Discussion Naruto vs. Bleach vs. One Piece Poll

[Newkerzy]

Since, I dont really read OP anymore either, let me pose a question, are they still looking for the One Piece?

And you say that he follows the rules while writing, as others do as well. This is my point in saying "Hypocrites" when people put down some works and unconditionally praise other works when similar things go down in each of them.

You are right about everyone having their own opinion and Im not trying to bash OP right now so please stop getting so worked up, but it just got too silly for me~ Sometimes I feel that I should give it another chance and start reading it again, but I just cant build up the motivation to spend my time doing so~

Don't waste your breath, I already dropped OP a few years back, then decided to pick it up again after all the hype. And I realized it was a total waste of my time to even think of picking it up.

As for character development, I agree that OP does have 'em. But it only affects one arc only.

If I had to say, the composition for OP would be:

70% Battles
20% Character development
10% Plot development.

 

[hibar90]

Don't waste your breath, I already dropped OP a few years back, then decided to pick it up again after all the hype. And I realized it was a total waste of my time to even think of picking it up.

As for character development, I agree that OP does have 'em. But it only affects one arc only.

If I had to say, the composition for OP would be:

70% Battles
20% Character development
10% Plot development.

So Robin and Franky wasn't developed at Water 7 arc? Didn't the engineers had a little back story showing the good times as well? Skypea arc didn't trigger Merry's "evolution"? Brook wasn't developed at Thriller Bark arc? Hey that's 3 arcs already. I could go on about how many "character" development happened at MHQ arc. Ace, Luffy, Mr.2 & 3, WB, Garp. It will help us understand where you're coming from if you actually stated why you feel it was a waste of time. How did you come up with the number? Since, I never bother calculating its composition rather actually reading it. And how is it compared to other Shonen? Perhaps Seinen is more for you

 

[coldrainbow]

I read all 3 of them, in MY OWN OPINION, i would say OP, naruto then bleach,
1)Arts, all mangaka started off beginners and they r getting better, i can now see different styles of them. i would say bleach has good character art/designs, OP has good/creative enviroment art
2)goals/dream, OP, every1 shld know...went to some side paths, war etc. but no useless path if i had to name a "useless" arc, i say the davy back fights but still it is meant for robin to have more time wif the crew b4 she trust them. Naruto too, naruto wanna be the hokage. But he seems to move away from hokage to sasuke.b4 sasuke left, "i will be the hokage" is in most fight, now is "i will bring back sasuke".Bleach is a strange 1,till now i dunno wats ichigo dreams.Pls enlighten me.
3)Fights, OP has good fights, we can see how the enemies get tougher as they advance, from standing up after arlong fight to unable to fight kuma. Naruto has the best fight in the 3 accept when naruto goes kyuubi, and how the side characters become cheerleader like kakashi vs kakuzu.Bleach...i c little fights, all i c is huge slash wave after another.they make it tat only the 13 captains are strong, but still azien just "telepot" and evey1 just explode.
4)rules, OP rules are stated in the start and cleverly such that watever happen is acceptable only for a few iron rules like df user cant swim. i don think BB "ate 2 fruits" his darkness ability can absorb everything so i think he absorb WB's DF.Naruto rules is stated nicely but the element rules came in the middle of it? strange for such a important/game-changing rule.Like b4 elements, x is stronger than y. now not y is stronger cuz of their elements.bleach is strange.At start, ppl tat die goes hollow or the "law order",SS and human world. the where did hell come from? whos in it? im not sure abt this but i still like to voice it out. its is stated in the early arc the quincy kill hollows but unlike shinigami, the spirit did not go to SS, causing disrupts to the world then finally end of the world.Tats y ichigo stop ishida.Suddenly, after the arc/now ishida started killing hollows like flies using flamethrower.Strange ar?

 

[Newkerzy]

So Robin and Franky wasn't developed at Water 7 arc? Didn't the engineers had a little back story showing the good times as well? Skypea arc didn't trigger Merry's "evolution"? Brook wasn't developed at Thriller Bark arc? Hey that's 3 arcs already. I could go on about how many "character" development happened at MHQ arc. Ace, Luffy, Mr.2 & 3, WB, Garp. It will help us understand where you're coming from if you actually stated why you feel it was a waste of time. How did you come up with the number? Since, I never bother calculating its composition rather actually reading it. And how is it compared to other Shonen? Perhaps Seinen is more for you

I do acknowledge the character developments of the characters in OP. But it's barely maintained throughout the story. Take Luffy post-war arc for example. Luffy gained the stronger determination to protect his friends because of Ace's death since he doesn't want anyone that he cares about die in front of him again.

But what do we get after the timeskip?? It's back to old, dumb Luffy again. Sure, Luffy can stay knuckleheaded, but I also wanted to see a slightly mature Luffy where he can get serious about something. Not stay dumb all the time. Hell, he barely has shown improvements in leadership skills. Which I thought was going to be Luffy's growing point. When I read Water 7 arc and Marine War arc, I saw Luffy's potential for leadership. But all of that went down the drain. I thought the new Luffy would be slightly calmer and try to be decisive. We all know, Luffy has a strong desire to protect his friends but what's the point if he just keeps charging on to battles which might endanger his friends that he wants to protect??

I'm sure Roger once hit a low point in his leadership over his crew which will happen to Luffy. But judging by the series, it's gonna take another 10 years..... What I wanted was not only a physically grown Luffy, but also a mentally grown Luffy.

Look at Naruto. Ever since the ending of the Wave arc, Naruto has consistent character development.

During Part 2, the character development did sort of stagger. But I want you guys to remember Pain invasion arc. We saw the great character development in him flourishing from the aftermath. He was able to put himself in Sasuke's shoes for once. But his unfettering determination was incredible. He STILL wanted to bring Sasuke back.

On to the Kage Summit arc:

Now, while I agree with you guys that Naruto was pretty pathetic in the arc, but I want you guys to put yourself in his shoes (talking about the Raikage audience bit). A guy who was desperately seeking any kind of attention from someone. The first person who gave him that kind of attention was Sasuke. After being acknowledged by someone like that, of course you'd want your "bond" back. Now, I know you'd say realistically, Sasuke should be dumped. But you have to be willing to understand why he wants to do this. In order to do this, you have to understand his character. Naruto is the main character who has a heart that's even shinier than gold itself. His incredible kindness inherited from his Father and influenced by his childhood is what made him to be the caring, empathetic person he is.

The reason why he can forgive someone like Nagato is because of his "Pain". The "Pain" he endured during his childhood life and during the invasion is what made him able to relate to Nagato. Because he's shared enough "Pain" in his life to understand what someone in "Pain" would feel.

Then him deciding to fight Sasuke. I'd say that shows he basically doesn't care about Sasuke anymore. But he will still try knock him back to his senses through their fight. That what I believe he's trying to convey.

 

[hibar90]

Look at Naruto. Ever since the ending of the Wave arc, Naruto has consistent character development.

During Part 2, the character development did sort of stagger. But I want you guys to remember Pain invasion arc. We saw the great character development in him flourishing from the aftermath. He was able to put himself in Sasuke's shoes for once. But his unfettering determination was incredible. He STILL wanted to bring Sasuke back.

On to the Kage Summit arc:

Now, while I agree with you guys that Naruto was pretty pathetic in the arc, but I want you guys to put yourself in his shoes (talking about the Raikage audience bit). A guy who was desperately seeking any kind of attention from someone. The first person who gave him that kind of attention was Sasuke. After being acknowledged by someone like that, of course you'd want your "bond" back. Now, I know you'd say realistically, Sasuke should be dumped. But you have to be willing to understand why he wants to do this. In order to do this, you have to understand his character. Naruto is the main character who has a heart that's even shinier than gold itself. His incredible kindness inherited from his Father and influenced by his childhood is what made him to be the caring, empathetic person he is.

The reason why he can forgive someone like Nagato is because of his "Pain". The "Pain" he endured during his childhood life and during the invasion is what made him able to relate to Nagato. Because he's shared enough "Pain" in his life to understand what someone in "Pain" would feel.

Then him deciding to fight Sasuke. I'd say that shows he basically doesn't care about Sasuke anymore. But he will still try knock him back to his senses through their fight. That what I believe he's trying to convey.

I see where you're coming from. You're frustrated by the lack of maturity in Luffy and any change in his personality. But that's who he is. He already has a solid personality from start. He's a nice guy with IQ lower than my age. If you know a friend who's doing just fine. Would you like him to change? There's nothing wrong with him NOW. Later when his action starts killing his crew (atmosphere will be darker obviously) then perhaps there will be a change you wish. But some characters like Mr. 3, who only thinks about himself before do changed.He WAS a good enough leader, until Sabaody Archipelago Arc. Other pirates fail where Luffy raised to supernova title, AND saving a crew mate. Kidd is where he's at because he's notorious. That's the kind of character than needed change. OP stays true at its heart to remain "fun". For adult like me it's how Oda can tease emotion and stronger plot development and consistency without feeling dragged. OP universe is just huge from the start.

On the other hand you can't expect a juvenile like Naruto at start to be the president of ninja. He had many flaws aside from being a retard at start. It's completely different being a hokage and a "Pirate" king. Yet after 500 chapters, he has done nothing that's remotely close to help him pursue his goal. It just sort of "happen" as he chases sasuke. The only change I see in him was at Kage summit where he actually use non-violent method for once. The old naruto probably rushed and get his ass kicked.

After 200+ chapters he's still obsessed. In Pain arc, what kind of development did he get other than SM? It still old "beat them to a pulp so you better listen". In your post Naruto development seems to about "putting himself in others shoe". Didn't he do that in Part I during Suna Invasion Arc? Sasuke was not even the first to pay Naruto attention. He had Iruka. Then before sasuke abandoned him, Naruto himself acknowledge that he has many companions that care and respect him (during garaa fight). To go after Sasuke is completely nuts and immature. A change would be if he realize he has more important things to do in life.

But, as I can understand if you compare ONLY the main character, perhaps there are more changes in naruto compared to luffy. But this is to be expected from a manga called "Naruto" no? It's all about him and well sasuke. Oda wrote about these two as one supporting character characters. Ace, a juvenile kid with a big dream dying in the end because he wants to avenge his nakama. Luffy had developments but he just doesn't change. OP is more broad.

 

[Kaiten]

Luffy has shown leadership/charisma since the beginning of the series, that was supposed to be one of his strengths since the beginning. He's the outwardly dumb, goofy, idiot until things get tough. When they do he lowers his head, grits his teeth and always finds a way to come through for his friends. He's been doing it since the Captain Morgan arc. One Piece isn't about growing up like Naruto and Bleach; it's about being an individual and living life by your own rules. Luffy has to stay a fun loving idiot, it's who he is. In a manga about being yourself making the main character a serious adult would compromise the message. The time skip was done to avoid a long training arc, Luffy and his friends had to get stronger to face the new world. Like Kishi, Oda didn't want to do a long training arc.

 

[Newkerzy]

I see where you're coming from. You're frustrated by the lack of maturity in Luffy and any change in his personality. But that's who he is. He already has a solid personality from start. He's a nice guy with IQ lower than my age. If you know a friend who's doing just fine. Would you like him to change? There's nothing wrong with him NOW. Later when his action starts killing his crew (atmosphere will be darker obviously) then perhaps there will be a change you wish. But some characters like Mr. 3, who only thinks about himself before do changed.He WAS a good enough leader, until Sabaody Archipelago Arc. Other pirates fail where Luffy raised to supernova title, AND saving a crew mate. Kidd is where he's at because he's notorious. That's the kind of character than needed change. OP stays true at its heart to remain "fun". For adult like me it's how Oda can tease emotion and stronger plot development and consistency without feeling dragged. OP universe is just huge from the start.

On the other hand you can't expect a juvenile like Naruto at start to be the president of ninja. He had many flaws aside from being a retard at start. It's completely different being a hokage and a "Pirate" king. Yet after 500 chapters, he has done nothing that's remotely close to help him pursue his goal. It just sort of "happen" as he chases sasuke. The only change I see in him was at Kage summit where he actually use non-violent method for once. The old naruto probably rushed and get his ass kicked.

After 200+ chapters he's still obsessed. In Pain arc, what kind of development did he get other than SM? It still old "beat them to a pulp so you better listen". In your post Naruto development seems to about "putting himself in others shoe". Didn't he do that in Part I during Suna Invasion Arc? Sasuke was not even the first to pay Naruto attention. He had Iruka. Then before sasuke abandoned him, Naruto himself acknowledge that he has many companions that care and respect him (during garaa fight). To go after Sasuke is completely nuts and immature. A change would be if he realize he has more important things to do in life.

But, as I can understand if you compare ONLY the main character, perhaps there are more changes in naruto compared to luffy. But this is to be expected from a manga called "Naruto" no? It's all about him and well sasuke. Oda wrote about these two as one supporting character characters. Ace, a juvenile kid with a big dream dying in the end because he wants to avenge his nakama. Luffy had developments but he just doesn't change. OP is more broad.

I think you're misunderstanding his obsession. After he met Sasuke at the end of the Kage Summit arc, he definitely somewhat did let go of his obsession.

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/488/4

Read what Kakashi said. This indicates that Naruto has let go of Sasuke for the most part. Now, all he's going to do is wait for the day when they meet again to come. And when that day comes, he will "communicate" with Sasuke with his "fists". By doing so, Naruto is trying to understand Sasuke.

As for Iruka and Sasuke, Yes, it was Iruka who outright said the words he wanted to hear and gave attention to him. But Sasuke was first because of his subtle acknowledgement when they were kids.

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/229/16

As for Naruto's ascension to Hokage, I think that will be shown in the War. Seriously, this is the best opportunity to showcase his to become a mature leader.

 

[juUnior]

He's the outwardly dumb, goofy, idiot until things get tough. When they do he lowers his head, grits his teeth and always finds a way to come through for his friends.

That's like reading about Naruto and his character

One Piece isn't about growing up like Naruto and Bleach; it's about being an individual and living life by your own rules.

I think that's the problem in these mangas: whether you like "growing up" or "being an individual and living life by your own rules.". The thing which I wanted to point out is that it can be applied to Naruto <I'm not concerned with Bleach right now xd> as well. The problem would arise only if we include HOW it is put into effect.

 

[shinsengumi]

I do acknowledge the character developments of the characters in OP. But it's barely maintained throughout the story. Take Luffy post-war arc for example. Luffy gained the stronger determination to protect his friends because of Ace's death since he doesn't want anyone that he cares about die in front of him again.

But what do we get after the timeskip?? It's back to old, dumb Luffy again. Sure, Luffy can stay knuckleheaded, but I also wanted to see a slightly mature Luffy where he can get serious about something. Not stay dumb all the time. Hell, he barely has shown improvements in leadership skills. Which I thought was going to be Luffy's growing point. When I read Water 7 arc and Marine War arc, I saw Luffy's potential for leadership. But all of that went down the drain. I thought the new Luffy would be slightly calmer and try to be decisive.

you should consider character development in between the lines of the said universe . OP world contains strong absurdity and the main character is the clown of the show (not to offend buggy) .. you cant expect maturity out of luffy in a realistic fashion . or semi-realistic . or quarter ... there will be some short moments of seriousness once in a while but thats it

IMO , its just the way it should be anyway . i would have a hard time getting used to a luffy who is cool/calm/mature/wise all the time .. i would take it as a mistake where the development doesnt fit with the known characteristics of the guy .. for ex: no matter what happens and what sort of events occur , i can never accept Zoro becoming chatty and friendly with people .. its the same with luffy , he is the kind of guy who stays childish forever because thats the way he enjoys living . it must stay unchanged IMHO

on the other hand ; there is some development already ;
knowing the kind of guy luffy is ;

he should have been unable to recover from the pain of losing Ace but he could let it go .he didnt lose his way . this dumbness again is the proof that he could mature in a sense because otherwise , he had to be still crying somewhere if not commited suicide already
its all about THE WILL OF D. which can not get shaken ,shattered or broken . As people said above , this manga is not about growing up and properly getting into adulthood , its about living your life to the fullest and chasing after your dreams
for this to happen , goofyness and recklessness are the feats which can help luffy the most . if he were to be some considerate and calculating guy, he wouldnt dare experiencing such dangerous adventures to this level

you see ; character development in OP is not about becoming mature but staying childish in the face of horrible things you live through

We all know, Luffy has a strong desire to protect his friends but what's the point if he just keeps charging on to battles which might endanger his friends that he wants to protect??

well from that logic , staying at home would be the wisest choice but he doesnt just want to protect his friends . he wants to be the pirate king , he wants to find one piece , he wants a crew helping him on this journey , he wants to protect those people who share his dreams .he doesnt want to protect his friends like a mother wants to protect her children keeping them from doing anything unsafety

 

[Josl]

I never understood why some people say there is no or less character development in OP than in Naruto.

There is quite a lot of it only done more subtle and therefore feels more natural.

The most obvious ones for Luffy are his defeat by Aokiji and his failed attempt to protect his friends and his brother after which his resolve and his will were crushed. After he overcame the dead of his brother his resolve and his will became even stronger and what long term affect this has is obvious in a Manga where resolve and will mean everything.

But there are also the less obvious ones like for example when they where in Drum and Luffy wanted to beat them all up but Vivi taught him to kneel if he wants something. He did it than on Amazon Island and begged by kneeing for the depetrification of Marguerite and her friends.

In OP there isn’t only one main character but there are 9(at the moment).
Not only did every one of them get his own flashback to show exactly why they behave the way they are but they keep also developing after their arc.

Zoro went from: ”I’m going to kill you if you stand in the way of my ambition” to the willingness of trading his own life for that of his captain and even kneeling before his arch enemy for the sake of the crew.

Ussop is the one Strawhat who can be easily compared in terms of character development with the character Naruto. He is the one who wants to change and has changed the most. He goes through character development every time he chooses to fight even tough he is incredible scared. The Water7/Enemies Lobby arc has shown perfectly how he feels about it and his place in the crew.

I don’t want to write about everyone something or it will be too long. In short their own mini arcs before the time skip doesn’t only show their resolve but it shows perfectly where they are right now in terms of character development and how far they have come since meeting Luffy in comparison to the way they were before meeting him.

But not only do the main characters go through character development but also the often defeated villains.
Crocodile was the average but awesome villain and after he was defeated we learned that his ambition was to be the pirate king. Than later we hear that he was defeated by Whitebeard and therefore stopped his ambition and tried a different way.
A lot of villains get their own Cover story to develop their story or character even further. Arlong even though he last appeared 10 years ago and will not appear again in the Manga will probably get some kind of character development in the Fishman island arc.

Let’s not even speak about the secondary cast. Every time they enter an island there is practically a ton of development for not only the named but also unnamed characters. The support cast shouldn’t be forgotten either(Helmeppo, Copy, Smoker, Tashigi, Supernova, Garp, Sengoku, Mr 3, Mr2, Crocodile and the countless others I didn’t mentioned)

Naruto was once very similar to OP. In the first arc, Naruto influenced a whole Village to change and fight for what they believe. The villains got awesome characterisation and the main cast awesome character development. After that very good arc we got a very strong and awesome Support cast and very good villains. But at some point Kishi decided to focus only on a few “chosen” characters.

So in Naruto there might be more character development per character but in general there is more character in OP.

 

[ashher]

I gave up one piece so long ago that i prolly don't even have the right to comment on it anymore. What i can say though is from time to time i tried to pick up a recent chapter...and i saw the same old ppl when i read the old characters. On the other hand at times when i go back and read some old naruto panel...it almost always make me smile to see how 'different' he was. Proof of a smooth development i would say. Indeed as far as i had read one piece, i never felt that characters(or anything other than the plot) were the primary strength (or aim) there...it has always been plot/storytelling. And its been the other way round for Naruto...where the plot mostly serves to build premise of showing the development of mainly 2 characters(and a few other secondarily). But really the OP fans should not feel it necessary to prove that oda is master of every aspect (neither is kishimoto), or that One Piece is not based on the strenght of popular plot. Even LOTR is average at best in every other aspect of writing except for storytelling...that doesn't stop it from being a great literary work(not that i think LOTR=OP lol).

---

And about the character development in One Piece, i suspect there must be some at least. Without at least a certain minimum of it you can't tell a story well enough to hold such popularity (Twilight is arguably a sad exception lol). But as i said before, it IS prolly the minimum acceptable and has never been the primary focus or strength of OP.

---

 

[hisoga]

first, please forgive me for my bad english..

Don't waste your breath, I already dropped OP a few years back, then decided to pick it up again after all the hype. And I realized it was a total waste of my time to even think of picking it up.

As for character development, I agree that OP does have 'em. But it only affects one arc only.

If I had to say, the composition for OP would be:

70% Battles
20% Character development
10% Plot development.

so, how about naruto and bleach?

I do acknowledge the character developments of the characters in OP. But it's barely maintained throughout the story.

First, what do you mean by character development? i mean, from what i understand from your post, it sound like OOC than character development.

Take Luffy post-war arc for example. Luffy gained the stronger determination to protect his friends because of Ace's death since he doesn't want anyone that he cares about die in front of him again.

But what do we get after the timeskip?? It's back to old, dumb Luffy again.

"doesn't want anyone that he cares about die in front of him again"- luffy already established this kind of development since he is 10 years old, or when Sabo "died". and also when you want to protect your family or friends, doesn't mean that you have to become completely different person.

Sure, Luffy can stay knuckleheaded, but I also wanted to see a slightly mature Luffy where he can get serious about something. Not stay dumb all the time. Hell, he barely has shown improvements in leadership skills.

i don't know if you actually read and understand one piece, but luffy were showed serious and capable of making tough decision and act as a leader. first when he meet zoro for the first time. despite being told by everybody that zoro is a bad guy but he still wanted to go to see for himself what kind of guy zoro were and he saw a girl gave zoro riceball. because of that he believe zoro were a good guy and wanted zoro to be his crewmate.

then, when luffy hold himself, yosaku and his buddy from interfering zoro vs mihawk.

willing to bow his head to an strangers that attacking his friends at drum island for the sake of nami?

making a decision to directly confront crocodile rather then running around to find the rebellion army lead by kohza. and he getting punch by vivi because of this decision.

Which I thought was going to be Luffy's growing point. When I read Water 7 arc and Marine War arc, I saw Luffy's potential for leadership. But all of that went down the drain. I thought the new Luffy would be slightly calmer and try to be decisive.

if i'm not mistaken luffy is trying to stay low after the timeskip and he even wear that fake mustache that he initially don't want to wear.

We all know, Luffy has a strong desire to protect his friends but what's the point if he just keeps charging on to battles which might endanger his friends that he wants to protect??

and can you list any event from the manga to justified this statement.

I'm sure Roger once hit a low point in his leadership over his crew which will happen to Luffy. But judging by the series, it's gonna take another 10 years..... What I wanted was not only a physically grown Luffy, but also a mentally grown Luffy.

yeah, i like to see that to. but not OOC.

Look at Naruto. Ever since the ending of the Wave arc, Naruto has consistent character development.

can you give couple of example to strenghten your statement. please.

During Part 2, the character development did sort of stagger. But I want you guys to remember Pain invasion arc. We saw the great character development in him flourishing from the aftermath.

i'm sorry but i failed to see any development in naruto in pain invasion arc. all i see is that kishimoto destroying konoha and its ninja image as a powerful village and how important teamwork is.

He was able to put himself in Sasuke's shoes for once. But his unfettering determination was incredible. He STILL wanted to bring Sasuke back.

this is during Kage Summit arc if i'm not mistaken. "able to put himself in Sasuke's shoes for once" - can you elaborate this statement, please.
because i don't remember he did that.

On to the Kage Summit arc:

Now, while I agree with you guys that Naruto was pretty pathetic in the arc, but I want you guys to put yourself in his shoes (talking about the Raikage audience bit). A guy who was desperately seeking any kind of attention from someone. The first person who gave him that kind of attention was Sasuke. After being acknowledged by someone like that, of course you'd want your "bond" back. Now, I know you'd say realistically, Sasuke should be dumped. But you have to be willing to understand why he wants to do this. In order to do this, you have to understand his character. Naruto is the main character who has a heart that's even shinier than gold itself.

Naruto is pretty much pathetic in part 2. he was my second favorite character after jiraiya in part 1.
yes, i agree that naruto have a big heart but big heart alone is not enough to save somebody and let alone to be a leader of a village. and even if he put himself in sasuke shoes like you said, the damages cause by sasuke are no longer between he and sasuke alone. its already up to between countries. naruto can forgive sasuke but that alone cannot redeem sasuke. what i want to say is that Naruto is actually the same person he was, hot-headed boy who always charge at enemy and in this case he don't charge at enemy but he selfishly wanted to save his friend without even think about other people and the consequences of his and sasuke actions.

His incredible kindness inherited from his Father and influenced by his childhood is what made him to be the caring, empathetic person he is.

lol.. before that 16 years old flashback "arc" that explain what happen in konoha 16 years ago, Yondaime is a great guy in my opinion but after that flashback, he is one of the most stupid and lame character in Naruto..

The reason why he can forgive someone like Nagato is because of his "Pain". The "Pain" he endured during his childhood life and during the invasion is what made him able to relate to Nagato. Because he's shared enough "Pain" in his life to understand what someone in "Pain" would feel.

yeah, still up to this point plus current chapter development, naruto still don't act maturely but instead he is stupider and less inspiring than in part 1 counterpart. i failed to see how can you criticize luffy for his goofiness but at the same time praising naruto. naruto don't even develop in any way to become a HOKAGE. maybe his strength. he is really stupid starting when he's in journey to meet Bee.

Then him deciding to fight Sasuke. I'd say that shows he basically doesn't care about Sasuke anymore. But he will still try knock him back to his senses through their fight. That what I believe he's trying to convey.

Naruto doesn't care about Sasuke anymore but he will still try to knock some sense into Sasuke. yeah, great!

I gave up one piece so long ago that i prolly don't even have the right to comment on it anymore. What i can say though is from time to time i tried to pick up a recent chapter...and i saw the same old ppl when i read the old characters. On the other hand at times when i go back and read some old naruto panel...it almost always make me smile to see how 'different' he was. Proof of a smooth development i would say.

Sir, can you please elaborate.. i'm sorry,i can't understand what are you trying to say.

Indeed as far as i had read one piece, i never felt that characters(or anything other than the plot) were the primary strength (or aim) there...it has always been plot/storytelling. And its been the other way round for Naruto...where the plot mostly serves to build premise of showing the development of mainly 2 characters(and a few other secondarily).

i'm not good with literature so can you please explain your statement using any point from the manga.. both manga. seriously, i just pick up one piece chapter from time to time but i think i totally understand the plot, the story, the characters and their development..

But really the OP fans should not feel it necessary to prove that oda is master of every aspect (neither is kishimoto), or that One Piece is not based on the strenght of popular plot. Even LOTR is average at best in every other aspect of writing except for storytelling...that doesn't stop it from being a great literary work(not that i think LOTR=OP lol).
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sir, this thread is not about Oda is greatest writer or Kubo is Trolling master or Kishi is Kishi but this thread is for poll and discussions which is better manga/anime. so yeah, people give their opinion and discuss. when you give your opinion please expect some reply.. good or bad.

and one thing i notice recently not only in mangahelpers but also other forums, that it is okay for somebody to critics/comment (good or bad) or talking bad about one piece but when others reply trying to explain or trolling back, that somebody will response by saying one piece fanbase suck oda's dick or something like that.. or simply one piece fanbase sucks..

And about the character development in One Piece, i suspect there must be some at least. Without at least a certain minimum of it you can't tell a story well enough to hold such popularity (Twilight is arguably a sad exception lol). But as i said before, it IS prolly the minimum acceptable and has never been the primary focus or strength of OP.
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i suggest that you trying to read one piece from the start,slowly and without any prejudices. just for fun.
its a fun manga writen for kids.

 

[ashher]

@ hisoga, i've elaborated the underlined sentences(specially that about naruto) so many times that i can't really work up the energy anymore lol. Anyways they mean exactly what they seem to mean...i don't detect any significant change in the characters of One Piece, and in Naruto i do. And when i compared Oda with Kishi...it wasn't because i was trying to prove 'the greatest', i was merely commenting on where their styles, and consequently the strengths of the 2 mangas differ. I said that there is characterization in One Piece, but only the amount which is necessary to make the plot 'fun' as you put it. On the other hand the plot in Naruto was tailored in such a way that a few main characters can be developed to much greater extent. In short, characters serve the purpose of making an enjoyable story in One Piece,while in Naruto the story serves the purpose of making an enjoyable reading about the characters(contrary to what many seems to think, that doesn't mean that the characters would have to be more likeable either). Last of all i most certainly did not assume to tell the OP fans not to answer. I only said that one can just say that OP has much more exciting plot, lots of fun to read...just like you said, and that alone can justify why one can prefer OP to Naruto. Of course if one honestly thinks that characterization better in One Piece, that he/she reads it not for the plot but for the characters...then he/she should absolutely argue for it as well. (its just that i won't be lured into that one debate...enough is enough for me lol)

 

[Divinenega]

One Piece:

50% Characters
20% Battles
30% Plot

Naruto

15% Characters
30% Battles
55% Plot

Bleach

99% Battles
.99% Plot
.01% Characters

One Piece has the best balance therefore One Piece wins.

 

[Newkerzy]

What, are you serious?? not trying to troll here, but OP has more battles than you can count with your fingers compared to Naruto.

Naruto is:
45% Battles
35% Characters
20% Plot

OP is:
70% Battles
20% Character
10% Plot

The plot in Naruto is more character driven compared to the others. So that's why its character gets more percentage than plot.

 

[hisoga]

@ hisoga, i've elaborated the underlined sentences(specially that about naruto) so many times that i can't really work up the energy anymore lol. Anyways they mean exactly what they seem to mean...i don't detect any significant change in the characters of One Piece, and in Naruto i do.

lol.. or you just simply don't know what to write?
you are not the first person that i ask to give an example from the manga, elaborate and explain it rather than blindly claim, "oh!! in naruto the character is much better develop than bleach and one piece despite i don't read one piece, just randomly pick up a chapter so i can see the character development" but never give any prove. seriously, how can you attach to a person and understand him/her if you don't actually involve with him/her? you don't see or notice any development in one piece characters because you don't really know them and understand them. thats why i said, try to read it from the beginning, patiently, without any prejudice. and then comment whatever you want.

And when i compared Oda with Kishi...it wasn't because i was trying to prove 'the greatest', i was merely commenting on where their styles, and consequently the strengths of the 2 mangas differ. I said that there is characterization in One Piece, but only the amount which is necessary to make the plot 'fun' as you put it. On the other hand the plot in Naruto was tailored in such a way that a few main characters can be developed to much greater extent. In short, characters serve the purpose of making an enjoyable story in One Piece,while in Naruto the story serves the purpose of making an enjoyable reading about the characters(contrary to what many seems to think, that doesn't mean that the characters would have to be more likeable either). Last of all i most certainly did not assume to tell the OP fans not to answer. I only said that one can just say that OP has much more exciting plot, lots of fun to read...just like you said, and that alone can justify why one can prefer OP to Naruto. Of course if one honestly thinks that characterization better in One Piece, that he/she reads it not for the plot but for the characters...then he/she should absolutely argue for it as well. (its just that i won't be lured into that one debate...enough is enough for me lol)

please enlighten me all the development for the main characters in Naruto.
because i don't see one starting the timeskip. more screen time doesn't mean there are development in it. power up doesn't mean the character is develop as a character.

What, are you serious?? not trying to troll here, but OP has more battles than you can count with your fingers compared to Naruto.

Naruto is:
45% Battles
35% Characters
20% Plot

OP is:
70% Battles
20% Character
10% Plot

The plot in Naruto is more character driven compared to the others. So that's why its character gets more percentage than plot.

lol..
how do you come up with this number?
if i'm not mistaken every problem in naruto also are solve with battle.
but i don't deny that in part 1 the story much more focus on naruto, and as a reader we can see naruto growing up and move much closer to his dream. but only in part 1. and that is why the manga is called Naruto.


The plot in Naruto is more character driven compared to the others. So that's why its character gets more percentage than plot - going by this logic, Naruto part 2 should be name to Sasuke or Sasuke shippuden for the anime.

 

[ashher]

Now now... i say that that i don't want to write, and you say that i don't have anything to write...then you must be the one who is correct! Plz this is childish baiting, it almost seems like you can't live with the fact that someone might think Naruto better, or that Naruto could actually be better than OP in any aspect of writing. I on the other hand am perfectly comfortable with the enormous OP fanbase who think its so superior. So who is the one with prejudice, come again? BTW, if you are really so much interested in being 'enlightened', (rather than in 'making your points' really)...you can check out my old posts from my profile. See for yourself if i really had nothing to say about characterization in Naruto(specially after the time skip) or not.

---

I do wonder what it'll take me to prove that i am really not anti-OP or anything. Whenever i say i like Naruto and not OP...ppl just assume that i am a OPhater, or a Naruto fanboy, or i, as the things stand currently, am prejudiced. I've tried in many ways: like saying i am not that big of a fan of shonens in the 1st place, or that my favorite shonen is FMA, or that i like both DGM and Pandora Hearts almost as much as i like Naruto, that i cannot really enjoy 'fun, exciting' mangas like one piece and fairy tail after a certain period after which the excitement of plot solely can no longer hold my fascination...but to no avail. It seems to me that the only way of not being prejudiced against One Piece is to love and worship One Piece as a rule! nothing less would stop you from being absolutely, undoubtedly, irreversably verdicted as 'found guilty for prejudice, bad taste, fanboyism etc etc'...by the Court of the cool Pirates.

 

[hisoga]

Now now... i say that that i don't want to write, and you say that i don't have anything to write...then you must be the one who is correct! Plz this is childish baiting, it almost seems like you can't live with the fact that someone might think Naruto better, or that Naruto could actually be better than OP in any aspect of writing. I on the other hand am perfectly comfortable with the enormous OP fanbase who think its so superior. So who is the one with prejudice, come again? BTW, if you are really so much interested in being 'enlightened', (rather than in 'making your points' really)...you can check out my old posts from my profile. See for yourself if i really had nothing to say about characterization in Naruto(specially after the time skip) or not.
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I do wonder what it'll take me to prove that i am really not anti-OP or anything. Whenever i say i like Naruto and not OP...ppl just assume that i am a OPhater, or a Naruto fanboy, or i, as the things stand currently, am prejudiced. I've tried in many ways: like saying i am not that big of a fan of shonens in the 1st place, or that my favorite shonen is FMA, or that i like both DGM and Pandora Hearts almost as much as i like Naruto, that i cannot really enjoy 'fun, exciting' mangas like one piece and fairy tail after a certain period after which the excitement of plot solely can no longer hold my fascination...but to no avail. It seems to me that the only way of not being prejudiced against One Piece is to love and worship One Piece as a rule! nothing less would stop you from being absolutely, undoubtedly, irreversably verdicted as 'found guilty for prejudice, bad taste, fanboyism etc etc'...by the Court of the cool Pirates.

i'm sorry if you feel that way.
but what i want is some good point from you and people who think naruto is better than bleach and one piece. for example in this thread alone ( i already read this thread twice- i know it's not that many), when somebody said naruto is good, they never explain with any prove from the story itself. same goes for bleach. but when it come to one piece, most of the time there will be opinion with an example from the story itself. they explain their opinion. there will be wall of text.

you see me defended one piece because most of the time because people that said one piece is lesser than naruto and bleach put more effort in their post to explain why they think one piece is lesser than the other two. but when it come to justify their opinion on why they think naruto and bleach is better manga, they don't explain it. you can see for yourself if you don't believe me. so, there is no room for me to gain more knowledge on naruto and bleach and off course to defend naruto and bleach..

and if you have a point, sare it, prove it and don't just QQ.. and and regarding One Piece fan-base too defensive, i already told you in my previous post. most of the problem come from the individual who claimed one piece "suck" compare to naruto and bleach, most of the time, they actually don't read one piece like they do with naruto and bleach. art suck so not interested, childish so not interested, already drop it drop it long time ago but still want to give a comment. for example like yourself. you(people) don't even have a basic knowledge but still act like you know everything. when lost an argument, you will start to say something like One Piece fan-base too defensive, worshiping One piece, think Oda is god or whatever. and much worse start to claim Shonen suck compare to seinen, or it just a children comics so no need to work up although before that you yourself getting involve in the discussion and stating your opinion like its a fact.

and i'm a naruto fans myself, i read it from from chapter 1, own 3 different language of its manga in my collections. 1st in Indonesia language, 2nd my own language and 3rd English when i discover that we can read the manga much faster in internet 2 years ago. same reason why i buy the Indonesia version because its much faster than in my language. but i still buy my language version when its come out.

 

[ameya730]

@hisoga

there are two main points where i feel naruto is better than one piece is the fight sequences and the antagonists.

one piece being the adventures kind of manga tends to have very stereotypical villains. while i love some of the villains in one piece i dont really care about them. till now blackbeard is the only villain from one piece that i have cared about. cause his character is really well written.

the rest of them including akoji, the magma guy, enel, etc felt very generic. i realize that this is due mainly due to the arc theme of one piece where every island can to a certain extent be viewed as a distinct from the main story and still be enjoyed, but the negative effect atleast for me is you dont care for the villains. they either become fodder or in the future arcs they turn out to be good like buggy, crocodile etc.

i love the villains in naruto mainly because they have a very actual presence in the working of the story. the story of naruto is as much about madara, about kabuto, about orochimaru and about sasuke. they have grown as naruto has grown especially sasuke and kabuto.

orochimaru inspite of being in an eternal genjutsu we still see that he has influence over the plot of the manga which brings a smile to my face.danzou is the kind of bastard that you feel sorry about. kisame inspite of being an antagonist you respect him simply for his way of life.

i personally feel that antagonist in naruto have much more depth than one piece.

the other aspect i the fight sequences.

i feel the fight sequences in one piece dont have too much variety. luffy's fights feel like just punches being thrown around and after a while i feel like just skipping to the end. its during the fight that i feel one piece lets itself down due to sticking to the shonen formula of perseverance triumphs all. this aspect looks good when sed sparingly but most fights in one piece have this and so at times its become really boring.
i would love to see some variety in the way in which fights are choreographed. even in the marineford arc while i loved the scale of the arc and the art i felt oda did not give justice to the fights. i was expecting a lot of team work but the end result felt rushed to me. so inspite of having loved the arc i thoughts the fights very lacking.

in naruto i love the uniqueness of the fights the trickery, the different jutsu's team work use of clones. every fight in naruto for me feels different and this keeps the manga fresh.

jutsu's inspite of sometimes being accussed of having reached dbz level, they are, i still feel very much grounded and have a nice balance. classic example being minato vs madara. considering that these two guys are bigwigs of narutoworld i am sure pepole expected loads of uber jutsus. what we got instead was simple tactics using just a couple of jutsus which nonetheless proved very effective. these are the kind of things that i love in naruto fights.

where one piece scores big time over naruto is imagination of the world and creatures. truly oda has a wicked imagination. also i feel oda has the slight upper hand as far as the dramatic sequences are concerned. with kishi it feels like sometimes he tends to over dramatize while i dont get that feeling in one piece (expect for the whole sabo thing <- that felt very cheesy to me).

 

[Newkerzy]

But interestingly, Kishi is very notorious with his drama. During the Kage Summit arc, he made us go "wth, Kishi?? is this some kinda joke!!??" but in the end, it actually made sense and it all worked out in the end.

The whole "pathetic Naruto" & Sasuke attacking the Kage Summit was actually needed to push those two to face each other as enemies. Of course, Naruto now considers Sasuke as an enemy to him and Konoha, but impressively, he is also trying to knock Sasuke back to his senses by using his "fists".