Shounen Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto

[Fox666]

I just realized Gaara's gourd is shaped like Tanuki balls. LOL

 

[M3J]

Shisui plan was in fact to change Fugaku's mind with the Kotoamatsukami.

Ao recognized Danzou was using Shisui's dojutsu, meaning that Shisui used it before, and given his age (Itachi was 13 at the time) it couldn't be over a decade ago. So Shisui may have choose to not waste the only eye he had left to use Kotoamatsukami on Danzou.

But Danzou said no way jose and plucked the eye, which left Shisui with just one eye.

Still debatable if the limit was the same for the original owner of the eyes.

 

[NaruSaku8]

I found this:

[gb] Post moved[/gb]

 

[Rikudobito]

I was one of the first people to claim that it was odd that Naruto was able to create an eye for Kakashi given the fact that he had the Yang power. I even said that he might be using the yin power based on the ability to create things. However, it was stated by others, assumption by the way, that he was simply using Kakashi DNA to regenerate another eye for him. Turns out he was using creation of all things. So in reality everyone was both right and wrong regarding that.

Well in fact right after the said chapter ( 675 ) came out, I saw what Naruto did similar to what Hagoromo achieved in the past albeit an inferior version due to Naruto still being unexperienced with his powers. Naruto said : " It's like I took a part of kakashi ...and kinda ...uuhmm ", even though there can be different interpretations concerning this, I thought that it seemed just like how Hagoromo took a part of the Ten-Tails for each Tailed beast he created. Similarly, Naruto took a part of kakashi to create a new eye back for him. Keyword in both circumstances : a part.

In fact yeah, I thought it was Creation of all things but a weaker-scale version of it. Well... I don't think Naruto would have to use it on a grander scale just to create an eye for Kakashi. Methinks the sun and moon symbol Naruto and Sasuke had were only to use the Six Paths - Chibaku Tensei.

 

[KiSwordsman]

Well in fact right after the said chapter ( 675 ) came out, I saw what Naruto did similar to what Hagoromo achieved in the past albeit an inferior version due to Naruto still being unexperienced with his powers. Naruto said : " It's like I took a part of kakashi ...and kinda ...uuhmm ", even though there can be different interpretations concerning this, I thought that it seemed just like how Hagoromo took a part of the Ten-Tails for each Tailed beast he created. Similarly, Naruto took a part of kakashi to create a new eye back for him. Keyword in both circumstances : a part.

In fact yeah, I thought it was Creation of all things but a weaker-scale version of it. Well... I don't think Naruto would have to use it on a grander scale just to create an eye for Kakashi. Methinks the sun and moon symbol Naruto and Sasuke had were only to use the Six Paths - Chibaku Tensei.

I didn't actually consider that until just now. The thing that kept me from connecting the dots in that way was the simple fact that Naruto replaced something that was already there at one point, instead of creating something entirely different like the Sage before him. However, I knew that yin had something to do with it. But everyone was so focused on the seals being more than what they apparently were. Which is understandable. I mean we didn't really even know that it was the seal for Chibaku Tensei until it was literally shown to us. We all thought that it was a representation of each half of the sages powers.

 

[Delbi]

I was one of the first people to claim that it was odd that Naruto was able to create an eye for Kakashi given the fact that he had the Yang power. I even said that he might be using the yin power based on the ability to create things. However, it was stated by others, assumption by the way, that he was simply using Kakashi DNA to regenerate another eye for him. Turns out he was using creation of all things. So in reality everyone was both right and wrong regarding that.

And here's the problem with that. Gai. If Naruto could "create" a new eye for Kakashi why couldn't he heal Gai fully? It's not as if he lost these powers because Sasuke obviously still has the Rinnegan years later. So that would seem to explain that Naruto doesn't have both Yin and Yang.

Naruto tells us plainly that he "used part of Kakashi" to create a new eye. That isn't comparable to the creation of the Biju and here's why.

Naruto crafted an eye, something flesh and blood. But it's simply an eye, nothing more nothing less.

The Sage however, used pure energy (The Juubi's Chakra) and created 9 sentient beings with it. That is on an entirely different level that what Naruto did.

This idea that Naruto has both the Yin and Yang power simply makes no sense, because if he did he'd be capable of much more than creating an eye or saving Gai's life. He should have been at the very least, been able to bring Gai back to 100% and he never did that even years down the line as Gai is a cripple in the future.

So I just don't see how Naruto could have the ability to "create all things" yet he can't fix Gai. Just doesn't make sense, which is why I call the Databook a bunch of BS, or simply that whoever translated it took too many liberties. Because Kishimoto's own story trumps what it's telling us.

Here's the thing about that, you say that as if what Danzo showed was the full extent of what he could do with the eye. Which it was not as far as we know. The same thing with Itachi. That's where the entire basis of them being able to do two different things with the eye even comes from. That's the key here. Danzo was using the technique before we even knew its name, so of course what he's going to show with it and the full extent of what it's capable of is going to be different and kept secret until the time the author chooses to reveal that information. Even then, there was the fact that Danzo was fully confident that he could control Sasuke to fight Obito but held back because of Sasuke's own condition. The Databook basically tells us what they can do with it. Even if one wants to call BS on the translation.

But here

Anyway, the thing about it is that I'd rather rely on the translation than something people came up with based on lack of information. Now we have that information. So this whole "weaker version of Kotoamatsukami" can be put to rest.

And once again, the manga is trumping the Databook.

It is entirely possible that giving a mere suggestion with Kotoamatsukami gives way to a 24 hour cool down (which is what happened to Danzou), but using it's full power causes a year 10 year cooldown.

It's hard to imagine that an Uchiha would be less skilled with the eye than Danzou would be. Also, no other power we've seen has a cool down that insane. All the occular powers come with some kind of set back, and aside from Izanagi and Izanami none are that bad.

We've seen MS can have multiple functions with the same eye. Hell, we've even seen that each jutsu can change depending on how much chakra is used. Just look at Tsukuyomi, it can be used to create different illusions at different rates. Amaterasu can be used in a number of different ways. And Susssano has partial transformations. Even Kamui can be used in different ways.

So why is it so hard to believe the same can't be true for Kotoamatsukami, especially when we have actual evidence to support it. The Databooks constantly contradict the manga, and like always instead of giving us answers we are left with more questions. I don't see why it should be believed now when we have evidence from the source material that conflicts with what it is telling us.

 

[KiSwordsman]

And here's the problem with that. Gai. If Naruto could "create" a new eye for Kakashi why couldn't he heal Gai fully? It's not as if he lost these powers because Sasuke obviously still has the Rinnegan years later. So that would seem to explain that Naruto doesn't have both Yin and Yang.

Naruto tells us plainly that he "used part of Kakashi" to create a new eye. That isn't comparable to the creation of the Biju and here's why.

Naruto crafted an eye, something flesh and blood. But it's simply an eye, nothing more nothing less.

The Sage however, used pure energy (The Juubi's Chakra) and created 9 sentient beings with it. That is on an entirely different level that what Naruto did.

This idea that Naruto has both the Yin and Yang power simply makes no sense, because if he did he'd be capable of much more than creating an eye or saving Gai's life. He should have been the very least, been able to bring Gai back to 100% and he never did that even years down the line as Gai is a cripple in the future.

So I just don't see how Naruto could have the ability to "create all things" yet he can't fix Gai. Just doesn't make sense, which is why I call the Databook a bunch of BS, or simply that whoever translated it took too many liberties. Because Kishimoto's own story trumps what it's telling us.

The same reason that Sasuke can't use all the Rinnegan abilities the second that he gets the eye. Naruto isn't going to have the same proficiency with creation of all things that the Sage does. Even then, it was most likely for plot purposes and you know that. Do you honestly believe that you'd be okay with the consequences being completely erased for guy? Yes, so there can't be lesser levels of the technique? It has to be grandiose or nothing? That's the error.

I understand where you're coming from in some respects. However, I'd rather trust information given by the author then stuff the audience comes up with to make sense of things. If a better translation comes along and information is changed, I'll have no problem. However, this is what we have and I'm not just going to deny that based on something not done specifically for the plot and to actually give consequence for using a technique that's absolutely supposed to result in one's death. The fact that guy survived that ordeal was BS in and of itself. There had to be some consequence, otherwise, the emotion presented in those chapters would have meant nothing.

Also I would like to point out that you are denying that Naruto has the creation of all things technique based on something he didn't do instead of any inconsistencies in something that he did do with the technique. I could throw one of those right back at you. Why doesn't killer B call Gyuki by his name? After all he is a perfect Jinchuriki and friends with the beast. So why? Because, Kishimoto wanted to keep the names of the beasts secret, or the fact that they even had names in the first place. So he purposefully had killer B never call the eighth tails by his name
for that reason.

Here's another one. Karin clearly showed the ability to be able to bite and heal herself when she was impaled Zetsu's wood technique. Why exactly did she not do the same against Sasuke? Plot reasons. It's the same thing. Pass information, contradicts current information. The Databook is the current information versus the past information within the manga.

The Karin example is information within the manga contradicting itself. There's seemingly no reason for Karin to not have healed herself from the wound Sasuke inflicted upon her. So why didn't she?

And once again, the manga is trumping the Databook.

It is entirely possible that giving a mere suggestion with Kotoamatsukami gives way to a 24 hour cool down (which is what happened to Danzou), but using it's full power causes a year 10 year cooldown.

It's hard to imagine that an Uchiha would be less skilled with the eye than Danzou would be. Also, no other power we've seen has a cool down that insane. All the occular powers come with some kind of set back, and aside from Izanagi and Izanami none are that bad.

We've seen MS can have multiple functions with the same eye. Hell, we've even seen that each jutsu can change depending on how much chakra is used. Just look at Tsukuyomi, it can be used to create different illusions at different rates. Amaterasu can be used in a number of different ways. And Susssano has partial transformations. Even Kamui can be used in different ways.

So why is it so hard to believe the same can't be true for Kotoamatsukami, especially when we have actual evidence to support it. The Databooks constantly contradict the manga, and like always instead of giving us answers we are left with more questions. I don't see why it should be believed now when we have evidence from the source material that conflicts with what it is telling us.

And here's where you lost me with that claim. Where in the manga does it state that giving suggestions is Danzo's limit, or that's the reason that it shortened the cool down time? I know what Itachi says shortens the cooldown time for the technique, Hashirama's DNA. What did Danzo have? See? That's entirely your own opinion. You make the assumption that Danzo used his full capabilities with that eye, which is where the basis for the difference even comes from. In order for that to be legitimate it would have to be clearly stated somewhere what Danzo's limit with it was, as far as what he could do. That's not stated anywhere. That's assumed by the fans to try to set a limit on what Danzo could do with it because we did not know at the time. The rest is just assumptions based on other techniques.

• No one said that Shisui or Itachi is less skilled, the assumption is being made that Danzo should be less skilled. Keyword there being "should." And we've seen a non-Uchiha match an Uchiha in the usage of their own ability. I doubt I have to name whom.
  
  
• Yes, we have seen that mangekyo techniques can be used to different degrees. But here's the key thing, the full capabilities of the eye that Danzo possessed were never explored. It was a complete assumption that Danzo was limited to suggestions. This was based on lack of information. We have that information now.
  
  
• It's not hard to believe that at all, but the evidence that you speak of is based on a complete assumption as stated many times above. There is no evidence because we don't know Danzo's full limit with the technique. We assume.
  
  
• Here's the thing. The current Databook is current information. The Databook has conflicted the manga but usually it's the past Databook conflicting with current information. For you to say that the current Databook conflicts with the now finished manga doesn't really make sense. Once again, I rather believe current information than stuff people come up with due to lack of information.

 

[Holt]

And here's the problem with that. Gai. If Naruto could "create" a new eye for Kakashi why couldn't he heal Gai fully? It's not as if he lost these powers because Sasuke obviously still has the Rinnegan years later. So that would seem to explain that Naruto doesn't have both Yin and Yang.

Naruto tells us plainly that he "used part of Kakashi" to create a new eye. That isn't comparable to the creation of the Biju and here's why.

Naruto crafted an eye, something flesh and blood. But it's simply an eye, nothing more nothing less.

The Sage however, used pure energy (The Juubi's Chakra) and created 9 sentient beings with it. That is on an entirely different level that what Naruto did.

This idea that Naruto has both the Yin and Yang power simply makes no sense, because if he did he'd be capable of much more than creating an eye or saving Gai's life. He should have been at the very least, been able to bring Gai back to 100% and he never did that even years down the line as Gai is a cripple in the future.

So I just don't see how Naruto could have the ability to "create all things" yet he can't fix Gai. Just doesn't make sense, which is why I call the Databook a bunch of BS, or simply that whoever translated it took too many liberties. Because Kishimoto's own story trumps what it's telling us.

I disagree. Haguromo's powers were for starters on a greater magnitude/scale. He made the bijuu when he was very old and about to die, while he and hamura fought jyuubi/kaguya when they were young adults. That's an unbelievable amount of time/years he had to accumulate sufficient experience and develop his technique to perfection. Naruto did fix gai but as mentioned, to completely heal him would defeat the plot. However I don't believe naruto used creation of all things (COAT) in gai's case. He only stabilised his lifeforce which was the issue with the gates. I think for the COAT to actually be used, then the effect its usage creates shouldn't already exist. In kakashi's case, the eye didn't exist anymore, so using 'part' of kakashi, he was able to create a new eye. Gai didn't really lose anything. He was only dying out, something naruto prevented. It might have been better for him to perhaps actually lose limbs or something.

In essence what I'm trying to say is that something cannot be created when it already exists. Also the bijuu aren't completely comparable to humans. The human anatomy and structure is of a different complexity than that of the bijuu. Except haguromo could somehow create a human, which I'll say is quite impossibe.

---------- Post added at 10:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:08 AM ----------

And here's where you lost me with that claim. Where in the manga does it state that giving suggestions is Danzo's limit, or that's the reason that it shortened the cool down time? I know what Itachi says shortens the cooldown time for the technique, Hashirama's DNA. What did Danzo have? See? That's entirely your own opinion. You make the assumption that Danzo used his full capabilities with that eye, which is where the basis for the difference even comes from. In order for that to be legitimate it would have to be clearly stated somewhere what Danzo's limit with it was, as far as what he could do. That's not stated anywhere. That's assumed by the fans to try to set a limit on what Danzo could do with it because we did not know at the time. The rest is just assumptions based on other techniques.

I don't think suggestion was danzou's limit. I'm quite sure he could fully utilise KA. However I think what he did was suggestion. The thing is they were in a sitting, where a leader would have inevitably been chosen via democratic means. Fully using KA to overwrite the will of mifune would not guarantee his appointment as head of the alliance if the other kages didn't agree, so I believe the suggestion was to make it seem as reasonable as possible in order to also convince the other kages.
Also usage of a technique would infact directly affect cooldown. Eg using a partial susano would not affect one as much as using a perfect susano despite both actually being susano. The role hashirama's cells played was supposedly providing stamina to reduce the cooldown. This follows the trend of sharingan as the main issue (asides getting blind from overuse) is stamina to sustain it. I doubt hashirama cells are able to actually provide stamina enough to negate a 10 year difference. So I believe it was a case of danzou not fully utilising the eye ( not because he couldn't, but just that he didn't ). He never used it for a full overhaul of ones mindset which is the full power so we never got to accurately see how much hashirama's cells could make a difference in that regard.

Even with the databook, some discretion is needed as some things just wouldn't make sense otherwise. Evident by your previous argument with delbi as to naruto's possession of the COAT and why gai wasn't fully healed.

 

[KiSwordsman]

I don't think suggestion was danzou's limit. I'm quite sure he could fully utilise KA. However I think what he did was suggestion. The thing is they were in a sitting, where a leader would have inevitably been chosen via democratic means. Fully using KA to overwrite the will of mifune would not guarantee his appointment as head of the alliance if the other kages didn't agree, so I believe the suggestion was to make it seem as reasonable as possible in order to also convince the other kages.
Also usage of a technique would infact directly affect cooldown. Eg using a partial susano would not affect one as much as using a perfect susano despite both actually being susano. The role hashirama's cells played was supposedly providing stamina to reduce the cooldown. This follows the trend of sharingan as the main issue (asides getting blind from overuse) is stamina to sustain it. I doubt hashirama cells are able to actually provide stamina enough to negate a 10 year difference. So I believe it was a case of danzou not fully utilising the eye ( not because he couldn't, but just that he didn't ). He never used it for a full overhaul of ones mindset which is the full power so we never got to accurately see how much hashirama's cells could make a difference in that regard.

Even with the databook, some discretion is needed as some things just wouldn't make sense otherwise. Evident by your previous argument with delbi as to naruto's possession of the COAT and why gai wasn't fully healed.

My argument was never that Danzo didn't sway Mifune by Suggestion. It Was that that was not all that he could do. What he did with the eye has always Been a limit set on him by forum members due to lack of information about the technique. It was fine before because all we could go on was what he showed. We have information about the technique now. And we know the circumstances regarding the cooldown reduction. That's why I don't agree with the "weaker version of Kotoamatsukami" line because it tries to imply a limit with what Danzo could do with the eye versus what Itachi did. Instead of recognizing that Danzo did what he did to fit the situation.

 

[Rikudobito]

And here's the problem with that. Gai. If Naruto could "create" a new eye for Kakashi why couldn't he heal Gai fully? It's not as if he lost these powers because Sasuke obviously still has the Rinnegan years later. So that would seem to explain that Naruto doesn't have both Yin and Yang.

Naruto tells us plainly that he "used part of Kakashi" to create a new eye. That isn't comparable to the creation of the Biju and here's why.

Naruto crafted an eye, something flesh and blood. But it's simply an eye, nothing more nothing less.

Well, nobody ever compared what Naruto did to the Sage's feat of creating nine entities, no one ever did that ( I suppose... ). Comparing both feats would be absurd and laughable.

Although, it's just like how KiSwordsman said ( who pretty much ended the argument ) , Naruto is not yet used to this power and why would he need to use it on Hagoromo's level when the situation did not even ask for it.

However... what Naruto did is so simple actually.

He shaped a new eye for Kakashi, that's all. You even used the word crafted which would also mean "created " in that instance. Now the word you have just used simply represents what Yin Release is known to do ; to create shape/form out of nothingness and it only served to strengthen the point I made.

It's just crystal clear, Naruto shaped an eye for Kakashi 'out of nothingness' and he gave life to the cells present in that eye he just shaped for the latter. This feat seemingly represents the combined action of both Shadow & Light styles. ( Yin and Yang )

And once again, the manga is trumping the Databook.

It is entirely possible that giving a mere suggestion with Kotoamatsukami gives way to a 24 hour cool down (which is what happened to Danzou), but using it's full power causes a year 10 year cooldown.

It's hard to imagine that an Uchiha would be less skilled with the eye than Danzou would be. Also, no other power we've seen has a cool down that insane. All the occular powers come with some kind of set back, and aside from Izanagi and Izanami none are that bad.

Of course it's hard to imagine that Danzo would be more skilled than an Uchiha with a Sharingan, a Mangekyo Sharingan on top of that.
But however the 10 year-period cooldown of Shisui's Kotoamatsukami was reduced because Danzo had Hashirama's cells in his possession so that is not surprising at all.

 

[Holt]

My argument was never that Danzo didn't sway Mifune by Suggestion. It Was that that was not all that he could do. What he did with the eye has always Been a limit set on him by forum members due to lack of information about the technique. It was fine before because all we could go on was what he showed. We have information about the technique now. And we know the circumstances regarding the cooldown reduction. That's why I don't agree with the "weaker version of Kotoamatsukami" line because it tries to imply a limit with what Danzo could do with the eye versus what Itachi did. Instead of recognizing that Danzo did what he did to fit the situation.

Oh I misunderstood then. Danzou should be able to fully utilise KA. Weaker version doesn't necessarily mean a limit on danzou, although it seems some people imply that. Perhaps saying a 'lesser' version works?.

 

[Freid]

Out of curiosity, who do you guys think would have won in a fight?

The 10 year old Itachi who had already passed the Chuunin exams and was probably stronger than most Jonin ninjas.

Or

The 10 year old Nagato who was able to master all six chakra types and all the jutsu Jaraiya taught him.

 

[Fox666]

Nagato. He killed a Chunnin with only the Rinnengan, while Itachi probably would not not have a three-tomoe Sharingan at the time.

 

[Holt]

Out of curiosity, who do you guys think would have won in a fight?

The 10 year old Itachi who had already passed the Chuunin exams and was probably stronger than most Jonin ninjas.

Or

The 10 year old Nagato who was able to master all six chakra types and all the jutsu Jaraiya taught him.

Hmm, Itachi's only advantage would have been the fact he actually got proper ninja training and breezed through it however, Nagato got personal coaching from a sannin (which is most likely better than ninja academy training) and was particularly pretty quick on the uptake. Mastering every thing easily.

So I would have to say nagato, at their young age, nagato had quite an amount of advantage. In their teen years, I would put itachi over him though.

 

[Delbi]

The same reason that Sasuke can't use all the Rinnegan abilities the second that he gets the eye. Naruto isn't going to have the same proficiency with creation of all things that the Sage does. Even then, it was most likely for plot purposes and you know that. Do you honestly believe that you'd be okay with the consequences being completely erased for guy? Yes, so there can't be lesser levels of the technique? It has to be grandiose or nothing? That's the error.

Except that when we flash forward 20 or so years Gai is still a cripple. I highly doubt Naruto couldn't develop his powers to the point where he could heal Gai in the future. My issue wasn't that he didn't heal Gai on the spot, because like you said he was still inexperienced.

But to say Naruto has the power of the Sage with Creation of All things means he'd be on his level at some point. The fact that Sasuke was able to achieve near his level according the Kyuubi just by gaining more chakra seems to me that Naruto would suprass that level 15-20 years in the future. And if he did, then Naruto could literally create anything.

If in fact Naruto does have the power it is a dumbed down version, which is basically just a Yang technique to heal things at an advanced level similar to what Tsuande can do. That's my issue here, is we are christening Naruto with the greatest power in the manga because he created an eye ball and because a databook says he has it. The fact that the databook doesn't go into any detail is why I am skeptical and think it's a translation error or simply a misinterpretation of what was said.

Think about it, how did Naruto get the Yin power? He wasn't given that by the Sage, and it's not like the Biju grant that. Without the Yin power he can't use The Creation of All things. It simply doesn't make sense. A simple line in a databook isn't changing what actually happened.

I understand where you're coming from in some respects. However, I'd rather trust information given by the author then stuff the audience comes up with to make sense of things. If a better translation comes along and information is changed, I'll have no problem. However, this is what we have and I'm not just going to deny that based on something not done specifically for the plot and to actually give consequence for using a technique that's absolutely supposed to result in one's death. The fact that guy survived that ordeal was BS in and of itself. There had to be some consequence, otherwise, the emotion presented in those chapters would have meant nothing.

I agree that the Gai situation was BS, but Naruto healed him to show off his new Yang power, because if he hadn't there wasn't much evidence that Naruto gained anything other than the Truth Seeking Balls, whereas Sasuke was getting all kinds of shit.

Also I would like to point out that you are denying that Naruto has the creation of all things technique based on something he didn't do instead of any inconsistencies in something that he did do with the technique. I could throw one of those right back at you. Why doesn't killer B call Gyuki by his name? After all he is a perfect Jinchuriki and friends with the beast. So why? Because, Kishimoto wanted to keep the names of the beasts secret, or the fact that they even had names in the first place. So he purposefully had killer B never call the eighth tails by his name
for that reason.

I'm denying that Naruto doesn't have it based on the fact he hasn't shown anything that shows that he does. The databook says something and the only manga evidence that backs it up is the creation of an eye.

As for why Bee doesn't call him by his name, it could be a personal choice, who knows. Bee isn't exactly a formal person.

Here's another one. Karin clearly showed the ability to be able to bite and heal herself when she was impaled Zetsu's wood technique. Why exactly did she not do the same against Sasuke? Plot reasons. It's the same thing. Pass information, contradicts current information. The Databook is the current information versus the past information within the manga.

The Karin example is information within the manga contradicting itself. There's seemingly no reason for Karin to not have healed herself from the wound Sasuke inflicted upon her. So why didn't she?

Karin was an emotional wreck when this happened. She lives for Sasuke. The reason she didn't do anything was because she was so shocked at what Sasuke had become. Her own life meant less to her at that moment than what she perceived Sasuke to be, the man she idolized and loved. So to me this is an awful example.

And here's where you lost me with that claim. Where in the manga does it state that giving suggestions is Danzo's limit, or that's the reason that it shortened the cool down time? I know what Itachi says shortens the cooldown time for the technique, Hashirama's DNA. What did Danzo have? See? That's entirely your own opinion. You make the assumption that Danzo used his full capabilities with that eye, which is where the basis for the difference even comes from. In order for that to be legitimate it would have to be clearly stated somewhere what Danzo's limit with it was, as far as what he could do. That's not stated anywhere. That's assumed by the fans to try to set a limit on what Danzo could do with it because we did not know at the time. The rest is just assumptions based on other techniques.

There's no evidence that giving suggestions was his limit and that isn't my point. My point is he first used it to give a suggestion and then later wanted to use it to control Sasuke, thereby showing us two different ways the technique could be used.

As far as me making assumptions, they are pretty well grounded. I'm not making shit up, I'm just using facts. EVERY MS power has different degrees at which it can be used. Why would this one power be any different?

No one said that Shisui or Itachi is less skilled, the assumption is being made that Danzo should be less skilled. Keyword there being "should." And we've seen a non-Uchiha match an Uchiha in the usage of their own ability. I doubt I have to name whom.

I don't think Kakashi ever exceeded Obito's ability with Kamui. And when and if you think he did, he did so when he had both eyes. We were told specifically that the eyes work better when they are together, and Obito never got a chance to use both when he was healthy.

Yes, we have seen that mangekyo techniques can be used to different degrees. But here's the key thing, the full capabilities of the eye that Danzo possessed were never explored. It was a complete assumption that Danzo was limited to suggestions. This was based on lack of information. We have that information now.

The eye Danzou possessed had the same powers as the one Itachi used and we saw it's limit when it dominated ET and Itachi, the manga's best genjutsu user.

Here's the thing. The current Databook is current information. The Databook has conflicted the manga but usually it's the past Databook conflicting with current information. For you to say that the current Databook conflicts with the now finished manga doesn't really make sense. Once again, I rather believe current information than stuff people come up with due to lack of information.

It does conflict because IMO, it's giving Naruto an ability he never displayed. Again, at best, Naruto has a very water downed version of Creation of All Things, but there is 1) No explanation how he got the Yin power necessary to use it and 2) The creation of an eye, is nothing like what the Sage did.

You could argue that there are different levels of the technique, fine, sure. But to think Naruto never got better with the technique over 20 years of having it is asinine to me. He never fully healed Gai, nor did he ever re-create his arm.

Although, it's just like how KiSwordsman said ( who pretty much ended the argument ) , Naruto is not yet used to this power and why would he need to use it on Hagoromo's level when the situation did not even ask for it.

And that argument seems rather shallow when in chapter 700 Naruto still has Hashirama's DNA arm and Gai is still a cripple. You're telling me in 20 years he never advanced a technique that could save lives and return people to normal? That seems stupid.

What is more likely is he never possessed the technique in the first place, he simply used his Yang power to heal things and there is a limit to that.

The Creation of All Things technique should have no limit. The Sage used it to create The 9 Biju, and you're telling me in 20 years of having the same technique Naruto couldn't figure out how to replace his arm or fix Gai? Yea that's why I think it's bullshit.

---------- Post added at 03:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:52 PM ----------

Out of curiosity, who do you guys think would have won in a fight?

The 10 year old Itachi who had already passed the Chuunin exams and was probably stronger than most Jonin ninjas.

Or

The 10 year old Nagato who was able to master all six chakra types and all the jutsu Jaraiya taught him.

Itachi, he's a much better ninja than Nagato who was simply all power. We saw how Itachi fought him when they were both ET'd.

 

[Holt]

Itachi, he's a much better ninja than Nagato who was simply all power. We saw how Itachi fought him when they were both ET'd.

There was a criteria and that's age. At the age given for both of them and skill set at that time, itachi wouldn't have been able to defeat nagato. There are examples like this: sasuke would easily pawn naruto at 10, kakashi could do same to gai and obito etc.

 

[Freid]

There was a criteria and that's age. At the age given for both of them and skill set at that time, itachi wouldn't have been able to defeat nagato. There are examples like this: sasuke would easily pawn naruto at 10, kakashi could do same to gai and obito etc.

So Itachi wins when they're adults? Even against Nagato with his legs?

 

[Holt]

So Itachi wins when they're adults? Even against Nagato with his legs?

I'm not explicitly saying so. Nagato was stronger when they were kids. Itachi got ahead during their teen years, itachi should have also been able to take pain (using amateratsu on the four outside deva and preta should work right?) and by extension pre-war nagato seeing as he was crippled. However a nagato that's not crippled and using the 6 paths through his own body should be off limits to itachi, but then again itachi has his blade of totsuka which is a trump card. Its debate able seeing as nagato should logically win but if its not an ill itachi, he might be able to pull it off in a rare scenario. What I'm saying is, nagato should and most likely would win but itachi could sneak a victory as well.

 

[Delbi]

I'm not explicitly saying so. Nagato was stronger when they were kids. Itachi got ahead during their teen years, itachi should have also been able to take pain (using amateratsu on the four outside deva and preta should work right?) and by extension pre-war nagato seeing as he was crippled. However a nagato that's not crippled and using the 6 paths through his own body should be off limits to itachi, but then again itachi has his blade of totsuka which is a trump card. Its debate able seeing as nagato should logically win but if its not an ill itachi, he might be able to pull it off in a rare scenario. What I'm saying is, nagato should and most likely would win but itachi could sneak a victory as well.

Itachi was already a Chunnin at the age of 5 and a Jounin not long after if I remember right. I don't see how Nagato had any real advantage over him at the age of 10 aside from the fact he could use more elemental jutsu.

Itachi physically would likely be much faster and stronger from what we've seen. Also he is probably the best all around weapons users in the manga. When you add in intelligence and just the fact Itachi was a true ninja and Nagato was not, I think the only time Nagato had any advantage over Itachi would have been when he gained the full use of the 6 paths and created 6 bodies or when Nagato was an ET and could use his legs again.

Nagato was no genius whereas Itachi was a prodigy. Nagato's power/skill is 100% related to his Kekkai Genkai whereas Itachi's isnt.

So at the age of ten and even in their teen years I'd say Itachi would wipe the floor with him. It's only later on that Nagato's power got so crazy that he surpassed Itachi but just in power terms, not in skill, intelligence, or battle prowess etc.

I would like to see a fight between the two of them where both are mortal and fully healthy. It make it even I'd say give Itachi EMS just so he doesn't have anything hindering him. Nagato would have full access to all his powers, and would be fully healthy. It'd be one hell of a fight.

 

[Holt]

Itachi was already a Chunnin at the age of 5 and a Jounin not long after if I remember right. I don't see how Nagato had any real advantage over him at the age of 10 aside from the fact he could use more elemental jutsu.

I would like to see a fight between the two of them where both are mortal and fully healthy. It make it even I'd say give Itachi EMS just so he doesn't have anything hindering him. Nagato would have full access to all his powers, and would be fully healthy. It'd be one hell of a fight.

A bit inaccurate, itachi passed chunnin exams at age 10. Nagato also got training from jiraiya. That wasn't only limited to ninjustsu as he made then competent enough to survive on their own in such a war-ridden and savage land. Itachis skill at that time, wouldn't have made up for the advantage nagato had over him thanks to the rinnegan. A few years down the road however (teen years), itachi's skill should have grown enough to compensate for that.

Yeah a fight between both of them uninhibited and in perfect condition would epic.