Shounen Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto

[Schabrak]

If someone believes that Hashirama actually took Madara down this time, they're simply ignoring manga evidence and facts. There's no denying it.

Like you do right now? He was about to be defeated had it not been for a being which wasn't himself [anymore].

 

[Impossibility]

It's not semantics if Madara defied the meaning of words contained, restrained and immobilized. How did he defy it? By being able to make a seal. If he could make a seal, he could "escape" it or simply just move. Even without the actual evidence I just pointed out, he was also depicted as confident and waiting for Obito in that situation, which was also proved by the manga at a later time.

If someone believes that Hashirama actually took Madara down this time, they're simply ignoring manga evidence and facts. There's no denying it.

He did, through Zetsu and Obito's power. I've no clue what you're referring to when you said that he made a seal. The reality is that if Zetsu hadn't taken action at that moment, Madara would've been sealed by Sai's jutsu. Only moments before, Hashirama made it clear that the battle was over between the two of them. What he did not predict was intervention on the part of Zetsu. You're denying the simple reality of the position Madara found himself in. How was he going to escape without Zetsu's aid? And even if you presuppose that he expected Zetsu's aid at some point, the only reasonable explanation for the situation he found himself in was that it was beyond his control or ability to stop.

What you're arguing is that Madara wilfully put himself in that position, or simply allowed for it to happen. That doesn't make any sense. That would require Madara to willingly increase the risk to himself without any benefit whatsoever. At any point, that 'plan' could've gone awry, and he wouldn't have been in any position to do anything about it. That's nonsensical.

 

[Roman]

Like you do right now? He was about to be defeated had it not been for a being which wasn't himself [anymore].

He planned all that, years ago, YEARS AGO. Which is why he was so leisured. Jesus.

---------- Post added at 07:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:25 PM ----------

He did, through Zetsu and Obito's power. I've no clue what you're referring to when you said that he made a seal. The reality is that if Zetsu hadn't taken action at that moment, Madara would've been sealed by Sai's jutsu. Only moments before, Hashirama made it clear that the battle was over between the two of them. What he did not predict was intervention on the part of Zetsu. You're denying the simple reality of the position Madara found himself in. How was he going to escape without Zetsu's aid? And even if you presuppose that he expected Zetsu's aid at some point, the only reasonable explanation for the situation he found himself in was that it was beyond his control or ability to stop.

What you're arguing is that Madara wilfully put himself in that position, or simply allowed for it to happen. That doesn't make any sense. That would require Madara to willingly increase the risk to himself without any benefit whatsoever. At any point, that 'plan' could've gone awry, and he wouldn't have been in any position to do anything about it. That's nonsensical.

He put a seal for Rinne Tensei just as Obito did which means he could actually move. But he didn't want to escape because he was waiting for the exact moment in which Obito would initiate the technique, which is why he didn't even pay attention to Hashirama or Naruto.

Because he had luxury to do so. He planned it all, first and foremost, he wanted to use Obito from the start in that fashion, that one day, he would revive him and last but not least, he was Edo Tensei. He thanked Naruto for weakening Obito so he wouldn't have to do it himself. Later he said that he'll fight more gracefully which means he screwed around before because he couldn't get hurt, as opposing to now when he's alive.

 

[Impossibility]

He put a seal for Rinne Tensei just as Obito did which means he could actually move. But he didn't want to escape because he was waiting for the exact moment in which Obito would initiate the technique, which is why he didn't even pay attention to Hashirama or Naruto.

Because he had luxury to do so. He planned it all, first and foremost, he wanted to use Obito from the start in that fashion, that one day, he would revive him and last but not least, he was Edo Tensei. He thanked Naruto for weakening Obito so he wouldn't have to do it himself. Later he said that he'll fight more gracefully which means he screwed around before because he couldn't get hurt, as opposing to now when he's alive.

Still don't know what you're referencing with this seal, I've no memory of Madara making seals while trapped.

It worked out that way, but that was chance. If Sasuke had finished Obito, nothing would've happened. If anyone else for that matter had, it wouldn't have worked that way. If Obito hadn't been so thoroughly weakened, it wouldn't have worked out. There were a myriad of things that could have gone wrong. And Madara would've been on the cusp of being sealed being unable to do anything about it. Operating in such a manner after enacting a plan that would go on to span decades would just be plain stupid. Why was Madara in that position? If someone could give me a reasonable justification for Madara simply allowing for himself to be bound in such a manner, I might consider questioning the manga's rather clear portrayal, but I haven't seen one. Saying that he couldn't be hurt, or brought down, is ridiculous because we know that isn't the case. It is nonsensical to state that Madara simply accepted a ton of risk without any benefit, particularly when it doesn't fit with the events that took place.

 

[Roman]

Still don't know what you're referencing with this seal, I've no memory of Madara making seals while trapped.

It worked out that way, but that was chance. If Sasuke had finished Obito, nothing would've happened. If anyone else for that matter had, it wouldn't have worked that way. If Obito hadn't been so thoroughly weakened, it wouldn't have worked out. There were a myriad of things that could have gone wrong. And Madara would've been on the cusp of being sealed being unable to do anything about it. Operating in such a manner after enacting a plan that would go on to span decades would just be plain stupid. Why was Madara in that position? If someone could give me a reasonable justification for Madara simply allowing for himself to be bound in such a manner, I might consider questioning the manga's rather clear portrayal, but I haven't seen one. Saying that he couldn't be hurt, or brought down, is ridiculous because we know that isn't the case. It is nonsensical to state that Madara simply accepted a ton of risk without any benefit, particularly when it doesn't fit with the events that took place.

Not giving a damn about Hashirama or the restraint.

Executing the technique simultaneously with Obito.

Chance has nothing to do with it if he can't be harmed and if he's not serious. I don't know why anyone brings chance or luck in an argument when Madara was literally waiting for that chance to happen. You're now questioning the entire mechanics of Madara's character in general but we don't have to digress so far because we'll agree that Kishimoto messed many things up.

If Zetsu is his will, then Zetsu is him. Madara simply made himself an opportunity which he would use in the future. Madara was tough to kill even when he wasn't in his prime. Degrading him to the level of being defeated by some restrained technique while being depicted as not giving a damn is absurd to me. Even more so because he literally took Hashirama down in 3 panels once he got back alive.

 

[Impossibility]

Not giving a damn about Hashirama or the restraint.

Which shows Madara had an ally available still to save him, doesn't change that he was already restrained, for all intents and purposes, defeated.

Executing the technique simultaneously with Obito.

I don't see a seal. I see Zetsu making seals and using Obito's power to revive Madara. Where there do we see that Madara was able to make seals, or even move? Not there, because he couldn't.

Chance has nothing to do with it if he can't be harmed and if he's not serious. I don't know why anyone brings chance or luck in an argument when Madara was literally waiting for that chance to happen. You're now questioning the entire mechanics of Madara's character in general but we don't have to digress so far because we'll agree that Kishimoto messed many things up.

It was chance, if Sasuke had finished Obito, what would Madara have done? Explain to me why Madara couldn't be harmed? Please, where does this come from? In fact, we've seen without any doubt that Madara could be harmed. So, no. At that very moment, he was being sealed. Madara waited because he didn't have any other choice. He was trapped, however, Obito had been defeated, and Zetsu was waiting in the wings to help out.

If Zetsu is his will, then Zetsu is him. Madara simply made himself an opportunity which he would use in the future. Madara was tough to kill even when he wasn't in his prime. Degrading him to the level of being defeated by some restrained technique while being depicted as not giving a damn is absurd to me. Even more so because he literally took Hashirama down in 3 panels once he got back alive.

I'm not even getting into an argument about whether Zetsu counts as Madara, he doesn't. And he was tough to handle at any point, and Hashirama handled him every time. I'm not degrading him. I'm saying he was once again defeated by the most powerful shinobi around using a technique similar to that used to attempt to restrain the Juubi. And he took Hashirama down after he'd supposedly gotten some increase in abilities and was suddenly free from his prison, something he obviously wasn't capable of before.

 

[Roman]

Which shows Madara had an ally available still to save him, doesn't change that he was already restrained, for all intents and purposes, defeated.



I don't see a seal. I see Zetsu making seals and using Obito's power to revive Madara. Where there do we see that Madara was able to make seals, or even move? Not there, because he couldn't.



It was chance, if Sasuke had finished Obito, what would Madara have done? Explain to me why Madara couldn't be harmed? Please, where does this come from? In fact, we've seen without any doubt that Madara could be harmed. So, no. At that very moment, he was being sealed. Madara waited because he didn't have any other choice. He was trapped, however, Obito had been defeated, and Zetsu was waiting in the wings to help out.



I'm not even getting into an argument about whether Zetsu counts as Madara, he doesn't. And he was tough to handle at any point, and Hashirama handled him every time. I'm not degrading him. I'm saying he was once again defeated by the most powerful shinobi around using a technique similar to that used to attempt to restrain the Juubi. And he took Hashirama down after he'd supposedly gotten some increase in abilities and was suddenly free from his prison, something he obviously wasn't capable of before.

Zetsu's purpose wasn't to save him. Zetsu's purpose was exactly what happened. Again, he wouldn't act so casually if he was in actual danger.

If that was true, Madara wouldn't shout the words. Usually, when someone shouts the words and names of a technique, a seal follows. Also, that picture shows how much Madara controlled Zetsu and what Zetsu was. If there wasn't any kind of connection, he wouldn't shout the technique in thin air.

This should be enough of a reason for "chance". The fact that Zetsu appeared immediately as Obito was about the use Rinne Tensei, means that Madara and Zetsu were always in contact, even at long distance. In any imminent threat, Zetsu could've appeared as well and take control of Obito's body to take him to safety.

He doesn't, but he's at Madara's mercy, he's his puppet, he created him. Madara would surely look more frustrated if he actually lost, instead of grinning and looking the other way. Hashirama was the most powerful shinobi ever but not anymore.

 

[Impossibility]

Zetsu's purpose wasn't to save him. Zetsu's purpose was exactly what happened. Again, he wouldn't act so casually if he was in actual danger.

You're kind of making my point here. His purpose wasn't to save him, and yet he had to.

If that was true, Madara wouldn't shout the words. Usually, when someone shouts the words and names of a technique, a seal follows. Also, that picture shows how much Madara controlled Zetsu and what Zetsu was. If there wasn't any kind of connection, he wouldn't shout the technique in thin air.

Shouting what? What does being able to speak have to do with anything? Usually a seal follows? And yet, there wasn't a seal because Madara wasn't in a position to use one. And being somehow connected to Zetsu changes what about Madara's defeat.

This should be enough of a reason for "chance". The fact that Zetsu appeared immediately as Obito was about the use Rinne Tensei, means that Madara and Zetsu were always in contact, even at long distance. In any imminent threat, Zetsu could've appeared as well and take control of Obito's body to take him to safety.

Nope, that's wrong. Madara himself stated that he would've had to have weakened Obito himself. Zetsu couldn't just pop up and overpower Obito at any given time. If Obito was still strong, he would have to be weakened, and if Obito was dead, then game's up.

He doesn't, but he's at Madara's mercy, he's his puppet, he created him. Madara would surely look more frustrated if he actually lost, instead of grinning and looking the other way. Hashirama was the most powerful shinobi ever but not anymore.

Is that supposed to change something? He isn't Madara. Madara is a villain, and as such has reactions like the ones we've seen. It seems pretty standard. He might not be anymore after Madara's sudden revival, but the manga suggests that he still was a few chapters ago.

 

[Roman]

You're kind of making my point here. His purpose wasn't to save him, and yet he had to.



Shouting what? What does being able to speak have to do with anything? Usually a seal follows? And yet, there wasn't a seal because Madara wasn't in a position to use one. And being somehow connected to Zetsu changes what about Madara's defeat.



Nope, that's wrong. Madara himself stated that he would've had to have weakened Obito himself. Zetsu couldn't just pop up and overpower Obito at any given time. If Obito was still strong, he would have to be weakened, and if Obito was dead, then game's up.



Is that supposed to change something? He isn't Madara. Madara is a villain, and as such has reactions like the ones we've seen. It seems pretty standard. He might not be anymore after Madara's sudden revival, but the manga suggests that he still was a few chapters ago.

No, he fulfilled his purpose which was exactly that as he said it himself.

Shouting the words wasn't meaningless. It can be, if someone chooses to read it like that. Being connected to Zetsu is the proof of why he was looking in other direction, as opposed to at Hashirama. Because he was connected, he was waiting for the exact moment to initiate the technique. And why was he able to causally wait for his opportunity smiling? Because he wasn't serious, he didn't worry about any danger because there wasn't one.

What does weakening Obito have to do with Madara being connected to Zetsu and thus knowing every detail and moment about Obito? Because he was connected to Zetsu, your argument about luck and chance doesn't add up since Madara knew every second in what state Obito was.

Yeah, it means that Zetsu was part of Madara's plan, just like Obito was and just like manga told us. The manga suggests that Madara screwed around until the moment he was revived. That's when he actually became serious and started neutralizing opponents. He took down Hashirama in 3 panels.

 

[ninjabot]

It worked out that way, but that was chance. If Sasuke had finished Obito, nothing would've happened. If anyone else for that matter had, it wouldn't have worked that way. If Obito hadn't been so thoroughly weakened, it wouldn't have worked out. There were a myriad of things that could have gone wrong. And Madara would've been on the cusp of being sealed being unable to do anything about it. Operating in such a manner after enacting a plan that would go on to span decades would just be plain stupid.

Madara was well aware of how much time he needed to force a weakened Obito to use Rinne Tensei, so I doubt he cared that Sasuke attacked him just like he didn't care when Minato bisected him with a kunai. Not to mention the fact that Madara, during everything that took place, was still having a telepathic conversation with Black Zetsu (as per flashbacks).

IF he were still orchestrating plans with Black Zetsu while all of this was happening (he was) AND he proved that he had the ability to completely immobilize Hashirama with his Inyoutono rods, which were stuck inside him during the fight (he did), then there's no reason to believe he lost because at ALL times during the fight he had both the ability to re-assign Zetsu's position aswell as completely defeat the opponent you somehow think he lost to.

This is likened to Sasuke fighting Itachi. We know that at any point Itachi COULD have murdered Sasuke with Susanoo, yet he didn't. But we don't claim that Sasuke won the fight because we know that Itachi was specifically waiting for Orochimaru to reveal himself, before he could die by Sasuke's hands. This is exactly like Madara specifically holding back against Hashirama when he could've one-shotted him with the Inyouton, but held back because he needed to allow Obito to thin the alliance herd before being weakened (eliminating his own need to weaken him).

Even more reasons why this analogy works? Multiple times during the fight between Sasuke and Itachi, Sasuke still managed to gain the upper hand because even the BEST laid plans don't account for everything. Madara's plan wasn't foolproof, but the fact that it could be manipulated on the fly thanks to his spy-in-waiting following his direct orders still counts as a successful plan, because it was all by his order in real-time.

The only way I think one could believe Hashirama won of his own volition is if the Inyouton rods were not stuck inside of him until after Madara had already been sealed. Which didn't happen. And even then, Madara still could manipulate chakra proven by the fact that he could still have telepathic conversations with Black Zetsu. That seal would have prevented such a thing from happening because his chakra wouldn't have been usable; proof of the seal's failing.

Madara threw that fight.

 

[Schabrak]

He took down Hashirama in 3 panels.

Circumstances... try looking at them for once. Hashirama had Madara in a locked down, but he himself couldn't do much anymore as he had half a dozen black rods in his whole body, immobilizing him, therefore it's wasn't a fair fight anymore after Madara resurrected himself. I'm not really sure how one can be so ignorant of facts and think that someone takes his opinion seriously...

 

[ninjabot]

No. The rods in Hashirama's back are proof that the fight was over BEFORE Madara was even sealed, because at any moment after that happened he could have simply forced Hashirama to stop fighting, proven by how effortlessly it was done when he was finished biding his time.

This isn't proof that they stalemated. It's proof that Madara chose not to end the fight when he could, because his plan didn't require he defeat Hashirama. In fact, his plans required he feign defeat long enough for Obito to be weakened.

 

[Roman]

Circumstances... try looking at them for once. Hashirama had Madara in a locked down, but he himself couldn't do much anymore as he had half a dozen black rods in his whole body, immobilizing him, therefore it's wasn't a fair fight anymore after Madara resurrected himself. I'm not really sure how one can be so ignorant of facts and think that someone takes his opinion seriously...

Isn't that going in my favor though? The fact that Madara stuck his rods in Hashirama goes together in the "plan" argument and makes it far more plausible. Madara placed the rods in him and played immobilized so he could get revived and take his Senjutsu. I'm guessing he couldn't do it as an Edo Tensei. It means that the fight was already over when he placed the rods in him, in a sense.

 

[Schabrak]

I'm done arguing with you. I disagree with your, to me skewed, way of interpretation of the happenings and that's it for me.

 

[ninjabot]

Isn't that going in my favor though? The fact that Madara stuck his rods in Hashirama goes together in the "plan" argument and makes it far more plausible.

This is absolutely correct. At any moment Madara could have simply snapped his fingers and ended he and Hashirama's fight, yet he CHOSE not to. If he had defeated Hashirama he would have revealed himself as a threat to Obito and then Obito would have shat on him. Prolonging he and Hashriama's fight worked toward his needs, not against them.

Madara placed the rods in him and played immobilized so he could get revived and take his Senjutsu. I'm guessing he couldn't do it as an Edo Tensei. It means that the fight was already over when he placed the rods in him, in a sense.

*nods* Just like I said against badluckartist, this would be like watching a fight between Professor X and Wolverine. Even if Logan's stitting there kicking his ass we know for a fact the only reason it's happening is because Xavier won't simply "turn him off" with a simple thought. Meaning that Wolverine's victory isn't a victory.

The exact same thing happens here. One ninja with the power to end a fight, chooses not to. Now, if you guys want to say "Madara lost the fight because he forfeit the fight intentionally so that his plans would come to fruition", that'd be fine.

Since that's exactly what happened.

 

[Schabrak]

Take into consideration that Hashirama not being able to physically move has something to do with a fully powered and freed Madara, not a crippled/nearley sealed Madara. Hashirama did not have to move to keep Madara down, he would only need that, if he was physically attacked.

Stop twisting things please.

 

[ninjabot]

Nothing's twisted. It didn't take any movements for Madara to completely immobilize Hashirama. Just the will to do so (as Inyouton is literally that: Madara's will).

Ending the fight between the two of them was as simple as a "Yes" or "no" command. Madara simply waited for the opportune time for said command to be given.

http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/657/5 Not a single handseal, movement, or even a LOOK (since he has no fucking eyes) in Hashirama's direction, and yet he is completely immobile, showing "wobble" marks from his body attempting to do so.

What YOU'RE grasping at is this scene however:http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/657/7 When Madara forms a handseal and Hashirama complains about not being able to move. That handseal we saw there was not for Inyouton to perform it's feats (remember, Nagato never used a seal when his rods did their thing, so Madara doesn't have to either). That handseal was either to prepare his chakra absorbtion, or allow him to sense out Hashirama in order to locate him (Madara had no Senjutsu yet so he couldn't just sense out Hashirama otherwise). I'm going with the chakra absorbtion because he drew blood beforehand.

 

[Rikudou King]

For all intents and purposes Madara was defeated. I'm not debating semantics. The entire reason this was brought up was to point out that moments before Hashirama could still outmatch Madara. And the evidence that he couldn't bring down Hashirama is the fact that he was on his knees, trapped, and Hashirama was the one that put him there. Defeating Madara is no simple feat, but Hashirama has done it on multiple occasions, I don't see why this was any different.

There isn’t anything to debate because it’s not semantics. I pointed out several examples of why that’s not the case at all. And there isn’t any evidence that he couldn’t have brought down Hashirama, simply because he didn’t have a need to do so at that point. His entire plan was working without him having to lift a finger, why would he interfere and actually risk something? Defeating Madara wasn’t a simple feat, which is the entire point. Twice Hashirama literally had to fight him to exhaustion, and even then it was barely a win. Yet now you wish to claim that Hashirama could have simply used his wooden dragon or tori seals and won easily? It just doesn’t work, especially since neither of those are unbeatable. The Kyuubi, who’s physically weak against Mokuton, could still fight against it and Naruto had no trouble escaping. Madara is far more powerful than them.

What do any of those things have to do with his battle against Hashirama? I wonder if you realise that most of those 'feints' as you put them came at the tail end of some sort of defeat, and when he couldn't do much about it. His ace presumed a lot. And if he could defeat Hashirama without it, he would've. And I've little clue where this argument about Obito being the only one able to hurt him comes from.

You claim that Madara would have only been in that position if he had no other choice and the point is that’s not true. And I wonder do you realize that he could in fact have still done much: he could have revealed his Sharingan well before that point to actually win against Hashirama, he could have allowed Hashirama to kill himself and then got right back up and kept going, since he clearly wasn’t as weaken as he pretended, he could have fought Hashirama then and there or simply accepted helping him be Hokage, and he could have struck Konoha upon Hashirama’s death or at any point in time before he became confined to his cave. He’s always had options. Black Zetsu didn’t presume much of anything. The only thing he had to be worried about was the slight possibility of being sensed, which still wouldn’t have prevented him from actually helping Madara if needed. Not when there was no need, which is the entire point. You previously spoke about risks, and how he somehow was risking something against Hashirama. But Hashirama was incapable of actually doing anything to defeat him, meaning there wasn’t any risk in that situation. Meanwhile, Obito with his Onmyoton could have actually eliminated him even in the Edo Tensei state. So as far as risks go, it was clearly less of a risk to pretend to be down and allow the Alliance to take all the risk against Obito. Not only did he get a weaken Obito without any danger to himself, but all the Bijuus all ready for him at the same time.

It was pretty obvious through the chapter, the fact that the Kyuubi was even able to break loose and attack should make it clear that her hold wasn't certain. As for Obito, I was referring to his difficulty in keeping control of the bijuu, for example when Kokuo tried to attack Obito. What you're showing is Tobi taking in six bijuus that are already under his control through the rods and their revived jins. As for Susanoo, what new techniques has Madara's Susanoo granted him? And Sasuke's Enton has nothing to do with an advancement in Susanoo. It's one of his MS abilities. I know you know better than that.

It happen because she began to cough up blood, since as mentioned, she was already nearly dead and out of chakra. The fact that it only happen then completely goes against your argument, otherwise it shouldn’t have taken the Kyuubi that long to break loose against someone, as already said, that was half dead and nearly out of chakra. The sheer fact that she could still contain the Kyuubi in such a situation shows how simple it was for her. This discussion began about the chakra chains, which is why I showed that example. When the Gobi broke control, Obito used the chakra chains to take it back. The chakra chains were not the sole method of control that Obito was using, or even the first method. It does have to do with his Susanoo’s advancement. His complete version gained an orb of Enton flames and a blade, abilities the lower versions lack even though he has still used them after first gaining that complete version. Every time we have seen his complete version, it has possessed those abilities. And it’s not as if they’re applied by Sasuke himself, because as mentioned, it’s only in the complete version and not on any of the lower versions even after it first appeared.

And I'm sure if you'd though about it for a second you would've realised that I was referencing the entirety of the allied forces when I mentioned tens of thousands, I didn't say 80,000 because by the time Madara popped up I'm certain a lot of them were already out of action. The mere fact that you tried to deflect on that rather than the fact that we only saw Madara take on a few hundred shinobi says enough.

Why would I think that when this whole discussion had been solely about Gaara’s division? By the second day, half the Alliance had been killed, though that didn’t apply to Gaara’s division because they didn’t entre combat til that second day. Regardless, none of that changes my claim, that Madara was already capable of solo’ing a good portion of the alliance with just his Sharingan. If anything, the number of survivors at this point shouldn’t be more than two divisions worth, meaning he’s more than capable of taking them all on at once.

It was chance, if Sasuke had finished Obito, what would Madara have done? Explain to me why Madara couldn't be harmed? Please, where does this come from? In fact, we've seen without any doubt that Madara could be harmed. So, no. At that very moment, he was being sealed. Madara waited because he didn't have any other choice. He was trapped, however, Obito had been defeated, and Zetsu was waiting in the wings to help out.

The same thing. Are you forgetting that thanks to the Rinnegan, Madara can control the dead? Obito was already basically a Path, he already had the control rods in him as we saw the last time Madara controlled him. If anything, Sasuke killing Obito would have just made it easier, since Madara wouldn’t have had to deal with Obito’s willpower fighting against him like before. And Sai’s seal wasn’t working. It was being resisted, as it’s normally instantaneous as showed with Kisame’s master.

 

[Impossibility]

No, he fulfilled his purpose which was exactly that as he said it himself.

Which was to take control of Obito's power and revive him, saving him from imminent sealing wasn't on the table.

Shouting the words wasn't meaningless. It can be, if someone chooses to read it like that. Being connected to Zetsu is the proof of why he was looking in other direction, as opposed to at Hashirama. Because he was connected, he was waiting for the exact moment to initiate the technique. And why was he able to causally wait for his opportunity smiling? Because he wasn't serious, he didn't worry about any danger because there wasn't one.

I'm not disputing that he's connected to Zetsu. I'm disputing your claim that Madara himself was in a position to do something without Zetsu's intervention. You outright stated that Madara could do seals, suggesting he could get out of Hashirama's trap, yet there isn't anything suggesting that was the case.

What does weakening Obito have to do with Madara being connected to Zetsu and thus knowing every detail and moment about Obito? Because he was connected to Zetsu, your argument about luck and chance doesn't add up since Madara knew every second in what state Obito was.

Because regardless of his connection with Zetsu, if Obito hadn't been weakened so thoroughly, Zetsu wouldn't have been able to take control to revive Madara. A sequence of events over which Madara had no control allowed Zetsu to revive him.

Yeah, it means that Zetsu was part of Madara's plan, just like Obito was and just like manga told us. The manga suggests that Madara screwed around until the moment he was revived. That's when he actually became serious and started neutralizing opponents. He took down Hashirama in 3 panels.

Which somehow changes that before that plan Madara was brought down once again by Hashirama how? The manga doesn't suggest that Madara screwed around. He brought down Hashirama in 3 panels after getting a boost in power from his revival and being freed of a trap in which he was constrained. The mere fact that he took down Hashirama as soon as he had an opportunity would indicate that he couldn't do it before.

Madara was well aware of how much time he needed to force a weakened Obito to use Rinne Tensei, so I doubt he cared that Sasuke attacked him just like he didn't care when Minato bisected him with a kunai. Not to mention the fact that Madara, during everything that took place, was still having a telepathic conversation with Black Zetsu (as per flashbacks).

And yet we've seen that it would take longer than it would take Sasuke or anyone else there to kill Obito in the state he was. A moment would be enough.

IF he were still orchestrating plans with Black Zetsu while all of this was happening (he was) AND he proved that he had the ability to completely immobilize Hashirama with his Inyoutono rods, which were stuck inside him during the fight (he did), then there's no reason to believe he lost because at ALL times during the fight he had both the ability to re-assign Zetsu's position aswell as completely defeat the opponent you somehow think he lost to.

Yet, he wouldn't have been able to do that if Zetsu's intervention hadn't revived him and simultaneouslt freed him from Hashirama's justu.

This is likened to Sasuke fighting Itachi. We know that at any point Itachi COULD have murdered Sasuke with Susanoo, yet he didn't. But we don't claim that Sasuke won the fight because we know that Itachi was specifically waiting for Orochimaru to reveal himself, before he could die by Sasuke's hands. This is exactly like Madara specifically holding back against Hashirama when he could've one-shotted him with the Inyouton, but held back because he needed to allow Obito to thin the alliance herd before being weakened (eliminating his own need to weaken him).

Even more reasons why this analogy works? Multiple times during the fight between Sasuke and Itachi, Sasuke still managed to gain the upper hand because even the BEST laid plans don't account for everything. Madara's plan wasn't foolproof, but the fact that it could be manipulated on the fly thanks to his spy-in-waiting following his direct orders still counts as a successful plan, because it was all by his order in real-time.

The difference is Itachi didn't want to bring down Sasuke, ever. As opposed to Madara, who took the earliest opportunity to bring down Hashirama after he was revived and freed.

The only way I think one could believe Hashirama won of his own volition is if the Inyouton rods were not stuck inside of him until after Madara had already been sealed. Which didn't happen. And even then, Madara still could manipulate chakra proven by the fact that he could still have telepathic conversations with Black Zetsu. That seal would have prevented such a thing from happening because his chakra wouldn't have been usable; proof of the seal's failing.

Madara threw that fight.

This changes nothing. Maybe immediately after Madara got the rods into Hashirama he restrained him. Maybe he simply never got an opportunity. The reality is that the manga showed that Madara was about to be sealed, Hashirama had him restrained. You're arguing that he simply allowed this to happen, but this would be completely illogical from Madara's standpoint, and inconsistent with what we've seen from him.

There isn’t anything to debate because it’s not semantics. I pointed out several examples of why that’s not the case at all. And there isn’t any evidence that he couldn’t have brought down Hashirama, simply because he didn’t have a need to do so at that point. His entire plan was working without him having to lift a finger, why would he interfere and actually risk something? Defeating Madara wasn’t a simple feat, which is the entire point. Twice Hashirama literally had to fight him to exhaustion, and even then it was barely a win. Yet now you wish to claim that Hashirama could have simply used his wooden dragon or tori seals and won easily? It just doesn’t work, especially since neither of those are unbeatable. The Kyuubi, who’s physically weak against Mokuton, could still fight against it and Naruto had no trouble escaping. Madara is far more powerful than them.

The fact that he couldn't move would speaks for itself. And the fact that at the earliest opportunity he decided to bring down Hashirama speaks for itself. I've zero clue where the mention of the wooden dragon comes from, and at no point did I suggest Hashirama defeated Madara defeated easily. Not once. I simply said that Madara was defeated.

You claim that Madara would have only been in that position if he had no other choice and the point is that’s not true. And I wonder do you realize that he could in fact have still done much: he could have revealed his Sharingan well before that point to actually win against Hashirama, he could have allowed Hashirama to kill himself and then got right back up and kept going, since he clearly wasn’t as weaken as he pretended, he could have fought Hashirama then and there or simply accepted helping him be Hokage, and he could have struck Konoha upon Hashirama’s death or at any point in time before he became confined to his cave. He’s always had options. Black Zetsu didn’t presume much of anything. The only thing he had to be worried about was the slight possibility of being sensed, which still wouldn’t have prevented him from actually helping Madara if needed. Not when there was no need, which is the entire point. You previously spoke about risks, and how he somehow was risking something against Hashirama. But Hashirama was incapable of actually doing anything to defeat him, meaning there wasn’t any risk in that situation. Meanwhile, Obito with his Onmyoton could have actually eliminated him even in the Edo Tensei state. So as far as risks go, it was clearly less of a risk to pretend to be down and allow the Alliance to take all the risk against Obito. Not only did he get a weaken Obito without any danger to himself, but all the Bijuus all ready for him at the same time.

Probably still would've lost. Allowing Hashirma to kill himself would've been very unlikely to save Madara's life; he would still be exhausted, weakened, and surrounded by a bunch of shinobi who would've finished the job. And who knows what state Madara was in at the time of Hashirama's death; he could've attacked Konoha, and he probably would've died in the process. He had options, but the ones that preserved his life or offered any benefit to him were few, or one. There was a benefit to him with those decisions, and a reduction in risk. The feint you're proposing offered no benefits, while simultaneously increasing the risk to him, which would be completely illogical. I wasn't suggesting Zetsu, the ace, presumed a lot. I was referring to the way in which he decided to play the 'card'. And Hashirama restrained him, he was in the process of being sealed. So that's just wrong.

It happen because she began to cough up blood, since as mentioned, she was already nearly dead and out of chakra. The fact that it only happen then completely goes against your argument, otherwise it shouldn’t have taken the Kyuubi that long to break loose against someone, as already said, that was half dead and nearly out of chakra. The sheer fact that she could still contain the Kyuubi in such a situation shows how simple it was for her. This discussion began about the chakra chains, which is why I showed that example. When the Gobi broke control, Obito used the chakra chains to take it back. The chakra chains were not the sole method of control that Obito was using, or even the first method.

And what you fail to grasp is she still only managed to mostly contain him, someone who was tailor-made for the task. And if a simple cough can make such an issue of things, surely Madara needs to be focused on this task, as I suggested. She was exceptional and that was the best she could do. I was speaking generally about Obito. Him bringing in the bijuus isn't much of an issue because they were already under his control. I was simply showing that he struggled to keep them in control even with the tools he had available.

It does have to do with his Susanoo’s advancement. His complete version gained an orb of Enton flames and a blade, abilities the lower versions lack even though he has still used them after first gaining that complete version. Every time we have seen his complete version, it has possessed those abilities. And it’s not as if they’re applied by Sasuke himself, because as mentioned, it’s only in the complete version and not on any of the lower versions even after it first appeared.

No it doesn't. Sasuke can place Enton wherever he so chooses, small Susanoo or even a few ribs, as he showed against A when he first whipped out a Susanoo. It has nothing to do with an advancement of Susanoo. And I'm going to take the blaring silence on Madara as him not showing any new 'abilities; with his Susanoo,

Why would I think that when this whole discussion had been solely about Gaara’s division? By the second day, half the Alliance had been killed, though that didn’t apply to Gaara’s division because they didn’t entre combat til that second day. Regardless, none of that changes my claim, that Madara was already capable of solo’ing a good portion of the alliance with just his Sharingan. If anything, the number of survivors at this point shouldn’t be more than two divisions worth, meaning he’s more than capable of taking them all on at once.

Well, considering the discussion began with Madara v the entire alliance, it should be pretty easy to figure out. It only dwelled into this when you pointed to this battle as evidence that Madara should be able to handle it. Except you haven't shown him taking on a good portion of the alliance, I've seen a couple hundred, pretty short of the mark.

The same thing. Are you forgetting that thanks to the Rinnegan, Madara can control the dead? Obito was already basically a Path, he already had the control rods in him as we saw the last time Madara controlled him. If anything, Sasuke killing Obito would have just made it easier, since Madara wouldn’t have had to deal with Obito’s willpower fighting against him like before. And Sai’s seal wasn’t working. It was being resisted, as it’s normally instantaneous as showed with Kisame’s master.

Except Obito would be dead, and he'd be under Hashirama's seals. So, no it wouldn't. It was being resisted? Seriously? Because there's a panel where the tiger latches onto Madara, followed by a panel with Sai saying things are going well, and then Rinne Tensei. So, no.

 

[Prince Sasuke]

If Madara was restrained by the dragon, how was he able to stop Naruto's resengan from turning him to dust?

If Madara was immobilize by the barrier, how was he able to break free with little effort after being revived?

When have you ever seen a edo look in worst shape the Hashirama after the rods were put in his back?