Shounen Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto

[jiraiyanindo]

Re: Naruto 674 Discussion / 675 Predictions

Neither one was right. That was the whole reason why The Sage included Sasuke, because the answer is in the middle.


There is justification in killing innocents. It's to prevent even greater loss. Is that the answer to every event? No, it isn't and it should be the last option. But many times it is the only viable option. When there are no more choices to make, you have to make the hard ones. Humans are stubborn, Madara is a perfect example of that. You can't change everyone, and some people simply don't wish to understand a better argument. What do you do then? You can't hope that everyone is going to understand and want peace because that isn't realistic.

It is realistic in this manga. In the real world it isn't realistic, you're right about that. However, that's why kishi introduced ninshuu. The idea of ninshuu is what can lead to world peace through everybody being connected to each other and understanding each other so as not to have further conflicts. This hasn't been done yet because everyone is trying to achieve peace through ninjutsu and that is impossible.

The bijuu are being used as deterrents to achieve a false peace. The only way is through a mutual understanding of people and their motivations. That is what ninshuu will accomplish.

Sasuke's way of trying to achieve peace is wrong. The sage included him because by not including indra, in the beginning, is what led to this millennium long battle between the brothers. The sage never said that indra's way was right, only that by not including him into the solution it made the situation worse.

Clearly Ashura's way aka naruto's way is right but sasuke aka indra needs to believe in that too or else the conflict will continue. So, after they beat madara naruto will still need to convince sasuke to accept and join his cause of ninshuu. This will be the last battle to see if the brothers can bring peace together.

 

[Rikudobito]

Re: Naruto 674 Discussion / 675 Predictions

You do realize that Ashura's way has failed just as much as Indra's right? Hell, the Sage even admitted he failed. The Sage, you know the Divine being who supposedly knows all?

Ashura, Hashirama, Naruto, and the Sage all fail to take into account the nature of humans. Something has to be done with the Biju, they cannot remain on Earth simply can't be done. Is Sasuke wanting to kill them wrong? Both yes and no.

Sasuke wants to kill them because he knows people will use them for bad reasons. Sasuke's way of doing it isn't right, but the end result is. The Biju need to be gone somehow. Killing them, as they were originally innocent is harsh. But they need to be exiled. They aren't natural. The Sage created them and he admitted this was a mistake. There are some things that this world doesn't need, and the Biju are one of them.

And you are quite wrong that the manga is depicting Naruto's way is the right way. Because the Sage basically flat out tells us that BOTH brothers are needed to find the solution, meaning that Naruto's way of doing things is still wrong. Ashura and his heirs had their chance and they all failed, Naruto isn't going to do anything different than what they were. A balance between what Naruto is trying to do and what Sasuke is trying to do is what is needed, and that is the right way. A compromise between the brothers.

I don't agree. You've already made the point but you did not elaborate on it any further. The only thing that has no place in this world is human greed itself which is part of the human's nature itself. The bijuu are merely victims of this human greed itself. Humans are only using the Bijuus by greed for power, but honestly, it is only that greed that has no place on this world. Through Ninshuu where people will be able to get rid of this greed, it may solve this problem but mind you, Ninshuu has failed at first, through people's greed for power, they use the chakra shared by Hagoromo and used it to empower themselves and their techniques resulting in Ninjutsu. But this time that will not fail, the alliance has already been united and as Kakashi said as for Naruto - the more comrades he has, the closer he is to reach his goal and the alliance firmly believes in him, so Ninshuu will not be in vain this time and with the help of Sasuke, who may implement his own views for the matter, may direct them closer towards their goal.

About killing the Bijuus, what's the point? they will die and then pop up somewhere again ( revived ), so killing them is basically useless, it is simply a waste of time. And you know, they can't be exiled, Naruto won't ever allow that. Sasuke who you think may kill the Bijuus and has changed his views, he basically helped Naruto to extract them from Obito and did not show hostility towards them later on.

 

[REN KOUEN]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

A bijuu can indeed die, in a way.

A bijuu is purely made up of chakra, some times the are even referenced to as Chakra Monsters. The same rules apply to the bijuu as to all the normal humans in the world. If your chakra runs out, you die.

quoted in naruto episode 50-60, or when ever it was that the chunin exams went on and the sand attacked the leaf, sasuke and kakashi were off training when kakashi told sasuke "well your about good for 2 blast", refering to chidori. then sasuke said, "what would happen if i tried a third?" kakashi then said "in the turn that you try to force a jutsu, not only will it not work, you use up all your chakra, worst case scenerio, you die" so if you do lose all your chakra, you do die. as quoted from
This means that if a bijuu runs out of chakra he dies. If the jinchuuriki dies with the bijuu still inside of him the bijuu will die.

in this last case there has also been stated that if the jinchuuriki die's with the bijuu inside of him he we revive

BUT in chapter 503. On page 14 Kushina tells Minato her plan to reseal the Kyuubi within herself and then commit suicide. That was she says that the Kyuubi's resurrection will be delayed.
so upon the death of the jinchuuriki the tailed beast will disappear for a while. But it'll reappear again after some time. It is also said that this reappearance is on a random location. If the bijuu retains his original memory is also not known.


Bijuu are able to re manifest themselves because they are manifestations of natural energy/ergo chakra monsters themselves forming of natural occuring things in nature that bring about forms of chakra. I think it was said somewhere that the Kyuubi would re-manifest as a result of the hatred found within human beings hearts...the chakra slowly pouring together to form a demonic chakra monster once more...something like that. But that's just my tidbit...the information about this is factual though.

i believe it was stated that even if the bijuu "die" they are always reincarnated soon, like if a jinchuuriki dies while the bijuu is still hosted within him

 

[M3J]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

From what I gather based on the argument supporting Naruto saying not to kill bijuu, you guys would prefer to see hundreds of people killed and the rest subjugated just to spare the lives of seven bijuu who can regenerate, which in itself would definitely prevent peace from occurring unless someone breaks out of the genjutsu and helps others break out. Anyone who agrees with this is frankly lacking in logic and rationality.

By killing the bijuu, you save countless of lives because the bad guys (Tobi or Madara) won't be able to get the power they need to achieve their plans, and they're easier to take out. After they're defeated, you have time to talk with the shinobi and achieve peace while the bijuu are regenerating. Call me weird, but I am pretty sure the bijuu prefer to be killed and regenerate than become part of the Juubi or controlled, just as how the Kyuubi preferred to be in Naruto rather than outside but controlled by Madara.

But hey, logic doesn't matter when it comes to Naruto, right?! Because he could have suggested Tobi and/or Kakashi use Kamui on the bijuu and send them to the other dimension or to the toad mountain where Madara wouldn't be able to get his hands on them, and the bijuu would be safe.

 

[Roman]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

From what I gather based on the argument supporting Naruto saying not to kill bijuu, you guys would prefer to see hundreds of people killed and the rest subjugated just to spare the lives of seven bijuu who can regenerate, which in itself would definitely prevent peace from occurring unless someone breaks out of the genjutsu and helps others break out. Anyone who agrees with this is frankly lacking in logic and rationality.

By killing the bijuu, you save countless of lives because the bad guys (Tobi or Madara) won't be able to get the power they need to achieve their plans, and they're easier to take out. After they're defeated, you have time to talk with the shinobi and achieve peace while the bijuu are regenerating. Call me weird, but I am pretty sure the bijuu prefer to be killed and regenerate than become part of the Juubi or controlled, just as how the Kyuubi preferred to be in Naruto rather than outside but controlled by Madara.

But hey, logic doesn't matter when it comes to Naruto, right?! Because he could have suggested Tobi and/or Kakashi use Kamui on the bijuu and send them to the other dimension or to the toad mountain where Madara wouldn't be able to get his hands on them, and the bijuu would be safe.

No, that's what your limited perception gathers. When it comes to humanity and understanding one another, a person can never reach a sporadic decision in which he can nonchalantly kill an innocent being assuming that a marginal error of establishing peace won't occur. You keep ranting about regeneration and shit like that but you can't grasp that it's irrelevant whether Bijuu can regenerate or not. The issue is in acting the same way as an enemy would at that given moment which means losing understanding and succumbing to authority of power to secure a peace for a limited period of time, IF that actually isn't a miscalculation.

No, you don't. By killing the Bijuu you remove an imminent threat and kill any moralistic and emphatic feeling the Alliance or, in general, a true leader had. I am calling you weird because you can't grasp the issue with killing innocent beings. You're giving an okay to a mass murder. It's basically similar to nazi/fascist incorporating darwinism in interaction. In a more serious matter, a psychologist would put up a diagnose for that, I'm sure. Of course he preferred to be in Naruto. Why the hell would he go out and be used as a weapon by Madara?

Huh? He isn't thinking logically like you. He's thinking emotionally and emphatically towards another conscious being. That's what makes him human, that's what made Bijuu accept him, that's what made everyone else accept him. Why would he kill an innocent being instead of trying to protect them? He first wanted to extinguish every possible option of trying to save them, not systematically use "logic", as you call it, and kill them in order to maybe make a temporal peace by chance.

 

[KingOfNight]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

From what I gather based on the argument supporting Naruto saying not to kill bijuu, you guys would prefer to see hundreds of people killed and the rest subjugated just to spare the lives of seven bijuu who can regenerate, which in itself would definitely prevent peace from occurring unless someone breaks out of the genjutsu and helps others break out. Anyone who agrees with this is frankly lacking in logic and rationality.

Hmmmm. What would Itachi say in this situation?

Spoiler

Oh, right. He's thinking exactly like his brother.

 

[M3J]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

No, it's what you're saying, that it's better to sacrifice countless of lives for the sake of seven beings that can't truly die. While Sasuke was about killing an innocent being nonchalantly, it was a better decision than Naruto's sparing them without any other solution. It's not irrelevant at all, because bijuu aren't gonna give a shit if Sasuke or Naruto kill them since they can regenerate, they care more about retaining their identities. You're basically saying you'd rather risk a chance of no true peace than have a limited period of peace that can permanently lead to peace. Genuine peace will not happen if people die or are subjugated, and by preventing Madara and Tobi from getting the bijuu, they avoid countless of death and subjugation.

You are not killing the bijuu, you are temporarily removing them from the world and removing threat to peace and threat to bijuu. There's no killing any "morals" or "empathetic feeling" because the bijuu would likely understand and even prefer that path. No bijuu wants to lose its freedom or identity, which we know from their action and statement. You're the one supporting killing innocent beings, I'm supporting removing the main ingredients to bad guys' plans when they can revive. There's a major difference here, and yes, regeneration is relevant, even if you can't grasp why.

No psychologist would put up a diagnosis for that. They would wonder why one would prefer to save seven bijuu that can regenerate over countless of innocent people, and why one would want to help Madara and Tobi achieve their plans. As far as I recall, the Kyuubi didn't care about being a weapon, he just didn't want to be controlled by Madara or anyone. He chose to be in Naruto because Naruto is not about controlling anyone, he believes in equality, and that bijuu should live in peace. But erm, bijuu won't live in peace or as bijuu if they end up in Madara's hands and become the juubi. "killing" the bijuu is easily more moralistic than letting them become part of the Juubi.

His emotional way of thinking is stupid in this case, unless he suggested relocating the bijuu to a place that they can't be reached by Madara or even by Tobi. Making the bijuu inaccessible to Madara/Tobi > killing the bijuu > crying about saving the bijuu but leaving them in the battlefield.

Killing the bijuu in this case IS protecting them, and it's more moralistic. You accuse me of limited perception, but your perception is even more limited because you keep claiming "temporal peace." Whether the bijuu get killed or relocated, it has a much higher chance of leading to permanent peace. Sparing the bijuu and letting them stay at the battlefield or making it easy for Madara to take them will destroy any chance of peace if Naruto and Sasuke can't beat Madara.

You're supporting killing or subjugating countless of innocent lives just to spare seven lives that can regenerate. Almost everyone would agree that's what you're saying.

---------- Post added at 02:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:55 PM ----------

Hmmmm. What would Itachi say in this situation?

Spoiler

Oh, right. He's thinking exactly like his brother.

The Itachi we know now would probably be logical and tell Naruto and Kakashi (and possibly Tobi if he's good) to remove the bijuu from the battlefield, probably via Kamui or where the toads live.

 

[Roman]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

A limited period of peace can't lead to permanent peace if it's achieved by your solution. In fact, it's even questionable whether that limited period of peace would be even established given the human nature, as I said oh so many many times. Genuine peace will happen when the threat of tyrannical personas disappear, not when you kill innocent beings. Naruto and the Alliance would be subjugated by the authority of power if they were to make your decision, they would act the same way as Madara and Indra would. An act caused by the desire or fear for power.

That's irrelevant, as I keep saying. The issue is with the act itself. I'm not supporting killing innocent beings, I'm supporting extinguishing every possible option of not killing someone innocent in order to preserve a miscalculated hope of limited period of peace. Since Naruto is doing that now, I wonder who's right.

A psychologist or a third party listening to this wouldn't give a shit about Madara's plans. Firstly, because an innocent life is at stake, and secondly, they are a help to Alliance as much as you see them as threat. Being controlled is implied to be used like a weapon, so that's wrong. Taking one's life in your own hands and kill it can never be moralistic. Moralistic would be to give them a chance to decide for themselves, at best.

It's hardly stupid. I don't know if you're purposely ignoring the fact that the Bijuu are aiding the Alliance as much as they're a threat or not.

I chuckle every time you put "killing" and "morals" in the same sentence. It's so contradicting it hurts my intelligence. I don't accuse you, I perceive. Your perception is limited because you don't understand that with Bijuu or without, if a human wants to wage a war, he'll do it, regardless of the Bijuu or not. He'll find another weapon to do it. Not only that, but your own argument of them regenerating is backfiring when they could be used for war again, even if they are killed. A permanent peace will be achieved once the human reasoning is dealt with, not the weapons that are used to wage war. Common sense.

That's funny. That line is so contradicting it hurts. Once they regenerate, there will be war again, if someone wants to wage it. Innocent lives are going to be again extinguished. That's why your "peace" is temporal, that's why it's practically non-existent. That's why Naruto uses TnJ instead of your useless logic and absence of humanity.

 

[ArtOfLife]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

reads out exactly like a private messages usually would

A limited period of peace can't lead to permanent peace if it's achieved by your solution. In fact, it's even questionable whether that limited period of peace would be even established given the human nature, as I said oh so many many times. Genuine peace will happen when the threat of tyrannical personas disappear, not when you kill innocent beings. Naruto and the Alliance would be subjugated by the authority of power if they were to make your decision, they would act the same way as Madara and Indra would. An act caused by the desire or fear for power.

That's irrelevant, as I keep saying. The issue is with the act itself. I'm not supporting killing innocent beings, I'm supporting extinguishing every possible option of not killing someone innocent in order to preserve a miscalculated hope of limited period of peace. Since Naruto is doing that now, I wonder who's right.

A psychologist or a third party listening to this wouldn't give a shit about Madara's plans. Firstly, because an innocent life is at stake, and secondly, they are a help to Alliance as much as you see them as threat. Being controlled is implied to be used like a weapon, so that's wrong. Taking one's life in your own hands and kill it can never be moralistic. Moralistic would be to give them a chance to decide for themselves, at best.

It's hardly stupid. I don't know if you're purposely ignoring the fact that the Bijuu are aiding the Alliance as much as they're a threat or not.

I chuckle every time you put "killing" and "morals" in the same sentence. It's so contradicting it hurts my intelligence. I don't accuse you, I perceive. Your perception is limited because you don't understand that with Bijuu or without, if a human wants to wage a war, he'll do it, regardless of the Bijuu or not. He'll find another weapon to do it. Not only that, but your own argument of them regenerating is backfiring when they could be used for war again, even if they are killed. A permanent peace will be achieved once the human reasoning is dealt with, not the weapons that are used to wage war. Common sense.

That's funny. That line is so contradicting it hurts. Once they regenerate, there will be war again, if someone wants to wage it. Innocent lives are going to be again extinguished. That's why your "peace" is temporal, that's why it's practically non-existent. That's why Naruto uses TnJ instead of your useless logic and absence of humanity.

 

[M3J]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

Your post says it all, your perception is far more limited than mine, and that you would choose to kill countless of lives that cannot return over seven lives that can regenerate. To even suggest that temporary peace can't lead to permanent peace is quite ignorant and does not make sense at all. After the war when Madara loses, there will be peace, with or without the bijuu. With or without the bijuu, Naruto can talk to people and tell them about the bijuu, resulting in majority not wanting to use bijuu for personal gains, if they even had any desire to do so.

Bijuu haven't aided the Alliance other than giving Naruto chakra, which would not have been necessary if they had not been taken by Tobi or Madara in the first place. If they are used for war again, it is not because they were killed, it is because of the humans themselves regardless.

 

[Delbi]

Re: Naruto 674 Discussion / 675 Predictions

It is realistic in this manga. In the real world it isn't realistic, you're right about that. However, that's why kishi introduced ninshuu. The idea of ninshuu is what can lead to world peace through everybody being connected to each other and understanding each other so as not to have further conflicts. This hasn't been done yet because everyone is trying to achieve peace through ninjutsu and that is impossible.

The bijuu are being used as deterrents to achieve a false peace. The only way is through a mutual understanding of people and their motivations. That is what ninshuu will accomplish.

Sasuke's way of trying to achieve peace is wrong. The sage included him because by not including indra, in the beginning, is what led to this millennium long battle between the brothers. The sage never said that indra's way was right, only that by not including him into the solution it made the situation worse.

Clearly Ashura's way aka naruto's way is right but sasuke aka indra needs to believe in that too or else the conflict will continue. So, after they beat madara naruto will still need to convince sasuke to accept and join his cause of ninshuu. This will be the last battle to see if the brothers can bring peace together.

The flaw in all of this is that merely understanding another person doesn't mean you agree with them. You can agree to disagree, but when you can't achieve your goals because of the actions of someone else what do you do?

Compromises can happen, sure, but not all compromises are equal. And that is where the problem lies. Even with ninshuu you can't always find a peaceful solutions.

The Sage admitted that before his mother humans fought wars with conventional weapons. The introduction of ninjutsu simply gave them a better means to kill one another. Now Madara is attempting to use Ninjutsu to destroy the world. Ironically, what is going to stop him? More ninjutsu.

Sasuke and Indra are needed to balance Naruto and Ashura because when ninshuu doesn't work, when you exhaust all options, you need ninjutsu. It's just the way it is.

So no, I don't think it's just that Sasuke and Iindra need to accept Naruto and Ashura's way, but that the understanding needs to be, that you first and always attempt Naruto and Ashura's way of peace and understanding, but when that doesn't work, the only way to preserve peace and the good way of life is to use Sasuke's and Indra's way of Ninjutsu.

 

[Roman]

Re: Naruto 674 Discussion / 675 Predictions

I don't think you know what the word ignorant means since you didn't understand a single word from my posts. You're repeating yourself too much and evading my arguments without any reaction to it. It's boring and not challenging. Not only that, but you contradict your own self in your sentences and end up using my arguments but not even noticing it, which is fucking funny. Anyone who thinks killing and morals can go in the same box didn't take enough ethics classes or their upbringing was at some point declining. The debate is over for me.

 

[Delbi]

Re: Naruto 674 Discussion / 675 Predictions

I don't agree. You've already made the point but you did not elaborate on it any further. The only thing that has no place in this world is human greed itself which is part of the human's nature itself. The bijuu are merely victims of this human greed itself. Humans are only using the Bijuus by greed for power, but honestly, it is only that greed that has no place on this world. Through Ninshuu where people will be able to get rid of this greed, it may solve this problem but mind you, Ninshuu has failed at first, through people's greed for power, they use the chakra shared by Hagoromo and used it to empower themselves and their techniques resulting in Ninjutsu. But this time that will not fail, the alliance has already been united and as Kakashi said as for Naruto - the more comrades he has, the closer he is to reach his goal and the alliance firmly believes in him, so Ninshuu will not be in vain this time and with the help of Sasuke, who may implement his own views for the matter, may direct them closer towards their goal.

About killing the Bijuus, what's the point? they will die and then pop up somewhere again ( revived ), so killing them is basically useless, it is simply a waste of time. And you know, they can't be exiled, Naruto won't ever allow that. Sasuke who you think may kill the Bijuus and has changed his views, he basically helped Naruto to extract them from Obito and did not show hostility towards them later on.

Human greed is one of the Seven Deadly Sins. It is part of human nature and can't be changed unless you wish to change humans. The Biju are not immune to sin. They have shown various sin themselves in the form of Rage (Kurama and Gyuki), Envy (Shukaku), Pride (Son Goku),

In essence, again, Human greed isn't the only problem because people won't just use the Beasts for powers sake, but will find other excuses. Love, hatred, revenge,etc. Again, human nature is the issue, and humans aren't going to change any time soon.

Sasuke may have changed his view on killing the Biju, but knowing his logical way of thinking he probably understands they can't be left on earth. Again, as I said multiple times, you don't need to kill the Biju (since they can't really die anyway) but you still need to get rid of them, for both their own sake and the sake of the humans. I have a feeling they are going to be put in another dimension or possibly be brought into the afterlife somehow.

---------- Post added at 03:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:00 PM ----------

Hmmmm. What would Itachi say in this situation?

Spoiler

Oh, right. He's thinking exactly like his brother.

Itach's words remind us that true peace can't be achieved, ever. It's a childish notion that is impossible. Saying that, striving to understand one another accept each other is the path to go. Just remember, there will always be assholes who need to be put down, and things will happen that will give you an impossible choice that must be made.

This is why I said there needs to be a balance found between Ninnshu and Ninjutsu. You must always use Ninnshu first, but when the time comes, Ninjutsu must be the answer, because while Ninnshu keeps people happy, Ninjutsu is what allows Nnnshu to keep existing.

---------- Post added at 03:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:04 PM ----------

Anyone who thinks killing and morals can go in the same box didn't take enough ethics classes or their upbringing was at some point declining. The debate is over for me.

Ethics have been and always will be a matter of opinion. "The do no harm" aspect of medicine is a contradiction in itself and can be debated strongly. Euthanasia and abortion are two great examples of this. Do you not abort a baby knowing that it's prolonged existence can kill it's mother? Do you not mercy kill someone when they want to die and knowing that keeping them alive just prolongs that person and their family's suffering?

The childish notion that killing is always wrong is just that, childish. There is a very big distinction between a justifiable killing and a murder, something most people fail to grasp.

Again, I don't think killing the Biju should be done because 1) they can't die and stay dead, and 2) given the power of ninjutsu, I am sure there is a way to get them off of earth without killing them.

Saying that, if the only viable option was to kill the Biju, it would have to be done. Not killing them when it is the only way of getting rid of them just brings upon more death.

 

[Roman]

Re: Naruto 674 Discussion / 675 Predictions

Ethics have been and always will be a matter of opinion. "The do no harm" aspect of medicine is a contradiction in itself and can be debated strongly. Euthanasia and abortion are two great examples of this. Do you not abort a baby knowing that it's prolonged existence can kill it's mother? Do you not mercy kill someone when they want to die and knowing that keeping them alive just prolongs that person and their family's suffering?

The childish notion that killing is always wrong is just that, childish. There is a very big distinction between a justifiable killing and a murder, something most people fail to grasp.

Again, I don't think killing the Biju should be done because 1) they can't die and stay dead, and 2) given the power of ninjutsu, I am sure there is a way to get them off of earth without killing them.

Saying that, if the only viable option was to kill the Biju, it would have to be done. Not killing them when it is the only way of getting rid of them just brings upon more death.

Your examples hold no ground because a baby in its fetus form can't think and isn't conscious and a person in a coma has no ability to speak his/her mind. It's also one a few examples in which allowing someone to die is considered mercy.

Compassion and understanding another can never be childish. Deciding about one's life in given circumstance is hardly childish. Here, justification is obviously a matter of opinion.

Only those reasons? What about the fact that killing them would mean taking a course of behavior that is equal to Madara's? It would be an inevitable continuing of being at the mercy of power which decides the fate of human lives.

Death would be brought upon whenever a war would be present, regardless of Bijuu being present or not. So, even if you kill them, you're not saving anyone, firstly because like I said, people will find another means to cause destruction, and secondly because the Bijuu will be back and the paranoia of the opinion that Bijuu should be killed would be back. Talk about logic.

 

[Delbi]

Re: Naruto 674 Discussion / 675 Predictions

Your examples hold no ground because a baby in its fetus form can't think and isn't conscious and a person in a coma has no ability to speak his/her mind. It's also one a few examples in which allowing someone to die is considered mercy.

Compassion and understanding another can never be childish. Deciding about one's life in given circumstance is hardly childish. Here, justification is obviously a matter of opinion. If it's ok to kill someone because they can't think or reason, then you'd justify killing people who are brain dead? What about retards who have questionable thinking ability, can you kill them too?

Only those reasons? What about the fact that killing them would mean taking a course of behavior that is equal to Madara's? It would be an inevitable continuing of being at the mercy of power which decides the fate of human lives.

Death would be brought upon whenever a war would be present, regardless of Bijuu being present or not. So, even if you kill them, you're not saving anyone, firstly because like I said, people will find another means to cause destruction, and secondly because the Bijuu will be back and the paranoia of the opinion that Bijuu should be killed would be back. Talk about logic.

A fetus has the potential to grow and live and could possibly become the next Einstein, or they could grow and become the next Hitler.

And I'm not talking about killing someone in a coma without their consent. I am talking about killing someone who is giving you their consent. It is mercy, but mercy or not you are still taking a life.

Compassion and understanding go so far, especially when other parties don't wish to understand you. Or worse, they do understand you and just don't care, because their own thoughts, ideals, and wants are more important to them than peace and cooperation. You have to kill people who are potential threats to the well being of all life and people. You can't reason with everyone.

And I really don't understand why you keep bringing up killing the Biju. You talk about people not reading your post but you seem unable to read mine. I stated, quite explicitly that I think killing them is the wrong answer. Why you keep sounding off like a broken record is beyond me. Like I said, they need to be gone, they can't remain on earth. I said as a last resort they should be killed, but obviously with Sasuke and Naruto gaining near God like abilities they should be able to do something else, that is if the Sage himself doesn't step in or the Biju's themselves do something.

 

[Roman]

Re: Naruto 674 Discussion / 675 Predictions

A fetus has the potential to grow and live and could possibly become the next Einstein, or they could grow and become the next Hitler.

And I'm not talking about killing someone in a coma without their consent. I am talking about killing someone who is giving you their consent. It is mercy, but mercy or not you are still taking a life.

Compassion and understanding go so far, especially when other parties don't wish to understand you. Or worse, they do understand you and just don't care, because their own thoughts, ideals, and wants are more important to them than peace and cooperation. You have to kill people who are potential threats to the well being of all life and people. You can't reason with everyone.

And I really don't understand why you keep bringing up killing the Biju. You talk about people not reading your post but you seem unable to read mine. I stated, quite explicitly that I think killing them is the wrong answer. Why you keep sounding off like a broken record is beyond me. Like I said, they need to be gone, they can't remain on earth. I said as a last resort they should be killed, but obviously with Sasuke and Naruto gaining near God like abilities they should be able to do something else, that is if the Sage himself doesn't step in or the Biju's themselves don't something.

Sure, but technically it's not yet alive so the inner debate of what's profound and moral can't be really compared to what we're discussing.

That's not the same as deciding about one's life without their consent for reasons that are illogical. That's the problem.

I agree, that's the main problem in today's societies. But it's exactly the reason we have to try and fight that apathy. At least, that's what's Naruto doing anyway, if we were to convert his way in real life.

Because that was and still is the main topic, I correlate it to my elaborations. If I don't read your posts, sound like a broken record and you're apparently agreeing with me, what exactly are you arguing about then?

 

[Delbi]

Re: Naruto 674 Discussion / 675 Predictions

That's not the same as deciding about one's life without their consent for reasons that are illogical.

No, they aren't illogical, they are immoral, and even then morals are simply a matter of opinion. There is logic behind killing the Biju, it's just not great logic because of their ability to be revived. That doesn't make it illogical, especially when there aren't any other options that have yet to be presented. Understanding them was a good step, but if people want to use them as weapons, all the understanding in the world won't matter.

I agree, that's the main problem in today's societies. But it's exactly the reason we have to try and fight that apathy. At least, that's what's Naruto doing anyway, if we were to convert his way in real life.

Yes you have to fight it, but at some point you can't keep fighting the good fight, you have to do what is necessary. Converting to his way in real life would never happen, again it's a childish notion. As long as humans exist they will disagree with one another. True peace is a Utopian idea that is unrealistic. Yes you always strive for it, but when someone threatens what you are working towards you have to put them down, with lethal means if necessary. You can't fix crazy people all the time, and other simply don't care for peace because of their own wants and desires. The human condition can't be changed, at it least it won't be for a long long time. And if it is changed, would humans cease being human?

Because that was and still is the main topic, I correlate it to my elaborations. If I don't read your posts, sound like a broken record and you're apparently agreeing with me, what exactly are you arguing about then?

I don't agree with you because I don't think the Biju belong on Earth. I mentioned that they aren't of Earth and they need to leave and you said that isn't the case.

 

[Roman]

Re: Naruto 674 Discussion / 675 Predictions

No, they aren't illogical, they are immoral, and even then morals are simply a matter of opinion. There is logic behind killing the Biju, it's just not great logic because of their ability to be revived. That doesn't make it illogical, especially when there aren't any other options that have yet to be presented. Understanding them was a good step, but if people want to use them as weapons, all the understanding in the world won't matter.


Yes you have to fight it, but at some point you can't keep fighting the good fight, you have to do what is necessary. Converting to his way in real life would never happen, again it's a childish notion. As long as humans exist they will disagree with one another. True peace is a Utopian idea that is unrealistic. Yes you always strive for it, but when someone threatens what you are working towards you have to put them down, with lethal means if necessary. You can't fix crazy people all the time, and other simply don't care for peace because of their own wants and desires. The human condition can't be changed, at it least it won't be for a long long time. And if it is changed, would humans cease being human?



I don't agree with you because I don't think the Biju belong on Earth. I mentioned that they aren't of Earth and they need to leave and you said that isn't the case.

And you wonder why I tell people they don't read my posts. They are also illogical, because, I will repeat, killing the Bijuu wouldn't bring peace if someone still wanted to make war. They would find another weapon or they'd just try and use the Bijuu again once they regenerate. So, is it illogical? Yes, it is.

How is it a childish notion if the world is, generally, at peace? The Russian/Ukrainian crisis is the perfect example of someone always trying to wage something. But the majority of the world still operates on the notion of peace. How is it possible? By mutual understanding between countries.

That's not the same as killing them, but banishing someone because of a paranoia still doesn't justify deciding on someone else's freedom.

 

[Delbi]

Re: Naruto 674 Discussion / 675 Predictions

And you wonder why I tell people they don't read my posts. They are also illogical, because, I will repeat, killing the Bijuu wouldn't bring peace if someone still wanted to make war. They would find another weapon or they'd just try and use the Bijuu again once they regenerate. So, is it illogical? Yes, it is.

No, the logic is you take away not only something people fight wars over, but the greatest weapon they can use in said wars. It is a temporary solution, but a solution none the less. There is logic and reasoning to that, again, it just isn't perfect.

How is it a childish notion if the world is, generally, at peace? The Russian/Ukrainian crisis is the perfect example of someone always trying to wage something. But the majority of the world still operates on the notion of peace. How is it possible? By mutual understanding between countries.

Countries can be at peace with one another despite the fact that their people hate one another. People in those countries murder one another, steal from one another, rape one another. Peace at a macro level is great, but it doesn't change the fact that peace at a micro level doesn't happen.

That's not the same as killing them, but banishing someone because of a paranoia still doesn't justify deciding on someone else's freedom.

It's not paranoia, the proof is in history, and again in human nature. It's naive to think that humans are suddenly going to change.

And Biju aren't people. You have to stop comparing the two. The reasons they are similar is offset by the reasons they are different, and it is the reasons they are different that they can't be part of Earth. The Sage even admitted his mistake in creating them.

 

[Roman]

Re: Naruto 674 Discussion / 675 Predictions

No, the logic is you take away not only something people fight wars over, but the greatest weapon they can use in said wars. It is a temporary solution, but a solution none the less. There is logic and reasoning to that, again, it just isn't perfect.


Countries can be at peace with one another despite the fact that their people hate one another. People in those countries murder one another, steal from one another, rape one another. Peace at a macro level is great, but it doesn't change the fact that peace at a micro level doesn't happen.


It's not paranoia, the proof is in history, and again in human nature. It's naive to think that humans are suddenly going to change.

And Biju aren't people. You have to stop comparing the two. The reasons they are similar is offset by the reasons they are different, and it is the reasons they are different that they can't be part of Earth. The Sage even admitted his mistake in creating them.

But is it worth to risk your humanity and succumbing to authority of power by a solution that's not only temporary, but prone to being a miscalculated hope in the sense that it would even happen?

Well, I wouldn't go that deep. Even if that peace is superficial on the surface, it is still there to the point in which lives aren't lost in wars. People killing one another inside a country is another discussion, related to their own sanity, desperation, bankruptcy etc.

I agree, they're not going to change and with that, nothing would change either way, if they were on Earth or not. That's the point.

They're not people, but they have soul, mind and conscious as people which qualifies them as being comparable to people. Not only comparable but even better than some because not anyone has soul or basic humanity. I agree it was a mistake, but you have to accept the consequences of your actions. They're beings with whom you can relate so you have to treat them as you would treat another human being.