idea of "fate" in religion?

I will consider Femto as no different. He leaves mountains of corpses and decides fates. To him that Utopia is well-earned on the pile of corpses. Just as Heaven is a well-earned paradise over the dreary pits of hell that is a brimful of the absolutes of human despairs. The promised lands are always built on corpses and crushing dreams, which makes Griffith so raw and realistic even as a lesser god. As Femto, Griffith transcended humanity, he transcended evil, he transcended good ... he became an axiom of hope and despair himself; a true god! He became the very ideal he chased after. Femto is nothing more than a personification of his own ideologies, only far more exalted, more detached and more removed from reality. He's unreal and real at the same time.

I would consider Femto as a complete reconstruction of Griffith. Not just physically (interestingly, he has gone through two rebirths since his death as Griffith; Femto and the White Hawk God who created Falconia), but spiritually and thematically as well. At his core, Femto is an incorporeal being. He sees things in the shades of fates and causality. He isn't a part of them like humanity or as Griffith was. He's beyond that. To judge him on the merits of humanity makes little sense as he doesn't even lie on the shallow stratum of reality, but the deep stratum. His rebirth simply gives him a make-belief flesh to reside amongst humans and make his dream a reality within the bounds of the laws of the corporeal stratum. That doesn't make him any less of a god. He's simply a god with a fleshy garb. Thus, every single act from Griffith is justifiable one way or another, and that is what makes him highly complex.

I disagree with the rape argument people have as well. Why would Femto desire to spite Guts and Caska? I found that scene to be utterly pointless and a stuff of base titillation. If I was supposed to loathe Griffith in any manner, then I can assure people that it never crossed my mind. As to associate notions of morality with gods and hell is such an insufferably absurd and terribly narrow-minded view to begin with that throws any semblance of context away altogether.

The scene and the sheer stupidity of Casca surviving purely on grounds of the perversions of demons were absolutely laughable ... and she has been baselessly comical since then. She was never a decent character to begin with. It was not until his rebirth and the facts surrounding it resurfaced that I finally understood that he only wanted to corrupt the child to use it as a vessel, albeit it is another grand Deux Ex Machina in Guts' favour; one of the many this character so shamelessly keels over on. There is nothing more to it than that. To give it more meaning would mean that the GodHands have corporeal inclinations; traits of the flesh, and that would go everything against what we have seen.

I have also never understood why Griffith has not killed in a manner fitting to his character. The Deus Ex Machina pile up (and it's one after another) since the troll arc to shield Guts' highly ludicrous character have been a stuff of horrid writings. Him disregarding their existence has a lot more to do with poor writing than any deep thematic value. I really hope this plot recovers soon, as beyond Griffith, there isn't much salvageable material there and Guts' quest for vengeance is as nonsensical as Casca's memory loss that has lasted over a decade worth of chapters ...
 
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Franckie

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Shahdan, very nice post. Just a couple of comments I'd like to make on it.

I disagree with the rape argument people have as well. Why would Femto desire to spite Guts and Caska? I found that scene to be utterly pointless and a stuff of base titillation. If I was supposed to loathe Griffith in any manner, then I can assure people that it never crossed my mind. As to associate notions of morality with gods and hell is such an insufferably absurd and terribly narrow-minded view to begin with that throws any semblance of context away altogether.
I think a case can be made that for all of Griffith's godlike power, his insecurities never really left, as showcased with the rape incident and all the tributes to Griffith when he revived Falconia. While raping Casca, Griffith spent the entire scene staring intensely at Guts. Griffith has always been possessive of Guts, and to a lesser extent, Casca. The whole point of the affair was to demonstrate Griffith's newfound power and dominance by hurting Guts and Casca in the best manner he knew how.

We're also supposed to hate Griffith, and this scene paints him as a very unsavory target. Sentencing the Hawks to their deaths is one thing, and something the audience can understand. What isn't is Griffith raping Casca and forcing Guts to watch it.

The scene and the sheer stupidity of Casca surviving purely on grounds of the perversions of demons were absolutely laughable ... and she has been baselessly comical since then. She was never a decent character to begin with. It was not until his rebirth and the facts surrounding it resurfaced that I finally understood that he only wanted to corrupt the child to use it as a vessel, albeit it is another grand Deux Ex Machina in Guts' favour; one of the many this character so shamelessly keels over on. There is nothing more to it than that. To give it more meaning would mean that the GodHands have corporeal inclinations; traits of the flesh, and that would go everything against what we have seen.

I have also never understood why Griffith has not killed in a manner fitting to his character. The Deus Ex Machina pile up (and it's one after another) since the troll arc to shield Guts' highly ludicrous character have been a stuff of horrid writings. Him disregarding their existence has a lot more to do with poor writing than any deep thematic value. I really hope this plot recovers soon, as beyond Griffith, there isn't much salvageable material there and Guts' quest for vengeance is as nonsensical as Casca's memory loss that has lasted over a decade worth of chapters ...
There's no such thing as "coincidence" in the manga. It's strongly implied that Guts and company are under a form of casualty that runs in opposition to the Godhand and the Idea of Evil. We know for a fact that not just humans, but creatures like elves (e.g. Puck) fall under "fate". Consider too whether Guts and Casca being alive after the Eclipse was a matter of "luck" or not. Is it sheer coincidence that the Skull Knight shows up right before Casca and Guts die? Is it sheer coincidence that Rickert just happened to have elf dust that saved his companions' lives? Then there are other matters like Guts meeting Farnese, daughter of the most influential family on the continent, right when he was at the breaking point with Casca. Not to mention meeting two people (Flora and Schierke) who knew how to limit the power of the Brand soon afterward. So on and so forth. In other words, there is a slow, but growing, backlash to the machinations of Griffith and the beings who back him.

I'm not entirely convinced yet that Griffith has disregarded Guts and company. We don't know where the Moon Child goes when the full moon ceases, for example. Is it some kind of avatar for Griffith? We have to consider too the possibility that the Godhand allowed Guts and company to reach Elfheim in order attack it. The island is protected by powerful magic, and if the Godhand have been discretely observing the group they'll know how to slip past the barrier.

But yes, I do agree that the writing has been "weak", if only in the sense that matters like Casca's insanity being dragged out for far too long. What hasn't helped too is the constant hiatuses, like the current one we're forced to endure until Spring 2017.
 
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Shahdan, very nice post. Just a couple of comments I'd like to make on it.
I think a case can be made that for all of Griffith's godlike power, his insecurities never really left, as showcased with the rape incident and all the tributes to Griffith when he revived Falconia. While raping Casca, Griffith spent the entire scene staring intensely at Guts. Griffith has always been possessive of Guts, and to a lesser extent, Casca. The whole point of the affair was to demonstrate Griffith's newfound power and dominance by hurting Guts and Casca in the best manner he knew how.

We're also supposed to hate Griffith, and this scene paints him as a very unsavory target. Sentencing the Hawks to their deaths is one thing, and something the audience can understand. What isn't is Griffith raping Casca and forcing Guts to watch it.
Interesting comments and a good response. All right, coming to your first one, I believe I did cover this in my post. This is a slippery slope. However, I have never viewed any material under the lens of morality; I want to make this clear here. It dampens the impact of the material. In fact, it renders the whole thing a stuff of needless projection and throws interpretations out of the window for an easy argument that simply lambasts the whole thing. The schism in the argument is caused by "emotions" coming from Femto towards Guts and Casca. And here is where I do not agree: where is the proof that Femto was driven by emotions (human emotions)? It's based on a prior life as Griffith was literally deconstructed. He was vapourised and born anew. Why would he still cling on to something when it never defined him?

Why apply human morality to hell and Godhands? Applying human morality to a domain built on the what humanity considers hell ... doesn't seem appropriate to me at all. Rape is such a trivial act in hell. The domain makes it so absurdly trivial all on its own. We are speaking of eternal, unthinkable tortures there from which there is no repose. The souls are shown to even lose their shape. Thus, the torment extends to that which isn't even corporeal nor real. People analyze this rape outside the background and the context; the background is hell and the context is hell and Gods. Where does human morality lie in this? Nowhere.

Did he force him to watch? Guts was already there. He was not dragged there to be an audience. He was screaming and running all over the place. The demons held him down. That is all. Femto was shown looking at Casca and Griffth. He appeared to be mechanically performing the act. The reason why I find it absurd is the choice of the demons to let loose their perversions on Casca and Casca alone. Why? One can bring out the causality card (I will get to this later), but no picture has emerged from this scene. None at all other than Griffith's rebirth through the corrupted child. It renders the idea of Femto performing the act to get back at them completely obsolete. In fact, when Griffith meets Guts, there he says that he wanted to see if he "felt anything," and when he didn't, he added that, "I am free." If he didn't feel anything now, then why then? It creates a literary paradox, for which (mind you), the material provides no context. That is terrible penning if this argument of Griffith feeling something is taken into consideration. Give this a thought.

Personally, I was absolutely horrified by Wyald's act of wanton violence. The sheer brutality of his sexual violence surely left an impact. Because, for one, apostles reside in the human domain (Shallow domain, to be precise) and are corporeal beings that tend to revert back to their human selves once they perish. I don't know why, to this day, I feel nary a thing for Casca.

There's no such thing as "coincidence" in the manga. It's strongly implied that Guts and company are under a form of casualty that runs in opposition to the Godhand and the Idea of Evil. We know for a fact that not just humans, but creatures like elves (e.g. Puck) fall under "fate". Consider too whether Guts and Casca being alive after the Eclipse was a matter of "luck" or not. Is it sheer coincidence that the Skull Knight shows up right before Casca and Guts die? Is it sheer coincidence that Rickert just happened to have elf dust that saved his companions' lives? Then there are other matters like Guts meeting Farnese, daughter of the most influential family on the continent, right when he was at the breaking point with Casca. Not to mention meeting two people (Flora and Schierke) who knew how to limit the power of the Brand soon afterward. So on and so forth. In other words, there is a slow, but growing, backlash to the machinations of Griffith and the beings who back him.

I'm not entirely convinced yet that Griffith has disregarded Guts and company. We don't know where the Moon Child goes when the full moon ceases, for example. Is it some kind of avatar for Griffith? We have to consider too the possibility that the Godhand allowed Guts and company to reach Elfheim in order attack it. The island is protected by powerful magic, and if the Godhand have been discretely observing the group they'll know how to slip past the barrier.

But yes, I do agree that the writing has been "weak", if only in the sense that matters like Casca's insanity being dragged out for far too long. What hasn't helped too is the constant hiatuses, like the current one we're forced to endure until Spring 2017.
That was not my argument. I talked about Deus Ex Machina (DEM) which works in absurds ways for Guts. It literally means "god from a machine." I will not go into its history, however, the devices appearing out of thin air for Guts do fit the bit of Greek plays' use of mechanical contrivance to solve PLOT issues created by plot's causality at a simple stroke. It is about unexpected or improbable contrivances used by Miura to resolve complications. It has nothing to do with "things happen for a reason."

This is a frame narrative (almost all narratives these days are). Hence, it uses a story within a story format. A story cannot be turned into a plot without causality. Similarly, Guts story within the plot is useless without a "proper" cause and effect chain, which is basically causality in a nutshell. Those cause and effects are created through agents and actors in a smooth manner, where some probable cause is given without slipping down the DEM route; the easy way out for most post-modern authors.

This was mostly a nonserious jab at Guts' progress, but, I do believe it should apply (it is a post from other thread):

It's because he lacks depth. His character is very simplistic and straight forward. He doesn't shoulder any plot-changing or meaningful metaphors within the plot itself. That would be Griffith. You take Griffith out of the plot and there is no plot. That is how weak a character Guts is as the entire slew of causalities are created, crafted and set to revolve around Griffith and Griffith only. It's also interesting that Griffith now influences the causalities within the manga as well as this is what GodHands do. An almost fourth wall kind of affair.

Another factor that is really offputting is the consistent rise in Deus Ex Machina for this character. It has left Naruto as a character in the dust in this regard. I am not even trying to be funny here. The very first is the Behelit itself. Guts doesn't seem to have lost it (no matter how comical the situation) and the author has offered no reasoning as to why a key that is already used once can be used again in any manner. It makes little sense given the powers it provides. Skull-King seems to have a trove of it and it makes the whole thing even more laughable. Femto doesn't seem to be too concerned with SK's comical collection so far as well (the point till where I have read anyway; albeit, I am aware of Falconia's plotline and that makes it even more absurd).

Then we have the troll arc. The armor just appeared out of nowhere in just the nick of time to aid Guts. But wait, it was wielded by SK as well. It allows him to harness an awesome power and fight an apostle whose physical strength was far more enhanced than ordinary ones. The reasoning for the armor is so flimsy that I cannot stress it enough as to how much the writing faltered there; it was badly crafted comedy on pages. The armor even fixes his bones during the fight. His strength got so magically enhanced that the apostle was forced to assume his true form and still he was struggling. He, apparently, has an inner demon as well. And the icing on the cake is that he has to lie outside the tale (when he already does lie in the shallow stratum) to beat Griffith. I do not think this can get any worse than this. Slan has magically shown an interest in him as well. Why? Because she wants him to plunge his "big, thick sword into her." Or so we are told, because it's so "es-pha-shal!"

Schierke is this ... bottomless bag of solutions. She has the answer to everything. She also has this puberty lust thing going on for Guts and it's just plain disturbing. Honestly, everything about this one-dimensional character is off-putting. Whenever a problem appears, she defeats it nearly always. She's his go-to armor; an impenetrable one. Griffith just doesn't magically decide to go to her mistress himself to kill her when he can control Time and Space. He just leaves everything to his weaker subordinates, when they were hardly the strongest apostles at that time. No valid reasons are given for this stupidity, when the man is a god.

Their child he chose to merge with just maintained his consciousness. Why? No reason, but just another causality defying nonsensical Deux Ex Machina for Guts to exploit later on, as a god was not able to extinguish a consciousness of a mere child that only got corrupted with a bit of his sperm ... or err something. I am sure I will find others if I think hard enough, but this is terrible enough. It exhibits how flimsy and utterly horrendous a character Guts is.

Every single encounter feels the same; he takes his giant sword out and starts swinging and blood is splattered everywhere. Full stop. You have an idiotic, caricatural motley bunch that stand in a state of stupor (mostly) as he does so and offer "ooohhs and ahhhhs" every single time. And Schierke chants mumbo-jumbo and they are saved, because she is just this impossible juggernaut of magic. There is no stopping the Schierke train. It's like a constant loop of the same kind of nonsensical garbage over and over and over again ... and I have grown weary of it. Guts' inner demon struggles feel like something straight out of the poorly written lyrics of a Tumblr girl with much less talent. It's a comedic affair ... as it is outwardly personified in the worst kind of ways; I mean, a hell hound? Really?

The facial expressions, poses and grunts that accompany it make it seem like he's endeavouring his very best to pass a long overdue stool hibernating in his posterior for a month; it feels like a mundane routine affair. And it's almost the same damn face! The same damned struggles and the same damned tedious show of Bruce-McGruff hyper-masculine rubbish. People actually like this? I am baffled!

The bunch that aids him aren't any less ridiculous. Good Lord, was Miura ever serious with Farneze? She's the pinnacle of human stupidity and bad penning in every single manner, and she will also become a magic user; another powerful addition in Guts' OP belt ...

Honestly, there is just no contest. Guts is everything that is terrible with cooke-cutter representation of characters across various medias and genres and manga in general. There is just barely enough material to even make him bearable ...
It isn't about luck, it's about the "condition" set up by the plot itself. Miura can try and wrap all of this nonsense up with "hey, man ... I mean, I am doing causality, yo!" but it doesn't take away the complete absent elements of "cause." Without the first factor, it leaves the whole thing in quagmire of stupidity. It doesn't give a good impression at all. And, of course, it will end up in over-powering Guts. Why wouldn't it? You do see that it has nothing to do with the "delicate chains of *insert mumbo-jumbo here* causality" that this manga prattled on about, right? But, where is the cause? Which is why I cannot take the addition of these characters seriously. It's simply going down the cliched route of a "loopy hero overcomes ALL odds to bring down a god!" Now, where have I heard that story before?

It's coming out in spring? Oh shit, hahaha ...
 
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pudgiePenguin

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Griffith is probably one of the best antagonists I have ever read about. Especially since he is likeable and relatable about having desires to reach in the very beginning. What's really amazing about the writing is we see bits and pieces of Griffith unraveling showing his true inner self, and we all know it will go south, but we never suspect how sickeningly south it goes until the eclipse. Suddenly and little bits of past actions seem much more devious than we could have ever imagined.
 

fist-of-fury

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i'd say griffith ain't pure evil, in the end he'll probably help guts fight against the other members of god hand.
 

XXGenesis

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Best character ever
 

Griffithpt

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I know a lot of people disagree with this but I'm going to try to explain my reasoning for it regardless.

Griffith is not Femto.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Femto, who goes by Griffith, has nothing to do with Griffith, but I feel that they are ultimately two different characters that share the same appearance and other traits, but ultimately who they are and how they act is different from one another.

Both Griffith and Femto are ambitious and they see their ambition as the ultimate goal, but the biggest difference between the two is in how or what they are willing to do to reach their ambition.

Femto has no qualms about using demons to fulfill his goals, he doesn't care which of his allies lives or dies because he knows he has the power to reach his goals regardless. I don't believe he sees those around him as anything more than puppets and likewise I don't think he inspires admiration like Griffith used to.

Griffith was very partial to his allies, and would go out of his way to aid them when they fell in danger. One trait he shares with Femto is that they're both willing to do unscrupulous things to reach their goals, but while Femto doesn't care about sacrificing some, Griffith's first thought always put him in danger. From dueling Guts, from selling his own body, to risking being murdered and trying to force a relationship with Charlotte, Griffith is willing to put himself in danger to further his goals. Femto is not, Femto would gladly send all his allies to the gulag to take one step forward.

Femto was born from Griffith's broken state of mind and body and he is the personification of Griffith's unchained goals but he is very far from the ambitious, self-sacrificing charismatic leader that Griffith once was.

Griffith was admired because of what he achieved and how he treated his men. Femto is feared.

Lastly there is the famous chapter "The Bridge of Parting" where Rickert slaps 'Griffith' and says that the Band of the Hawk was led by the White Falcon Griffith, not the Falcon of Light, and to me that's the most piece direct evidence of my belief.

That isn't to say they aren't similar, that they don't share the same goals, but Femto is a 'Griffith' devoid of the humanity that made him admirable.

There was always a darkness in Griffith, and we saw that darkness take root in the final parts of the Golden Age arc. Femto is that darkness unchained and unrestrained. Born of Griffith, Femto is, but Griffith he is not.
 
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