Shounen Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto

[ninjabot]

Re: Naruto 644 Discussion / 645 Predictions

^lol sorry wasn't good with names

No prob, Bob.

That was probably oonoki and A's initial tactic with the war, and you're right, that's kage-level strategy. But if he's going to save only naruto and kill everyone else, who's left? the 5 kages, sasuke, juugo, naruto, suigetsu, orochimaru, and those people who were kept in bunkers away from all this fight. If they were successful in this war with just them and it's sasuke vs naruto in the end and naruto gets killed, the remaining people who were in the fight won't probably agree with sasuke being hokage. Plus, the mere fact that he wants to kill naruto already contradicts his goal of becoming hokage.

Well, again, there's no "Sasuke wants to kill Naruto" anywhere anymore. Sasuke wants to win the war, and Sasuke wants to become Hokage.

It's more accurate to say that Sasuke will kill Naruto if he has to. Not that that is an actual goal he's thriving for. Notice he doesn't fly off the handle the way he did when people mentioned Itachi's name, back when he was dead set on killing him? If there's one thing Sasuke is, it's emotional. And he has had no surge of emotions throughout this battle yet other than surprise, or the sense of nostalgia he got while fighting at Naruto's side.

to me it sounds more like Naruto is his way for people to acknowledge him so he can be nominated as Hokage, much like how Hashirama wanted Madara to be hokage but failed to show the people of Konoha that he's worth the spot

Naruto's way is the better way when it comes to garnering votes from village members. It's the Sarutobi way. Sasuke's way is the Tobirama and Danzou way. Results at any cost. Yes, Naruto's way is the better way, I agree. I'm just bringing to light that Sasuke's way, morally corrupt or not, is still Kage logic. Just reminding folk that there's more to running a village than people liking you. There's also "making good with what tools you have". And Sasuke simply didn't have to tools to save every ninja in the village at that point.

Technically, Naruto didn't either... but that's what Minato was for. That's neither here nor there though.

---------- Post added at 10:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 AM ----------

Actually, no, Naruto admited during the Kage Summit Arc that Sasuke was above him and that was before the mofo got his EMS

Was just about to post this, thanks for the save, lol.

I still want you to prove these instances where Sasuke has consistently put Naruto in his place.

No you don't, or you wouldn't have corrected yourself before I could. You wanted to avoid seeing manga scans of Naruto not comprehending the simplest of ninjutsu terms, or seeing that his foe is immune to ninjutsu and then going ahead and using ninjutsu "just because", or being incapable of seeing the bigger picture due to his need to be right. You knew what was coming, and that's why you pulled damage control and edited your post.

To save me the trouble of doing it for you.

Let it go while you can.

 

[Roman]

Re: Well...

Actually, no, Naruto admited during the Kage Summit Arc that Sasuke was above him and that was before the mofo got his EMS.

Case in point, Naruto was barely stronger than Jiraya (kage level) when he defeated Pain with an ungodly amount of aid and plokai no jutsu.

Sasuke could face between 2 to 3 kages by the time he completed his MS Susanoo and probably reached something near 5 kages when he gained his EMS. He is more os less a knock down version of Madara.

Naruto became hax when he befriended Kurama, once he did that he pretty much spammed kage level bushins across the entire battlefield and turned the tables on Tobi with a full bijuu mode.

Kurama put Naruto on the same league as Hashirama and Madara whereas Sasuke is on Pain's level at best so there is a huge gap between Sasuke and Naruto now.

The majority of what you wrote is your own speculated opinion, therefore, inadmissible as a fact. There is also a flaw in the logic in which Naruto perfected the Sage arts whereas Jiraiya didn't and yet he's supposed to be stronger than Naruto. Just no.

Naruto became what Kishimoto wanted him to become, just like any other character. His own character is the only one who could befriend Kuramna, not to mention him having a connection to Uzumaki and Senju clans which specifically allow him to wield Kurama the way he does. Calling it a hax is pretty stupid since as of this war, almost every damn thing could be called a "hax".

Ranking the power of Naruto and Sasuke is also pretty much useless and is based on one's own approach towards a character.

 

[jaymizzo]

Re: Well...

Kurama put Naruto on the same league as Hashirama and Madara whereas Sasuke is on Pain's level at best so there is a huge gap between Sasuke and Naruto now.

Lets not exeggerate. Naruto is as far below Hashirama as Sasuke is with Madara. Simply having Chakra comparable or the same amount of Volume is not enough to put them on such a level. Look at the things Hashirama and Madara can do for example, there is nothing Naruto and Sasuke have done in the entirity of the Manga that puts them beside these two. Hell i doubt Kishi would be able to replicate what Hashirama and Madara can actually do in Naruto and Sasuke.

And dont get me started on Pein, if it is not for PIS, Pein/Nagato would beat the snot out of these two. They have quite a long way to go.

---------- Post added at 04:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:39 AM ----------

No you don't, or you wouldn't have corrected yourself before I could. You wanted to avoid seeing manga scans of Naruto not comprehending the simplest of ninjutsu terms, or seeing that his foe is immune to ninjutsu and then going ahead and using ninjutsu "just because", or being incapable of seeing the bigger picture due to his need to be right. You knew what was coming, and that's why you pulled damage control and edited your post.

To save me the trouble of doing it for you.

Let it go while you can.

If youve read any of my posts at all in Naruto vs Sasuke threads you would know that i have never claimed Naruto to be smarter or better skilled than Sasuke. Me putting that in in my post is to avoid you proving things that i already know.

You said in the entirity of the Manga, Sasuke has put Naruto in his place. I am asking for those instances. xXan commented on the current events where the two are together. I have not read his post but i assume he did not say that Naruto is going to consistently out match Sasuke.

So, you asked for me to ask you to prove it, i simply did and removed certain parameters for you to exploit. Being proven wrong is not the end of the world, I just want you to stay true to your request.

Against Nagato, that has been discussed a lot, people accepted that it was a dumb move by Naruto, either from excitement or a momentary loss of memory, he realized his mistake as soon as he did it. Its not stupidity rather forgetfulness. That has nothing to do with Sasuke since Sasuke has not fought Nagato.

And you do realize that these guys have been throwing Ninjutsu at Obito even though they all know that he has the Rinnengan right?

 

[Schabrak]

Re: Naruto 644 Discussion / 645 Predictions

Kishimoto, breaking the forth wall for stupid explanations, one chapter at a time. :P So with Naruto being okay with his fathers doings, it's time for Minato to say good bye next week?

Case in point, Naruto was barely stronger than Jiraya (kage level) when he defeated Pain with an ungodly amount of aid and plokai no jutsu.

Sasuke could face between 2 to 3 kages by the time he completed his MS Susanoo and probably reached something near 5 kages when he gained his EMS. He is more os less a knock down version of Madara.

Not ten or twenty or even hundred Hokages at once? Hyperbole and talking down characters at it's finest. Nishishishi Sasuke had no deus ex plot no jutsus at all! Naruto buffing the whole shinobi alliance, ~50k+ people is no feat at all! It wasn't him molding the chakra perfectly for each and every single individual.

 

[marshall313]

Re: Naruto 644 Discussion / 645 Predictions

Prove it

P.S. When they are thinking of the same thing and or fighting the same opponent. No doubt Sasuke is more skilled than Naruto as a Shinobi and more intelligent, but he has not "consistenly" put Naruto in his place for 644 Chapters. You are getting very close to Marshalls level.

What the hell did you mean about Marshall's level?

 

[ninjabot]

Re: Naruto 644 Discussion / 645 Predictions

The majority of what you wrote is your own speculated opinion, therefore, inadmissible as a fact.

Except the first point he made.

http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/490/14

Naruto could sense that it was gonna take more than Sage Mode to get the job done against Sasuke. And even then he still expects both of them to die. That's not inadmissible unless we're ignoring things stated by the character now.

In which case Raikage's claims about Minato can be completely ignored too, right?

EDIT: More damning proof http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/488/12

 

[Roman]

Re: Naruto 644 Discussion / 645 Predictions

Except the first point he made.

http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/490/14

Naruto could sense that it was gonna take more than Sage Mode to get the job done against Sasuke. And even then he still expects both of them to die. That's not inadmissible unless we're ignoring things stated by the character now.

In which case Raikage's claims about Minato can be completely ignored too, right?

Yes, that's why I wrote majority. But the levels of their power then and now aren't the same and speculating about who's stronger will get us nowhere. But I guess, if Naruto proves to be stronger than Sasuke, then he'll always be referred to as being saved by Kurama. Which is why I want him to go against him with just SM.

---------- Post added at 12:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:57 PM ----------

Sasuke will be not as important as Naruto in the end though.He is just Naruto's rival in the end.This is a shonen and the main character is Naruto so really,it's just common sense not matter some fans's excuses. But of course in no way this means that Sasuke is not relevant (it's silly to think that),it's just that compared to Naruto's importance in the manga,Sasuke's comes second and really there is nothing wrong with that.

Of course, I understand the response because it's objective, but remember, a lot of people aren't, and that's the catch.

 

[ninjabot]

Re: Naruto 644 Discussion / 645 Predictions

Yes, that's why I wrote majority. But the levels of their power then and now aren't the same and speculating about who's stronger will get us nowhere.

Good. I'm up to my knees in Naruto wank that I have to address. Didn't wanna have to add more to my plate.

But I guess, if Naruto proves to be stronger than Sasuke, then he'll always be referred to as being saved by Kurama.

Someone FINALLY gets it.

Which is why I want him to go against him with just SM.

As someone that has a healthy dislike for Naruto, I would've preferred if he lost Kurama during the war, resulting in a much stronger Juubi... only for Naruto to get a stronger Sage Mode, powerful enough to compete with the Juubi. Because then he really WOULD be the next Sage of Six Paths, because as far as we know he wasn't relying on outside help while fighting the Juubi. Just his own power, and skill as a Sage. And maybe a hax kekkei genkai, but that's okay since it would've been a power that comes directly from him, and not an outside source...

...which has always been the argument, hasn't? "If the Kyuubi isn't Naruto's power, then the Sharingan isn't Sasuke's! Who cares if he was born with it without outside aid!"

---------- Post added at 11:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:05 AM ----------

Sasuke will be not as important as Naruto in the end though.He is just Naruto's rival in the end.This is a shonen and the main character is Naruto so really,it's just common sense not matter some fans's excuses. But of course in no way this means that Sasuke is not relevant (it's silly to think that),it's just that compared to Naruto's importance in the manga,Sasuke's comes second and really there is nothing wrong with that.

Agreed. Though most of the argument going on right now isn't about Sasuke's importance. It's about his worth. Importance relates to plot necessity. Worth relates to actual potential IN the manga.

 

[Schabrak]

Re: Naruto 644 Discussion / 645 Predictions

EDIT: More damning proof http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/488/12

No matter what Naruto said, we the readers know he could have killed Sasuke there if it hadn't been for his restraint and that stupid women named Sakura. Naruto wants to die, if he has to fight and kill Sasuke, that's the point he is making. He can't live his live knowing that he killed his best friend, it's not as much about strength as it's about his affection to that black haired pretty boy. Why are you still talking like the jinchuuriki using the bijuus is like a cheat and not like it's Naruto's doing taming and caring for that monster within himself allowing him to use those powers?

Someone FINALLY gets it.

Someone get's it that you would always blame/award Kurama and not Naruto for a win?

 

[jaymizzo]

Re: Naruto 644 Discussion / 645 Predictions

EDIT: More damning proof http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/488/12

http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/487/8

All the panels before that indicate that Naruto understood that he and Sasuke would not be able to outmatch each other on the level they were at, they would both die. Sasuke accepted Narutos challenge and even went on to take Itachis eyes so he could crush Naruto.

The statement Naruto made to the Rookies is contradicting the earlier chapter and even what he says after.

 

[Roman]

Re: Naruto 644 Discussion / 645 Predictions

As someone that has a healthy dislike for Naruto, I would've preferred if he lost Kurama during the war, resulting in a much stronger Juubi... only for Naruto to get a stronger Sage Mode, powerful enough to compete with the Juubi. Because then he really WOULD be the next Sage of Six Paths, because as far as we know he wasn't relying on outside help while fighting the Juubi. Just his own power, and skill as a Sage. And maybe a hax kekkei genkai, but that's okay since it would've been a power that comes directly from him, and not an outside source...

...which has always been the argument, hasn't? "If the Kyuubi isn't Naruto's power, then the Sharingan isn't Sasuke's! Who cares if he was born with it without outside aid!"

I'd also prefer that, although since Naruto perfected the SM, Kurama's power is the only thing that can bring it to another level.

That was always the argument since people have different views on the matter. If we look at the angle from which a character was born with a certain ability, then the argument stands. In other words, if Sasuke was born with the ability to awaken and use the Sharingan, Naruto was born with the ability to wield and use Kurama as a part of his power. You'll probably disagree with the notion but it is another way to look at it whether you like it or not.

 

[jaymizzo]

Re: Naruto 644 Discussion / 645 Predictions

Good. I'm up to my knees in Naruto wank that I have to address. Didn't wanna have to add more to my plate.

Ahh, the days when Amaterasu was a one shot for everything. Its annoying when fans get overexcited is it not?

As someone that has a healthy dislike for Naruto, I would've preferred if he lost Kurama during the war, resulting in a much stronger Juubi...

A lot of Naruto fans have wished for this for a very long time. People understand that whatever Naruto does now, so long as the kyuubi is involved, it will be attributed to him helping Naruto.

And maybe a hax kekkei genkai, but that's okay since it would've been a power that comes directly from him, and not an outside source...

Im of the believe that the Kyuubi is still Narutos power. The thing has been inside him long enough to the point where both theyre chakras were mixing.

Turning the kyuubi and taking its power makes it his. But like i said, i have always wanted Naruto to lose the Kyuubi.

On the Sharingan vs Kyuubi thing, taking away ones power is only fair if you take anothers. Naruto is heavily reliant on the Kyuubi right now as is Sasuke with his Sharingan.

 

[ninjabot]

Re: Naruto 644 Discussion / 645 Predictions

No matter what Naruto said, we the readers know he could have killed Sasuke there if it hadn't been for his restraint and that stupid women named Sakura. Naruto wants to die, if he has to fight and kill Sasuke, that's the point he is making. He can't live his live knowing that he killed his best friend, it's not as much about strength as it's about his affection to that black haired pretty boy.

No, he wasn't referring to fighting him then and there. He was referring to when they actually do fight to the death (proven by the fact that he mentions what he saw in his mind in that second scan I posted).

Naruto wasn't gonna face a blind, exhausted, and pain wracked version of Sasuke because he still requires his acceptance. His acknowledgement. He said that the next time they fight, they'd both die. That was him acknowledging that at that point, he didn't have what it takes to beat an MS Sasuke without dying in the process. Not with Sage Mode. It just wasn't enough.

By his own admittance.

Twice.

I will concede though that Kishimoto has a habit of making ninja spout dumb rhetoric for no reason other than to make someone seem stronger than they are. Like Itachi claiming that he and Kisame couldn't take Jiraiya, or that they'd both die in the process. We all know THAT shit was a lie.

 

[1337 haxor]

Well...

The majority of what you wrote is your own speculated opinion, therefore, inadmissible as a fact. There is also a flaw in the logic in which Naruto perfected the Sage arts whereas Jiraiya didn't and yet he's supposed to be stronger than Naruto. Just no.

Naruto became what Kishimoto wanted him to become, just like any other character. His own character is the only one who could befriend Kuramna, not to mention him having a connection to Uzumaki and Senju clans which specifically allow him to wield Kurama the way he does. Calling it a hax is pretty stupid since as of this war, almost every damn thing could be called a "hax".

Ranking the power of Naruto and Sasuke is also pretty much useless and is based on one's own approach towards a character.

Actually, you didn't pay attention to what I wrote at all.

I said that Naruto was stronger than Jiraya, albeit barely. Perfect Sage Mode sure is stronger than what Jiraya had but the latter had enormous experience and a myriad of techniques which made up for his incomplete form.

The point is that while Naruto had surpassed Jiraya, who was a kage level shinobi, he was still leagues below Pain even with the Perfect Sage Mode.

At that point in the manga, Tobi admitted he expected Sasuke to surpass Nagato and during the Kage Summit Arc, when Tobi tried to put Sasuke to the test, the latter faced both A and Gaara (two kage level opponents) before even completing his MS Susanoo.

When Sasuke completed his MS Susanoo, he was nearly out of chakra but Naruto stated that if he and Sasuke fought right there Naruto would not be able to defeat him despite being fresh and with Sage Mode.

If you take a look at his fight with Kabuto, you will realize that Sage Mode could not match even an incomplete Susanoo as it took Kabuto several body modification to properly face the Uchiha whom were both holding back not to kill him.

Give or take, Sasuke's power level as of now could be estimated to be on the same level as Nagato and so far Naruto only truly surpassed Nagato when he acquired the Bijuu Mode.

If we where to make a power scale based on tiers of power from kage level (Kl):

1Kl- Jiraya, Tsunade, Orochimaru and the other current kage.

2Kl- Sage Mode Naruto, Sage Mode Kabuto and Hiruzen.

3Kl- MS Sasuke, V1 Kurama Naruto, Itachi, Tobirama, 3rd Raikage, Minato and MS Obito.

4Kl- EMS Sasuke, EMS Madara, Edo Minato and Pain.

5Kl- V2 Kurama Naruto, Sage Mode Hashirama Senju, Edo Madara and Rinnegan Obito.

10Kl- Juubito

It's a reasonable power scale and it helps explain that Sasuke is on a league below Naruto until he awakens at least a Rinnegan to match Kurama's hax.

Also, don't try to say Kurama is not hax, only half of it's chakra can match other 5 tailed beasts so it's obvious he is broken even by jinchuuriki standards.

 

[Roman]

Re: Well...

Also, don't try to say Kurama is not hax, only half of it's chakra can match other 5 tailed beasts so it's obvious he is broken even by jinchuuriki standards.

I paid attention, which is why I wrote the majority of it is speculation on your part. But EMS isn't a hax, right? Being objective is the key.

 

[Schabrak]

Re: Naruto 644 Discussion / 645 Predictions

No, he wasn't referring to fighting him then and there. He was referring to when they actually do fight to the death (proven by the fact that he mentions what he saw in his mind in that second scan I posted).

Naruto wasn't gonna face a blind, exhausted, and pain wracked version of Sasuke because he still requires his acceptance. His acknowledgement. He said that the next time they fight, they'd both die. That was him acknowledging that at that point, he didn't have what it takes to beat an MS Sasuke without dying in the process. Not with Sage Mode. It just wasn't enough.

How does it change anything about Naruto lying about the situation after Sasuke fought all the Kage. It is a lie that Naruto wouldn't have beat Sasuke in the situation Neji describes. And if they both had been at a recovered state:

I can't defeat Sasuke at his current level...

Says nothing about Sasuke being capable of defeating Naruto, nothing. No, worse on the next page Naruto himself confirms those two to be equals dying in a fight, no one being overall better than the other.

If we fight again.. we're both gonna die.

 

[ninjabot]

Re: Naruto 644 Discussion / 645 Predictions

Im of the believe that the Kyuubi is still Narutos power.

Trust me. I know.

The thing has been inside him long enough to the point where both theyre chakras were mixing.

If I'm born next to a gun, and my dad grafts that gun to my body... and I use said gun so much that that gun becomes like an actual extension of myself, that gun doesn't automatically become my strength. It's still a tool that was given to me by someone else who chose to make me a powerful freak regardless of what I wanted. I just happen to be attached to it is all. Reaping all the benefits that come with it regardless of how much effort I put in to actually get it.

Which was being born. That was all I did. Be born.

On the Sharingan vs Kyuubi thing, taking away ones power is only fair if you take anothers. Naruto is heavily reliant on the Kyuubi right now as is Sasuke with his Sharingan.

If I'm born with better eyes than you, that's luck of the draw. Good genes. Power that comes from me, used by me. If I'm born with no such power, and then turned into a super powered beast then that's not luck of the draw. That's someone else deciding I should be stronger than I actually am, and then taking steps to make it happen. In that instance, I owe my feats to the man who gave me that power, or at least to the tool inside of me that's granting me that power. Sasuke's CS? That's Orochimaru's doing. Feats performed in CS, those can't be attributed to Sasuke's own level. But anything he does with a Sharingan? Anything at all? That's all him. EMS or not.

*waits for syx to try to imply otherwise*

 

[1337 haxor]

Well...

I paid attention, which is why I wrote the majority of it is speculation on your part. But EMS isn't a hax, right? Being objective is the key.

There is a set standard for the EMS, Sasuke is no more powerful than Madara for wielding it.

Naruto, on the other hand, received only half of Kurama's chakra and grossly outmatched other tailed beasts.

This is where haxing lays in, is when a power goes beyond the boundaries normally set for the story with no explanation whatsoever.

Kurama is abnormally strong in comparison to other tailed beasts without any explanation given and that my friend is a hax.

EDIT:

In respect to the moderation of this forum I won't touch on this subject beyond what is covered in this topic.

 

[jaymizzo]

Re: Naruto 644 Discussion / 645 Predictions

If I'm born next to a gun, and my dad grafts that gun to my body... and I use said gun so much that that gun becomes like an actual extension of myself, that gun doesn't automatically become my strength. It's still a tool that was given to me by someone else who chose to make me a powerful freak regardless of what I wanted. I just happen to be attached to it is all. Reaping all the benefits that come with it regardless of how much effort I put in to actually get it.

Fair enough, but also realize this, No Uchiha is born with the Sharingan, they are born with normal eyes and it takes a mutation or whatever for them to awaken. Sasuke could have gone all his life with just normal eyes. He was not born with 1, 2 or 3 tomoes in his eyes, he was born like any other child. That is what the Sharingan is right? It is proved by having a certain pattern in your eyes.

We have a very different understanding on this subject.

 

[ninjabot]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

How does it change anything about Naruto lying about the situation after Sasuke fought all the Kage. It is a lie that Naruto wouldn't have beat Sasuke in the situation Neji describes. And if they both had been at a recovered state:
He wasn't lying. He was telling them what he saw/sensed.

You could make the argument that whatever he saw was an illusion of a POSSIBLE future. But you can't change the fact that if they did indeed fight, Naruto would've lost. They both would've lost to be more accurate.

Come to think of it... Itachi fought Sasuke while nearly blind. Against SM Naruto (a Naruto who still had a 5 minute time limit, and still could only make a certain number of clones while in SM) a version of Sasuke who'd just received his Enton Orb, and a final form Susanoo?

Wow. Never actually paid attention to how bleak that situation was until now. And it makes more sense why he opted for Kurama's chakra.

Someone get's it that you would always blame/award Kurama and not Naruto for a win?

Well, yeah. That's what I said isn't it? LOL, you think I'm ashamed of that shit? Ashamed of comprehending how the manga actually works. Yeah.

Thanks for that, lol.