Shounen Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto

[Impossibility]

I would say it was incomplete based on the fact that he only used Madara's body, which was a Kage Bushin. It wasn't his real body but a copy. We've seen with Shin that there are in fact more perfect clones than Kage Bushin, and we also know it's regular practice in the manga to not simply leave bodies lying around so the idea that he was testing this theory on multiple Uchiha corpses doesn't hold much water. He observed things in battle then got access to Madara's fake corpse and conducted experiments.

And you've come to that conclusion how? You've no idea how or on whom he experimented or based his conclusions. This is absolute nonsense.

To assume his bias didn't affect his conclusion to me would then discredit Hashirama's own anger with him. It's plainly obvious he was bias, it's part of his character. Could it have not influenced him? Sure. But the possibility remains that it very well could have, and you want to dismiss that on what basis exactly?

No one's disputing that Tobirama was biased. The possibility exists? In your last post you unequivocally declared that his bias affected his conclusion, after boldly declaring his methods to be "shitty". You continue to criticise what you perceive to be a conclusion based on limited means, yet these criticisms are based on a narrative you're straight-up making up as you go.

Again, we have no idea but we want to just assume it was true? He wasn't a medical ninja, but we want to claim his medical experiments, that you said we have no idea about, were perfect because he's Tobirama?

I didn't say his experiments were perfect. Ever. Mainly because I don't know his methods. No one here does. And we've little clue to his level of expertise with medical ninjutsu. However, what difference does it make if he wasn't a medical nin. It didn't stop him from creating clones or making immortal zombies. Orochimaru isn't a medical nin, he seems to have done just fine. I haven't seen anyone questioning him.

And while the existence of level-headed Uchiha doesn't discredit his theory, it does infact lead to an alternate explanation. There are other explanations to this whole "curse" phenomena, mainly that there is no curse, and that the Uchiha's that experienced these sympotems simply succumbed to depression and psychosis via PTSD and manipulation.

If it doesn't discredit it, why keep suggesting it does? You probably could've saved everyone some time.

Except basic human physiology does apply for the most part. The humans in this manga still function for the most part like normal humans but they have additional characteristics that can be explained via the science or whatever you wish to call it of the manga. There is a science to how these bodies work, if there wasn't Tobirama would never be able to explain what he did.

It doesn't apply here. We know that. The Sharingan, as I pointed out, cannot be explained by science. So why waste space. Yes, there is a "science" to explaining these in the manga, that doesn't have anything to do with ours. And Tobirama used that "science" to come to his conclusions. He seems to have been pretty good at it. Unless, of course, with your knowledge of this "science", you can point out some flaws. Can you?

Tsuande is a perfect example of a human with PTSD. Naruto has had panic attacks before that make him pass out. We've seen Sasuke go temporarily insane. We've seen other people act like complete lunatics. Mental diseases obviously existence within the manga, so are we just so supposed to ignore it? All these diseases and actions are the function of mental/emotional responses that trigger reactions in brain chemistry. I don't think Kishi included them with the intention to offer an alternate explanation as to why the occur.

Ok....

So then we just accept it as true? Characters have been wrong, very wrong before when claiming things in this manga. Why should we consider Tobirama any different especially after the revelation of Black Zetsu being the architect of literally every shitty thing that had to do with the Uchiha clan dating all the way back to Indra?

Yes is the short answer.

So I shouldn't be critical of something just because we didn't see it? That's the entire point, we have no evidence of what he did yet we take his conclusion for fact...because?

The fact that more evidence emerged later shows that his experiments were in fact incomplete, or at the very least out of date.

It would seem to be quite difficult to criticise something fairly that you admit to not knowing anything about.

You just said yourself that the curse was never explained as an absolute, the character that wasn't discrediting it (Hashirama) also had doubts about it obviously but seemed to be quite emotional about the whole situation. No one else knew about this theory and thus said nothing. We the readers know things that Tobirama didn't, and despite you thinking the fictional character knows best, he doesn't know all. We can clearly discredit him as there are very relevant factors that weren't taken into account when he came to the conclusion he did.

Hashirama obviously had doubts about it? Is that why after openly criticising Tobirama on other points he remained silent and only spoke up at the end to add how much Madara loved his brother, a comment that tied in directly with what Tobirama had just said? Oh, ok. And despite the claim that you can clearly discredit him, you haven't actually pointed to anything that does.... you haven't even come close.

 

[xXan]

@jaymizzo

Itachi had absolutely no justification for killing every single member of the clan.

I alrady gave you plenty of it.

He could have simply done what he did to Sasuke on the rest of them, let them focus their hate on him.

Right, because it would be believable that he allowed them all to live to "test his power"? Because Danzo did not give him the ultimatum on who to kill? Because Danzo did not already told Itachi what the deal is to keep Sasuke alive? Because Danzo and the elders would allow them to live when it took so much to allow even Sasuke to live (aside for the deal Itachi also had to threaten Danzo and beg Sarutobi to protect him).

Not all members of the Uchiha clan were in on the coup, surely the children and those without the sharingan were not going to participate in anything.

Sasuke was not in it as he was to young. Anybody old enough, sharingan or not would be in it.
We don't even know how many and if any children Sasuke's age were around.
Tell me, how many kids did the story implied were around? How many were showed? I know it would be freaky to be the only Uchiha at that age but who knows.

You say that those children and women would have been killed anyway... No, they would have been murdered anyway by Danzou and co. You cannot indiscriminately wipe out an entire community of people and justify it as doing it for the greater good by murdering potential enemies. It is absurd.

Murdered, killed or whatever you want to call it. Point is they would be put down and if Itachi did not follow his order not even Sasuke would be left alive. How good this system is... Well its besides the point, we are arguing Itachi's fault in it.
Now I do not agree to genocide and I would not do what he did. Point is he saved so much people its incalculable by his actions. Kill 10 kids that were going to die anyway to save hundreds or thousands from death, starvation and so on? You know Nagato's story right? That is what he saved, those type of kids growing up with no parents or flat out die.
I am telling you that murder IS SUBJECTIVE. Murder is applied in the context of the rules set by the government and the society one lives in. You applying your laws and your moral to this is not right. This village is set something like feudal Japan.
Now read here who even Hashirama would not forgive:
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/626/15
The children where a future danger to the village, perfect example is Sasuke once he found out the truth. I am sure Hashirama would not kill the kids but someone like Danzo and the elders will. Also take note its not those who harmed, who would try to harm, even the attempt is sufficient.
To the Naruto world Itachi was not a murderer, he was a hero that saved Konoha and stopped a world war before it even started.

Stop throwing around the definition of the word murder, everyone knows the difference. You are the one who refuses to consider or even acknowledge the existence of innocent civilians within the Uchiha clan. Again, Itachi may have killed those involved in the coup or those planning it but he murdered the rest. Even what the elders would have done was going to be murder.

I am the only one who looks at this with no bias. You people are not. Did the Uchiha clan consider the innocent civilians that would die by the thousands because they would attack Konoha when they refused all the attempts Sarutobi made for peace? The same village they swore to protect.
The genocide happened when diplomacy failed and they about to attack. What was left was a civil war, world war or wiping out the Uchiha. The choice was made for the lesser evil. A village needs to protect itself.
Its obvious you have never been in a position of power and its a good thing. If you have 3 civilians under you who would kill 1000 if you do not kill them and you do not kill them... Well you are a horrible leader. Those leader need to consider the majority, they need to consider the safety of the village as a hole. Its easy to scream murderer when you do not need to take this actions OR have to sacrifice everything like Itachi did. Yes, I would not be a good leader just as well since I would not sacrifice those people to, think is sometimes thinks can be justifiable when you save lives by taking out the dangerous element.

And wait, are you seriously trying to differentiate between Tobi and Obito as if they are two completely different people? No. Obito was not suffering from MPD... He did not have an alter ego. He made those decisions and even acknowledged doing them. Obito suffered a psychotic episode when he saw Kakashi kill Rin. After that, he made conscious decisions and was aware of what he was doing, who he was and where he was headed. He saw loss and chose to turn that loss into something dark and twisted.

If you did not get what I meant by Obito and Tobi... Tobi was the one who was full of hate the other one full of love who helped people. Think of Vader from SW. After Naruto saved Obito from himself and got him back to the one ready to sacrifice everything for the village he acknowledge him as "the coolest guy" since Naruto and Obito share the same principals and ideals at that point. That is who Obito really was before Madara's manipulation. You really have no clue what manipulation on that level can do to a person at the age Obito was.

 

[Knight of Stalwart Heart]

I alrady gave you plenty of it.

Genocide,No matter what you say,Can never be justified.

 

[Delbi]

And you've come to that conclusion how? You've no idea how or on whom he experimented or based his conclusions. This is absolute nonsense.

You continue to criticism what you perceive to be a conclusion based on limited means, yet these criticisms are based on a narrative you're straight-up making up as you go.

I've come to my conclusion by the simple fact that until the idea of the curse was introduced there is a perfectly reasonable explanation of the behavior of the Uchiha Clan. If we disregard Tobirama's hypothesis, nothing is out of the norm for the Uchiha's given what we know about them, specifically Madara, Obito, and Sasuke and even Indra.

And I'm not making anything up. Everything I've stated has been a fact other than my opinion that Tobirama didn't know what he was talking about. That opinion is based on the facts of the manga and just common sense, that the Uchiha really weren't that different from everyone else in regards to their reactions to trauma, and that they were heavily manipulated to do things throughout their history. You don't need a curse to explain why they did what they did.

I didn't say his experiments were perfect. Ever. Mainly because I don't know his methods. No one here does. And we've little clue to his level of expertise with medical ninjutsu. However, what difference does it make if he wasn't a medical nin. It didn't stop him from creating clones or making immortal zombies. Orochimaru isn't a medical nin, he seems to have done just fine. I haven't seen anyone questioning him.

So if we don't know his methods why do we trust him so much? Simply because he's Tobirama? If we can admit he's biased, admit he isn't a medic-nin, and by his own admissions the curse doesn't apply to all Uchiha's, why do we take him for his word that a curse even exists? With what we know about the manga and it's characters, they are often wrong, very very wrong. Hell, even the great Toad Sage who supposedly could see the future was wrong on multiple occasions. Geniuses like Itachi, Minato, and Kakashi have all been proven wrong before. Why are we treating Tobirama so differently, especially with the Black Zetsu revelation.

And Orochimaru is more or less a medical-nin. His expertise has to do with the human body, biology, cloning, spicing genes, etc makes him highly qualified in ways the Tobirama, who was a ninjutsu expert, is not. Comparing the two of them in the category of medical knowledge is extremely unfair. In any event, Orochimaru proved his superiority to Tobirama in many ways by advancing his own jutsu and using it against him but that has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

It would seem to be quite difficult to criticize something fairly that you admit to not knowing anything about.

And by that same logic it's difficult to take something as fact when we know little to nothing about it and the source of the information is questionable at best. It's especially hard to take what Tobirama says as fact when there's plenty of factors that seem to show that he was wrong with his conclusion, or again, at the very least, his conclusion was based on incomplete and possibly tainted information.

---------- Post added at 02:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:59 PM ----------

Genocide,No matter what you say,Can never be justified.

In most cases, including Itachi killing his entire clan sans Sasuke, you would be correct. But there are no absolutes. The logic behind sacrificing the few to save the many, especially when the few mean to cause massive and possibly irreversible harm is very sound. Is it morally correct to do so? Probably not. But that doesn't mean it isn't logical to do so. Itachi had logic behind his decision, the problem was he just went too far with it when he killed everyone, but he did that so there would be no avengers aside from Sasuke he planned to manipulate and have serve Konoha as a weapon more or less, and as we know that backfired horribly. It also needs to be understood that he didn't just kill everyone to save Konoha and stop a war from happening, he did it to save Sasuke. If he hadn't killed everyone it's very likely Sasuke would have been killed. He made a deal with the Devil essentially when he chose to do what he did.

 

[Impossibility]

I've come to my conclusion by the simple fact that until the idea of the curse was introduced there is a perfectly reasonable explanation of the behavior of the Uchiha Clan. If we disregard Tobirama's hypothesis, nothing is out of the norm for the Uchiha's given what we know about them, specifically Madara, Obito, and Sasuke and even Indra.

Until the idea of the transmigrants, or even Zetsu, was introduced, there was a "perfectly reasonable explanation of the behaviour" of the Uchiha. There isn't even a point here.

And I'm not making anything up. Everything I've stated has been a fact other than my opinion that Tobirama didn't know what he was talking about.

I'm sorry, that's just a blatant lie:

In the entire course of the manga a curse is never not once mentioned until Tobirama mentions it. In fact, his own brother, who has just as much experience as him, wasn't sure to believe him.

Um, Tobi. That Hashirama bit, I'm pretty sure I dealt with another "fact" like than in my last response.

In sum he just did a shitty job testing his hypothesis and let his own bias bring him to the conclusion he wanted,

I would say it was incomplete based on the fact that he only used Madara's body, which was a Kage Bushin.

It's amazing that these are facts when we don't know anything about Tobirama's experiments.

Tobirama was essentially conducting an experiment when he took Madara's body, he had a hypothesis, that something was "wrong" with the Uchiha. His evidence prior to this was that the Uchiha clan when suffering loss awakened the Sharigan and thus went crazy.

It's impressive that you know how Tobirama came to his conclusions without being told or shown....or even hinted.

This is almost Izanagi-level, somehow turning speculation into facts. I imagine it continues below.

That opinion is based on the facts of the manga and just common sense, that the Uchiha really weren't that different from everyone else in regards to their reactions to trauma, and that they were heavily manipulated to do things throughout their history. You don't need a curse to explain why they did what they did.

So everyone else develops a super hax doujutsu in reaction to trauma? And as I said, the same applies to transmigrants or Zetsu, that doesn't change that they exist.

So if we don't know his methods why do we trust him so much? Simply because he's Tobirama? If we can admit he's biased, admit he isn't a medic-nin, and by his own admissions the curse doesn't apply to all Uchiha's, why do we take him for his word that a curse even exists? With what we know about the manga and it's characters, they are often wrong, very very wrong. Hell, even the great Toad Sage who supposedly could see the future was wrong on multiple occasions. Geniuses like Itachi, Minato, and Kakashi have all been proven wrong before. Why are we treating Tobirama so differently, especially with the Black Zetsu revelation.

We pretty much allow for it with everyone else. No one admits that he wasn't a medical-nin, we don't know. And the individuals listed have been wrong, and other characters or the manga let us know. That didn't happen in this case.

And Orochimaru is more or less a medical-nin. His expertise has to do with the human body, biology, cloning, spicing genes, etc makes him highly qualified in ways the Tobirama, who was a ninjutsu expert, is not. Comparing the two of them in the category of medical knowledge is extremely unfair. In any event, Orochimaru proved his superiority to Tobirama in many ways by advancing his own jutsu and using it against him but that has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

More or less a medical-nin? This is just getting ridiculous. Comparing these two in medical knowledge is unfair, yes. However, it isn't for the reason you're suggesting, it's because we don't know Tobirama's level of knowledge. Oro didn't prove his superiority over Tobirama by advancing his jutsu, that's just progress at work. It's the same way Kabuto improved upon Oro's work, or Naruto improved upon Minato's. This line of reasoning is inane.

And by that same logic it's difficult to take something as fact when we know little to nothing about it and the source of the information is questionable at best. It's especially hard to take what Tobirama says as fact when there's plenty of factors that seem to show that he was wrong with his conclusion, or again, at the very least, his conclusion was based on incomplete and possibly tainted information.

And yet we take it every other time... half of what we know about the Naruto universe fits under this umbrella.

 

[Delbi]

Until the idea of the transmigrants, or even Zetsu, was introduced, there was a "perfectly reasonable explanation of the behaviour" of the Uchiha. There isn't even a point here.

The point is the reactions by the Uchiha clan are no different than the reactions by any other ninja. The only difference being is they awaken eye powers via these reactions because they happen to have a Kekkai Genkai that allows it. We later find this Kekkai Genkai comes from an extraterrestrial being (another thing Tobirama knew nothing about) and it explains why they are unique. God forbid we use reasonable explanations like manipulation coupled with PTSD, depression, and psychosis to explain crazy behavior and not a curse.

It's amazing that these are facts when we don't know anything about Tobirama's experiments.
It's impressive that you know how Tobirama came to his conclusions without being told or shown....or even hinted.

And it's amazing you are so adamant on defending them despite knowing nothing about them as well. Excuse me for not believing everything just because one character says it. The fact that all this shit was uncovered after regarding the Uchiha casts a lot of doubt about Tobirama's theory because there were other factors at play. You mean to tell me we shouldn't doubt his experiments at all when we know for a fact that he didn't take into account other variables like Black Zetsu? I don't need to know anything about his experiment to know that if he missed something it could change.

Common sense, and you know science tells us that Tobirama could be very very wrong. Let's have a little school lesson shall we?

Tobirama admitted that not all Uchiha's fell to this "curse". The curse, aka going crazy is our dependent variable. Tobirama said that when the Uchiha lost family members they went nuts. Yet we know plenty of them didn't, specifically Kagami, Shisui and Itachi. So essentially the craziness is attributed to severe loss and trauma, yet not all the Uchiha who suffer from this fall into maddness.

Yet, some of them did. Madara, Obito and Sasuke.

What was different about these two group of Uchiha? On one side we have them suffering, awakening eye powers, yet not going nuts. On the other we have people also suffering and who were also manipulated. Itachi murdered his own mother, if that isn't traumatizing I don't know what is so we can't say he didn't "suffer".

But Itachi didn't have people whispering in his ear making him want revenge or power. These influences are independent variables that influence the results of any experiment that are not present in every case.

Did Tobirama ever take these into account? No, he didn't. So how can we then say his conclusion is correct? These manipulations weren't taken into account and thus whatever research he did, even though we don't know about it, is incomplete because we know he missed something.

So everyone else develops a super hax doujutsu in reaction to trauma? And as I said, the same applies to transmigrants or Zetsu, that doesn't change that they exist.

The Uchiha are unique because of where they come from, just like the Hyuuga who can awaken similar eye powers just under different circumstances.

And yet we take it every other time... half of what we know about the Naruto universe fits under this umbrella.

O please give some examples that are similar to this one, I'd love to hear them.

 

[Impossibility]

The point is the reactions by the Uchiha clan are no different than the reactions by any other ninja. The only difference being is they awaken eye powers via these reactions because they happen to have a Kekkai Genkai that allows it. We later find this Kekkai Genkai comes from an extraterrestrial being (another thing Tobirama knew nothing about) and it explains why they are unique. God forbid we use reasonable explanations like manipulation coupled with PTSD, depression, and psychosis to explain crazy behavior and not a curse.

That seems like a pretty significant difference. Strangely enough, despite your protestations that they were the same, others didn't quite agree. And yes, those are reasonable explanations. And yet, other explanations exist... kindly provided for us by the manga.

And it's amazing you are so adamant on defending them despite knowing nothing about them as well. Excuse me for not believing everything just because one character says it. The fact that all this shit was uncovered after regarding the Uchiha casts a lot of doubt about Tobirama's theory because there were other factors at play. You mean to tell me we shouldn't doubt his experiments at all when we know for a fact that he didn't take into account other variables like Black Zetsu? I don't need to know anything about his experiment to know that if he missed something it could change.

I'm not adamantly defending his methods. I don't actually have anything to defend. I'm just pointing out that your claims about them are utter nonsense. It isn't by chance that you aren't defending them.

Common sense, and you know science tells us that Tobirama could be very very wrong. Let's have a little school lesson shall we?

Tobirama admitted that not all Uchiha's fell to this "curse". The curse, aka going crazy is our dependent variable. Tobirama said that when the Uchiha lost family members they went nuts. Yet we know plenty of them didn't, specifically Kagami, Shisui and Itachi. So essentially the craziness is attributed to severe loss and trauma, yet not all the Uchiha who suffer from this fall into maddness.

Yet, some of them did. Madara, Obito and Sasuke.

What was different about these two group of Uchiha? On one side we have them suffering, awakening eye powers, yet not going nuts. On the other we have people also suffering and who were also manipulated. Itachi murdered his own mother, if that isn't traumatizing I don't know what is so we can't say he didn't "suffer".

But Itachi didn't have people whispering in his ear making him want revenge or power. These influences are independent variables that influence the results of any experiment that are not present in every case.

Did Tobirama ever take these into account? No, he didn't. So how can we then say his conclusion is correct? These manipulations weren't taken into account and thus whatever research he did, even though we don't know about it, is incomplete because we know he missed something.

Firstly, three isn't "plenty". This whole effort fails at the start because of a laughable sample size. And as for whether he took these factors into consideration, of course he didn't, his study finished long before these individuals existed. This line of reasoning is asinine.

The Uchiha are unique because of where they come from, just like the Hyuuga who can awaken similar eye powers just under different circumstances.

They're unique in other ways too, which we already know.

O please give some examples that are similar to this one, I'd love to hear them.

Things that we accept when "we know little to nothing about it and the source of the information is questionable at best". Most of what Black Zetsu said about pretty much anything. Hagoromo's comments on transmigrants. Almost everything on the history of the Uchiha, whether from Madara or Obito, for that matter. A lot about the Cursed Seal. Quite a bit about Oro's experiments and research, the same could be said about Kabuto. To be honest, villains are often very informative.... so questionable sources of information are somewhat abundant. There are any number of nuggets of information that would qualify, it's just that you choose to find this one objectionable.

 

[ninjabot]

You guys know no one is saying Tobirama's word is absolute law, right? We're only saying that of all the instances and evidences we can look to in order to make our cases, Tobirama's is the most reliable as it's the only one from a source who's taken the time to examine the situation.

No one claiming Tobirama's experimentation was mistaken or outright wrong has provided explanation as to how they came to that conclusion outside of "He was biased, therefore his theorem is automatically moot". Taking "his word for it" isn't that big of a deal when literally nothing cancels it out in the canon.

Nor has anyone managed to explain how if Tobirama's talking out of his ass, why his brother felt no need to correct him, even going so far as to validate his claim by reiterating Madara's love for Izuna. Is Hashirama biased against Uchiha too?

The curse exists people. It's nothing as blatant as a voodoo curse that magically makes one evil, but it is a magical genetic defect that makes it easier for them to fall prey to their emotions. And when they fall prey to said emotions they gain more power from them, but that's not what makes them fall further, because the emotions are the catalyst in the first place. The power comes FROM the emotions they feel. They don't DECIDE to be angry and selfish (who the fuck chooses what emotions they have and when they have them, as well as to what degree?), it simply happens.

Now for the question of whether or not it's okay to take his word for it, people will likely say "Well I guess we can take Itachi's word that if he and Kisame fought Jiraiya together they'd both die taking him out, right?" as a counter point to why it's not okay to simply accept what any character says. And the simple answer to such an attempt is "No, because we actually have canon events taking place in the manga to refute such a claim." I'd just show Kisame's level of strength and Itachi's level of strength relative to Jiraiya and the argument is made. However, no one here can point to anything in the manga that decisively proves Tobirama is full of shit, outside of the fact that he's biased. And that means nothing at all, because you CAN NOT prove his bias is responsible for his diagnosis.

No one can. Yes he's biased, but no that doesn't trivialize his findings.

 

[xXan]

Genocide,No matter what you say,Can never be justified.

So easy to throw 1 lines ignoring why it happened. Tell you what. What are you going to choose between this options:

1-You don't kill 10 kids and thousands tie. Those 10 kids are going to die a few days later anyway.
2-You kill those 10 kids and thousands live(including kids).

So what is your choice? Would someone picking choice 1 commit genocide(you can throw more people in) or save lives? I can understand you not having the resolve to kill 10 kids but if one does and kills them would he be saving lives or commit murder killing those 10 kids that would die days later anyway.
As Delbi said, sacrificing the few to save the many is an old logical approach. If humanity would be faced with extinction and you would have to kill all aside for just enough to start over nobody would think twice in doing so.
Itachi had to choose between killing his clan that would be wiped out anyway and killing his clan, save Sasuke's life and his, save the deaths on the other side (Konoha) and the lives lost in the following world war.

@Delbi

In most cases, including Itachi killing his entire clan sans Sasuke, you would be correct. But there are no absolutes. The logic behind sacrificing the few to save the many, especially when the few mean to cause massive and possibly irreversible harm is very sound. Is it morally correct to do so? Probably not. But that doesn't mean it isn't logical to do so. Itachi had logic behind his decision, the problem was he just went too far with it when he killed everyone, but he did that so there would be no avengers aside from Sasuke he planned to manipulate and have serve Konoha as a weapon more or less, and as we know that backfired horribly. It also needs to be understood that he didn't just kill everyone to save Konoha and stop a war from happening, he did it to save Sasuke. If he hadn't killed everyone it's very likely Sasuke would have been killed. He made a deal with the Devil essentially when he chose to do what he did.

Actually he did no go to far. His mission and deal was to kill everybody aside for Sasuke. Danzo and the elders would have killed them anyway. Even Sasuke and Itachi had to beg Sarutobi for protection and to threaten Danzo to not kill him. Itachi could manipulate Sasuke with his lie but many more then that? I don't think so and they would be killed off anyway.

---------- Post added at 12:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 PM ----------

You guys know no one is saying Tobirama's word is absolute law, right? We're only saying that of all the instances and evidences we can look to in order to make our cases, Tobirama's is the most reliable as it's the only one from a source who's taken the time to examine the situation.

No one claiming Tobirama's experimentation was mistaken or outright wrong has provided explanation as to how they came to that conclusion outside of "He was biased, therefore his theorem is automatically moot". Taking "his word for it" isn't that big of a deal when literally nothing cancels it out in the canon.

Nor has anyone managed to explain how if Tobirama's talking out of his ass, why his brother felt no need to correct him, even going so far as to validate his claim by reiterating Madara's love for Izuna. Is Hashirama biased against Uchiha too?

The curse exists people. It's nothing as blatant as a voodoo curse that magically makes one evil, but it is a magical genetic defect that makes it easier for them to fall prey to their emotions. And when they fall prey to said emotions they gain more power from them, but that's not what makes them fall further, because the emotions are the catalyst in the first place. The power comes FROM the emotions they feel. They don't DECIDE to be angry and selfish (who the fuck chooses what emotions they have and when they have them, as well as to what degree?), it simply happens.

Now for the question of whether or not it's okay to take his word for it, people will likely say "Well I guess we can take Itachi's word that if he and Kisame fought Jiraiya together they'd both die taking him out, right?" as a counter point to why it's not okay to simply accept what any character says. And the simple answer to such an attempt is "No, because we actually have canon events taking place in the manga to refute such a claim." I'd just show Kisame's level of strength and Itachi's level of strength relative to Jiraiya and the argument is made. However, no one here can point to anything in the manga that decisively proves Tobirama is full of shit, outside of the fact that he's biased. And that means nothing at all, because you CAN NOT prove his bias is responsible for his diagnosis.

No one can. Yes he's biased, but no that doesn't trivialize his findings.

I guess the Uchiha should go the Vulncans route, if only they could find Spock.

 

[M3J]

Itachi is certainly given a pass, but nothing he did has anything to do with the curse Tobirama described. Itachi never went mad. When he was fighting Sasuke he acted "crazy" to make Sasuke kill him, but he himself was entirely rational and never crazy with anything he did.

He never threatened the entirety of Konoha if Danzou went after Sasuke. He threatened Danzou. From what I understood he was either going to out him to the village for being a shady bastard or he was going to just outright kill him himself. Realistically, neither of those scenarios would have lead to Konoha's downfall, not to mention he probably realized that Danzou wasn't foolish enough to cross him anyway so it wouldn't have mattered.

I thought Itachi or Tobi said that if Sasuke was killed, Itachi would leak Konoha's secrets to enemies, which would put Konoha in danger. He wouldn't do anything directly to Konoha, though.

I'm not sure if Tobi was lying or not, if he did say it.

I quoted your last post:



It's right there in the middle of the sentence. So yes, you said that Itachi never chose murder, mere sentences after accusing Tobirama of murdering Uchiha to make them crazy.....somehow forgetting the fact that Itachi murdered his entire clan, with the one exception going a bit crazy for a stretch. No need for ridiculous speculation there.

Shitty wording, my bad.

I'm talking about murder out of revenge. Itachi murdered his clan not because he was crazy or insane, but because he wanted to protect Konoha and Sasuke. Who else did he murder after that? He seems to have spared Kakashi, refused to fight with the other jounin although they were coming at him, and chose to run away from Jiraiya rather than use genjutsu or whatever else on him. Where did he attempt revenge or dive into the darkness for vengeance or murder?

There's no ridiculous speculation, given what we know of Tobirama. Chances are, the only reason Uchiha survived as long as they did was because Tobirama was smart enough to make use of their power.

The 2 points you raised don't have any "stain" on Itachi's status as "good guy". One was just a threat aimed at protecting his brother and NOT vengeance or even an evil act. It was a threat that I am ready to bet money would not be carried out or even end there since Danzo is not that stupid. The second one is practically nonsense. I don't remember having the entire population of Konoha on one side and Sasuke on the other and deciding to kill Konoha to save his brother. All Itachi did was ALLOW his brother to live. That is after he already sacrificed his entire clan, mother and father. NOTHING was found inferior for allowing his brother to live. I fail to see how him not having the strength to kill even his little brother after killing his entire clan and family for KONOHA lead to his status being less "good". How much more to those people deserve from him? Even after he was resurrected from death he STILL PROTECTED THEM.

Genocide was about to happen any way you slice it. The only difference is that if Itachi would not have done this the "genocide" would have been exponentially bigger then what it was. He had the choice of killing the clan and saving his brother and everybody else OR allow it to happen and his clan be killed anyway, death on Konoha's side for obvious reasons AND probably starting a world war. He choose the lesser of 2 evils, I don't agree with what he choose but his choice was done to save people after he exhausted all alternatives to stop his clan from this madness. He chose hate over love and accepted the village's hate when he saved them.

Also he was pissed at his clan, true, because of them his best friend died and he was forced into this mess. Also and for what? Their greed for power? That is what killed them, their greed for power and NOT Itachi.

I would not do or agree in someone doing what he did. I also don't agree on genocide no matter what the situation is. On the other hand what he did was acceptable by the standards of the village and the ninja world he lived in, his actions also saved lives overall.

---------- Post added at 06:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:40 PM ----------



Let me ask you something, is a cop shooting a criminal down to save lives a murderer? Is the state a "murderer" by killing a criminal? Think carefully before answering. Of course the morally can shift from person to person but to call him a murderer... Its hard considering why he did it. The Uchiha were dead anyway, all he did was to save more lives that they would kill or lead to death. If he would have told the truth of why he did it the village or Sarutobi would not even banish him from the village or have any negative reaction over him. He choose to flee for his brother and the clans reputation. Danzo was the one who made everything possible and what did he get from Sarutobi? Nothing aside for losing root.
The Uchiha's greed for power got them killed, Itachi was forced to kill them after exhausting any alternatives because if not they would die anyway in the coming civil war and cause a ton of deaths on the other side just as well, not even going into the world war that was to come.

Genocide from who? It's not like the Uchiha planned on killing the entire village, they just wanted to wrest power away from the power hungry elders.

But Itachi himself confessed he didn't do everything he could have done to prevent the whole thing. He murdered everyone, even if he did it so kids wouldn't grow up to seek vengeance from Konoha. Itachi says if he trusted Sasuke, the massacre could have been prevented. Sure, Itachi did it for the greater good, but murder is still murder. He is just as every bit guilty as Danzou.

It should be a stain given what we know now, even if he was blackmailed into killing the Uchiha ASAP.

If the Sharingan is connected to strong emotions (usually negative ones it seems?) then I could see that possibly leading to an addiction to negative emotions for more power. The emotions are rewarded, creating some sort of behavioural pattern, no?

I do believe Tobirama's theory to some extent, but still, the Uchiha were segregated and treated poorly in other ways. Because of him, ironically. So yeah he's biased, but not 100% wrong I would say.

Unless you mean by the elders, I don't see how the Uchiha were treated poorly by the villagers given the amount of praise they got. Uchihas were seen as elite and had every bit of respect from the villagers, it was just the elders and Tobirama that were messed up.

I'm sure no one had an addiction to negative emotions for more power, except for maybe Madara. And even then, he wasn't about destruction until he overheard Tobirama.

You guys know no one is saying Tobirama's word is absolute law, right? We're only saying that of all the instances and evidences we can look to in order to make our cases, Tobirama's is the most reliable as it's the only one from a source who's taken the time to examine the situation.

No one claiming Tobirama's experimentation was mistaken or outright wrong has provided explanation as to how they came to that conclusion outside of "He was biased, therefore his theorem is automatically moot". Taking "his word for it" isn't that big of a deal when literally nothing cancels it out in the canon.

Nor has anyone managed to explain how if Tobirama's talking out of his ass, why his brother felt no need to correct him, even going so far as to validate his claim by reiterating Madara's love for Izuna. Is Hashirama biased against Uchiha too?

The curse exists people. It's nothing as blatant as a voodoo curse that magically makes one evil, but it is a magical genetic defect that makes it easier for them to fall prey to their emotions. And when they fall prey to said emotions they gain more power from them, but that's not what makes them fall further, because the emotions are the catalyst in the first place. The power comes FROM the emotions they feel. They don't DECIDE to be angry and selfish (who the fuck chooses what emotions they have and when they have them, as well as to what degree?), it simply happens.

Now for the question of whether or not it's okay to take his word for it, people will likely say "Well I guess we can take Itachi's word that if he and Kisame fought Jiraiya together they'd both die taking him out, right?" as a counter point to why it's not okay to simply accept what any character says. And the simple answer to such an attempt is "No, because we actually have canon events taking place in the manga to refute such a claim." I'd just show Kisame's level of strength and Itachi's level of strength relative to Jiraiya and the argument is made. However, no one here can point to anything in the manga that decisively proves Tobirama is full of shit, outside of the fact that he's biased. And that means nothing at all, because you CAN NOT prove his bias is responsible for his diagnosis.

No one can. Yes he's biased, but no that doesn't trivialize his findings.

What evidence do you have that's not words? Do you have evidence of at least two Uchiha going crazy after losing the person they love? We've been introduced to about 7 or 8 Uchiha and had over 10+ Uchiha brought up even if in just a panel, and no Uchiha was mentioned to have gone crazy. We even have evidence that proves Tobirama wrong.

Madara lost his brothers, and even after he lost his last brother, Madara did not go crazy. Itachi did not go crazy or become mentally unstable when he found out he had to kill the Uchiha and was blackmailed into doing so. Sasuke didn't go crazy or completely crazy after he lost his family and realized the truth behind Itachi's actions.

 

[ninjabot]

What evidence do you have that's not words? Do you have evidence of at least two Uchiha going crazy after losing the person they love? We've been introduced to about 7 or 8 Uchiha and had over 10+ Uchiha brought up even if in just a panel, and no Uchiha was mentioned to have gone crazy. We even have evidence that proves Tobirama wrong.

Itachi didn't come to the conclusion that mass genocide was a good idea until he lost his beloved best friend. He had access to his second eye, his Kotoamatsukami could've done the same feat that the one Danzo stole would've had.

Sasuke didn't decide to kill the elders until he lost the last person in his family that cared about him...and then later deduced that killing the innocent Konoha citizens for no reason whatsoever was justified (crazy, lol)... THEN decided to become the immortal avatar of hatred that unifies the entire planet against him. So yeah, Sasuke did become crazy after losing Itachi and it got worse the more his Sharingan evolved.

Obito completely threw away his bonds/ties to Konoha after losing his love interest, agreeing that the only way to ever gain happiness again is to devote himself to batshit crazy Madara's Mugen Tsukuyomi plan. He was prepared to murder a newborn baby to achieve these goals. His actions resulted in the murder of his teacher and attempted murder of his only friend and rival Kakashi amongst all the other innocents.

Then there's the "countless others" Tobirama mentions in his proclaimation. Admittedly he doesn't say they instantly go crazy, but he did explain their fall into despair. There are varying levels of insanity.

Madara lost his brothers, and even after he lost his last brother,

He didn't have his Sharingan until later. Coincidence? Nope. It's also pretty different in his situation when you consider that living in a time of war prepares you for loss a lot better. Madara losing his brothers wouldn't have the same effect as Sasuke losing his family or Obito losing Rin.

 

[Impossibility]

I'm talking about murder out of revenge. Itachi murdered his clan not because he was crazy or insane, but because he wanted to protect Konoha and Sasuke. Who else did he murder after that? He seems to have spared Kakashi, refused to fight with the other jounin although they were coming at him, and chose to run away from Jiraiya rather than use genjutsu or whatever else on him. Where did he attempt revenge or dive into the darkness for vengeance or murder?

I don't dispute any of this about revenge, that wasn't my point. I just thought it was laughable how you accused Tobirama, baselessly, of committing an act that Itachi, as a matter of fact, had committed on a grander scale and then went on to portray Itachi in the manner you did. You seem to have finally corrected it, so that's that.

There's no ridiculous speculation, given what we know of Tobirama. Chances are, the only reason Uchiha survived as long as they did was because Tobirama was smart enough to make use of their power.

It isn't ridiculous to think that Tobirama was offing Uchiha Clan members while serving as Hokage just to make a few of them go crazy? Or was it while Hashirama was Hokage? Saying it once was ridiculous, repeating and defending it says pretty much eliminates any credibility you could possibly attempt to muster in this discussion.

 

[Delbi]

Firstly, three isn't "plenty". This whole effort fails at the start because of a laughable sample size. And as for whether he took these factors into consideration, of course he didn't, his study finished long before these individuals existed. This line of reasoning is asinine.

Except we have the entirety of the Uchiha clan around the time of Konoha's creation, who had suffered immensely, using reason and siding with Hashirama over Madara and calling for peace. Think that goes to prove quite the opposite of what Tobirama was talking about. I think it's also safe to assume quite a few of them had the Sharigan. Or is that an assumption we can't make according to you?

And the line of reasoning isn't asinine, it goes to show that his study was out-dated and incomplete, which again, is why I criticize it so much.

 

[Impossibility]

Except we have the entirety of the Uchiha clan around the time of Konoha's creation, who had suffered immensely, using reason and siding with Hashirama over Madara and calling for peace. Think that goes to prove quite the opposite of what Tobirama was talking about. I think it's also safe to assume quite a few of them had the Sharigan. Or is that an assumption we can't make according to you?

And the line of reasoning isn't asinine, it goes to show that his study was out-dated and incomplete, which again, is why I criticize it so much.

Firstly, most of the Uchiha don't awaken the Sharingan, so speaking of the entirety of the clan is a meaningless starting point. Secondly, who knows what the remaining Sharingan users thought, or even how many were left, for that matter. Thirdly, the Uchiha sided with Hashirama for the sake of their own survival, they were losing, it wasn't some sudden turn to pacifism. Lastly, if this did indicate such a thing, Hashirama or Oro, only too willing to contradict Tobirama, would've been more than happy to point it out, instead Hashirama only added to the theory with his anecdote about Madara. And the line of reasoning is asinine, you're pointing to specific factors for a specific few individuals outside of Tobirama's experimentation and declaring that his failure to consider these specific individuals and their factors somehow discredits his experiment, that's nonsensical. One, you don't know the method of his experiment, so it's pointless. Two, you clearly don't understand the concept of sampling.

 

[Holt]

The curse exists people. It's nothing as blatant as a voodoo curse that magically makes one evil, but it is a magical genetic defect that makes it easier for them to fall prey to their emotions. And when they fall prey to said emotions they gain more power from them, but that's not what makes them fall further, because the emotions are the catalyst in the first place. The power comes FROM the emotions they feel. They don't DECIDE to be angry and selfish (who the fuck chooses what emotions they have and when they have them, as well as to what degree?), it simply happens.

You skipped the part where people were actively manipulating those you mentioned. Easier to fall prey to their emotions? For starters, these are people that have gone through immense trauma. It's one thing to just lose family/ loved ones to natural causes, however, them getting killed is a whole other story. When that happens, people become very vulnerable and there were others waiting to take advantage of the situation. They don't decide to be angry? Of course not, but the situation makes them angry. Do you recall any uchiha simply being angry without reason? If you lose your younger brother in a war, or watch a friend kill the girl you love (whom said friend promised to protect) or you watch your brother murder your entire clan (parents included) or later find out said brother was pushed by an asshole to do the same thing, who the hell wouldn't be angry? Or even a father deciding that your younger brother is the better one to entrust the future to.

See it's pretty natural to feel angry at such things. In the Uchiha's case, this anger gives them power but do remember that the real trigger here is the trauma they face.
Tobirama himself started his analysis and explanation from the point when Uchiha face trauma. Note that he mentioned that first before talking about how the sharingan emerges, because that comes after. What a curse would do is doom the uchiha to face such trauma so they lose themselves but that's not what happens. From Tobirama's explanation, the curse is what uses their emotional state as a medium to grant them power. How can the curse affect their mentality when the curse doesn't even come about until they face trauma? Furthermore, the reason why only few people keep falling so far is because someone is on the sidelines manipulating them. It was canon that very few uchiha ever achieved the mangekyou. The mangekyou points directly to how much emotional strain they've gone through. If the curse was so real, why can we count how many uchiha achieved the mangekyou on our hands?

This is precisely why Tobirama's hypothesis is questionable. He claims to have done experiments on the uchiha, however, we know that the best subject for this particular experiment in regards to the sharingan or a curse would be one possessing the MS. In his time, it was only Madara. Hashirama didn't refute his claims but do recall that the Uchiha they were speaking about was Madara. What he knows is that the emotional states of the uchiha brings about the sharingan. This has already been proven to be achieved via positive emotions as well. For him to have made any other progress, then he would have needed to work on the MS. With only Madara as a test subject (and a fake by the way), he reached a conclusion that frankly cannot be fully trusted. Also, we are to believe a freaking Hokage was conducting experiments on members of Konoha's co-founder clan? A clan as renowned as them? I'm not really going to dive into how ridiculous this sounds but yeah it's sounds silly. Something like this is practically impossible to hide from others and if he managed to siphon enough uchiha for experiments, then more fuel to the fire he was brewing at the uchiha camp.

Now taking into account all we know, the uchiha's emotions grants them powers depending on how strong said emotions are. Tobirama concluded that this was a curse since negative emotions were involved. He himself also states that he knows people who weren't affected by this curse. He also made sure to state that none of this even begins until the uchiha face loss. His own knowledge ends here as he wasn't aware of other factors. Now we know that those who were most affected by this 'curse' are those who achieved the mangekyou. On one hand, we know of itachi who never went insane like the curse (according to Tobirama) dictates, there's Shisui as well. On the other hand, we know that those who went insane were actively manipulated by others after undergoing more trauma than others faced. For all Tobirama's talk of a curse, the uchiha never reacted to the maltreatment faced at the hands of him and his ideals. Despite being pushed to the wall constantly, they did not to take any action until serveral decades after Tobirama had died and this was because they had all but been evicted from the village both in political dealings or social standing or even their location. They were pushed to the very limit. Do recall also that it was at this point that the uchiha concluded that Madara had always been right and they would never be accepted.

Considering all this, I fail to see how this can be attributed to a curse. The only basis for labeling this a curse would be the fact that the uchiha grow in power via negative emotions but there is proof that these powers can be attained by positive emotions as well. The curse does not affect their state of mind and if you claim it does, I would like an explanation for how the entire uchiha clan endured maltreatment for decades without taking any action. As for being angry, like I said, when life keeps throwing shitty things at you, you're bound to be angry and be emotionally negative. This is a fact whether in real life or fiction and regardless of one being uchiha or not. Being angry also makes one more prone to take questionable decisions/actions. Throw in someone skillfully manipulating them in the equation and everything is logically explained without attributing it to a curse.

Note that I didn't say this curse doesn't exist, just that your interpretation of the curse as something that affects their mentality and pushes them to take irrational decisions is invalid.

 

[ninjabot]

You skipped the part where people were actively manipulating those you mentioned.

Because that's neither here nor there. It's not like they forced them to go crazy. They aren't manipulating normal people, they're manipulating people that have a harder time maintaining control over their emotions, thus, making it especially easy to guide them in the direction they wish thanks to exploiting said emotions.

Much like with the point that Black Zetsu manipulated the Uchiha history we have to accept that the curse is what makes them so easily manipulated in the first place. It's easy to point someone at a target and convince them to attack them when their ability to fight through their emotions and use reason instead is... inferior.

 

[Exodi]

It's easy to point someone at a target and convince them to attack them when their ability to fight through their emotions and use reason instead is... inferior.

LOL.

You sound like Tobirama.

 

[Holt]

Because that's neither here nor there. It's not like they forced them to go crazy. They aren't manipulating normal people, they're manipulating people that have a harder time maintaining control over their emotions, thus, making it especially easy to guide them in the direction they wish thanks to exploiting said emotions.

Of course they didn't. I never said they made them go crazy. They exploited people who were very vulnerable due to trauma they faced. People having a hard time controlling their emotions? Please, point me to where that was established. It's not like it was easy to manipulate these people either. They were made to believe that there was merit to their actions. That's precisely why it's called manipulation.

Much like with the point that Black Zetsu manipulated the Uchiha history we have to accept that the curse is what makes them so easily manipulated in the first place. It's easy to point someone at a target and convince them to attack them when their ability to fight through their emotions and use reason instead is... inferior.

Perfect. We're finally making headway. The bolded is the issue. It's fine if you want to believe the curse is the reason for that but don't paint it as fact stated in the manga. Also BZ clearly stated he approached both Senju and Uchiha.

 

[Delbi]

Firstly, most of the Uchiha don't awaken the Sharingan, so speaking of the entirety of the clan is a meaningless starting point. Secondly, who knows what the remaining Sharingan users thought, or even how many were left, for that matter. Thirdly, the Uchiha sided with Hashirama for the sake of their own survival, they were losing, it wasn't some sudden turn to pacifism. Lastly, if this did indicate such a thing, Hashirama or Oro, only too willing to contradict Tobirama, would've been more than happy to point it out, instead Hashirama only added to the theory with his anecdote about Madara. And the line of reasoning is asinine, you're pointing to specific factors for a specific few individuals outside of Tobirama's experimentation and declaring that his failure to consider these specific individuals and their factors somehow discredits his experiment, that's nonsensical. One, you don't know the method of his experiment, so it's pointless. Two, you clearly don't understand the concept of sampling.

1. We have seen and know of more Uchiha who have awakened the Sharigan than those who have not. Almost every named Uchiha in the manga has a Sharigan, with panels of groups of nameless Uchiha showing in during the waring states period (the same period Tobirama claims they all were going crazy).

2. If they sided with Hashirama for their own survival it shows they were thinking rationally and weren't crazy like Tobirama claimed they were. This goes directly against the claims that Tobirama was making.

3. These specific instances aren't mere outliers. We know of 3 confirmed Uchiha's who went crazy, and all three of them regaining their sanity at one point or another. We also know of 3 who didn't go crazy despite suffering. Tobirama's vague response that "I've seen this countless times" doesn't hold water, again, with the entire clan minus Madara siding with Hashirama. Then we have no known instances of insanity sans Obito and Sasuke (both of who regained control, and both of whom were traumatized and heavily manipulated).

The manga has given us enough reason to be think that Tobirama was simply wrong. The only reasons anyone can give to believe him so far is "because he's Tobirama". The same argument against me not knowing his methods works both ways. How can we support his conclusions if we have no idea how he came to them?

The "curse" he said turned the Uchiha into mindless savages hell bent on revenge who were too narrow minded to see things through logically. Yet, the Uchiha clan was never truly narrow minded as a whole, and only a select few of them ever fell so far into hatred that they caused massive harm. We also know that Black Zetsu solely responsible for tempting Indra and starting the whole concept of hatred vs. love between the Uchiha and Senju clan.

You could point out that Fugaku and his allies in the Uchiha clan were narrow minded but their concerns for their clan were actually justified via Tobirama's own discrimination against them and Danzou's wish to destroy them outright.

And yes, I do understand the concept of sampling. If Kagami, Shisui and Itachi are all outliers, then so are Madara, Obito and Sasuke. Without having actual examples of other people going crazy then Tobirama's words are nothing but hearsay. Because in his bias he could have failed to possibly see his own clan mates suffering the same fate, and he seemed to ignore the entire Uchiha clan siding with his brother over Madara.

 

[Impossibility]

It's fine if you want to believe the curse is the reason for that but don't paint it as fact stated in the manga.

Here's the issue. Tobirama stated it as fact. Just as the existence of the transmigrants was stated as fact. The Hokages were brought back for the expressed purpose of providing clarification and background, they provided it. Hashirama provided his past with Madara, Sarutobi provided further backstory on Itachi, Tobirama explained an aspect of the Uchiha Clan. They gave us a brain backdrop, the manga's way of indicating sciecnce . When he provided it, Hashirama even added an anecdote to follow it up. There wasn't a shred of doubt expressed. It remained unchallenged for the entirety of the manga. The name of the chapter was indicative of it, despite the explanation only taking up two pages. In the course of the manga, it's just another detail. Somehow what seems to be lost in this is that arguing against the curse is contradicting what the manga left us with. And the only argument for that is that Tobirama didn't like the Uchiha, over and over again, in so many ways. And that just doesn't cut it.