Shounen Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto

[Rein Avara]

They'll find a way, they always find a way I really want to see sixth path sage mode to its fullest potential the type of things he can do with it.

 

[M3J]

Oh! I remeber Gohan being weaker than Goku and becoming sort of a secondary character after some time during the DBGT but, don't really remeber much of the details. Anyway, the novel of the Boruto movie, states that Naruto and Sasuke are equals in terms of strength, and implies something on the line that a fight of both of them at their full force at the time of the movie would be a world wreking event.

Well, he was weaker than Goku after the timeskip until Elder Kai unlocked his latent power. Even being the most powerful fighter in the universe didn't stop Gohan from losing to Buu, and Goku beating Buu. Fucking ridiculous.

But a world wrecking event? Is that why they didn't go all out against Kaguya?

Gohan also ended as the strongest during the Majin Boo saga, excluding the short lived Goku and Vegeta fusion. And Dragon Ball GT never happened.

Doesn't matter because Goku still saved the day while Gohan for some reason was sacrificed over Hercules. It's like Sasuke saving Ten Ten over Naruto to fight against Kaguya.

 

[nichendrix]

But a world wrecking event? Is that why they didn't go all out against Kaguya?

That one you'll have to ask Kishimoto.

 

[Rein Avara]

I just want an epic Naruto film, with a nice storyline, epic fight scenes and a really mid lengthened gaiden leading the way into the movie... Am I asking for too much here?

 

[nichendrix]

I just want an epic Naruto film, with a nice storyline, epic fight scenes and a really mid lengthened gaiden leading the way into the movie... Am I asking for too much here?

That would be nice but I really don't think Kishi could pull it.

 

[shahdan]

Re: Naruto Gaiden 10 Discussion - Final Chapter

So, with the recent episode of Shippuden a startling revelation was made (one I mentioned in the discussion thread a while back, but everyone claimed I was wrong about). Naruto's Bijuudama FRS really ARE created with his truthseeker orbs as the core. The scene in question is when Madara drops a bunch of Chibaku Tensei and Naruto starts throwing Bijuudama FRS' at them. He tells Kurama he's ready, Kurama says okay, and we see one of the truthseekers floating behind his back move to Naruto's right hand before expanding into an BRS.

But what does this mean/prove? I think it's proof that the elemental reconstitution of each of the bijuu chakra elemental techniques Naruto uses are performed by the beasts and not Naruto himself (notice each time he mentions he's going to perform a bijuu chakra reliant attack, we get an image of said Bijuu as well acknowledging the usage of their power?

Either way,

I thought it was blatantly obvious, but, it's a dire situation for his fans to outright admit his lack of skill in managing the chakra himself.

 

[jaymizzo]

Re: Naruto Gaiden 10 Discussion - Final Chapter

I thought it was blatantly obvious, but, it's a dire situation for his fans to outright admit his lack of skill in managing the chakra himself.

Spoiler

Dat bait though.

 

[Rikudobito]

Re: Naruto Gaiden 10 Discussion - Final Chapter

So, with the recent episode of Shippuden a startling revelation was made (one I mentioned in the discussion thread a while back, but everyone claimed I was wrong about). Naruto's Bijuudama FRS really ARE created with his truthseeker orbs as the core. The scene in question is when Madara drops a bunch of Chibaku Tensei and Naruto starts throwing Bijuudama FRS' at them. He tells Kurama he's ready, Kurama says okay, and we see one of the truthseekers floating behind his back move to Naruto's right hand before expanding into an BRS.

But what does this mean/prove? I think it's proof that the elemental reconstitution of each of the bijuu chakra elemental techniques Naruto uses are performed by the beasts and not Naruto himself (notice each time he mentions he's going to perform a bijuu chakra reliant attack, we get an image of said Bijuu as well acknowledging the usage of their power?

Either way,

Well, that's an old story.

Though, isn't the TSB in question, converted into a TBB ? Basically, that's what Kurama seems to be doing there and then, Naruto adds the Rasen Shuriken's power to it and after the explosion, it turns back into a TSB.

I think it goes back to the general idea that a TBB cannot be performed while the person is in human form. Thus, Naruto needed Kurama to convert the TSB into a TBB. Though, Naruto did perform 6 TBBRS a chapter later, without asking for Kurama's assistance. -[x]

Spoiler

Although, I prefer to wait for the next episode since they may introduce a scene where Naruto asks for Kurama's assistance.

EDIT: Though, I'm not sure why you needed the episode as a reference. It was already illustrated in the manga.

 

[Machi-tan]

I think they didn't go out all against Kaguya because logically they would lose.

It's funny because i remember someone mentioning that Kishi wrote off Madara with Kaguya possessing him because Madara himself was too strong? But then he quickly realized... He literally made the fight against the creator of all Ninjutsu and chakra. The 'God' of the shinobi world.

Althought it'd be interesting to see them trying harder, Kaguya was bound by all chains of Logic to win. Because no Matter how much you throw at her, she'd be back. Access and deeper knowledge of the six paths. Ability to absorb chakra via Byakugan Techniques and Rinnegan techniques. Ability to create new worlds at the drop of a hat. Possession of All tailed beasts. A Kekkai genkai that is literally a one shot killer. Plus she can never die of injuries imposed on her by any form of Ninjutsu?

The only solution was sealing her up i think. Fighting her any other way would always result in the loss of the aggressing party.

Kisihi blew it. Big time. He keeps throwing these scrubs at Naruto and Co that aren't even strong. They are just Plot devices. The funny thing is that these 'plot devices' could've been polished into actual villains.

I mean if he preserved the villain from the Naruto the Last. Refined the Tenseigan's abilities. And had him resurrect the Akatsuki with Shin. It'd be interesting.

Firstly we'd have a byakugan baring villain... so that'd be nice. Secondly, most of the Byakugan's abilities disable and turn powerful enemy's techniques on the user themselves. So he'd be a competent threat for Naruto, if he knew what he was doing. It would literally be a case of, the Strong his enemy, the stronger he is. Plus his chakra form resembles the 6-paths chakra cloak, and if nothing else, it might be the twin brother's equivalent to the paths. I mean it's never been explored what chain of powers the other twin had. It was just explained that he left the earth in his brother's care and went to the moon. For all intents and purposes they might be equal in power. (at least in raw power, not saying one couldn't be more skilled).

Shin could've explored the abilities of the Sharingan more and awakened Susanoo and been competent. I mean he'd have several different Susanoos... (assuming that Susanoo's shape varies from Sharingan to sharingan which it seems to). Some better in certain areas than others. At the very least, if he was able to cast Susanoo with multiple eyes active on it, then the resulting creation would be unlike another Susanoo we'dve seen. Fighting in conjuction with Toneri they've made a good duo.

 

[Rein Avara]

So many plots holes as you said, all this gives us the opportunities to see more developed characters, E.g Naruto with new chakra affinities, actually see him use six path sage mode as an adult...like if kishimoto was actually smart he could maybe do like a 2 Part movie.

 

[KiSwordsman]

Re: Naruto Gaiden 10 Discussion - Final Chapter

Just a quick question. why are anime episodes being relied on for any form of clarification?

 

[nichendrix]

Re: Naruto Gaiden 10 Discussion - Final Chapter

Just a quick question. why are anime episodes being relied on for any form of clarification?

I may be mistaken, but probably because it is easier to see since it is in color, with different voices for each characters and the movements are more accurately portrayed and 2D BW images with balloons?

 

[Zehahaha]

Well Madara looked stronger than Kaguya because of his wealth of experience and was fairly cautious in his fight against Naruto/Sasuke
Kaguya overall lacked that experience despite the huge amount of chakra she possessed, much more than Madara I might add

I dunno, Madara felt more skilled while Kaguya relied purely on raw strength

 

[KiSwordsman]

Re: Naruto Gaiden 10 Discussion - Final Chapter

I may be mistaken, but probably because it is easier to see since it is in color, with different voices for each characters and the movements are more accurately portrayed and 2D BW images with balloons?

The thing is, the anime has a habit of interpreting things incorrectly. So relying on it to validate anything seems a little goofy. Unless Kishimoto says so (movies).

 

[marshall313]

Re: Naruto Gaiden 10 Discussion - Final Chapter

I thought it was blatantly obvious, but, it's a dire situation for his fans to outright admit his lack of skill in managing the chakra himself.

What's your problem with that, anyway?

I think it goes the same to sasuke. He didn't really used his rinnegan's abilities with his skill or anything else, he just literally let his eye/s do its works. And that's it.

 

[Machi-tan]

I can understand that in a battle of two evils, the smarter one comes out on top. But Kaguya isn't even present on that scale i feel like.

She is literally Unkillable. Only way to beat her is to seal her. The same thing they could've done to Madara if they were pressed to that point. I mean Kaguya was a princess, sure. But the clan she headed was a warrior clan. Granted she didn't need to fight much because when news of the fact that she can warp you into a different dimension hits, no one would want to battle that. But she probably did get into a fair number of fights.

On top of that she trained two of the most powerful beings. The Sage and Hamura (who for all intents and purposes is in the same ball park as his brother). Even if she taught them only half of what they know as warriors then it's a certifiable chunk.

Also considering that she fought them for lengthy periods and on multiple occasions, she is clearly no slouch on the battle field. Which is why Naruto and Sasuke beating her made no sense in a way. I mean they only have the Sages inheritance behind them. Hamura's influence/help is no where to be seen. You'd think his descents would notice what's going on and come down to help but nope.

I mean sure. Madara was more aware of the situation, that's entirely correct. And he has plotted and trained for this more. But Kaguyas power just presents itself as untrumpable. She had access and knowledge to all techniques either one of them could think off + their counters. I mean she could've sported a Susanoo if she felt so inclined. And the 'fruit' was supposed to give her complete knowledge of chakra's inner secrets (obviously an Eden's apple reference) so saying that she didn't think that far ahead isn't really much of a cop out when she literally possesses the knowledge of everything chakra.

Long story short. I agree that if Kaguya and Madara were around the same power level, maybe Kaguya having double the chakra... Madara would be stronger.

But Kishi wrote her up in such a way that she seemed perfect. Unkillable. Full knowledge of what you were going to do, years before you even knew (i mean she manipulated Madara into freeing her, so she's not as ditzy as we think). But when he finally got her on paper, he probably was like. Oops... now what? And docked her powers in every aspect and made the fight as buttery as possible to Naruto and Sasuke's victory. I mean with complete and perfect knowledge of Chakra + Kekkai genkai you'd think she would slip into Susanoo armor to prevent the seals from touching her, and used flying thunder God (which her Rinnesharingan + Byakugan saw Naruto use so she should've had an idea of how to pull it off) to fly out of nasty situations. Merge that with Magnet release based attacks + wood to seal and slow Naruto and Sasuke's chakra flow and BAM easy victory for the demi god. That and she literally uses her hair threads to hit chakra points to seal away chakra. She could've shotgun'd Naruto and sasuke with it and used a limbo clone bait and switch to get out of the sealing path.

Again 99% of the time, i would agree with you. Battle experience + Caution + Prior Knowledge = Better fighter. But the Chasm between Kaguya and everyone else in the series at the time made swapping villains to her seem more like a story decision than a smart 'this is a weaker villain' decision.

In a death Battle Kaguya beats everyone in the Series. She would've even beaten the Sage and his twin.

 

[shahdan]

Re: Naruto Gaiden 10 Discussion - Final Chapter

Spoiler

Dat bait though.

Hardly a bait. It's just a simple fact. Let's not give spins to innocuous arguments.

What's your problem with that, anyway?

I think it goes the same to sasuke. He didn't really used his rinnegan's abilities with his skill or anything else, he just literally let his eye/s do its works. And that's it.

I am merely making an observation. His Sage Mode literally does allow him better control and still Bijuus aid him in his endeavour:

Spoiler

Six Paths Sage Mode (六道仙人モード, Rikudō Sennin Mōdo), Sage Justu / Ninjutsu used by Naruto. Most of this page is too blurry to read, so I can only translate some of it.

The big header basically says it's a gift from the ancestor of shinobi that grants a supernatural mental state allowing for the complete, universal comprehension of all things.

From what I can make out of the main body of text, it says that this is a technique that allows the user to quickly grasp the nature of chakra with the skill of a well-studied, highly sensitive master. It also seems to have a bunch of philosphical stuff about the Sage of Six Paths which is hard to make out because I can only read about half of it.

Top caption says that the caster has an unconcious/automatic mastery of the Sage of Six Path's "ability to levitate" (浮遊する能力, fuyū suru nōryoku).

Second caption says, "Kicking a Truthseeker Orb! Surpassing Kurama Mode, his vast chakra lets him perform this risky stunt!"

Third caption says, "His reaction speed meets or exceeds that of Madara in his Ten Tails Jinchuriki Form. It's the height of sensory ability!"

The bottom left caption says, "To acquire the power of the ten tailed beasts is the same as possessing the power of the Sage of Six Paths, so it is accompanied by the same Truthseeker Orbs.

Whereas Rinnegan doesn't grant any Chakra Control abilities and Sasuke's kinda matches Hogoromo's chakra control without any Sage Mode augmentations:

Spoiler

The Viz's translation is even better, but I'll just post the regular one:

I would say Sakura would take the second spot (along with Tsunade) as the Byakugo seal is the pinnacle of Chakra Control. Naruto comes in last after a certain margin. So yeah, just a simple observation. No need to ruffle those perfect feathers.

 

[nichendrix]

Spoiler

I can understand that in a battle of two evils, the smarter one comes out on top. But Kaguya isn't even present on that scale i feel like.

She is literally Unkillable. Only way to beat her is to seal her. The same thing they could've done to Madara if they were pressed to that point. I mean Kaguya was a princess, sure. But the clan she headed was a warrior clan. Granted she didn't need to fight much because when news of the fact that she can warp you into a different dimension hits, no one would want to battle that. But she probably did get into a fair number of fights.

On top of that she trained two of the most powerful beings. The Sage and Hamura (who for all intents and purposes is in the same ball park as his brother). Even if she taught them only half of what they know as warriors then it's a certifiable chunk.

Also considering that she fought them for lengthy periods and on multiple occasions, she is clearly no slouch on the battle field. Which is why Naruto and Sasuke beating her made no sense in a way. I mean they only have the Sages inheritance behind them. Hamura's influence/help is no where to be seen. You'd think his descents would notice what's going on and come down to help but nope.

I mean sure. Madara was more aware of the situation, that's entirely correct. And he has plotted and trained for this more. But Kaguyas power just presents itself as untrumpable. She had access and knowledge to all techniques either one of them could think off + their counters. I mean she could've sported a Susanoo if she felt so inclined. And the 'fruit' was supposed to give her complete knowledge of chakra's inner secrets (obviously an Eden's apple reference) so saying that she didn't think that far ahead isn't really much of a cop out when she literally possesses the knowledge of everything chakra.

Long story short. I agree that if Kaguya and Madara were around the same power level, maybe Kaguya having double the chakra... Madara would be stronger.

But Kishi wrote her up in such a way that she seemed perfect. Unkillable. Full knowledge of what you were going to do, years before you even knew (i mean she manipulated Madara into freeing her, so she's not as ditzy as we think). But when he finally got her on paper, he probably was like. Oops... now what? And docked her powers in every aspect and made the fight as buttery as possible to Naruto and Sasuke's victory. I mean with complete and perfect knowledge of Chakra + Kekkai genkai you'd think she would slip into Susanoo armor to prevent the seals from touching her, and used flying thunder God (which her Rinnesharingan + Byakugan saw Naruto use so she should've had an idea of how to pull it off) to fly out of nasty situations. Merge that with Magnet release based attacks + wood to seal and slow Naruto and Sasuke's chakra flow and BAM easy victory for the demi god. That and she literally uses her hair threads to hit chakra points to seal away chakra. She could've shotgun'd Naruto and sasuke with it and used a limbo clone bait and switch to get out of the sealing path.

Again 99% of the time, i would agree with you. Battle experience + Caution + Prior Knowledge = Better fighter. But the Chasm between Kaguya and everyone else in the series at the time made swapping villains to her seem more like a story decision than a smart 'this is a weaker villain' decision.

In a death Battle Kaguya beats everyone in the Series. She would've even beaten the Sage and his twin.

Wasn't Kaguya the one that ended all wars of her time? She should be at least nearly as much experienced than Madara at the time her twins sealed her. Wouldn't she?

---------- Post added at 09:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:37 AM ----------

The thing is, the anime has a habit of interpreting things incorrectly. So relying on it to validate anything seems a little goofy. Unless Kishimoto says so (movies).

I don't recall that many mistakes comparing anime and manga, there are some differences, but the greatest majority of them are related to censor for even younger audiences or needed adaptations to the media (like chakra being blue being more striking in blue than in yellow), since not everything that works on stand still panels would work properly on animation. There is indeed a difference here and there that clearly are mistakes, but they are very few, and usually not story related, sincerely the only one that I remember right away are mistakes made regarding the color of the color of one of the Jiraya toads in the Chuunin Exam and the color of Kurotsuchi eyes. But story-wise, I don't recall they making mistake bigger than that in the main storyline (I'm not counting fillers, since they are their original material).

I see @ninjabot using it to validate some points is valid, if you consider possible differences due to censorship and/or media adaptation, or any potential mistake that may happen.

 

[KiSwordsman]

What is this, twitter? lol. I don't have an issue with ninjabot. I'm saying in general taking anything from the anime as verification for something from the manga is a little goofy. And all the things you listed, regardless it still the anime getting stuff wrong. Most of the time the anime depicts things it depicts things clearly illustrated in the manga. However when the anime is on its own regarding certain events it's a little screwy. Example, pain versus four tails Naruto fight. That crap was all types of bonkers. And yes, I know it can be argued that the anime needed to pad out that fight. However, it still serves as an example that the anime has its faults.

Hell, I remember a thread claiming that Shin and Indra had the exact same mangekyo sharingan design. Simply because the anime depicted it that way. And I'm not saying that anything is wrong with trying to decipher things from the anime, if one wants to do that more power to them. However, unless made cannon by Kishimoto I don't see how it really holds any weight.

 

[Exodi]

I agree that using the anime as verification perhaps isn't the best method. It's backward, sure.

But I also thought it was pretty obvious that Naruto both used a Truthseeking Ball to create a Tailed Beast Rasenshuriken and that he got help from the tailed beasts to create his multiple variations of elemental Rasengans.


Also, I don't understand your Naruto vs. Pain example. What about the fight in the anime, even with all of the filler, was factually incorrect or misleading?

A better example would be during Jiraiya's fight, where Pa sprayed out a high-pressure stream of water. That's actually supposed to be his tongue.