Discussion NNT versus thread

[sobreno]

Gowther vs. Cath.

Can he resist invasion?

He has the highest spirit stat in the series if I remember correctly.

Yeah, if it is first saga Gowther where he was just 3K and Cath has a spirit power of 5K.

Invasion will not work on him with his massive spirit power.

 

[Demonspeed]

The higher your Spirit stat the higher is your resistance to mental attacks, but it doesn't mean that you are immune to it and Invasion isn't only used for mental damages.

The power in the attacks vary as well.

 

[sobreno]

The higher your Spirit stat the higher is your resistance to mental attacks, but it doesn't mean that you are immune to it and Invasion isn't only used for mental damages.

The power in the attacks vary as well.

Cath should be able to resist Invasion from the first saga Gowther when he was just 3K.

Cath's spirit is the highest recorded in the entire series. No one, even high tier is close to 5K in their spirit stats.

We know that invasion mess with your mind, so the only way to fight against it ( if you get touched by it ) is by spirit power.

 

[Demonspeed]

Cath should be able to resist Invasion from the first saga Gowther when he was just 3K.

Cath's spirit is the highest recorded in the entire series. No one, even high tier is close to 5K in their spirit stats.

We know that invasion mess with your mind, so the only way to fight against it ( if you get touched by it ) is by spirit power.

There is not "set" PL to resist Invasion. That's what I am saying here. Blackout can be resisted by people with a Spirit stat higher than 400 but it doesn't mean that all of Invasion's attacks can be resisted as long as your Spirit is higher than 400. There is no way I can imagine Cath being immune to Invasion simply because his Spirit is 5000. Invasion doesn't only work on the mind, it is used to manipulate senses and the body as well.

 

[sobreno]

There is not "set" PL to resist Invasion. That's what I am saying here. Blackout can be resisted by people with a Spirit stat higher than 400 but it doesn't mean that all of Invasion's attacks can be resisted as long as your Spirit is higher than 400. There is no way I can imagine Cath being immune to Invasion simply because his Spirit is 5000. Invasion doesn't only work on the mind, it is used to manipulate senses and the body as well.

There is obviously a set since Gowther pointed out that spirit power higher than 400 can resist his blackout technique ( one of the technique of Invasion ).

Spirit power is indicated here, and the best character actually in the manga when it comes to spiritual power is Cath.
It works on the mind, more on how your brain perceives things via your senses, you can resist it if your spirit power is ridiculous.

 

[Demonspeed]

There is obviously a set since Gowther pointed out that spirit power higher than 400 can resist his blackout technique ( one of the technique of Invasion ).

Spirit power is indicated here, and the best character actually in the manga when it comes to spiritual power is Cath.
It works on the mind, more on how your brain perceives things via your senses, you can resist it if your spirit power is ridiculous.

What I mean is that the resistance to the technique depends on the power of the technique. And also its effects. The Blackout Gowther used back then worked on people with a Spirit stat below 400, but it wouldn't be the same for Blackout Arrow, Nightmare Teller, Rewrite Light, Jack, Breaker Off etc. Some techniques only work on the mind and spirit, some work on the body. He can take control of nerves itself while the target is still conscious.

 

[sobreno]

What I mean is that the resistance to the technique depends on the power of the technique. And also its effects. The Blackout Gowther used back then worked on people with a Spirit stat below 400, but it wouldn't be the same for Blackout Arrow, Nightmare Teller, Jack, Breaker Off etc. Some techniques only work on the mind and spirit, some work on the body. He can take control of nerves itself while the target is still conscious.

But we know the power of the technique due to the PL of Invasion which is lower than Cath's spirit stats. ( talking about the beginning of the manga Gowther here )

How do you know that it wouldn't be the same? You know Escanor's spirit stats? As far as I know, we don't.
He uses Invasion to take control of the brain of his opponent to makes him move as he wishes. If he is targeting the nerves, he is targetting the nervous system, therefore the brain who is the center of the system.

 

[Demonspeed]

But we know the power of the technique due to the PL of Invasion which is lower than Cath's spirit stats. ( talking about the beginning of the manga Gowther here )

How do you know that it wouldn't be the same? You know Escanor's spirit stats? As far as I know, we don't.
He uses Invasion to take control of the brain of his opponent to makes him move as he wishes. If he is targeting the nerves, he is targetting the nervous system, therefore the brain who is the center of the system.

Invasion doesn't have a PL, Gowther does. And Invasion is many things, there are different techniques with different effects.

I think Blackout Arrow should be more powerful since it's not AoE but let's ignore that. I don't know Escanor's Sprit stat, but are you saying that it was below 400? No way. We have seen a simple move like Rewrite Light work on people like Galan, who had 2000 in Spirit, so what does it say about that?

I know that it affects the nervous system. That's not my point. Moves like Nightmare Teller for example directly damage your mind and soul, it doesn't affect your nerves, which is something physical, the soul and the mind are not physical.

 

[sobreno]

Invasion doesn't have a PL, Gowther does. And Invasion is many things, there are different techniques with different effects.

I think Blackout Arrow should be more powerful since it's not AoE but let's ignore that. I don't know Escanor's Sprit stat, but are you saying that it was below 400? No way. We have seen a simple move like Rewrite Light work on people like Galan, who had 2000 in Spirit, so what does it say about that?

I know that it affects the nervous system. That's not my point. Moves like Nightmare Teller for example directly damage your mind and soul, it doesn't affect your nerves, which is something physical, the soul and the mind are not physical.

Lol what? Then what represent the magic stats of Gowther? he clearly has a PL.

He could be below 400, 500 or 1000, like I said, we don't know his spirit stats but you don't need to have a monstrous spirit stats to be powerful, your magic and physical stats are enough.

Sure it worked on Galand, but it is nowhere close to Cath who has 5000, even the best fighters in the verse don't surpass Cath ( canonical speaking ) in spirit power.

I am saying that he should be able to do better due to that fact.

Well any technique related to mind, soul, brain control, etc, your spirit power should be able to resist it with enough power of course. Spirit stats are here for a reason.

 

[Demonspeed]

Lol what? Then what represent the magic stats of Gowther? he clearly has a PL.

That's what I said? Invasion doesn't have a PL, it's just his Magic. Gowther is the one who has a PL. His techniques have different levels of power and effects.

He could be below 400, 500 or 1000, like I said, we don't know his spirit stats but you don't need to have a monstrous spirit stats to be powerful, your magic and physical stats are enough.

I know that, but there is no way for Escanor to have a Spirit level below 400 with a PL of 26K. That's way too low.

Sure it worked on Galand, but it is nowhere close to Cath who has 5000, even the best fighters in the verse don't surpass Cath ( canonical speaking ) in spirit power.

Exactly, and Rewrite Light=/= Blackout. The latter works on people with a Spirit below 400, the other isn't limited to this.

I am saying that he should be able to do better due to that fact.

I am not denying that. I am saying that Cath won't be immune to Invasion just because his Spirit is 5000. Even against Gowther without memories. Blackout wouldn't work, many other Invasion techniques would work.

 

[Raiyan]

King vs Gowther
Merlin vs Ban
Merlin, King, Diane, Gowther, Ban vs Sariel and Tarmiel
Misfits vs Albion
Zaratras, Hendrickson, Dreyfus, Misfits vs Edinburgh Vampires

*If it was pre-power up then I'll go with Gowther but if it was post power-up it will be a close match

*Merlin easily stomps BAN

*Sins win with mid diff..both AA are strong but sins got more combination attack than them

*Albion

*Holy knights

 

[sobreno]

That's what I said? Invasion doesn't have a PL, it's just his Magic. Gowther is the one who has a PL.



I know that, but there is no way for Escanor to have a Spirit level below 400 with a PL of 26K. That's way too low.




Exactly, and Rewrite Light=/= Blackout. The latter worked on people with a Spirit below 400, the other isn't limited to this.



I am not denying that. I am saying that Cath won't be immune to Invasion just because his Spirit is 5000. Even against Gowther without memories. Blackout wouldn't work, many other Invasion techniques would work.

You realize that PL in general broken broke down into 3 categories right? So what represent Gowther's magic stat? It is Invasion of course since that is the only magic power that he has lmao.

Like I said, it is a possibility since that we don't know, all his 26K can be into his physical and magic stats, we saw that in this manga, you can have ridiculous stats in your physical strength and magic power but your spirit stats never surpass the 4 digits, never as for now. He could be just 1000 lol.

Fair enough but it worked on a person with 2000 spirit stats, it is NLF to say that he will work on Cath seems his spirit stats is way higher than just 2000.

And I am sure that he could resist it, I don't say that he will be immune to it but if a character in this manga has the best chance to resist his Invasion, that character is Cath for the obvious reason that you know already.

 

[Demonspeed]

You realize that PL in general broken broke down into 3 categories right? So what represent Gowther's magic stat? It is Invasion of course since that is the only magic power that he has lmao.

His Magic stat was simply 1300. He uses it with Invasion but Invasion by itself is just a Magic. It's like saying that Creation, Snatch etc PLs. They don't. They are just Magic.

Like I said, it is a possibility since that we don't know, all his 26K can be into his physical and magic stats, we saw that in this manga, you can have ridiculous stats in your physical strength and magic power but your spirit stats never surpass the 4 digits, never as for now. He could be just 1000 lol.

Yes, 1000 I can see it, but not 400. We talked about this because you implied that Blackout Arrow was as powerful as Blackout. No way 26K Escanor would have been knocked out by Gowther's Blackout he used at Vaizel.

Fair enough but it worked on a person with 2000 spirit stats, it is NLF to say that he will work on Cath seems his spirit stats is way higher than just 2000.

And I am sure that he could resist it, I don't say that he will be immune to it but if a character in this manga has the best chance to resist his Invasion, that character is Cath for the obvious reason that you know already.

I agree, that he is better suited against it, I never said he was not. I simply said that he wouldn't be immune to it.

 

[sobreno]

His Magic stat was simply 1300. He uses it with Invasion but Invasion by itself is just a Magic. It's like saying that Creation, Snatch etc PLs. They don't. They are just Magic.



Yes, 1000 I can see it, but not 400. We talked about this because you implied that Blackout Arrow was as powerful as Blackout. No way 26K Escanor would have been knocked out by Gowther's Blackout he used at Vaizel.



I agree, that he is better suited against it, I never said he was not. I simply said that he wouldn't be immune to it.

1300 represent his Invasion, his only magic power, he has nothing else that you can describe as " magic " lol. Same things for creation, snatch.

I just said that as hypothetically, the truth is that he can be lower or higher than we think, I personally believe that he is lower. And yes, I think that Blackout Arrow is as powerful as blackout, the difference is just the range and number of the target, the mechanics remain the same and it is magic.

Fair enough for the last paragraph.

 

[Demonspeed]

1300 represent his Invasion, his only magic power, he has nothing else that you can describe as " magic " lol. Same things for creation, snatch.

I just said that as hypothetically, the truth is that he can be lower or higher than we think, I personally believe that he is lower. And yes, I think that Blackout Arrow is as powerful as blackout, the difference is just the range and number of the target, the mechanics remain the same and it is magic.

Fair enough for the last paragraph.

So, you are saying that 26K Escanor has a Spirit level below 400?

 

[Raiyan]

1300 represent his Invasion, his only magic power, he has nothing else that you can describe as " magic " lol. Same things for creation, snatch.

I just said that as hypothetically, the truth is that he can be lower or higher than we think, I personally believe that he is lower. And yes, I think that Blackout Arrow is as powerful as blackout, the difference is just the range and number of the target, the mechanics remain the same and it is magic.

Fair enough for the last paragraph.

1300 doesn't represent his Invasion it represents his magic capacity. Invasion is a magic ability you can't put it with number same goes for others.

For me I'll like to think Arrow is more powerful than Blackout. I know it is not stated but I think Arrow it more compressed to make it more affective on larger opponents rather than Blackout which covers everyone withing 3 miles radius.

 

[sobreno]

So, you are saying that 26K Escanor has a Spirit level below 400?

Yeah, it is a possibility, spirit power never had a huge impact in fight or power in general anyways.

For example, you have a dude with 5K in strength and 100 in spirit against a dude with 100 in strength and 5K in spirit, both 0 in magic.

The 5K in strength dude one shot the other dude here in combat, no matter how high his spirit is.

 

[Raiyan]

Yeah, it is a possibility, spirit power never had a huge impact in fight or power in general anyways.

For example, you have a dude with 5K in strength and 100 in spirit against a dude with 100 in strength and 5K in spirit, both 0 in magic.

The 5K in strength dude one shot the other dude here in combat, no matter how high his spirit is.

Spirit power isn't much of a threat as long as you don't fight with Gowther. Cause he's the only one capable defeating opponents stronger than him with who has lower spirit.

 

[sobreno]

1300 doesn't represent his Invasion it represents his magic capacity. Invasion is a magic ability you can't put it with number same goes for others.

For me I'll like to think Arrow is more powerful than Blackout. I know it is not stated but I think Arrow it more compressed to make it more affective on larger opponents rather than Blackout which covers everyone withing 3 miles radius.

Nope, Gowther only has Invasion as magic power, 1300 is the numerical strength of Invasion, the rest is the " hax " aka the ability of the magic itself.

Why tho? One move target a larger area and people, one move target a lesser area and a single person, both have the same mechanics and it is " hax " aka messing with the mind of the opponent.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 6, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 6, 2018 ---

Sipirt power isn't much of a threat as long as you don't fight with Gowther. Cause he's the only one capable defeating opponents stronger than him with who has lower spirit.

It is a threat lol, if your spirit power is higher than the rest, you have a chance to resist it, spirit power is here for a reason and it is a category to measure your mind's strength.

If you have resistance, it doesn't work too, for example, Escanor vs Gowther where he survived the most powerful technique of Invasion beside the forbidden spell, Nightmare teller.

 

[Raiyan]

Nope, Gowther only has Invasion as magic power, 1300 is the numerical strength of Invasion, the rest is the " hax " aka the ability of the magic itself.

Why tho? One move target a larger area and people, one move target a lesser area and a single person, both have the same mechanics and it is " hax " aka messing with the mind of the opponent.

When did I ever say Gowther have another magic and again saying invasion can't be measured same goes for others magic ability. You can measure their magic capacity but not their ability.

Could be but Its not proven anywhere so i won't say anything more.

It is a threat lol, if your spirit power is higher than the rest, you have a chance to resist it, spirit power is here for a reason and it is a category to measure your mind's strength.

If you have resistance, it doesn't work too, for example, Escanor vs Gowther where he survived the most powerful technique of Invasion beside the forbidden spell, Nightmare teller.

I said "as long as you don't fight Gowther" cause he's the only Person in the entire manga who has the power to affect someones spirit.