For the first point. It didn't? The bonding of the Uchiha and Senju caused the villages to spur into action and quite literally started the first great Shinobi war. And the First Hokage and Second Hokage died as a result.
What ended was the Warring states period, which was chaos because it was every clan for themselves. Then after the Uchiha and the Senju bonded, other clans took notice and merged as well. This then escalated from random skirmishes between various clans that had nothing to do with each other into organised military warfare. Hashirama tried to fix this by giving out the tailed beasts as balancing tools.. but that didn't end well for him at all.
And you took my statement out of context. I specifically said the act of making two enemies live together only months after conflict wasn't a good idea. I never said the Truce wasn't a good idea.
He could've let them desegregate or get to mix themselves at a slower pace. And he should've known that pushing them in close proximity when both sides still had fresh gripes... would bring out the claws in both parties. At the very least, he should've known that the current generation would be hard grained with harsh ideals towards one another (Tobirama is a prime example). His sheer optimism is what i was saying doesn't fly.
Yes eventually there was a first shinobi war, however, before that it was an everyday war is it was a vastly improved situation however you look at it and at least people became ninja by choice thanks to the village system prior to that, there was no choice. It was kill or be killed.
Well, it was a mutual decision. Hashirama couldn't have forced the uchiha to co-exist with senju even if he wanted to. Both clans were ok with living together so there was no issue. I also said that things were actually fine between them but Tobirama kept clearly segregating uchiha which ultimately led to unrest and an attempt at retaliation since the agreement was supposed to be equality and not subjugation.
Secondly, i find the cave in point valid.
But again, it was a very loose 'mistake'. I just find it funny because Orochimaru was 'active' around this time. I recall the Third Hokage catching him doing human experiments during his term in office, and as a result they tried their best to keep Kekkai genkai genetics from floating around in the world. That's why there were efforts to recover some of the bodies of key shinobi to save their DNA from Oro/anyone else... In the end they failed because they got all the samples they needed anyway... but with Oro obsessed over Kekkai genkai and the sharingan in particular you'd expect someone to connect the dots and make some type of recovery effort.
Well that can only go so far considering the body was supposed to be completely crushed and destroyed. Besides, it was a war and thousands of people died. They couldn't have been skimming around for a piece or two especially in cases where the body was supposed to be destroyed.
Whether or not Naruto could fundamentally give Kakashi a Sharingan is questionable, specially since he used Kakashi's DNA, that's granted. But there wasn't exactly a shortage of Obito's chakra/blood on the battle field. He could've used a 'piece' of Obito just as easily. But again, questionable i'll agree with you. But i don't think it was impossible, since Obito converted both Kakashi's eyes into Sharingan, there must be something fundamentally doable for something like that to occur.
Well actually he can't. Kakashi simply doesn't have it in his genes so Naruto would be working with nothing. It's practically bringing a Sharingan from nothingness. It would have been a ridiculous ass pull with zero explanation. Every other case has logical explanations even though a bit extreme in some cases. This would have been too much especially since Naruto didn't have something Sharingan related to work with.
Kakashi didn't have anything obito related though. The only thing he had were the eyes which were taken at the time. What obito did is still very logical. He briefly transferred his soul or whatever to Kakashi hence why the latter could use Sharingan. A similar example would be the edo tensei Justu. Normal bodies are used as base for the revived shinobi but their soul is binded to a living vessel hence the vessel adopts properties of the soul and can utilize their abilities. You could say Obito used a less permanent version of this and it was possible since he had remnants of rikudo power.
The thing is, there seemed to be no bad blood between the two clans, we saw them getting along and the losing side voting for the single reason for their losses as the hokage, while turning their backs on their savior. There was nothing wrong with how Hashirama did things, neither side had any claws, not even Madara.
It was Tobirama that was the problem with the shit he said. Even Madara was willing to get past Tobirama killing his only brother until he thought Tobirama was planning to reduce the Uchiha to lapdogs or annihilate them when he became hokage.
Well the manga made it clear when Oro was 'interviewing' the Second hokage that the Senju and the Uchiha never got along (as an entirety, not on a case to case basis). According to the First admittingly failing at making peace and the 1-3rd's testimony about the question if sasuke should help or hurt the situation, the clans never got along entirely. Yes there was no issues that demanded blood... but they weren't happy neighbors.
Link 1
The Uchiha never really got along with the Senju, it was skeptism on both sides.
Link 2
The Second admitting (With the First Hokage unable to dispute his point) that the Senju and Uchiha never really got along, they were always at each other's throats.
Link 3
Just a flavor link, hard to consider factual when you consider the speaker. But apparently the Uchiha had a way of disrupting the village.
They 'got' along as far as no blood shed went... But they weren't estactic to be working together. Maybe happy as in: I don't have to risk losing family anymore, but certainly not actually happy.
Again even the first hokage submits to Tobirama calling him Naive for forcing them to live together so quickly... (or at all in Tobirama's head) and even the first hokage pouted in silent admittance that maybe it wasn't a good idea. So I'm not just pulling this out of thin air. Even the first 3 hokages questioned the logic in retrospect.
Yes eventually there was a first shinobi war, however, before that it was an everyday war is it was a vastly improved situation however you look at it and at least people became ninja by choice thanks to the village system prior to that, there was no choice. It was kill or be killed.
Again, that's debatable. I mean a war where multiple clans ban together... with newly acquired Tailed beasts and refined Kekkai genkai knowledge, viaing for domination? Before they fought for territory and because they were hired to do so. But during the war, they fought with the intention of beating the other person and taking their tailed beast... I don't know, i just tend to think a war with complete domination in mind would yield more violence and casualties... rather than one that's just trying to hold their respect and their paychecks intact.
Well that can only go so far considering the body was supposed to be completely crushed and destroyed. Besides, it was a war and thousands of people died. They couldn't have been skimming around for a piece or two especially in cases where the body was supposed to be destroyed.
But it wasn't 1 of 1000s of people. It was Obito. Even Naruto's mother thought of him as a son before Naruto was even a thought in her head. She even said she 'dreamed of him' or he was included in her dream of the future or something to that effect.
He was one of Minato's only apprentices and lastly he was an Uchiha... the clan that Orochimaru foamed at the mouth over getting genetic samples of the most. Even if not for war time strategy, it'd make sense for Minato to recover the body for more ethical reasons...
No matter what it just makes sense that he'd try. Obviously he didn't and it's all good and well... no ruffled feathers. I just don't think my logic in thinking that he could've made the effort is flawed when you consider all those points.
Well actually he can't. Kakashi simply doesn't have it in his genes so Naruto would be working with nothing. It's practically bringing a Sharingan from nothingness. It would have been a ridiculous ass pull with zero explanation. Every other case has logical explanations even though a bit extreme in some cases. This would have been too much especially since Naruto didn't have something Sharingan related to work with.
Kakashi didn't have anything obito related though. The only thing he had were the eyes which were taken at the time. What obito did is still very logical. He briefly transferred his soul or whatever to Kakashi hence why the latter could use Sharingan. A similar example would be the edo tensei Justu. Normal bodies are used as base for the revived shinobi but their soul is binded to a living vessel hence the vessel adopts properties of the soul and can utilize their abilities. You could say Obito used a less permanent version of this and it was possible since he had remnants of rikudo power.
Again, because i think either I'm screwing up the phrasing or something, you don't get what i was trying to say. Naruto 'giving' him the Sharingan was just a reference to him finding something of Obitos and recreating the eye. I'm saying he could've recreated the eye with obito bits and ends... and gave it to Kakashi. Give Kakashi the Sharingan. I'm not saying make Obito's eye from Kakashi's DNA. That's not it at all.
is It possible?.. Yes! Hashirama's Kekkai genkai (which is more rare than the sharingan) is creatable, even if you can't make artificial life with it.. the manga has shown that you can take the cells to arm the receiver with the Kekkai genkai... And we've seen of instances of sharingan eyes being able to be cloned (Shin army).
And there was no shortage of Obitos blood on the battlefield. Or even towards the end when Kakashi went blind and 'presumably' Naruto recreated his eyes. Again, Obitos chakra in some compacity was probably still existent in Kakashi, or at the very least the pile of ruin that used to be Obito would've been a valid DNA source..
I mean if Tsunade can use medical ninjutsu + Orochimarus tactics to accurately recreate Hashirama's arm which undoubtedly has his Kekkai genkai stored into it. Naruto recreating the eye is only limited in the logic of: It didn't come to mind. Obito's blood/DNA would've made Obito's sharingan... there is no quellps about that, and Kakashi is already shown to be able to use Sharingan so it's not like we face the logic of it rejecting him. And Obito literally was reduced to a pile of ash. That seems like a pretty DNA rich setting to me.
It's anime, not sure if I can take what they say seriously..... I don't see why Danzou would go to the council either, it'd kill the whole reason for Root. They weren't answerable to anyone but Danzou himself, who operated under Hiruzen's nose as Hiruzen had to keep the good image.
Root only answers to Danzou, but Danzou was never completely independent since there is a ruling body not only in Konoha, but in the Fire country. Konoha could not go against the interests of the country, it can go just up to a point where the Daymio and his advisors have to be included in the decision process.
Inside Konoha it works more or less the same way, we know that the Hokage have the same roles of military commander and a sort of mayor\governor, but we also know from manga, novels and anime that the jounin council assumes if the Hokage isn't in position to take decisions and it's head is the second in the line of succession until a new Hokage is selected, we also know that there's the elders' council with the Hokage, his two advisors and the head of Root (and the novels imply that the head of the jounin council sometimes participates too, but not always).
So as far as we know Root is an independent agency with a lot of Freedom that Danzou used to try to get more power, in the anime he goes as far as stage various assassination attempts against Hiruzen with root agents under disguise to blame other villages. After Kyuubi's invation, Hiruzen noticing Danzou's interest in Kakashi encourages him to accept Danzou's invitation to become part of Root so he can act as his spy on Root, at some point in the timeline Hiruzen decided to intervene and basically went with his Anbu to "deal" with Danzou, from this, Danzou discovered that Hiruzen had enough evidence to sentence him to treason (punished by death), but he said that that would not be the best course of action, instead choose to spare Danzou under the condition that Root would have their freedom limited, but still freedom enough to fulfill his role but not freedom enough to plot against the Hokage office or take actions like the Uchiha Massacre or Allowing Orochimaru to experiment on Hashirama's cells.
Sincerely, though I understand that most people here are hard core manga canon vigilantes, sincerely, to me I really don't mind that much about it as most here, unless other media, like databooks, novels, anime and video-games clearly and irremediably contradicts the manga, they are part of the Naruto's "Expanded Universe" and a lot of these other media have shown things that makes the manga make more sense. Like the video-games showing how Akatsuki was formed and the members recruited, or a lot of these flashback or expanded story arcs like Guy's, Obito's, the Chuunin Exam where the rest of Konoha 11 (except for Naruto and Sasuke) became Chuunin, the origins of Yamato, how Kakashi became ANBU and how he became Yamato and Itachi's sempai, the brief one dealing with Itachi's time as ANBU too.
None of these things really contradicts the manga, and adds way more depth to the story, so at least to me I can take them seriously, and tough I don't really support the more radical idea that only the manga can be trusted (given the huge amount of inconsistencies in the manga), I can understand why you're all so bent on only accepting it, even though I don't agree.
Well the manga made it clear when Oro was 'interviewing' the Second hokage that the Senju and the Uchiha never got along (as an entirety, not on a case to case basis). According to the First admittingly failing at making peace and the 1-3rd's testimony about the question if sasuke should help or hurt the situation, the clans never got along entirely. Yes there was no issues that demanded blood... but they weren't happy neighbors.
We only got things from Tobirama's point of view, which may or may not be accurate. I mean, the Uchiha seemed to have no issue working with Senju and wanted Madara to accept the truce. THey even turned their backs on Madara and thought him to be power hungry when he kept warning them what making Hashirama a hokage might lead to. Pretty sure they got along well enough, and that Tobirama was the one who was causing problems.
Where is the proof, apart from what Tobirama says? I mean, given what we see of the Uchiha, it'd be Senju who'd start anything, if anything. Uchiha voted for Hashirama as a hokage, forced Madara to agree to the truce, and turned their backs on Madara when he argued against Hashirama becoming a hokage. Even after being segregated by Tobirama, they didn't plan a coup, they just began to believe Madara.
Link 2
The Second admitting (With the First Hokage unable to dispute his point) that the Senju and Uchiha never really got along, they were always at each other's throats.
Link 3
Just a flavor link, hard to consider factual when you consider the speaker. But apparently the Uchiha had a way of disrupting the village.
Was this before Konoha or after? I'm inclined to believe before Konoha, which explains why Hashirama didn't dispute Tobirama's point.
How so? What did they do? The only ones I can remember are Madara and Tobi without provocation. The coup de Uchiha planned the coup because they were robbed of their political equality by the elders, who refused to give it back.
Again even the first hokage submits to Tobirama calling him Naive for forcing them to live together so quickly... (or at all in Tobirama's head) and even the first hokage pouted in silent admittance that maybe it wasn't a good idea. So I'm not just pulling this out of thin air. Even the first 3 hokages questioned the logic in retrospect.
Root only answers to Danzou, but Danzou was never completely independent since there is a ruling body not only in Konoha, but in the Fire country. Konoha could not go against the interests of the country, it can go just up to a point where the Daymio and his advisors have to be included in the decision process.
Inside Konoha it works more or less the same way, we know that the Hokage have the same roles of military commander and a sort of mayor\governor, but we also know from manga, novels and anime that the jounin council assumes if the Hokage isn't in position to take decisions and it's head is the second in the line of succession until a new Hokage is selected, we also know that there's the elders' council with the Hokage, his two advisors and the head of Root (and the novels imply that the head of the jounin council sometimes participates too, but not always).
So as far as we know Root is an independent agency with a lot of Freedom that Danzou used to try to get more power, in the anime he goes as far as stage various assassination attempts against Hiruzen with root agents under disguise to blame other villages. After Kyuubi's invation, Hiruzen noticing Danzou's interest in Kakashi encourages him to accept Danzou's invitation to become part of Root so he can act as his spy on Root, at some point in the timeline Hiruzen decided to intervene and basically went with his Anbu to "deal" with Danzou, from this, Danzou discovered that Hiruzen had enough evidence to sentence him to treason (punished by death), but he said that that would not be the best course of action, instead choose to spare Danzou under the condition that Root would have their freedom limited, but still freedom enough to fulfill his role but not freedom enough to plot against the Hokage office or take actions like the Uchiha Massacre or Allowing Orochimaru to experiment on Hashirama's cells.
Sincerely, though I understand that most people here are hard core manga canon vigilantes, sincerely, to me I really don't mind that much about it as most here, unless other media, like databooks, novels, anime and video-games clearly and irremediably contradicts the manga, they are part of the Naruto's "Expanded Universe" and a lot of these other media have shown things that makes the manga make more sense. Like the video-games showing how Akatsuki was formed and the members recruited, or a lot of these flashback or expanded story arcs like Guy's, Obito's, the Chuunin Exam where the rest of Konoha 11 (except for Naruto and Sasuke) became Chuunin, the origins of Yamato, how Kakashi became ANBU and how he became Yamato and Itachi's sempai, the brief one dealing with Itachi's time as ANBU too.
None of these things really contradicts the manga, and adds way more depth to the story, so at least to me I can take them seriously, and tough I don't really support the more radical idea that only the manga can be trusted (given the huge amount of inconsistencies in the manga), I can understand why you're all so bent on only accepting it, even though I don't agree.
Anime likes to take liberties and be weird. If it was up to the anime, Naruto would be an absolute dumbass who'd get lost easily, among other stuff. Plus, I just can't see Danzou being answerable to anyone.
We only got things from Tobirama's point of view, which may or may not be accurate. I mean, the Uchiha seemed to have no issue working with Senju and wanted Madara to accept the truce. THey even turned their backs on Madara and thought him to be power hungry when he kept warning them what making Hashirama a hokage might lead to. Pretty sure they got along well enough, and that Tobirama was the one who was causing problems.
Where is the proof, apart from what Tobirama says? I mean, given what we see of the Uchiha, it'd be Senju who'd start anything, if anything. Uchiha voted for Hashirama as a hokage, forced Madara to agree to the truce, and turned their backs on Madara when he argued against Hashirama becoming a hokage. Even after being segregated by Tobirama, they didn't plan a coup, they just began to believe Madara.
Was this before Konoha or after? I'm inclined to believe before Konoha, which explains why Hashirama didn't dispute Tobirama's point.
How so? What did they do? The only ones I can remember are Madara and Tobi without provocation. The coup de Uchiha planned the coup because they were robbed of their political equality by the elders, who refused to give it back.
Not like Hashirama will argue against everything Tobirama says, no?
Well ... The Second did say threaten the existence of our village so i figured he would mean the village that was created from the two clans because before they were just combative nomads. So he was refering to the leaf village.
Secondly, i think the overgloss statement does address the topic well. Granted there are some credability issues as you pointed out with it being Tobirama. But Tobirama is an extreme... and his ideals trickled down to the people around him during his rule.. whether slightly or abundantly was my point.
And I hope you don't think i'm trying to blame anyone. My whole argument is that blame is simply hard to assign, too many factors, too many parties.
Well ... The Second did say threaten the existence of our village so i figured he would mean the village that was created from the two clans because before they were just combative nomads. So he was refering to the leaf village.
Asking about LInk 2. Link 3 was talking about any clan threatening the village.
Secondly, i think the overgloss statement does address the topic well. Granted there are some credability issues as you pointed out with it being Tobirama. But Tobirama is an extreme... and his ideals trickled down to the people around him during his rule.. whether slightly or abundantly was my point.
And I hope you don't think i'm trying to blame anyone. My whole argument is that blame is simply hard to assign, too many factors, too many parties.
It seems to have trickled down to mainly Danzou (who took it a step further) and the other two elders, although I don't think by that much. Their actions against Uchiha seemed to be more out of hunger for power while Danzou just wanted their power without being challenged.
True, but I think more fault goes to Tobirama, Madara, and Danzou than anyone else. Elders also deserve blame for their role.
Anime likes to take liberties and be weird. If it was up to the anime, Naruto would be an absolute dumbass who'd get lost easily, among other stuff. Plus, I just can't see Danzou being answerable to anyone.
Danzou being not answerable to anyone make no sense at all, how the hell you're part of an military organizations, fulfilling a role in its hierarchy and activities and still don't answer anyone?
It would make sense if Root was a paramilitary organization, like Akatsuki, but far from that, Root have a very clear role in Konoha.
Well in a weird way you both are sort of right. Technically he does 'answer' to the Hokage. But even when he was stripped of his power because of thee Uchiha incident... the ANBU continued to answer to him and spread his will and 'darkness' where he saw fit.
I don't think Danzo directly answered because it took the votes of the other elders to get him kicked off the council. And after he was no longer on the council, then the Hokage could officially impose his will on him since he was of much lower rank at that point. But even though he held nothing offical and was just another Jounin at that point, the ANBU still remained loyal. or at the very least, the ROOT branch of the ANBU did.
Who did Danzou answer to in the manga? He met Itachi behind closed doors and implied that Sarutobi did not know for sure Danzou was about to order Itachi to massacre the Uchiha. He also killed the frog messenger to prevent Naruto from coming back despite Tsunade and the elders agreeing to bring him back to fight against Pain. Then the whole deal with Hanzou that led to Yahiko's death and Nagato seeking revenge upon Konoha. Root is supposed to be a hidden organization, no? Danzou could easily order his Root members to do this or that, and a lot of ninjas wouldn't know to whom the Root members belong to. Though I guess at one point Danzou did have to answer to Hiruzen before he ordered it disbanded.
He was 'officially' kicked from his position as the ROOT leader by the 3rd because he murdered off the Uchiha. But even when he was supposedly gone... the Organization and the various workings of the leaf village still bent to his will. He doesn't have a specific categorical power.
His position (excuse my comparison) is similar to the Hokage's. A massive wave of respect amongst the shinobi who dwell in the dark side of the village.
If you want to get really metaphorical, you could say Danzo was the 'dark' Kage in a sense. All the shinobi that had to work in the night time and do unspeakable things to make sure the village was afloat respected him and idolized him. While the Hokage was the public face. People didn't know how various emergencies around the village got solved (Some of which thanks to Danzo and his underhanded methods) but they were glad it did get solved and thanked the Hokage for it.
He built a system so deep and trusting of none other than himself, that even when condemned by the Hokage, the ANBU (or ROOT) still didn't abandon him. And continued to take orders from him.
So in that sense, Danzo is in fact untouchable. Yes he 'answers' to the council of fire and the Fire Daimyo, but Danzo doesn't need his title to be effective... in fact because of his zero technical accountability because he isn't the leader of ROOT... he might be more powerful.
His title on paper was stripped, but as long as he lived ROOT and the other branches of ANBU still noted his will and preformed as such. That's what i was saying about the Massacre happening: no matter what. Danzo would've push it through, the 3rd had no way to impose his will. Not that Danzo would've listened... and like you pointed out, he doesn't need his official title to be a thorn in everyone's side.
^Granted your point is also valid. But when has there ever been an Uchiha Hokage? Yes it's democratic, just as much as America. But there are unspoken standards that affect it... Aka Uchiha don't normally get important positions.. and never Hokage. Obviously that is due to the Second's influence and the drumming up of horror stories of the Uchiha started by their rival Clan.
So yes, you're right... It is a democratic system. But again, like any Democracy, it has tendencies to slide towards a particular set of people. Did we know that Uchiha didn't get important positions? As far as I know there were only few important position in the village.
And Uchiha not having a Hokage was not a problem seeing we don't see anyone from Nara clan or Akimichi clan or Uhi clan or Yamanaka clan becoming Hokage. Heck Not even from Hyuuga clan which everyone respects.
The AnBu is an elite force in the leaf village... You don't just waltz in. You have to be approved in some manner. I'd assume the Head of the Military.. the Hokage would be the one to look over your profile. Or at the very least Danzo would have to approve. But AnBu isn't a normal leaf shinobi rank, you don't just decide to pop in because you can. The AnBu are noted to be HAND PICKED by the Hokage. They don't just raise up in ranks.
As far as we know foundation has anbu that even Hokage don't have knowledge like Yamato. And taking someone in the Anbu doesn;t means Hokage is showing respect to your clan. Anyone who suited the task would be taken in.
No. But i will say... it was implanted in a bird, so i don't know how much chakra that thing gave the eye... In all seriousness, Shisui lost the eye because he was going to use it on the Uchiha. The bit i said about him stopping them comes from here as well... I'm not sure which Game it was (Yes, it was a game, it was the only one that contained the cut scenes for this sequence so go figure) but Shisui was informed about how the peace talks went... he didn't like the result, so he told himself he was gonna cast genjutsu on the clan to make it better. Danzo thought it was a waste of time and took one of his eyes. Before Shisui fought Danzo and Narrowly got away to give Itachi his other eye. Afterwards committing suicide and ... history happened.
If Shisui was preparing to cast the genjutsu on the Uchiha, i assume it was ready. And since it's his eyes i'd take his word over Itachi's. That's all there is to that bit. Shisui wouldn't proclaim he is going to use the genjutsu in Danzo's face and it not actually be functional. We will never know of that part, all we know is that Itachi cannot use the eye not that he didn't attempt to use it. So your argument about Itachi is debunk by manga.
Again, I'm not saying they literally sent Shisui into the Black ops after Itachi. I mean they told him to watch Itachi. Also so we're clear the Databook says:
ANBU are handpicked by their respective Ho[kage] ...
Meaning the 3rd at least had to let Shisui and Itachi in. And there was never any Uchiha before them because of hatred towards Uchiha... so yes. He did something no other leader before him did. MInd giving any proof that no Uchiha was ever selected to be Anbu. We have seen that Kagami was with Second in his death battle along with Sarutobi and Danzou. And manga has confirmed that root was only founded after Danzou proposed it and we know two Uchiha's are there. So that part s just a speculation on your part.
QUOTE]
Its good that you are noe getting my point and accepting them. Whether Hiruzen was in pwer in that point of time or not, problems test ones true of their leadership quality and Hiruzen failed in that test horribly.
What? ANBU is a very high and mighty title. The masks they wear mean something nearly religious in their culture (assuming their culture is japanese... lol) as well as serving a functionality of hiding their face in combat.
Do you think someone would hand the secrets of their village to some random individual off the street? No. It's not a military rank, it's an intelligence group with Militarized power. Meaning you can be a non combatant and serve the function of a black op just as well. And the Databook literally says that ANBU are hand picked, so i don't know what you're going on about. Yamo was put into ROOT. Which doesn't even officially exist.
ANBU are trusted with secrets that could harm the village... Even Danzo forced his ROOT members to get Tongue seals that would prevent them from speaking about the secrets they know. It isn't something you let some random do, you have to deeply trust the person. Or in Danzo's case, have a seal to stop them from betraying you anyway.
Yamato was let in by Danzo, who was planning on using him to gain control of Naruto. So again, you don't present anything contridictor to what i said before: ANBU is approved by either Danzo (ROOT) or the Actual Hokage.
Itachi was an official ANBU member, appointed through the normal processes. So yes... the Hokage approved of him. The Hokage Trusted him, which was something not given to Uchiha on a normal Basis. For Itachi to be not approved by the Hokage, he'd have to go through Danzo and be in ROOT. And ROOT is known for its curse seals on the tongue as well as not using the traditional ANBU garbs that Itachi is plainly seen wearing. And Itachi doesn't have a curse seal on his tongue proventing him from doing x, y, and z. So Yes... Itachi is a Normal Anbu, aka Accepted by the Hokage.
All in all Unless itachi was stated to be a ROOT member, or something else. HE WAS PASSED THROUGH BY THE NORMAL CHANNELS. Show manga proof that he was an extraordinary case and you'll have an argument, otherwise you're just doing what you do best. Making a baseless claim.
And have you even read your argument? Do you know how cripplingly daft it sounds?
"Whether Hiruzen was in p[o]wer in that point of time or not, problems test ones true of their leadership quality and Hiruzen failed in that test horribly."
What?...
So it's his fault Tobirama started racism towards the Uchiha?
It's his fault that Tobi/Madara attacked the village with the Nine tails and Killed the 4th Hokage... making everyone dislike Uchiha AND leaving evidence to help Danzo persecute them...?
It's his fault that peace talks with Uchiha failed because they weren't interested and Danzo stopped Shisui from casting Genjutsu to fix the issue?
It's his fault that Itachi made up his mind to murder his clan despite the 3rd Hokage trying to talk him out of it?
It's his fault that no matter what happened Tobi/Madara was going ot make sure the Uchiha suffered for betraying him to prove the point that they needed him/He was right?
I don't see how all those questions led you to blame the 3rd Hokage, but honestly i think you do it more because you're bored.
Lastly:
Where did your claim of Danzo telling [someone] to not let Uchiha's fight during the 9-tail attack go? I'm still waiting on that since you made such a fuss about how that insulted all the Uchiha and helped push them off the edge. And how the 3rd Hokage was an idiot to tell them to stay back. Where's that scan?
First suggestion read the manga. Uchiha had the capablitiy to suppress Kyuubi yet DNAzo(like museum of all DNAs) approach Hiruzen to not allow them in the front line so Hiruzen told them to do only resuing stuffs. By doing so he angered Uchiha coz that clearly so how much they don't trust Uchiha and discriminate. And as a result after the incident every villagers start question uchiha for not joining the fight against Kyuubi coz they believe many life and Yondaime could have been saved if Uchiha join the battle. So either your knowledge on the matter is lacking or you proposefully ignoring and playing dumb.
And your police comments really seems idiotic.
That is a big statement to make, so i'm sure you have the scans laying around of the specific incident when that happened + the specific incident when everyone was 'mad' at the Uchiha for Not participating right?
What about the claim that Shisui's Jutsu wasn't 'ready'? 'Debunked he says'.
[video]https://youtu.be/pnI6_Hk79tE?t=337[/video]
5:35 incase the time stamp doesn't work. He was going to use the Sharingan to stop the clan from fighting because they weren't listening to peace talks. But couldn't make it in time and was stopped by Danzo's people.
Again, Shisui says he was going to use it... so it is safe to assume that it is FUNCTIONAL.
Also Bonus: Go to 1:10 and ffrom there, They talk about how well it went when itachi openly spoke against the Coup (suggesting they talk to the 3rd) and how it didn't go well because of their will + bond...
More proof to my point that the third did reach out... they just didn't want to hear it.
There's my proof. Now show me a manga scan [official translation] where Itachi specifically says he couldn't use it for 10 years...
It's a jutsu that can be used once every 10 years yes... but itachi never says he COULDN'T use it up til that point. Only that if he did use it, it'd take 10 years to regen.
Your issue is that you keep looking at this as a challenge of sorts. A problem the 3rd had to solve, and he failed. But that's where you are wrong, and childishly so. Madara and Tobi + Danzo have been working at killing them off for years. And Itachi accepted the personal burden dispite anything his brother would experience.
The 3rd tried his best, maybe you haven't played the game/watched the animated footage of the fall of the Uchiha so you don't know. But he tried. The Uchiha were simply stubborn and what happened to them was tragic. But it is hardly anyone is particular's fault..
or as M3J pointed out. If you want to blame anyone just take a shot at Danzo, Tobi, and Madara.
You should learn to quit. Most of your arguments are baseless and you don't even have manga to show for half of what you say. So unless you bring actual scans and proof that:
Itachi was in ROOT (The only Anbu branch not governed by the Hokage).
That Itachi specifically said: He CANNOT use Shisui's eyes. (Don't put anything about him explaining it can only be used once every 10 years, that's just him explaining how powerful it is.)
Or Danzo/the Third specifically telling the Uchiha to sit out the battle.
You've lost this discussion as far as logic is concerned.
What? ANBU is a very high and mighty title. The masks they wear mean something nearly religious in their culture (assuming their culture is japanese... lol) as well as serving a functionality of hiding their face in combat.
Do you think someone would hand the secrets of their village to some random individual off the street? No. It's not a military rank, it's an intelligence group with Militarized power. Meaning you can be a non combatant and serve the function of a black op just as well. And the Databook literally says that ANBU are hand picked, so i don't know what you're going on about. Yamo was put into ROOT. Which doesn't even officially exist.
Not just some random but people who actually qualified the task like Itachi and Shishui. And selecting them as anbu doesn't mean Hokage is showing respect to your clan as you suggested. Handpicked means Hokage select the best not out of genorisity to show sympathy to a clan.
And Yama being in the root means Danzo had the full control over selection of Root. So Hokage don't havefull knowledge over the root as you suggest.
What?...
So it's his fault Tobirama started racism towards the Uchiha?
It's his fault that Tobi/Madara attacked the village with the Nine tails and Killed the 4th Hokage... making everyone dislike Uchiha AND leaving evidence to help Danzo persecute them...?
It's his fault that peace talks with Uchiha failed because they weren't interested and Danzo stopped Shisui from casting Genjutsu to fix the issue?
It's his fault that Itachi made up his mind to murder his clan despite the 3rd Hokage trying to talk him out of it?
It's his fault that no matter what happened Tobi/Madara was going ot make sure the Uchiha suffered for betraying him to prove the point that they needed him/He was right?
I don't see how all those questions led you to blame the 3rd Hokage, but honestly i think you do it more because you're bored.
His fault is not understanding the possible conditions that could have rose up due to his predecessor's policy. I have said it like 100 times, its time you start getting the meaning of "Prevention is Better than CUre" argument I bring up in my first post.
That is a big statement to make, so i'm sure you have the scans laying around of the specific incident when that happened + the specific incident when everyone was 'mad' at the Uchiha for Not participating right?
There's my proof. Now show me a manga scan [official translation] where Itachi specifically says he couldn't use it for 10 years...
It's a jutsu that can be used once every 10 years yes... but itachi never says he COULDN'T use it up til that point. Only that if he did use it, it'd take 10 years to regen.
Itachi did say that he could use it. Read the manga when Naruto and Bee met Nagato and Itachi in the war, Naruto ask why he didn't use it on Sasuke by himself instead of giving it to Naruto, Itachi replied that it was not that he didn't wanted to use, Its just that he couldn't use it coz it takes 10 years to use it again.
And all this arguments are uner assumption that Itachi can use Kotoamatsukami immediately after he recieve Shishui's eye. He was not the original user of it so don't just assume Itachi will know how to use it immediately. *sigh*.
The 3rd tried his best, maybe you haven't played the game/watched the animated footage of the fall of the Uchiha so you don't know. But he tried. The Uchiha were simply stubborn and what happened to them was tragic. But it is hardly anyone is particular's fault..
Not just some random but people who actually qualified the task like Itachi and Shishui. And selecting them as anbu doesn't mean Hokage is showing respect to your clan as you suggested. Handpicked means Hokage select the best not out of genorisity to show sympathy to a clan.
And Yama being in the root means Danzo had the full control over selection of Root. So Hokage don't havefull knowledge over the root as you suggest.
His fault is not understanding the possible conditions that could have rose up due to his predecessor's policy. I have said it like 100 times, its time you start getting the meaning of "Prevention is Better than CUre" argument I bring up in my first post.
No, it isn't. You've basically said it's his fault for not being able to clean up a mess that isn't his. You've proven my point for me.
It was in the anime, look for yourself.
^It never existed. You made one of your major points a lie and try to cover it up with a 'look for it yourself' pout. No one ever told the Uchiha to sit out the fight. And no one raged at the Uchiha for not showing up either. You are trying to make claim over something that never happened and you have no proof for just to win an argument on the internet. You deserve a pat on the back. You lose this one.
Itachi did say that he could use it. Read the manga when Naruto and Bee met Nagato and Itachi in the war, Naruto ask why he didn't use it on Sasuke by himself instead of giving it to Naruto, Itachi replied that it was not that he didn't wanted to use, Its just that he couldn't use it coz it takes 10 years to use it again.
And all this arguments are uner assumption that Itachi can use Kotoamatsukami immediately after he recieve Shishui's eye. He was not the original user of it so don't just assume Itachi will know how to use it immediately. *sigh*.
^Again you're wrong.
The Crow was made to react to Itachi's eyes and cast the genjutsu on the user. It just so happened that since Sasuke implanted itachi's eyes, the revived Itachi was the first one to fight Naruto. It has NOTHING to do with him not being able to use it. He allowed sasuke to kill him to make up for his sins, and gave naruto the eye so That if Naruto ever fought Sasuke while Sasuke had EMS, the crow would stop Sasuke. And he knew that he could trust Naruto with the Eye's power instead of leaving it with anyone else. The eye was always ready to use. Had nothing to do with time, everything to do with Itachi waiting until after his death to make up for his sins.
Third only said he would try but never did anything notable. If you think I missed then mind providing anything that Third did to calm down Uchiha's.
He sent Itachi to talk to them.. and it didn't work, as itachi stated in the video i posted. AND he approved Shisui's operation to stop them, but Danzo interfere'd.
Good job with your fantasy logic. You have never won a debate against me, this won't be either.
Never? That's a bit of a stretch. And I'm not the one with fantasy logic, provide actual scans and proof like i do or else you are just talking out of the side of your neck. It's all fun and games, but you don't have a bit of evidence to support the lie that Danzo pulled the 3rd aside to tell him to keep the Uchiha away from the front line. Or when you pointed out that Danzo wasn't the one that moved the Uchiha? The second was? That was hilarious. Or when you said Naruto wasn't blood related to Asura at all?
You clearly lack composition skills because Itachi never said he couldn't use the technique you refereed to... Chapter 550 by the way. He clearly told Naruto he wanted to wait until after his death and Sasuke had his eyes. Then if sasuke went after the village the Eyes would've taken care of him. But that never happened. ... but he could still use it.
Face it, whenever you make claims you bring nothing more than round about statements and zero logic or evidence. If you want to even run in this conversation links to all of your claims and if you don't have them, you lost on a factual basis. Pure and simple. Lack of links = no backbone for your claims.
And telling me to go look for 'your' claims doesn't cut it either. I'm sure you can logically understand why that doesn't fly.
Would you like a complete list of quotes that you have commented so far that make me ROFL?
Seriously, you just embarrass yourself at this point. You come across as petty when the main meat of your argument is passive aggressive jabs and referencing manga material you don't even know the location of. Mix that in with barely consistent grammar and you've a Mangang approved forum post. If you don't have factual proof, don't bother. IF you don't have an open mind to at least process other people's opinions, don't bother. And if you can't type your way through a paragraph without relying on smiley faces and 'humor' to gloss over the fact that you are just as lost in your logic as the rest of us... then don't bother. So if you can put together something thought out, with links and actual anchors in the show, I'll be more than glad to have an Adult's discussion with you. But [as i know you are] if you are just gonna hit me with childish overlays and pretend I'm wrong because your logic can't add up my statements then good day to you. I hope you have fun Twiddling your fingers.
Good you finally conceeded that Hiruzen selecting Itachi as an anbu was not to show his sympathy to uchiha.
^It never existed. You made one of your major points a lie and try to cover it up with a 'look for it yourself' pout. No one ever told the Uchiha to sit out the fight. And no one raged at the Uchiha for not showing up either. You are trying to make claim over something that never happened and you have no proof for just to win an argument on the internet. You deserve a pat on the back. You lose this one.
Oh Yeah? It exist and I still remember the scene, two Uchiha police comes and intervene the fight between two drukens, and one of them saying bastards you were hiding when Kyuubi attacks and now you people are showing.
I deleted my HD, but that doesn't mean there were no such episodes. Such irony that you don't even know that as usual.
^Again you're wrong.
The Crow was made to react to Itachi's eyes and cast the genjutsu on the user. It just so happened that since Sasuke implanted itachi's eyes, the revived Itachi was the first one to fight Naruto. It has NOTHING to do with him not being able to use it. He allowed sasuke to kill him to make up for his sins, and gave naruto the eye so That if Naruto ever fought Sasuke while Sasuke had EMS, the crow would stop Sasuke. And he knew that he could trust Naruto with the Eye's power instead of leaving it with anyone else. The eye was always ready to use. Had nothing to do with time, everything to do with Itachi waiting until after his death to make up for his sins.
U-huh! Whats so difficult about the scene that you are not understanding that.
Bee: Why didn't you cast that jutsu(KOtoamatsukami) on Sasuke from the start using Shisui's eye?
Itachi: Its not that I didn't, I couldn't. Not at that time
Itachi clearly said he couldn't use the jutsu, so again you fail.
Watch 298 again.
He sent Itachi to talk to them.. and it didn't work, as itachi stated in the video i posted. AND he approved Shisui's operation to stop them, but Danzo interfere'd.
1. Itachi never talk to Uchiha about not wanting to go on war or anything about third.
2. Shishui suggested using his eye, not Hiruzen. Approving doesn't count as doing things imo. Shishui could have done that without asking Third, but due to growing tension he inform Third.
SO you don't even have anything that Hiruzen do to ensure peace with Uchiha. You fail again I suppose.
Ok so you started to realised that your argument was flawed so you started attacking other saying their grammar is not correct? Good keep doing it.
No need to be embarass now, coz you have been embarassing yourself for way too long.
Itachi clearly states he wasn't able to use Kotoamatsukami during his fight with Sasuke because of the 10-year waiting period. http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/550/12
Because it was already used at that point. I'm talking about when it couldn't be used while he was alive.
Itachi never used the jutsu when he was alive simply because he was waiting out Sasuke killing him, by the time stamp you just showed, the jutsu had already been used so obviously he can't use it anymore.
My whole point is that the jutsu was ready to be used at the time period of the Uchiha revolt. Which it was.
---------- Post added at 09:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:41 AM ----------
Good you finally conceeded that Hiruzen selecting Itachi as an anbu was not to show his sympathy to uchiha.
It does when Itachi is 13... It was a respectful title. But this is COMPLETELY opinionated so there is no use going back and forth.
Oh Yeah? It exist and I still remember the scene, two Uchiha police comes and intervene the fight between two drukens, and one of them saying bastards you were hiding when Kyuubi attacks and now you people are showing.
I deleted my HD, but that doesn't mean there were no such episodes. Such irony that you don't even know that as usual.
^That isn't proof at all. Stop it. Even IF this scene exists which i'm a skeptic of... that has nothing to do with Danzo pulling anyone aside and telling anyone to leave the Uchiha out of the fight. That has nothing to do with the Uchiha getting upset at the 3rd Hokage because he made them sit out the fight. Your lofty claims exist no where in the Manga, so stop trying to defend them. Unless you have proof of Danzo vocalizing his claims against the Uchiha trying to get into the battle and the Uchiha vocalizing their anger at being held back... then you've made that up for all i can give you credit for. It's just as good as me saying the 3rd Hokage fought off Itachi 3 times before he went ahead with the uchiha Masscre... sounds good for my argument... but zero proof.
So if you don't have the scan or the episode Number, this point doesn't exist.
U-huh! Whats so difficult about the scene that you are not understanding that.
Bee: Why didn't you cast that jutsu(KOtoamatsukami) on Sasuke from the start using Shisui's eye?
Itachi: Its not that I didn't, I couldn't. Not at that time
Itachi clearly said he couldn't use the jutsu, so again you fail.
Watch 298 again.
My point is that he could've used it on the Uchiha Massacre, You said it was never ready at that point.
there you go splitting hairs again. Yes he couldn't use it on Sasuke after using it himself, but i originally said Itachi made the executive decision not to use the eye on his clan... but to kill them all instead. You told me he couldn't use the eye on the eve of the slaugther, but thanks to the fact that the eye had never been used until it was used on himself by the crow... that's false.
Itachi had the option and ability to use the eye on his clan... he just decided not to. That was the entirety of my point. The eye was avaible DURING the Uchiha Masscre, which thanks to the fact that it had never been used until the middle of the shinobi war... proves that the eye wasn't used and your interpretation of what Itachi ment was flawed.
Again my point soley was that the EYE could've been used to stop the clan instead of violent means. But itachi decided to kill them off instead. The eye was okay to be used only 8 years after the masscre, or 9? But not the full 10 wait. It had NEVER been used before then. That was my point. So i don't want to go splitting hairs here. All i know is that I was right.
1. Itachi never talk to Uchiha about not wanting to go on war or anything about third.
2. Shishui suggested using his eye, not Hiruzen. Approving doesn't count as doing things imo. Shishui could have done that without asking Third, but due to growing tension he inform Third.
1.) Did you watch the video i posted? He clearly says that he talked to them, and he couldn't stop them... but he got them to postpone the movement. That is clearly Itachi trying to stop them... what?
2.)If approving things doesn't count as doing things then i guess no leader has ever done much of anything. By your logic, him saying okay to a plan that would've worked out well isn't his to take... and Him saying No to a plan that was forced through anyway is his fault. I don't understand.
-itachi chose to kill his own clan of his own volition after Shisui killed himself. No one approved of anything definite. He was a proud Uchiha and made the decision that the others wouldn't listen to reason, they had to be put down. That is an inner clan issue at that point, the 3rd as leader can't be held responsible for what a single person from a clan decided was best for that clan.
SO you don't even have anything that Hiruzen do to ensure peace with Uchiha. You fail again I suppose.
Again, you didn't watch the series or play the game where he made the effort to at least watch the beginning of that video. The 3rd had been working with Shisui and Itachi to talk to the Uchiha and Delay the thing until they could come up with something permanant. It just turns out that Itachi ran out of patience and didn't want his younger brother in the hands Danzo if Danzo pulled it off himself.
And also because Tobi/Madara was preparing to do the same thing to the Uchiha so the only way to save sasuke would be to go along with it... the fact that Danzo, Madara, and Itachi decided to end the Uchiha is a fate that the 3rd couldn't avoid. Even if he stopped them offically he'd have to physically stop all 3 parties.
Ok so you started to realised that your argument was flawed so you started attacking other saying their grammar is not correct? Good keep doing it.
No need to be embarass now, coz you have been embarassing yourself for way too long.
1.) The Genjutsu was avaible ot be used on the Uchiha... but Itachi made the decision not to.
2.) Danzo never told any Uchiha to stay out of the way during the Kyuubi attack. The Uchiha never were 'hated' because the 3rd Hokage made a 'dumb' mistake of telling them to stay out of the way.
3.) And between Danzo, Tobi/Madara, and Itachi... the Masscrew was going to happen no matter what the 3rd Hokage said.
Honestly this is a bore. You can't find the scans to defend your main point which is Danzo telling the Uchiha not to fight was what pissed them off the most. And i proved that Itachi very well could have used the Genjutsu on the Clan (obviously that might've not stopped Tobi from killing them... or Danzo). You can't produce proof for either and now we're just running over basic facts with no forward movement.
So seriously. When you can find the proof for the Danzo telling Uchihas to stay back/Uchihas getting pissed off at the leadership about it... i'll be happy to take back what i said and concede everything to you.
I think that will make everything simple. Just find me the scan proof of your center argument and everything is yours. Otherwise, you've built your whole argument on a lie.
@Exodi even provided the manga link there. I don't know how could someone misinterprete such things. Well its not suprising coz you have been doing it for way too long.
It does when Itachi is 13... It was a respectful title. But this is COMPLETELY opinionated so there is no use going back and forth.
Just accept when you make a mistake. Accepting in anbu don't mean Hokage is showing respect to the clan but recognising one's skill. Its simple as that.
^That isn't proof at all. Stop it. Even IF this scene exists which i'm a skeptic of... that has nothing to do with Danzo pulling anyone aside and telling anyone to leave the Uchiha out of the fight. That has nothing to do with the Uchiha getting upset at the 3rd Hokage because he made them sit out the fight. Your lofty claims exist no where in the Manga, so stop trying to defend them. Unless you have proof of Danzo vocalizing his claims against the Uchiha trying to get into the battle and the Uchiha vocalizing their anger at being held back... then you've made that up for all i can give you credit for. It's just as good as me saying the 3rd Hokage fought off Itachi 3 times before he went ahead with the uchiha Masscre... sounds good for my argument... but zero proof.
So if you don't have the scan or the episode Number, this point doesn't exist.
Thing is the scene existed of both Hiruzen stopping Uchiha from joining the front battle with Kyuubi by saying they should stick with rescue mission and civilians blaming Uchiha's for hiding during Kyuubi attack.
I am going to search for 400+ episodes just to show that obvious truth. If you like you can ask anyone who is a consistent Naruto viewer.
1.) Did you watch the video i posted? He clearly says that he talked to them, and he couldn't stop them... but he got them to postpone the movement. That is clearly Itachi trying to stop them... what?
2.)If approving things doesn't count as doing things then i guess no leader has ever done much of anything. By your logic, him saying okay to a plan that would've worked out well isn't his to take... and Him saying No to a plan that was forced through anyway is his fault. I don't understand.
-itachi chose to kill his own clan of his own volition after Shisui killed himself. No one approved of anything definite. He was a proud Uchiha and made the decision that the others wouldn't listen to reason, they had to be put down. That is an inner clan issue at that point, the 3rd as leader can't be held responsible for what a single person from a clan decided was best for that clan.
Did you consider thinking before bringing that up?
Hiruzen send an Uchiha to speak with Uchiha (coz he was damn busy) to stop the revolution coz? he said so?
No committment no face to face talk. Do you think that will work or that is enough to suppress the anger that have been cultivated among them for decades?
That's just idiotic way of handling a political such as that. Hiruzen was indeed a horrible leader and you just prove yourself.
Danzou wasn't untouchable, and while I still don't think he had to answer to anyone, he was given freedom by Hiruzen because Hiruzen didn't have the balls to do a lot of the dark stuff needed to keep the village thriving. Otherwise if he wanted, Hiruzen could have found ways to make sure Danzou didn't do anything horrible.
@Exodi even provided the manga link there. I don't know how could someone misinterprete such things. Well its not suprising coz you have been doing it for way too long.
What? You don't read sir, seriously. It's tiring to have to put up with your lack of basic reading ability. I said the link you guys provided shows that Itachi in NO WAY was UNABLE TO USE THE JUTSU DURING THE UCHIHA REVOLT. HE saved it for sasuke, that was his decision. and that was my point. and I was right. I said it like 8 times but you read all that and go: See?! HE SAID 10 years?! No. I said there was no indication he couldn't use it UP UNTIL THAT POINT.
You said he couldn't use it during the uchiha revolt. And that is wrong, he had the ability to use it up until he used it during the war. That was my whole point. So i don't know why you're acting like you're right in that fashion, in fact if anything you're proving my point by saying that the genjutsu was unused until itachi used it...
And that was my whole point. And you've proven it right. So thank you. Prior to using it on himself, the eye was able to be used so he could've used it on the Uchiha. That was my point. Stamp it. I find myself repeating points because you don't read throughly, and i have no doubts you still won't fully understand that you are wrong here.
Just accept when you make a mistake. Accepting in anbu don't mean Hokage is showing respect to the clan but recognising one's skill. Its simple as that.
So recognizing someone's skills and trusting them with your village's security + secrets is not a show of respect? As you said over and over, people weren't fond of the Uchiha, so you don't think the Kinds of Danzo and the elders disapproved of giving an Uchiha access to confidental archives and clearance around the village? You think it was generally accepted for Uchiha who were forced to be police officers because they weren't trusted with anything else to be one of the highest military ranks?
Okay. IF you insist.
Thing is the scene existed of both Hiruzen stopping Uchiha from joining the front battle with Kyuubi by saying they should stick with rescue mission and civilians blaming Uchiha's for hiding during Kyuubi attack.
I am going to search for 400+ episodes just to show that obvious truth. If you like you can ask anyone who is a consistent Naruto viewer.
Because there is no such scene, pure and simple. There is no Danzou asking the 3rd hokage to keep the Uchiha away. There is no Uchiha being upset they can't join the fight. I've googled this scene 10 times by now and No where, not even in most Naruto forums or chapter summaries exist this type of plot. You're a liar trying to pass off 'common' knowledge. It simply doesn't exist in that sequence. You are making up the Danzo telling the 3rd to keep them away to make a point that is failing because if it was right, someone would've chimed in for you, or you would've been able to find it. It simply doesn't.
Did you consider thinking before bringing that up?
Hiruzen send an Uchiha to speak with Uchiha (coz he was damn busy) to stop the revolution coz? he said so?
No committment no face to face talk. Do you think that will work or that is enough to suppress the anger that have been cultivated among them for decades?
That's just idiotic way of handling a political such as that. Hiruzen was indeed a horrible leader and you just prove yourself.
What? Don't you know that's how most issues are handled? Don't you know a thing about politics and Diplomat system? Leaders of Nations/clans don't just waltz into what they consider hostile territory to talk to a bunch of people upset at them with the will to kill them on the spot. That is literally the last thing a smart leader would do... You can't be serious.
Itachi volunteered to handle that part so the 3rd wouldn't be in danger, and the 3rd accepted... or are you saying it makes more sense for him to walk into enemy turf?
I've made my point. You can't produce proof for any of your claims while all 3 of mine still stand..
1.) Itachi could've used the genjutsu because it wasn't used prior DURING the Uchiha revolt. (Again during the revolt, i really want to drill that point throughly)
2.) Madara and Danzo would've killed the Uchiha off anytime they pleased. (Madara was preparing to do it with the help of Danzo, and Itachi joined to make sure Sasuke was unharmed)
3.) Danzo never pulled the 3rd aside for some secret conversation about keeping the Uchiha out of the way during the fight, and the Uchiha never raged at the 3rd for telling them to stay out of the way under the influence of Danzo. (You can't produce a link, so it doesn't exist)
Everyone one of my claims you've asked for proof, ive show a video or a Manga page, so don't think you can side step false claims under the pretense of 'common' knowledge.
As far as I'm concerned i've won this discussion, you fail to show any proof. You've made over 9 claims. And the very back bone of your argument:
Danzo told 3rd not to let Uchiha participate in battle. Uchiha are outraged at 3rd. Uchiha hate the 3rd because he damaged their reputation... Uchiha plan revolt.
Lacks ANY type of justification because it doesn't exist. Try turning in any type of Debate outline or paper without evidence for your main point. Your "It's common knowledge' excuse doesn't cut it because it simply isn't. The Uchiha are never addressed during the scene. And if you have something contrary present it. Otherwise any further posts without the proof show that it doesnt' exist/you don't have the ability to find them means your main point is moot. And that means your argument is moot because the 3rd never offended the Uchiha like you said. Ergo, i win.
So find proof or Don't even bother. If you know what you are looking for a google search will find it within 5 minutes. So no, you don't have to rewatch 400 episodes. If you know the time period it's easy. But you don't because it doesn't exist.
-----------------
@M3J
Valid point. I wasn't implying he was untouchable, i was simply bridging the poitn between you guy's arguments. I'm saying that besides killing him or outright village shaming Danzo, Danzo was in a position of power that earned him the respect of all ANBU regardless if they were from ROOT or not. Nothing less than a public outting or purging could've killed his influence in the village.
