Shounen Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto

[Roman]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

You seem to be missing M3J's point. Or at least you're purposefully ignoring it. I'm not him, but this is what I glean from his post:

M3J is clearly referencing the war, in and of itself. He's even agreed with what you are saying overall. No one wants to murder beautiful, sentient creatures if they don't have to. In terms of the war, and using your examples, "Russia" already has most of the "nuclear weapons". Because in this case, there is a finite amount. "Russia" in this case is also only two people, who've already expressed a desire to use these nukes for their gain. You can't say everyone in Russia or any village is an immediate threat, because only two people (Tobi and Madara) have the means and power to acquire the nukes and use them as they see fit.

"Russia" (or Tobi and Madara) is also the only country with the immediate means to not only take the other countries nukes (i.e. Naruto and Bee), but have also expressed the desire to use those nukes to wipe out everyone, by merging all of those nukes together into one ultimate mega unstoppable nuke.

Now, let's say the nukes are happy little creatures and everyone loves them. Whatever, fine and dandy. But let's also say that someone can press a button and make all of the nukes disappear without having anyone die in the process, knowing beforehand that the nukes will return eventually.

I think what M3J is getting at is that:

1. It stops the immediate real threat, which is Russia (i.e. Tobi and Madara). If they can't merge the nukes, they can't create the ultra mega nuke.

He's not saying this is the ONLY method towards peace. It's a very real method towards immediate peace, in that it stops Russia from creating a mega nuke, and thus makes the chances of defeating Russia much, much easier. He's saying that it's a very logical step towards defeating Russia. I mean, Tobi and Madara. It just so happens that an added benefit would be peace, because if there are no more nukes, then there are no more wars over control of the nukes. Because who knows how long the nukes will be gone for? But people are fickle and nothing is guaranteed.


You both agree with each other, but it just so happens M3J can objectively look at both sides of the argument.
I think you can, too, but you seem to be arguing just for the sake of it.

The logic applies to the village as well, because if only two people who are in charge of the village want to go to war, immediately every shinobi/military soldier becomes a tool of war, regardless of having Bijuu/nukes at all, so that argument doesn't hold any ground.

Of course, and this is what Invader implied. The nukes/Bijuu as a means of war means only a reduction in damage, but not stopping the doing of the war overall.

The nukes are neutral in your argument as well as I pointed out. The immediate threat is the one who presses the button. If the nukes/Bijuu perish, the one who persists with the war will find another "nuke/Bijuu".

1. This is where I don't agree with him because stopping the seemingly immediate threat just because there's a risk of someone wanting to use it is not logical specially because the matter of fact is a being with conscious. The time period doesn't matter here because if someone wants to wage war, it will happen regardless of weapons available.

The immediate peace is an illusion here if we don't know when someone will want to make a war. The only thing I agree with him is the fact that the Russia/Madara would be dealt much easier if the nukes/Bijuu are not present. That's cool. But the problem lies in the fact that they're conscious and intelligent, beings with the ability to reason who want nothing else but peace. This is why I touched the system of value, morals and empathy/compassion. Logical step would be to destroy the nukes/Bijuu, but at what cost if you don't have any guarantee that no one will try to do the same thing again? In the nukes matter, you risk a potential war with the country just so you could get rid of the nukes, and in the Bijuu matter, you practically execute a being like you'd be executing an innocent human.

 

[M3J]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

Let's try this. For example, don't pay attention to the current crisis with Russia and Ukraine, but Russia does have nuclear weapons that could theoretically kill any country they want. In this manga, Russia is any village that has a Bijuu as a nuclear weapon. Now, why doesn't any country see potential threat in nuclear weapons that Russia holds? Because there's not a single person in Russia who'd use it against another country (although Putin might be the one). The same principle goes in the story with Bijuu and the villages. The comparison is exact and there shouldn't be any problems grasping this. In other words, by your logic, to secure the world from potentially going to war, the whole world would have to attack Russia. But that seems preposterous now, doesn't it?

---------- Post added at 09:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 PM ----------



This is your response to that post? You have a firm mindset that the Bijuu are solely responsible for people's hatred in their hearts. That's completely and utterly false. The immediate threat you're talking about is every shinobi in a respective village if that village wants to wage war. Do you get it? A single shinobi is a tool of war as much as a Bijuu is, if someone wants to start it. There is no peace as long as someone wants to start a war.

Your logic tells us that the extermination is the only way to go, which is ironic because that's the very idea that this manga wants to avoid and it's the sole reason hatred, wars and chaos lasted that long, along with the fact that it's the complete opposite of how the real life works.

What are you talking about? Exodi explained it well. Are you ignoring where I agreed people are the problem, not the bijuu? Or that I'm talking about TOBI AND MADARA'S PLANS that would at teh least, be delayed? There is no other nuke or bijuu that Tobi or Madara can get their hands on, cuz if there were, they would be going after the other nuke too.

There is no peace either if Tobi or Madara wins and puts people in their genjutsu. My logic tells us that killing the bijuu or finding SOME WAY to put them out of Tobi or Madara's hands is the only way to solve the current problem. Let me break it down for you again:


bijuu was part of Juubi, the single most powerful thing in existence

bad guys want Juubi to put people in genjutsu

bad guys need bijuu to make Juubi

• spare bijuu, bad guys can get bijuu
  
  bad guys getting bijuu means bijuu revived, bad guy become jinchuuriki, much powerful
  
  bad guy's plan succeeds because there's no plot armor, people under genjutsu

or

• kill bijuu, bad guys can't get bijuu
  
  no bijuu means no juubi, bad guys don't get super power
  
  without super power, bad guys are easier to kill
  
  the bijuu REGENERATE
  
  while bijuu regenerate, good guys establish peace forever
  
  bijuu finish regenerating, peace forever between everyone and chakra beings

Which one sounds better? Bijuu cannot truly die, as the manga says. However, humans die and cannot come back to life naturally. I honestly don't know why I'm wasting time arguing with you given we're not on the same page. You're arguing about the shinobi world and peace, while I'm talking about the war, and preventing the bad guys from winning. You also seem to not take under consideration that bijuu can regenerate, if the manga is true.

Honestly, it's like you're arguing about religion and politics, and I'm arguing about science vs. religion.

 

[Roman]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

What are you talking about? Exodi explained it well. Are you ignoring where I agreed people are the problem, not the bijuu? Or that I'm talking about TOBI AND MADARA'S PLANS that would at teh least, be delayed? There is no other nuke or bijuu that Tobi or Madara can get their hands on, cuz if there were, they would be going after the other nuke too.

There is no peace either if Tobi or Madara wins and puts people in their genjutsu. My logic tells us that killing the bijuu or finding SOME WAY to put them out of Tobi or Madara's hands is the only way to solve the current problem. Let me break it down for you again:


bijuu was part of Juubi, the single most powerful thing in existence

bad guys want Juubi to put people in genjutsu

bad guys need bijuu to make Juubi

• spare bijuu, bad guys can get bijuu
  
  bad guys getting bijuu means bijuu revived, bad guy become jinchuuriki, much powerful
  
  bad guy's plan succeeds because there's no plot armor, people under genjutsu

or

• kill bijuu, bad guys can't get bijuu
  
  no bijuu means no juubi, bad guys don't get super power
  
  without super power, bad guys are easier to kill
  
  the bijuu REGENERATE
  
  while bijuu regenerate, good guys establish peace forever
  
  bijuu finish regenerating, peace forever between everyone and chakra beings

Which one sounds better? Bijuu cannot truly die, as the manga says. However, humans die and cannot come back to life naturally. I honestly don't know why I'm wasting time arguing with you given we're not on the same page. You're arguing about the shinobi world and peace, while I'm talking about the war, and preventing the bad guys from winning. You also seem to not take under consideration that bijuu can regenerate, if the manga is true.

Honestly, it's like you're arguing about religion and politics, and I'm arguing about science vs. religion.

You think it's okay to murder Bijuu, I disagree with that. What's so hard to understand, honestly?

I never ignored anything. I'm trying to explain why it would be wrong to execute a conscious being, why that action alone is wrong. Not just for moral and emphatic reason but logical as well. You would destroy everything Naruto stands for and it would be for nothing because there would always be a potential threat of waging war regardless of the weapons. And if you destroy something that Naruto stands for, and real life as well, you would never have peace.

You think the act of killing them would be erased if they could regenerate? I think you know how wrong that is.

 

[Exodi]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

You think it's okay to murder Bijuu, I disagree with that. What's so hard to understand, honestly?

I never ignored anything. I'm trying to explain why it would be wrong to execute a conscious being, why that action alone is wrong. Not just for moral and emphatic reason but logical as well. You would destroy everything Naruto stands for and it would be for nothing because there would always be a potential threat of waging war regardless of the weapons. And if you destroy something that Naruto stands for, and real life as well, you would never have peace.

You think the act of killing them would be erased if they could regenerate? I think you know how wrong that is.

So, because people are going to wage war against each other anyway, they shouldn't try to get rid of extremely powerful beings that can (and have been) used as weapons and will regenerate even if they die?

So, because Naruto says so, it's more logical to let a super powerful zombie become an even more powerful, immortal human?
Instead of potentially stopping him by getting rid of the objects that are directly related to him becoming an almighty, evil immortal?

I'm sure M3J agrees killing the bijuu is "wrong". I do, too. Like I said, no one would kill them if it weren't necessary. But that's not the point.
And it kind of is necessary.

The point is whether or not killing the beasts would put a stop to Tobi and Madara's plan.
Logically, I think it would. Or at least hinder them.

The humans in this manga can't come back to life. The bijuu can. Killing the bijuu is a tactic.
It's a war. Bad and immoral stuff will happen. It sounds bad but in a war, sometimes logic > morality.

Unless you are Naruto and you have the power to throw logic out like a bag of rotten trash.

 

[Roman]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

So, because people are going to wage war against each other anyway, they shouldn't try to get rid of extremely powerful beings that can (and have been) used as weapons and will regenerate even if they die?

So, because Naruto says so, it's more logical to let a super powerful zombie become an even more powerful, immortal human?
Instead of potentially stopping him by getting rid of the objects that are directly related to him becoming an almighty, evil immortal?

I'm sure M3J agrees killing the bijuu is "wrong". I do, too. Like I said, no one would kill them if it weren't necessary. But that's not the point.
And it kind of is necessary.

The point is whether or not killing the beasts would put a stop to Tobi and Madara's plan.
Logically, I think it would. Or at least hinder them.

The humans in this manga can't come back to life. The bijuu can. Killing the bijuu is a tactic.
It's a war. Bad and immoral stuff will happen. It sounds bad but in a war, sometimes logic > morality.

Unless you are Naruto and you have the power to throw logic out like a bag of rotten trash.

Of course. That's equivalent to killing innocent humans.

Not just Naruto, that's how the real life works as well, which is why I brought Russia in the first place.
That's the problem, they're not objects, immediatelly if they have conscious and are benevolent in nature. It's not their fault because someone wants to use them.

No, it's not, obviously. You're reading the manga, right?

I agree, it would. But it would be wrong morally, like I said many times.

The Bijuu could be used tactically in Alliance's favor rather than kill them first. Which is exactly what happened with Naruto.
I don't know if logic can be associated with the mere fact that Naruto equipped them and is now using them, or rather fighting with them, for the right cause.

 

[Rarhyx]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

M3J pretty much says for something big (in this case peace/delaying madman's and tobi's plan) something has to be sacrificed. well, in this case you can't really say "sacrifice" because the bijuu will come back. for the moment it looks horrible because you would "kill" a bijuu. actually you are just fucking up madman's and tobi's plan with let's say putting a cooldown on a bijuu and not really kill it.

I'm with M3J(or sasuke in the manga case).

 

[M3J]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

You think it's okay to murder Bijuu, I disagree with that. What's so hard to understand, honestly?

I never ignored anything. I'm trying to explain why it would be wrong to execute a conscious being, why that action alone is wrong. Not just for moral and emphatic reason but logical as well. You would destroy everything Naruto stands for and it would be for nothing because there would always be a potential threat of waging war regardless of the weapons. And if you destroy something that Naruto stands for, and real life as well, you would never have peace.

You think the act of killing them would be erased if they could regenerate? I think you know how wrong that is.

At this point, I get the feeling you're trolling. Either that or you really don't understand. If you think it's more moralistic and logical to keep the bijuu alive so the bad guys can succeed and kill more people while putting the rest under a genjutsu, then there's no point in continuing.

Yes, because they can regenerate. It's better to kill seven beings that can regenerate rather than have more shinobi killed and innocent people put under genjutsu because the bad guys gained immense powerups and are virtually unbeatable. I'm also confident that had Naruto been okay with killing the bijuu or not cared, you wouldn't even be bothering to protect the bijuu.

Yes, because they can regenerate. It's better to kill seven beings that can regenerate rather than have more shinobi killed and innocent people put under genjutsu because the bad guys gained immense powerups and are virtually unbeatable. I'm also confident that had Naruto been okay with killing the bijuu or not cared, you wouldn't even be bothering to protect the bijuu.

 

[Roman]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

At this point, I get the feeling you're trolling. Either that or you really don't understand. If you think it's more moralistic and logical to keep the bijuu alive so the bad guys can succeed and kill more people while putting the rest under a genjutsu, then there's no point in continuing.

Yes, because they can regenerate. It's better to kill seven beings that can regenerate rather than have more shinobi killed and innocent people put under genjutsu because the bad guys gained immense powerups and are virtually unbeatable. I'm also confident that had Naruto been okay with killing the bijuu or not cared, you wouldn't even be bothering to protect the bijuu.

The feeling is mutual.

The second paragraph tells me that you don't understand that Bijuu are equal to human beings. They can talk, they can feel emotion, they can defend the country they live for. They're the same as shinobi. That's what you don't understand.

Another one of your problems is that you think I'm defending them because of Naruto, which is ridiculous and further proving that you have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about.

 

[Rarhyx]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

Unlike bijuus, humans cant regenerate when they are killed. So whats so bad in taking them out of the game for a short time?

 

[Roman]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

Unlike bijuus, humans cant regenerate when they are killed. So whats so bad in taking them out of the game for a short time?

That opinion is the same as Madara's. If Naruto was to agree to kill the Bijuu, there would be no understanding, no empathy. Bijuu would be left misunderstood and the cycle of hatred wouldn't be closed, it would leave an open hole for another idiot to wage hatred or war all over again. There's a lot deeper meaning in that which I'm trying to explain here but it seems I'm not getting through. If your path was right, there would be no compassion, Naruto and the Alliance would succumb to the mercy of power all over again, which is exactly what the world is trying to avoid and get rid of now.

 

[ninjabot]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

Bijuu aren't equal to humans. With the exception of those of Uchiha and Senju lineage and the occasional kage, no ninja can compete with a Bijuu. Bijuu are also in a sense immortal, and killing them is little more than a minor inconvenience.

There've been SO many people okay with Tobirama's handling of the Uchiha clan, explaining it away as a necessary evil to keep the overall peace, never taking into consideration how it affected the Uchiha. So why can't they do the same for the Bijuu? Hell, if murdering the entire Uchiha clan based on what they MIGHT do is acceptable, why isn't temporarily killing the Bijuu off for something they MIGHT do also okay?

I'll be honest with everyone here: I place humanity above animals when it comes to worth of life. I love my cat and both my dogs, but I'll never put their needs above that of say my brother or my mom. Even if they could talk. And if they could talk AND return from the dead, I'd care even less.

 

[Roman]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

Bijuu aren't equal to humans. With the exception of those of Uchiha and Senju lineage and the occasional kage, no ninja can compete with a Bijuu. Bijuu are also in a sense immortal, and killing them is little more than a minor inconvenience.

There've been SO many people okay with Tobirama's handling of the Uchiha clan, explaining it away as a necessary evil to keep the overall peace, never taking into consideration how it affected the Uchiha. So why can't they do the same for the Bijuu? Hell, if murdering the entire Uchiha clan based on what they MIGHT do is acceptable, why isn't temporarily killing the Bijuu off for something they MIGHT do also okay?

I'll be honest with everyone here: I place humanity above animals when it comes to worth of life. I love my cat and both my dogs, but I'll never put their needs above that of say my brother or my mom. Even if they could talk. And if they could talk AND return from the dead, I'd care even less.

Disagreed.

I'm not okay with how Tobirama handled the Uchiha. He disregarded their point of view and it looked like they were forced to do what he had in mind. If they did something simple, like talking to them and understanding their state of mind, Itachi wouldn't need to resort to such despicable act.

Of course your family is in the first place. But what about if your dog could talk, understand your feelings and give you comfort next to your friend who maybe can't do those same things?

 

[M3J]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

The feeling is mutual.

The second paragraph tells me that you don't understand that Bijuu are equal to human beings. They can talk, they can feel emotion, they can defend the country they live for. They're the same as shinobi. That's what you don't understand.

Another one of your problems is that you think I'm defending them because of Naruto, which is ridiculous and further proving that you have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about.

So, here's what I interpret what you're saying:

Bijuu are sentient beings whose only fault lies in being surrounded by violent shinobi who see them as nothing more than weapons. Peace can be achieved between the two if shinobi achieve peace amongst themselves. I agree. I said this.


What you're also saying:

Letting hundreds and thousands of shinobi die (can't come back to life) and putting the rest into an eternal genjutsu is okay and a necessary sacrifice to keep seven bijuu alive despite the fact that they can regenerate. I disagree. This is where the issue lies. You're saying it's okay to let thousands of shinobi die just so seven bijuu can be alive.

No, I'm pretty sure. Did you or Invader have any issue with the shinobi seemingly trying to kill the Juubi or the bijuu before Naruto said to not kill them? As far as I recall, no one stood up for the bijuu until Naruto told Sasuke to not kill the bijuu, and Sasuke wanted to do it anyway. I dunno about you, but I also fully know that Invader would have supported killing the bijuu IF Naruto said yes, but Sasuke said no. If you were against killing bijuu before Naruto said anything, then my bad. But Naruto's way is illogical, unless he had a way to put the bijuu far out of Tobi and Madara's reach without killing them.

My argument is preventing the bijuu getting into the hands of Tobi and Madara. If Naruto had a way to send the bijuu far away where Madara or Tobi couldn't get to them, I'd support Naruto because his way would be logical and good for all sides, unless either bad guys could get to the bijuu.

That opinion is the same as Madara's. If Naruto was to agree to kill the Bijuu, there would be no understanding, no empathy. Bijuu would be left misunderstood and the cycle of hatred wouldn't be closed, it would leave an open hole for another idiot to wage hatred or war all over again. There's a lot deeper meaning in that which I'm trying to explain here but it seems I'm not getting through. If your path was right, there would be no compassion, Naruto and the Alliance would succumb to the mercy of power all over again, which is exactly what the world is trying to avoid and get rid of now.

This makes no sense. There would be understanding because the bijuu would know that Naruto and Sasuke killed them to delay the bad guys' plans. They'd be thankful because the bijuu would not have become part of Juubi, and they'd regenerate. The bijuu would not be left misunderstood, nor would the cycle remain open. Naruto can try to close the cycle and tell people to stop using bijuu as weapons while the bijuu are regenerating, as I have said.

I don't understand how they would succumb to power when Naruto and others can easily travel the world and tell people to stop using the bijuu as weapons because they have feelings. The bijuu would not need to be with Naruto or anyone else, they could frolic in the toads' home. The main point is, Tobi and Madara's plans would fail for the moment, at the very least, and it would prevent more lives from being lost.

---------- Post added at 01:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:56 PM ----------

Disagreed.

I'm not okay with how Tobirama handled the Uchiha. He disregarded their point of view and it looked like they were forced to do what he had in mind. If they did something simple, like talking to them and understanding their state of mind, Itachi wouldn't need to resort to such despicable act.

Of course your family is in the first place. But what about if your dog could talk, understand your feelings and give you comfort next to your friend who maybe can't do those same things?

To be honest though, Tobirama wasn't the issue. The Uchiha were discontent, but they never attempted a coup until the elders stripped away their political equality and refused to give it back. Tobirama and Hiruzen are far less guilty than those three.

 

[Roman]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

So, here's what I interpret what you're saying:

Bijuu are sentient beings whose only fault lies in being surrounded by violent shinobi who see them as nothing more than weapons. Peace can be achieved between the two if shinobi achieve peace amongst themselves. I agree. I said this.


What you're also saying:

Letting hundreds and thousands of shinobi die (can't come back to life) and putting the rest into an eternal genjutsu is okay and a necessary sacrifice to keep seven bijuu alive despite the fact that they can regenerate. I disagree. This is where the issue lies. You're saying it's okay to let thousands of shinobi die just so seven bijuu can be alive.

No, I'm pretty sure. Did you or Invader have any issue with the shinobi seemingly trying to kill the Juubi or the bijuu before Naruto said to not kill them? As far as I recall, no one stood up for the bijuu until Naruto told Sasuke to not kill the bijuu, and Sasuke wanted to do it anyway. I dunno about you, but I also fully know that Invader would have supported killing the bijuu IF Naruto said yes, but Sasuke said no. If you were against killing bijuu before Naruto said anything, then my bad. But Naruto's way is illogical, unless he had a way to put the bijuu far out of Tobi and Madara's reach without killing them.

My argument is preventing the bijuu getting into the hands of Tobi and Madara. If Naruto had a way to send the bijuu far away where Madara or Tobi couldn't get to them, I'd support Naruto because his way would be logical and good for all sides, unless either bad guys could get to the bijuu.



This makes no sense. There would be understanding because the bijuu would know that Naruto and Sasuke killed them to delay the bad guys' plans. They'd be thankful because the bijuu would not have become part of Juubi, and they'd regenerate. The bijuu would not be left misunderstood, nor would the cycle remain open. Naruto can try to close the cycle and tell people to stop using bijuu as weapons while the bijuu are regenerating, as I have said.

I don't understand how they would succumb to power when Naruto and others can easily travel the world and tell people to stop using the bijuu as weapons because they have feelings. The bijuu would not need to be with Naruto or anyone else, they could frolic in the toads' home. The main point is, Tobi and Madara's plans would fail for the moment, at the very least, and it would prevent more lives from being lost.

---------- Post added at 01:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:56 PM ----------



To be honest though, Tobirama wasn't the issue. The Uchiha were discontent, but they never attempted a coup until the elders stripped away their political equality and refused to give it back. Tobirama and Hiruzen are far less guilty than those three.

No, that's not what I'm saying. You're assuming that scenario if Madara actually succeeds with his plan. What you're saying is basically that you'd rather kill them right of the bat than try and give your all to preserve their life and stop the idiot's plan. I disagree with that. That's finding an easy way out and letting everything be the same. It's like you don't even understand Naruto's way of things.

Of course. I had problem with it as soon as I gained the knowledge of people using Bijuu and treating them like shit. What healthy, moral human being wouldn't have a problem with that? I don't know about others but I would support Bijuu living regardless of who and which decision they make. I don't give a flying fuck about details. This is about a general opinion on the matter. It's not illogical, it's just risky, but at the same time morally fulfilling.

If logic was the only thing that drove the Alliance and Naruto, he wouldn't be able to defeat "hatred" and Madara.

It makes a lot of sense because they'd be used as a tool, again. They wouldn't be seen as humans' equals and supporters of the peace among shinobi. That scenario isn't beneficial as much as the current story is. Like I said, your way is succumbing to power's mercy which is equal to succumbing to hatred and misunderstanding.

They would succumb to power because they would kill them in order to stop Madara's power from growing. Power is something that started with Indra ruling over others. Madara is doing the same thing again today. He gained a massive power and is trying to manipulate others with it. Tyranny, hatred, power. I get what you're saying, I do. But it's not right in the long run. The closes thing I can relate your point of view is negligent homicide, and that, of course, isn't right.

He wasn't the main issue but he wasn't right, as well. He never tried to understand them, talk to them, just like many others. Even before the coup, we've never seen Hokage or anyone else come to Uchihas and try to solve things. That's why the whole thing was ridiculous.

 

[narutotheory]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

Unlike bijuus, humans cant regenerate when they are killed. So whats so bad in taking them out of the game for a short time?

You sound like an Uchiha.

 

[Rarhyx]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

• 
  letting bijuu live ->
• letting dozen of people get killed
• letting every single person alive get sucked into an infinte tsukuyomi
• letting madman achieve godlike powers who no one can kill

vs

• 
  "kill" one bijuu ->
• delay/destroy madman's and tobi's plan
• saving like almost everyone from infinte tsukuyomi
• find a plan to kill madman
• later explain the regenerated bijuu they had no other choice otherwise there would be no life anymore on the planet
• find a way to achieve peace forever

yeah, don't kill a bijuu because a bijuu can regenerate when it's killed and people don't.
Now I see why bijuu should stay in the game.
all people should be killed because a bijuu shouldn't regenerate.
makes perfect sense.


I agree in terms of killing a bijuu is wrong(pre and post war) but at that right moment(war) it's necessary to prevent some big shit(see what happened, even 8 gates couldn't kill madman. what if naruto and sasuke weren't descendants of ashura and indra? naruto would be responsible for killing every living being on earth).

 

[Fox666]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

what if naruto and sasuke weren't descendants of ashura and indra?

What if there wasn't deus ex machina? The manga would be over long ago, LOL.

But what do you meant that Bijuus can regenerate? Gyuki was pissed for loosing some tentacles, and he also lost some teeth...

 

[narutotheory]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

What if there wasn't deus ex machina? The manga would be over long ago, LOL.

But what do you meant that Bijuus can regenerate? Gyuki was pissed for loosing some tentacles, and he also lost some teeth...

A bijuu can indeed die, in a way.

A bijuu is purely made up of chakra, some times the are even referenced to as Chakra Monsters. The same rules apply to the bijuu as to all the normal humans in the world. If your chakra runs out, you die.

quoted in naruto episode 50-60, or when ever it was that the chunin exams went on and the sand attacked the leaf, sasuke and kakashi were off training when kakashi told sasuke "well your about good for 2 blast", refering to chidori. then sasuke said, "what would happen if i tried a third?" kakashi then said "in the turn that you try to force a jutsu, not only will it not work, you use up all your chakra, worst case scenerio, you die" so if you do lose all your chakra, you do die. as quoted from
This means that if a bijuu runs out of chakra he dies. If the jinchuuriki dies with the bijuu still inside of him the bijuu will die.

in this last case there has also been stated that if the jinchuuriki die's with the bijuu inside of him he we revive

BUT in chapter 503. On page 14 Kushina tells Minato her plan to reseal the Kyuubi within herself and then commit suicide. That was she says that the Kyuubi's resurrection will be delayed.
so upon the death of the jinchuuriki the tailed beast will disappear for a while. But it'll reappear again after some time. It is also said that this reappearance is on a random location. If the bijuu retains his original memory is also not known.


Bijuu are able to re manifest themselves because they are manifestations of natural energy/ergo chakra monsters themselves forming of natural occuring things in nature that bring about forms of chakra. I think it was said somewhere that the Kyuubi would re-manifest as a result of the hatred found within human beings hearts...the chakra slowly pouring together to form a demonic chakra monster once more...something like that. But that's just my tidbit...the information about this is factual though.

 

[M3J]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

No, that's not what I'm saying. You're assuming that scenario if Madara actually succeeds with his plan. What you're saying is basically that you'd rather kill them right of the bat than try and give your all to preserve their life and stop the idiot's plan. I disagree with that. That's finding an easy way out and letting everything be the same. It's like you don't even understand Naruto's way of things.

Tobi initially succeeded with one part of his plan, which caused at least one death. Madara then succeeded with his part of the plan, but I forgot if his plan caused deaths as well. But Madara won't entirely succeed with his plan thank to plot armor that Naruto has.

That's not an easy way out, it's a logical way out to protect shinobi and prevent as much loss as possible. I understand Naruto's way of things, and it's illogical and stupid in this case. The point, at the very least, is to get the bijuu out of Tobi and Madara's sight and make them impossible or nearly impossible for either bad guys to get to.

Of course. I had problem with it as soon as I gained the knowledge of people using Bijuu and treating them like shit. What healthy, moral human being wouldn't have a problem with that? I don't know about others but I would support Bijuu living regardless of who and which decision they make. I don't give a flying fuck about details. This is about a general opinion on the matter. It's not illogical, it's just risky, but at the same time morally fulfilling.

Show me where you had a problem with it before Naruto ever mentioned not killing the bijuu, because as far as I know, no one ever had any issue with the Alliance trying to go for the kill or severely hurt the Juubi.

It's not morally fulfilling to let countless of shinobi die and give bad guys more chances to succeed. It may be in your world, but in reality, it is better to save as many lives as possible. Killing the bijuu is better because they at least regenerate and are themselves. I am pretty sure the bijuu would prefer being killed over becoming the Juubi again and losing their minds/personalities, just as how Kyuubi preferred being caged in Naruto over being free but controlled by Madara.

Out of the two immoral decisions, Sasuke's is the least immoral because it protects the bijuu and does a better job of protecting human lives.

If logic was the only thing that drove the Alliance and Naruto, he wouldn't be able to defeat "hatred" and Madara.

Yes he would. Logic driving the Alliance and Naruto would ensure they're alive and beat the bad guys so hatred can be eradicated.

It makes a lot of sense because they'd be used as a tool, again. They wouldn't be seen as humans' equals and supporters of the peace among shinobi. That scenario isn't beneficial as much as the current story is. Like I said, your way is succumbing to power's mercy which is equal to succumbing to hatred and misunderstanding.

How would they be used or seen as a tool? If Naruto can't do anything while they're regenerating, he likely won't be able to do anything even if they were alive and didn't need to regenerate.

How is hatred and misunderstanding part of it? Like, the bijuu would understand and prefer being killed than be a part of the Juubi.

They would succumb to power because they would kill them in order to stop Madara's power from growing. Power is something that started with Indra ruling over others. Madara is doing the same thing again today. He gained a massive power and is trying to manipulate others with it. Tyranny, hatred, power. I get what you're saying, I do. But it's not right in the long run. The closes thing I can relate your point of view is negligent homicide, and that, of course, isn't right.

He wasn't the main issue but he wasn't right, as well. He never tried to understand them, talk to them, just like many others. Even before the coup, we've never seen Hokage or anyone else come to Uchihas and try to solve things. That's why the whole thing was ridiculous.

Well, if Naruto said to teleport the bijuu far away where Madara or Tobi couldn't get to them at all, I would support this idea and be against Sasuke's idea. That would be an ideal scenario for the bijuu and shinobi because the bijuu would be alive. Thinkin about it, Kakashi should have Kamui'd at least one or two bijuu to the other dimension so Madara would not be able to get his hands on them. But we basically agree with the bijuu overall, and how it's the shinobi's fault for why the bijuu became evil.

I think the hokage did try to solve things, but the Uchiha refused to listen. In any case, I consider the elders to be the biggest criminals and reasons why the Uchiha were exterminated.

 

[Rikudou King]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

Their history and "the danger they pose" is specifically because of humans, not themselves.

Taking it back to your stray dog example, a dog abused and forced to fight isn't at fault for it's bad nature. But it still gonna be put down, because it's dangerous. And given that the Bijuus can be made so dangerous by people, why shouldn't they be gotten rid of so that there's no danger to be created?

Yeah, that's the gist of it. Nuclear weapons won't destroy humans by themselves. That's why the saying goes, guns don't kill people, people kill people. It's the perfect example of how we can correlate real life with this story. The reason they're benevolent and conscious are the sole reasons for them not to be destroyed. The guarantee depends on the humans, not the weapons, that's what's it's about. If Bijuu or or nuclear weapons are removed, and a human wants to wage war, he'll simply find another way to cause it. Therefore, it's about people/humans, not weapons.

But despite that, both guns and nuclear weapons are destroyed so that the people who could use them can't. And the issue isn't that they can be used as weapons, it's that they can be used as destructive weapons. A single Bijuu (nuclear bomb) can kill millions and destroy entire villages in a single move. No other weapon the ninjas have are capable of doing that. The closest thing that comes to that are the handful of "S-rank" ninjas, an even then the majority of them aren't capable of that kind of destruction. But more importantly, these ninjas can be countered and stopped, and once stopped there is no chance of them posing any danger again. But the Bijuus as we've seen, can be employed over and over again, even when their host is killed, by a single person.

Pretty much this. Hypothetically let's say Sauske killed all the Bijju and removed them from the mix (at least temporarily until they regenerate). Is that going to remove the hatred that is in people's hearts? How does that stop someone from going on a rampage and killing innocent people? Answer: it does nothing to prevent those things. The only thing removing the Bijju does (temporarily) is reduce the SCALE that a single incident may potentially represent. Someone with a Bijju would be able to cause destruction on a bigger scale - that's all. Reducing the scale from occasional incidents of mass destruction to millions of diffused, singular acts of hate & violence doesn't address the real problem.

But it does. Unless that person is incredibility powerful, the moment they attempt to go on a rampage, they would be shut down by the villages. Even Akatsuki, a collection of the most powerful criminals, was not that hard to shut down. And once they get shut down, there will no long be a threat from them. Not to mention, no longer will innocent children be abused and tortured by these things.

So MURDERING the Bijju doesn't solve anything. All it does is heap abuse onto living, sentient beings with the lame excuse that you're doing it "for the greater good". Meanwhile there is still all the hate, violence, and every other problem that was supposedly going to be fixed by murdering those sentient beings. So what is accomplished by that evil act of murdering those living beings? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Therefore Sauske would perform an evil act with no good outcome.

Been over that before, murder would only apply to human beings. And the reason they're being gotten rid of is so the events that happen in the past don't get repeated. Are you forgetting that the majority of hate and such has come because of these beings, that they were stated to be the reason most of the wars were fought? They were the reason people hated the Jinchuuriki? They were the reason the whole incident with the Uchiha clan happen? They were the reason the world is currently in a massive war? Just because there will still be some problems doesn't mean that they shouldn't be gotten rid of so that there are less problems in the world. By that silly logic, why stop people from building nuclear weapons...

Let's try this. For example, don't pay attention to the current crisis with Russia and Ukraine, but Russia does have nuclear weapons that could theoretically kill any country they want. In this manga, Russia is any village that has a Bijuu as a nuclear weapon. Now, why doesn't any country see potential threat in nuclear weapons that Russia holds? Because there's not a single person in Russia who'd use it against another country (although Putin might be the one). The same principle goes in the story with Bijuu and the villages. The comparison is exact and there shouldn't be any problems grasping this. In other words, by your logic, to secure the world from potentially going to war, the whole world would have to attack Russia. But that seems preposterous now, doesn't it?

That's not why. The reason that Russia using nuclear weapons isn't a real threat is because if they were to do that, they too would have nuclear weapons used upon them and they clearly wouldn't want that. They aren't that crazy and even if Putin was, the rest of the government would stop him. That's why North Korea's actions are being taken so serious as an actual threat, because they do seem to be that crazy collectively.

As for it being an example of the villages and Bijuus, there's some factors you're forgetting, such as the uncontrollable nature of the Bijuus that have them overtake their host and attack the very villages they're in, resulting in thousands of deaths each time. There's also the fact that to maintain them, they're required to be implanted into children who then become hated by everyone within the village. But most importantly, there's the fact that several times the Bijuus were targeted by individuals who didn't care whether a war was started or not: Madara, Danzo, Nagato, Obito...

That opinion is the same as Madara's. If Naruto was to agree to kill the Bijuu, there would be no understanding, no empathy. Bijuu would be left misunderstood and the cycle of hatred wouldn't be closed, it would leave an open hole for another idiot to wage hatred or war all over again. There's a lot deeper meaning in that which I'm trying to explain here but it seems I'm not getting through. If your path was right, there would be no compassion, Naruto and the Alliance would succumb to the mercy of power all over again, which is exactly what the world is trying to avoid and get rid of now.

Setting aside that Naruto did attempt to kill the Bijuus before, the cycle of hatred would be closed. The cycle of hatred only works if both sides can keep it going, and removing one side ends it. And your reason doesn't work in this case, because it doesn't require the Bijuus to like or hate humans for them to be used as a weapon. It has nothing to do with power, it's about safety.