Shounen Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto

[Rarhyx]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

Yea, that's misleading. They want us to believe that sakura got 105 cm?

That's preposterous. hahahahaha.

well, tsunade had also a flatchest in her youth and now....
and look at nami how much she "grew" in 2 years...

 

[MSofAofCOCA]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

Is there any word on when the series will end? I'm about a year or so behind, and want to catch up but I heard it will be ending soon so I figure I might as well wait. So like if it seems to be ending by New Year's , I'll probably just wait. If it's ending in another year or so, I would want to catch up and stick with it till the end.

 

[Notak]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

I kinda wish the Third Hokage would have been treated better in this war, even as an Edo Tensei he couldn't compete with the other Hokages. Orochimaru should have just resurrected him as a youngster (like Kabuto did with Madara) to show us why he was so renowned. But now we'll never know.

 

[M3J]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

Is there any word on when the series will end? I'm about a year or so behind, and want to catch up but I heard it will be ending soon so I figure I might as well wait. So like if it seems to be ending by New Year's , I'll probably just wait. If it's ending in another year or so, I would want to catch up and stick with it till the end.

There's no known date, there are just guesses based on assumptions with little to no proof or founding.

 

[Fox666]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

Supposedly the movie takes place after the end of the series, so it shouldn't go for long.

 

[KiSwordsman]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3


This killed me.

 

[KiSwordsman]

Re: Naruto 694 Discussion/ 695 Predictions

Calling Obito the "coolest guy" was awful, and it does spit on the graves of all the people Obito killed. All Naruto had to say was "shut up, what does someone like you who has never known loss know about Obito". Instead, he said something that directly praised a mass murdering psychopath.

I can appreciate the circumstances to an extent that led to Obito becoming and doing what he did, but I can't appreciate him for doing any sort of "good", because any good he did or any good qualities he had are far out weighed by what he has done. Naruto describing Obito as "cool" goes to show he is completely overlooking what Obito has done and is instead focusing solely on the good he did, which goes to show Naruto's own stupidity and even could lead some to believe he doesn't understand the value of life and that he is insensitive to the atrocities Obito has committed.

That's the thing, we cannot see past the atrocities that Obito has committed to appreciate the guy for the good that he did. Because it's minuscule in comparison. The same does not apply for Naruto. Hell, the same does not apply for some people in real life. Just because we cannot do it does not mean that is wrong for Naruto to. And once again nobody is saying that Obito is forgiven. Or saying that he has a clean slate of any kind, or even skipping over anything he has done. The example is in the Sakura page that I linked. Even though Obito has done all the things that he has done she still thought that she should thank him for saving Naruto. It's the same the case here. So I fail to see how it spits on anyone's grave. If he had forgiven Obito that would be one thing but that was said nowhere. Also, like to point out that I never said that Naruto was right in calling Obito the coolest either. I just never took it as seriously as a lot of people seem to.

And that's you, just like I said above. I wouldn't be able to do it either that doesn't mean that I don't understand why Naruto did it. The rest is your own subjective opinion really. If it really did say all that then the people from his past wouldn't carry so much weight for him. His mother, his father, Jiraiya, Itachi, Hiruzen, Neji none of them would matter. Doesn't understand the value of life… Seriously?

Just because someone does some horrible horrible things does not mean I cannot appreciate them for the person they were before they did those things. In manga example: Hiruzen and Orochimaru.

It also does not mean that because I do this I'm looking past all the horrible things that they did. That's just conjecture.

---------- Post added at 02:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:57 AM ----------

That's the idea behind the criticism with calling Obito the coolest, along with his character not being popular. At least calling Itachi the coolest makes sense because he was not evil, he chose to dirty his hands for Konoha and become an outcast, continuing to protect the village even when he was branded a criminal.


It kind of does. What if Kishi decided to make Tobi Obito at the last minute, but the original plan was to have him really be Madara or Izuna or someone else?

Name one person who choked on candy or was a complete crybaby. Even Naruto vowed to stop being scared, and he did when he got his headband back from Zabuza. It's not about being a bad ninja, to me, but how idiotic and annoying Obito was. I find it hard to believe he's supposed to be Naruto's parallel.




You were not mistaken, especially if you want to consider Sakura's reverse development since the start of the war arc or Pain Invasion. Just my opinion though.

But you never gave the option to where any of those people saved my life or sacrificed something for my sake. Or, recognized what they did wrong and that they did wrong period. Yes, people can't get over what Obito did because that's how they feel. But Naruto is not wrong and should not be treated like he's wrong for appreciating him for the good that he did. It also doesn't mean he is skipping over any of the bad.

And what does that amount to? Conjecture. The characters are one in the same despite our theories of whom Tobi used to be. I didn't think it was Obito either, but it is.

Yeah, Obito was annoying. The gaiden also showed that the guy was inspirational and a good and caring person at heart. I definitely saw that that too. And once again, people grow, they change, look at Sasuke. You always said that you didn't agree with the whole Indra thing mainly because of the fact that Sasuke was a good kid. Well there you go. Obito grew from an annoying crybaby, to a cynical, conniving, murderous, bastard.


Well, I don't really see much of a point though. It's kind of like how we can't bring Naruto back to the way he was in part one. It's all about child of destiny and faith now. I have no idea what Kishimoto's ultimate point was with Sakura but geez.

 

[M3J]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

He's wrong in saying Obito is the coolest, but he would not be wrong in saying Obito was cool or whatever. The way Naruto said it though, it was more due to Obito wanting to be the hokage than anything else. You're right, Naruto and Sasuke should appreciate Obito, I agree with that. I'm just more peeved at Naruto calling Obito the coolest, especially for a dumb reason. Of course, I'm going by my memory, and I could be wrong and Naruto could have mentioned how Obito changed and saved others at the expense of his life.

Unless Kishi says without a doubt that he planned on Tobi being Obito since Gaiden or since Tobi's introduction, then I'll consider them the same. Otherwise, they're still different to me.

But Obito was also beyond an idiot who cried a lot. That's the main issue I have with him being Tobi, who was never portrayed that derpy. I don't agree with the whole Indra-Ashura thing also because it seems to have been made up at the last minute, as well. Sasuke did not grow up to be evil, he was evil for a short period of time, when he was unhinged after learning the truth about Itachi. Even then, it's not like he was all "DESTROY DESTROY DESTROY," he still asked Danzou about the Massacre. Obito was like, "I don't give a shit even though Rin chose to die. FUCK EVERYONE!" Which is what got me facepalming at Sasuke's decision to destroy Konoha, and his current decision.

I think Kishi wanted Sakura to be her own woman and a strong kunoichi, with possible interest in Naruto now, but he fucked up. There were hints that she was romantically interested in Naruto, but she showed to care deeply about Naruto, which is different from Part I when she mainly focused on Sasuke.

 

[Delbi]

Re: Naruto 694 Discussion/ 695 Predictions

That's the thing, we cannot see past the atrocities that Obito has committed to appreciate the guy for the good that he did. Because it's minuscule in comparison. The same does not apply for Naruto. Hell, the same does not apply for some people in real life. Just because we cannot do it does not mean that is wrong for Naruto to. And once again nobody is saying that Obito is forgiven. Or saying that he has a clean slate of any kind, or even skipping over anything he has done. The example is in the Sakura page that I linked. Even though Obito has done all the things that he has done she still thought that she should thank him for saving Naruto. It's the same the case here. So I fail to see how it spits on anyone's grave. If he had forgiven Obito that would be one thing but that was said nowhere. Also, like to point out that I never said that Naruto was right in calling Obito the coolest either. I just never took it as seriously as a lot of people seem to.

And that's you, just like I said above. I wouldn't be able to do it either that doesn't mean that I don't understand why Naruto did it. The rest is your own subjective opinion really. If it really did say all that then the people from his past wouldn't carry so much weight for him. His mother, his father, Jiraiya, Itachi, Hiruzen, Neji none of them would matter. Doesn't understand the value of life… Seriously?

Just because someone does some horrible horrible things does not mean I cannot appreciate them for the person they were before they did those things. In manga example: Hiruzen and Orochimaru.

It also does not mean that because I do this I'm looking past all the horrible things that they did. That's just conjecture.

Right and wrong are a matter of opinion, so frankly you saying that Naruto isn't wrong for doing what he is doing is just an opinion, just like my opinion that what he is doing makes him an asshole.

Naruto isn't making the claims you are making. Naruto flat out defended Obito and called him the "coolest guy". Naruto has made a habit of defending awful humans because he relates to them, and while that is his own prerogative to have faith in every human he comes across, it's a shitty thing for a potential leader to do on a constant basis.

Zabuza, Gaara, Nagato, and Obito. Out of all these people, the only person who atoned for his sins in a meaningful manner in my opinion was Gaara. The fact that these people were a product of the ninja system (much like Itachi and Sasuke) to me is irrelevant. You can feel sorry for them, you can empathize with them (I do). But to praise them as a whole (which is what Naruto does, again he isn't saying what you are saying, he isn't saying their bad acts outweigh their good acts) is just wrong, and it does spit on the graves of innocents they have harmed. I would love for Naruto to sing his praise for all these people in front the family members of the people they killed and see him convince them that they shouldn't be angry with Naruto.

Naruto hasn't done what Sakura did, so comparing the two of them is pointless. To appreciate something means you understand it as a whole, it means you take into account all of it. Naruto doesn't do that when he see's people, or even worse, he does what Hiruzen did and overlooks people for what they've become and what they do. He did this with Sasuke, and he's done this with everyone from Gaara to Obito. His praise of Obito wasn't about the child Obito or the redeemed Obito, it was about Obito as a whole.

Now, I like that Naruto doesn't give up. But there is a difference between giving up and accepting things for how they are.

I won't doubt for stories sake, and because of the message Kishi is trying to portray that Naruto is going to succeed where his ancestors failed and is going redeem and change Sasuke.

But Naruto's hopeless optimism is once again rearing it's head when it comes to Sasuke and I wonder if he has the resolve to kill his friend. I wonder if he has what it takes to accept that Sasuke may be too far gone.

So ultimately, my issue with Naruto calling Obito the "coolest guy" has nothing to do with Obito, it has everything to do with Naruto.

Naruto strives to be a leader, he strives to be Hokage, and yet I don't think he understands (much like Sasuke doesn't) that you being a Hokage isn't about what you think a Hokage is, it's about what the people think a Hokage is. And while the people may choose Naruto to be Hokage, I wonder if they will agree with his sentiments about future people like Obito and Nagato and how Naruto treats them and chooses to punish them, if he even chooses to punish them at all if they repent for their crimes.

 

[KiSwordsman]

Re: Naruto 694 Discussion/ 695 Predictions

Right and wrong are a matter of opinion, so frankly you saying that Naruto isn't wrong for doing what he is doing is just an opinion, just like my opinion that what he is doing makes him an asshole.

Naruto isn't making the claims you are making. Naruto flat out defended Obito and called him the "coolest guy". Naruto has made a habit of defending awful humans because he relates to them, and while that is his own prerogative to have faith in every human he comes across, it's a shitty thing for a potential leader to do on a constant basis.

Zabuza, Gaara, Nagato, and Obito. Out of all these people, the only person who atoned for his sins in a meaningful manner in my opinion was Gaara. The fact that these people were a product of the ninja system (much like Itachi and Sasuke) to me is irrelevant. You can feel sorry for them, you can empathize with them (I do). But to praise them as a whole (which is what Naruto does, again he isn't saying what you are saying, he isn't saying their bad acts outweigh their good acts) is just wrong, and it does spit on the graves of innocents they have harmed. I would love for Naruto to sing his praise for all these people in front the family members of the people they killed and see him convince them that they shouldn't be angry with Naruto.

Naruto hasn't done what Sakura did, so comparing the two of them is pointless. To appreciate something means you understand it as a whole, it means you take into account all of it. Naruto doesn't do that when he see's people, or even worse, he does what Hiruzen did and overlooks people for what they've become and what they do. He did this with Sasuke, and he's done this with everyone from Gaara to Obito. His praise of Obito wasn't about the child Obito or the redeemed Obito, it was about Obito as a whole.

Naruto's appreciating Obito spits on the graves of all those he killed.

Calling Obito the "coolest guy" was awful, and it does spit on the graves of all the people Obito killed.

Hold on now, you outright claimed that him showing appreciation for Obito was equivalent to spitting on the graves of the lives that Obito took. Then later you said that him calling him the coolest was such an equivalent. I heavily disagree with that because that's a gross assumption of what the character meant behind that one word. Like I said before, blowing things way out of proportion. My whole point is that Naruto has the right to be appreciative of the good that Obito did. And that does not mean that he's looking over the bad (Sakura example). That's also ignoring the fact that no one ever said that Obito was forgiven on any level at any point. If that was stated, then I would understand a bit better. It's at that point where you're roping everyone else in. Everyone whose lives were affected by the lives that Obito took. However, that was never stated… Anywhere… Ever. You're basically saying that if someone does me wrong in a major way but does right by me later I don't have the right to thank that person for the right that they did even if they don't deserve it. Otherwise I come off looking like an asshole, that doesn't make sense to me. Because it's not as if I forget the bad that they did, even if it wasn't just me they did bad to.

You saying that that one phrase implies all these things about Naruto's character is just a gross assumption on your part. If that were the case we wouldn't see the guy constantly learning from his past. I'm simply saying that it doesn't really mean all you think it does. Naruto hasn't explicitly stated those things, so it's safe to assume that he's skipping over them? According to whom, you? Someone cannot be appreciated for their actions for another? That's not possible? Come on man, you're taking a lot of liberties here. You use your own definition of how to appreciate something as a gauge for what Naruto is doing. You see why this is a little off? Also, how could you say that he wasn't appreciating kid Obito or redeemed Obito when before Obito died, that's practically all they were talking about? So if anything, that's what Naruto would be talking about when he called him the coolest. Once again, or perhaps the final time, this whole coolest guy was blown way out of portion by the fandom. It's like another member said earlier:

Cool can describe a lot, his [past] character, his appearance, etc. It shouldn't be a suprise to you that a huge number of anti-heroes and villains have been describes as cool throughout all media, despite being human pieces of trash.

Again, I never stated that Naruto was right in calling Obito cool. However, I never took it as seriously as a lot of people seem to. Given what they were talking about before Obito died and how Naruto actually related to the guy. (His past and how he grew up) it never carried the weight that everyone seems to imply that it does, with me.

I've never tried to discuss how Naruto would be as a leader, or tried to get you in that camp. My whole point this entire time has been that he has the right to appreciate Obito for the good that he did. You make the assumption that him calling him the coolest implies all these things that it just doesn't. Also making the assumption that it's roping everyone in that Obito killed when it isn't. Once again, had he forgiven Obito, or tried in some way to pardon him for all his crimes, I could see your point. You can't say that someone deserves forgiveness when most of the atrocities they committed were not directed at you. That's not the case here however.

 

[Delbi]

Re: Naruto 694 Discussion/ 695 Predictions

Hold on now, you outright claimed that him showing appreciation for Obito was equivalent to spitting on the graves of the lives that Obito took. Then later you said that him calling him the coolest was such an equivalent. I heavily disagree with that because that's a gross assumption of what the character meant behind that one word. Like I said before, blowing things way out of proportion. My whole point is that Naruto has the right to be appreciative of the good that Obito did. And that does not mean that he's looking over the bad (Sakura example). That's also ignoring the fact that no one ever said that Obito was forgiven on any level at any point. If that was stated, then I would understand a bit better. It's at that point where you're roping everyone else in. Everyone whose lives were affected by the lives that Obito took. However, that was never stated… Anywhere… Ever. You're basically saying that if someone does me wrong in a major way but does right by me later I don't have the right to thank that person for the right that they did even if they don't deserve it. Otherwise I come off looking like an asshole, that doesn't make sense to me. Because it's not as if I forget the bad that they did, even if it wasn't just me they did bad to.

You have every right to do whatever the fuck you want, just don't expect people to like you or respect you for it. Naruto took no time to explain the meaning behind his words, so we are thus left with the bare bones meaning of "Naruto thinks Obito is the coolest person" in the sense that he is taking Obito as a whole.

That's the issue with Naruto. Him saying "Obito is the coolest" can be taken any number of ways. But the fact of the matter if anyone heard him say that other than the few people present, hardly anyone would agree with him. We can analyze it 100 different ways because we are the readers, we have the best and ultimate perspective. Other characters in the manga don't know what we know, and don't have the information we have.

Just look at Inochi's reaction to how Naruto wanted to handle Nagato. Same thing applies except this is even worse.

You saying that that one phrase implies all these things about Naruto's character is just a gross assumption on your part. If that were the case we wouldn't see the guy constantly learning from his past. I'm simply saying that it doesn't really mean all you think it does. Naruto hasn't explicitly stated those things, so it's safe to assume that he's skipping over them? According to whom, you? Someone cannot be appreciated for their actions for another? That's not possible? Come on man, you're taking a lot of liberties here. You use your own definition of how to appreciate something as a gauge for what Naruto is doing. You see why this is a little off? Also, how could you say that he wasn't appreciating kid Obito or redeemed Obito when before Obito died, that's practically all they were talking about? So if anything, that's what Naruto would be talking about when he called him the coolest. Once again, or perhaps the final time, this whole coolest guy was blown way out of portion by the fandom. It's like another member said earlier:

I'm not taking any liberties, I'm looking at what Naruto's done in the past and what he's continued to do. He's never ONCE condemned all the bad things other people have done, he's simply praised them for the good things.

Sakura plainly stated how shitty Obito was, and then thanked him. Naruto didn't do that.

Naruto's character represents the Jesus figure who see's only the good in people and who is always willing to forgive. But the fact he can't even acknowledge the bad is troubling.

And the fact that you say it doesn't mean what I think it does is a little troubling, because the fact that I can interpret his actions one way means that other people can as well, especially these ninja's is supposed to be a leader of in the future who don't have my omnipotent knowledge as a reader.

 

[KiSwordsman]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

You have every right to do whatever the fuck you want, just don't expect people to like you or respect you for it. Naruto took no time to explain the meaning behind his words, so we are thus left with the bare bones meaning of "Naruto thinks Obito is the coolest person" in the sense that he is taking Obito as a whole.

That's the issue with Naruto. Him saying "Obito is the coolest" can be taken any number of ways. But the fact of the matter if anyone heard him say that other than the few people present, hardly anyone would agree with him. We can analyze it 100 different ways because we are the readers, we have the best and ultimate perspective. Other characters in the manga don't know what we know, and don't have the information we have.

Just look at Inochi's reaction to how Naruto wanted to handle Nagato. Same thing applies except this is even worse.

That's what I been trying to say this entire time. I never once tried to get you to like or respect Naruto for what he was doing. I just said it annoyed me that people could not see why Obito was on that page this week. That people, (readers) legitimately do not understand it based on their own distaste for the character Obito. Treating Naruto like he's wrong for appreciating the character in the slightest, Because of their own inability to do such. Then you went on about it spitting on the grave of the people that Obito has killed which it does not given the fact that his appreciation of Obito does not rope everyone else in with him. Then finally we zero in on this coolest guy thing.

I'm not taking any liberties, I'm looking at what Naruto's done in the past and what he's continued to do. He's never ONCE condemned all the bad things other people have done, he's simply praised them for the good things.

Sakura plainly stated how shitty Obito was, and then thanked him. Naruto didn't do that.

Naruto's character represents the Jesus figure who see's only the good in people and who is always willing to forgive. But the fact he can't even acknowledge the bad is troubling.

And the fact that you say it doesn't mean what I think it does is a little troubling, because the fact that I can interpret his actions one way means that other people can as well, especially these ninja's is supposed to be a leader of in the future who don't have my omnipotent knowledge as a reader.

The reason that I say it does not mean all you think it means, is because you're going to quite the extremes here. It could lead some people to believe that he doesn't understand the value of life? That, I classify as taking a couple liberties. Now I can understand if these things were brought to him, let's say, next chapter by Sasuke. If Sasuke were to say something about it and he replies that Obito is a cool guy I'd totally get your point. However, Naruto has shown even if fairly recent that he actually can sometimes know what the crap he's talking about. Naruto's entire side to this is learning from the past. You're making the assumption that he doesn't take the bad they've done into account just because he has not outright stated that they have done bad is a bit much considering that. Nagato, he could not forgive Nagato for what he had done. But he could understand or try to understand him. If you can't forgive someone, that means that you acknowledge the bad that they have done to you or others. Also, I wouldn't say never once, the Zabuza arc is a thing.

Now, I honestly don't care at this point about whether Naruto becomes Hokage or not. I'm just happy this is gonna be over in like five weeks. It was never my intention to try and convince anyone of Naruto's case regarding leadership or what have you. I've already gotten my initial point across.

 

[Delbi]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

That's what I been trying to say this entire time. I never once tried to get you to like or respect Naruto for what he was doing. I just said it annoyed me that people could not see why Obito was on that page this week. That people, (readers) legitimately do not understand it based on their own distaste for the character Obito. Treating Naruto like he's wrong for appreciating the character in the slightest, Because of their own inability to do such. Then you went on about it spitting on the grave of the people that Obito has killed which it does not given the fact that his appreciation of Obito does not rope everyone else in with him. Then finally we zero in on this coolest guy thing.

I'm treating Naruto likes he's wrong because I think he's become an utter and complete fool who lives in a fantasy world. I can appreciate Obito's circumstances as to why he became a bad person, and I can appreciate a person trying to do some good before they go out. But the fact of the matter is, as a whole, Obito is a low life psychopathic piece of shit who deserves to burn in whatever underworld exists in Naruto's Universe. The fact that Rin met him before he moved into the afterlife is a fucking joke.

And it does spit on the graves of the people that have died. Naruto praising a piece of shit like Obito is very bad look. If the whole alliance was privy to hearing him say that, can you honestly think no one would be pissed? Answer me that.

The reason that I say it does not mean all you think it means, is because you're going to quite the extremes here. It could lead some people to believe that he doesn't understand the value of life? That, I classify as taking a couple liberties. Now I can understand if these things were brought to him, let's say, next chapter by Sasuke. If Sasuke were to say something about it and he replies that Obito is a cool guy I'd totally get your point. However, Naruto has shown even if fairly recent that he actually can sometimes know what the crap he's talking about. Naruto's entire side to this is learning from the past. You're making the assumption that he doesn't take the bad they've done into account just because he has not outright stated that they have done bad is a bit much considering that. Nagato, he could not forgive Nagato for what he had done. But he could understand or try to understand him. If you can't forgive someone, that means that you acknowledge the bad that they have done to you or others. Also, I wouldn't say never once, the Zabuza arc is a thing.

I'm not making an assumption, I'm taking what he said at face value and reacting like a person who had multiple friends killed in this war might react. What Naruto said looks very bad without an explanation. And even with the explanation you seem to think he'd give, plenty of people could still be pissed at him, because there are people who believe that once a person is evil and commits great acts of evil, it doesn't matter what else they do, they are evil and they shouldn't be praised for anything.

The fact is Naruto is trying to become a leader, which means he is held to a higher standard than everyone else, it means he can't act like everyone else.

I refuse to give him a pass or the benefit of the doubt, because if you do that you open up a can of worms that allows in all kinds of shit. A problem the real world has is we treat our leaders just like "normal people". The fact is they aren't normal, and thus shouldn't be treated as such.

Naruto saying what he did could easily be seen as extremely insensitive and it's reasonable to think a lot of people would be pissed off no matter what he said afterwards. You don't do shit like that if you want to be a leader of a massive amount of people, this is like PR 101.

 

[KiSwordsman]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

I'm treating Naruto likes he's wrong because I think he's become an utter and complete fool who lives in a fantasy world. I can appreciate Obito's circumstances as to why he became a bad person, and I can appreciate a person trying to do some good before they go out. But the fact of the matter is, as a whole, Obito is a low life psychopathic piece of shit who deserves to burn in whatever underworld exists in Naruto's Universe. The fact that Rin met him before he moved into the afterlife is a fucking joke.

And it does spit on the graves of the people that have died. Naruto praising a piece of shit like Obito is very bad look. If the whole alliance was privy to hearing him say that, can you honestly think no one would be pissed? Answer me that.

I can see that we're not really going to come to any type of agreement here. So I'll just lay out my point. You can't treat someone like they're wrong for having their own appreciation for someone else regardless of what the latter person did. They have a right to appreciate said person regardless of what anyone else thinks. It should not be treated like there wrong for doing so. You can't tell me I'm wrong for appreciating so-and-so for something that so-and-so has done for me no matter what so-and-so has done to me or others. The same applies for me to you. That is my entire point. If you want to treat Naruto like he's wrong because of how you feel he is as a character that's one thing. But he is not wrong for showing appreciation to Obito for what Obito did for them. Even if Obito doesn't deserve it like you and even the character says.

I still fail to see how it spits on anyone's grave for him to have his own appreciation for the character. We may have moved that from simply having appreciation to this whole "cool guy" thing. But that is what you initially said. That simply appreciating the character, or having appreciation for the character spit on the graves of the ones he killed. Him having his own appreciation for the character does not at all rope anyone else in that died. I never once said that people would not be upset with him for his stance. As you pointed out your, Ino's dad was an example. My irritation regarding the situation is not directed at anyone except the readers for as you say, having the best perspective of the situation yet not understanding simply due to their blind hatred for the character of Obito.

I'm not making an assumption, I'm taking what he said at face value and reacting like a person who had multiple friends killed in this war might react. What Naruto said looks very bad without an explanation. And even with the explanation you seem to think he'd give, plenty of people could still be pissed at him, because there are people who believe that once a person is evil and commits great acts of evil, it doesn't matter what else they do, they are evil and they shouldn't be praised for anything.

The fact is Naruto is trying to become a leader, which means he is held to a higher standard than everyone else, it means he can't act like everyone else.

I refuse to give him a pass or the benefit of the doubt, because if you do that you open up a can of worms that allows in all kinds of shit. A problem the real world has is we treat our leaders just like "normal people". The fact is they aren't normal, and thus shouldn't be treated as such.

Naruto saying what he did could easily be seen as extremely insensitive and it's reasonable to think a lot of people would be pissed off no matter what he said afterwards. You don't do shit like that if you want to be a leader of a massive amount of people, this is like PR 101.

like I said before I never cared to discuss anything regarding Naruto's potential leadership. And trust me, I do agree with a lot of your points. I simply don't agree with the extreme you're taking regarding the character knowing what you know. However if you so choose to do that, that's fine. I never disputed such. I understand the reason that you would do that. However my main point was the above. My irritation with the readers, and the blind character hate regarding Obito. From this point we'll just have to agree to disagree regarding this subject at least. I get your points regarding Naruto as a leader and I never disputed that I just disagree with the extremes like "it might lead people to believe that he doesn't understand the value of life."

 

[Delbi]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

I can see that we're not really going to come to any type of agreement here. So I'll just lay out my point. You can't treat someone like they're wrong for having their own appreciation for someone else regardless of what the latter person did. They have a right to appreciate said person regardless of what anyone else thinks. It should not be treated like there wrong for doing so. You can't tell me I'm wrong for appreciating so-and-so for something that so-and-so has done for me no matter what so-and-so has done to me or others. The same applies for me to you. That is my entire point. If you want to treat Naruto like he's wrong because of how you feel he is as a character that's one thing. But he is not wrong for showing appreciation to Obito for what Obito did for them. Even if Obito doesn't deserve it like you and even the character says.

To me this isn't about Naruto being right or wrong or if I think it's ok to do what he's done. Like I said, everyone is entitled to think what they want. But again, Naruto is being held to a higher standard. So while you may not want to talk about the leadership aspect, it is a HUGE part of this conversation.

Naruto showing appreciation for Obito would have been similar to FDR showing appreciation to Hitler if before he died, Hitler gave the allies valuable intel about the Axis powers that led directly to their defeat. If the ninja world heard Naruto say this, their reaction would be awful.

So while Naruto has every right to have an opinion, that doesn't mean the opinion he has won't be highly scrutinized or even considered wrong, or in this case even considered intelligent. Naruto was incredibly stupid for saying that, and I wonder if he'd say it if everyone could hear him.

I still fail to see how it spits on anyone's grave for him to have his own appreciation for the character. We may have moved that from simply having appreciation to this whole "cool guy" thing. But that is what you initially said. That simply appreciating the character, or having appreciation for the character spit on the graves of the ones he killed. Him having his own appreciation for the character does not at all rope anyone else in that died. I never once said that people would not be upset with him for his stance. As you pointed out your, Ino's dad was an example.

It's spits on their graves because he's praising a mass murdering psychopath. You claim you understand why Inochi was upset, but you don't understand how Naruto saying that isn't spitting on peoples graves? Inochi was upset for that exact reason, because he felt Nagato didn't need to be talked to, he just needed to be killed because he slaughtered the people of Konoha.

My irritation with the readers, and the blind character hate regarding Obito. From this point we'll just have to agree to disagree regarding this subject at least. I get your points regarding Naruto as a leader and I never disputed that I just disagree with the extremes like "it might lead people to believe that he doesn't understand the value of life."

I don't have blind hate for Obito because I understand why he became like he did, I also understand that in his last moments he did some good. But I do find him to be a reprehensible human being, and I don't have the pity for him that I do for Sasuke for a number of reasons.

Sasuke was an innocent little child when his downward spiral began. Sasuke was also affected by a cursed seal, and had been mindfucked by none other than Obito when he was at his weakest point.

Obito was by no means innocent when his spiral began, and he wasn't nearly the child Sasuke was.

Obito was a 13 year old Chunnin who already had a very good moral compass. What he lost pales in comparison to what Sasuke lost.

We saw Obito try and rebel against Madara, but then after Rin died he simply fell to pieces. Obito's relationship to Rin was nothing like Sasuke's relationship to his family or his brother. The betrayal by Kakashi (if you could even call it that) was nothing like the betrayal by Itachi.

So to me, I see Obito as a weaker example from a character growth standpoint that Sasuke. It's easier for me to see how Sasuke became the way he did than to see how Obito did. (This is also thanks to the author as Obito's development was rushed).

So my hate for Obito isn't blind, no far from it. I can't appreciate Obito's transformation like I can appreciate Sasuke's (or even Madara's) because Obito was stronger than both of them, and was changed by situations that were less imposing or heavy, and in the end Obito caused much more pain and suffering than both.

 

[KiSwordsman]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

To me this isn't about Naruto being right or wrong or if I think it's ok to do what he's done. Like I said, everyone is entitled to think what they want. But again, Naruto is being held to a higher standard. So while you may not want to talk about the leadership aspect, it is a HUGE part of this conversation.

Naruto showing appreciation for Obito would have been similar to FDR showing appreciation to Hitler if before he died, Hitler gave the allies valuable intel about the Axis powers that led directly to their defeat. If the ninja world heard Naruto say this, their reaction would be awful.

So while Naruto has every right to have an opinion, that doesn't mean the opinion he has won't be highly scrutinized or even considered wrong, or in this case even considered intelligent. Naruto was incredibly stupid for saying that, and I wonder if he'd say it if everyone could hear him.

No actually it doesn't. The only reason we're talking about the leadership aspect is due to the fact that you brought it to the conversation. You turned it into a conversation about what Naruto would be like as a leader which was never really the point that I was getting at in the first place. You took the conversation and tried to change into something else. Now I understand that the attempt due to the topic of discussion this week. But the bare-bones of what I was talking about you already know.

It's spits on their graves because he's praising a mass murdering psychopath. You claim you understand why Inochi was upset, but you don't understand how Naruto saying that isn't spitting on peoples graves? Inochi was upset for that exact reason, because he felt Nagato didn't need to be talked to, he just needed to be killed because he slaughtered the people of Konoha.

(Since you brought up Sasuke) Weren't you the one saying that Sasuke's words against the rookies about becoming Hokage were understandable due to the fact that, "they do not know what Sasuke knows." That doesn't apply with Inochi because...? I'm not saying that Inochi was wrong in being upset with Naruto given his lack of knowledge of the situation. However, I don't see how that spits on peoples graves due to the fact that Naruto is not speaking for anyone. How him showing appreciation for Obito speaks for anyone else is what I'm confused about. Yes, Obito is a mass murderer and his crimes are inexcusable. However, he knows the good that Obito did even if it does not outweigh the bad and he's thankful for that. It's not speaking for anyone else. See it would be different if it was like Sasuke and Itachi. When Sasuke found out the truth about Itachi, he wanted to destroy the leaf because of what Itachi went through. Even if most of it was not just about him, Sasuke said he wanted to do this for the person that willingly gave themselves for the leaf. Saying that you want to do something for the sake of someone else, when you know that person would not want such a thing. That, in my opinion, is spitting on someone's grave. Because you're roping that dead someone in on what you're trying to do.

Naruto did not forgive Obito, he did not say Obito was pardoned, none of that happened. You trying to make this into a discussion about how he is the leader is held to a higher standard is fine but that's not what I was talking about initially. You just tried to turn conversation into that.

I don't have blind hate for Obito because I understand why he became like he did, I also understand that in his last moments he did some good. But I do find him to be a reprehensible human being, and I don't have the pity for him that I do for Sasuke for a number of reasons.

Sasuke was an innocent little child when his downward spiral began. Sasuke was also affected by a cursed seal, and had been mindfucked by none other than Obito when he was at his weakest point.

Obito was by no means innocent when his spiral began, and he wasn't nearly the child Sasuke was.

Obito was a 13 year old Chunnin who already had a very good moral compass. What he lost pales in comparison to what Sasuke lost.

We saw Obito try and rebel against Madara, but then after Rin died he simply fell to pieces. Obito's relationship to Rin was nothing like Sasuke's relationship to his family or his brother. The betrayal by Kakashi (if you could even call it that) was nothing like the betrayal by Itachi.

So to me, I see Obito as a weaker example from a character growth standpoint that Sasuke. It's easier for me to see how Sasuke became the way he did than to see how Obito did. (This is also thanks to the author as Obito's development was rushed).

So my hate for Obito isn't blind, no far from it. I can't appreciate Obito's transformation like I can appreciate Sasuke's (or even Madara's) because Obito was stronger than both of them, and was changed by situations that were less imposing or heavy, and in the end Obito caused much more pain and suffering than both.

And that, I can understand. I didn't say that your hate for Obito was blind. I was speaking in general terms. But it's the blind hate that I can't stand. People unable to see why Obito holds significant in Naruto's past experiences. And let their blind hatred for the character overrule any sense of reason.

 

[Delbi]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

Naruto did not forgive Obito, he did not say Obito was pardoned, none of that happened. You trying to make this into a discussion about how he is the leader is held to a higher standard is fine but that's not what I was talking about initially. You just tried to turn conversation into that.

No, I am looking at this through the lens of who and what Naruto is. And that does relate to what you are talking about because again, Naruto is held to higher standard now given who he is and what he represents.

Naruto's words clearly give his opinion regarding Obito, and opinion that would greatly anger many people. People are angry with Naruto because his opinion literally cannot be this if he wants to be Hokage. There's a reason Naruto changed his stance on Sasuke when the Rookies turned on him, it was because the Sasuke situation became about more than Team 7. Same thing applies to Obito. Naruto's opinion of Obito can't be based on Naruto's perception of him and how they are similar, it has to be based on Naruto as a potential Hokage and what his people want. Heavy is the Crown a King must wear.

Now correct me if I am wrong here. What you were talking about initially was "people's blind hate for Obito is clouding the fact that Naruto's opinion of him and his words don't overlook what Obito did, and instead it's the similarities between the two of them that made Naruto say what he did".

If I'm wrong let me know.

And if that was what you meant, we still have a problem. What I think you are overlooking is perhaps people can see that Naruto has a connection to Obito, and it is because of that connection that Naruto is biased, and his opinion of Obito is clouded by the fact that Obito wanted to be Hokage, that Obito was a friend to Kakashi, and Obito died doing something good. So people are angry with Naruto for being biased here, especially when Obito is such a shitty person and has killed his friends. Naruto's opinion of Obito is thus skewed, and any normal person wouldn't see Obito that way, and rightfully so. It's like when people of sports teams like a guy on their team despite him being a scum bag, or wife beater, etc.

Saying that you want to do something for the sake of someone else, when you know that person would not want such a thing. That, in my opinion, is spitting on someone's grave. Because you're roping that dead someone in on what you're trying to do.

I agree, but when you praise someone who has killed your friends (I don't care how you put it, calling someone cool or the coolest guy ever is praise), you are spitting on the graves of those who died trying to kill that person.

 

[M3J]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

Didn't Naruto call Obito the coolest just because he wanted to become a hokage, like Naruto? That's the biggest issue I have with Naruto's statement. NOt to mention, Obito became evil for a fucking stupid reason. Even Sasuke didn't start becoming a murderous bastard after the Massacre, he only dedicated his life to avenging his clan by killing Itachi and refused to kill anyone else. Obito became evil and not care about anything simply because Rin died, and he blamed Minato for some odd reason. He even knew what happened, and what Rin died for, and yet he tarnished her memory (as Sasuke was about to do) by dealing damage to Konoha by freeing the Kyuubi.

Like, how can anyone defend the idiot being praised? Because it's Naruto?

 

[Kay3795]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

Didn't Naruto call Obito the coolest just because he wanted to become a hokage, like Naruto? That's the biggest issue I have with Naruto's statement. NOt to mention, Obito became evil for a fucking stupid reason. Even Sasuke didn't start becoming a murderous bastard after the Massacre, he only dedicated his life to avenging his clan by killing Itachi and refused to kill anyone else. Obito became evil and not care about anything simply because Rin died, and he blamed Minato for some odd reason. He even knew what happened, and what Rin died for, and yet he tarnished her memory (as Sasuke was about to do) by dealing damage to Konoha by freeing the Kyuubi.

Like, how can anyone defend the idiot being praised? Because it's Naruto?

Rin's death was the ultimate catalyst to his turning evil, not the cause. He also doesn't blame anyone, but wanted to forcefully drag everyone to his dreamland.

 

[Delbi]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

Rin's death was the ultimate catalyst to his turning evil, not the cause. He also doesn't blame anyone, but wanted to forcefully drag everyone to his dreamland.

Rin's death could have hit Obito hard but the fact that that alone lead him to become the psychopath he did is insane, not to mention completely out of character for Obito. Madara may have been planting seeds of doubt in Obito, but Obito pulled a complete 180 for a very shitty reason. You could claim brain damage, or that he was being influenced by Zetsu but we really don't have evidence of that.

Obito had the opportunity to confront Kakashi, to go home and yet he chose to go back to Madara, for literally no reason. He took Madara at his word, and didn't think he'd betray him.