Done One Piece 553

[andyprue]

Hello, I'm having problems with one of One Piece chapter 553's dialogues

On page 13 [Raw page here], Mihawk said:

推し量るだけだ。。。近く見える
[I'm only guessing...Even though it seems close]

あの男と我々の本当の距離を。。。
[Let's see the real distance between us and that man...]

(I'm translating into another language so it might not sound that good in English, please pardon me >_<")

Context: They're in the middle of the battle with Whitebeard pirates, and Mihawk after saying that made an attack towards Whitebeard himself.


I checked with two current available translations, and one said:
"I'm just going to measure... so I can see it with my own eyes / the difference in actual strength between that man and I..."
and the other was
"I'm just guessing but... He looks too close. / With his true attack range and ours..."


I wonder what's the more correct meaning? Especially the "距離" part, I think that refers to the literal distance (in metres ) between the Shichibukai and WB, while one of the above translations means the distance in strength, and the other the attack range... (Although I think the former sounds better)


Thanks in advance :"D.

 

[Meriken]

Technically, neither of them are wrong, but the first translation (difference in strength) makes far more sense in terms of the context. The second one is a purely literal translation, and is poorly worded. 距離 actually takes on the meaning of a non-physical "gap" (ex. differing opinions) quite often.

 

[andyprue]

I'd have seen it that way too if it weren't for the "我々", but now thinking about it, I guess it shouldn't matter much. Thanks a lot :"}.

 

[zidane]

Check this out on the matter:
http://apforums.net/showpost.php?p=1225524&postcount=12

 

[Meriken]

Check this out on the matter:
http://apforums.net/showpost.php?p=1225524&postcount=12

I took a peek and this was being hotly contested on the 2ch threads as well. So even the Japanese readers are a little confused. ^^;

I don't find that explanation particularly convincing, but again, it's not wrong. It's just a matter of whether you recognize the idiom, or take it purely as a literal statement.

 

[Nagumo]

Can you specify what idiom exactly you're talking about? I'm not aware of any idiomatic use of any phrase in that panel. I understand that people want to read that meaning into it, but

"I'm just going to measure... so I can see it with my own eyes / the difference in actual strength between that man and I..."

doesn't work since the panel in question doesn't include the words measure, see, my, own, eyes, strength, or the trailing I. Granted, there's a lot of room for interpretation, but this particular interpretation is at least 50% guesswork.

At the very least, even leaning towards this interpretation, I believe the translation should flow something like "It's just a hunch, but... It seems small... [Subject] [Verb] the true distance between that man and us." The を particle is critical in clarifying that the second sentence is not a direct referent of the first, in the sense that it's not clarifying the missing object/noun that is '近く見える'.

i.e.

近く見える... Aは... and
近く見える... Aを... are completely different.

The first obviously translates conceptually to something like "A looks close", whereas the second translates conceptually to something more akin to "It looks close... A..." where the trailing "A..." is the fragment of the beginning of a new sentence.

I could be wrong, but I've yet to hear a convincing explanation why.

 

[Meriken]

http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?enc=...me=0na&stype=0&pagenum=1&index=05634504737900

１ 二つの場所や物事の間の隔たり。「前の車との―を縮める」「考え方に―がありすぎる」

距離 isn't only about physical distance, though that is the more frequent usage. It also means the difference between any two things (物事). It's not so much an idiom as part of the definition itself. Here's an example:

http://ameblo.jp/kondotakami/entry-10188986371.html

Some random Japanese CEO's blog I found. The title is 実力の距離を測ろう. Another example from a newspaper article: (志望校と自分の実力の距離を知る, http://www.toshin.com/news/obog/0809.php). And no, for the second example, the article is not talking about figuring out how far away you live from the college you want to go to.

doesn't work since the panel in question doesn't include the words measure, see, my, own, eyes, strength, or the trailing I. Granted, there's a lot of room for interpretation, but this particular interpretation is at least 50% guesswork.

True, that part is pretty unnecessary.

At the very least, even leaning towards this interpretation, I believe the translation should flow something like "It's just a hunch, but... It seems small... [Subject] [Verb] the true distance between that man and us." The を particle is critical in clarifying that the second sentence is not a direct referent of the first, in the sense that it's not clarifying the missing object/noun that is '近く見える'.

I think this one is superior to both of the other TLs. It doesn't stray from the original, flows decently, and doesn't specify exactly what the distance is. I would've chosen this one if it was up on the first post.

I could be wrong, but I've yet to hear a convincing explanation why.

Only Oda knows

 

[Nagumo]

距離 isn't only about physical distance, though that is the more frequent usage. It also means the difference between any two things (物事). It's not so much an idiom as part of the definition itself. Here's an example:

I wasn't making a case for it being only usable in that sense; it's not even idiomatic, it's a part of the definition in the same sense that we can use 'far' or 'near' in English: e.g. 'I'm far from ready'.

I think this one is superior to both of the other TLs. It doesn't stray from the original, flows decently, and doesn't specify exactly what the distance is. I would've chosen this one if it was up on the first post.

Problem is, without the subject and verb (which you have to guess out of thin air, even given the context) it doesn't translate well into English.　I mean, I could insert '確かめましょう' after the ’を’ arbitrarily, but it's just that - arbitrary. It's not as though you can put [subject] [verb] in the bubble.

 

[Meriken]

I wasn't making a case for it being only usable in that sense; it's not even idiomatic, it's a part of the definition in the same sense that we can use 'far' or 'near' in English: e.g. 'I'm far from ready'.

But you can see how there's a clear implication that it's being used in that context for the lines in question.

Problem is, without the subject and verb (which you have to guess out of thin air, even given the context) it doesn't translate well into English.　I mean, I could insert '確かめましょう' after the ’を’ arbitrarily, but it's just that - arbitrary. It's not as though you can put [subject] [verb] in the bubble.

Yeah, but... "attack range" is pretty arbitrary too. I would rather go with the broader view than specify. And I don't think you absolutely need a subject and verb for every single thing that's said in a manga.

I'm not telling you to change your TL or anything. I just want people to see that this part is up for debate.

 

[Nagumo]

But you can see how there's a clear implication that it's being used in that context for the lines in question.

I think that's up for debate (in fact, it's the crux of the whole question.) Personally, for the reasons I stated in that apforums thread, I think the literal meaning makes more sense, but just barely. That 本当 does seem to lean that way, but I'm still sort of iffy.

Yeah, but... "attack range" is pretty arbitrary too. I would rather go with the broader view than specify. And I don't think you absolutely need a subject and verb for every single thing that's said in a manga.

It is sort of arbitrary, but the following page has a ranged attack, so it seemed to fit better. For the subject/verb issue, I agree, but because of the reverse order of sentence construction in English vs. Japanese, you can't trail off a sentence without a subject and verb, e.g.

'[...] 距離を...' doesn't make any sense if you translate it
'distance...'

 

[haewoon]

First of all, I'm sorry for my English,
but I hope that my post is understandable.

The correct japanese sentence is like this.
1. 推し量るだけだ。。。
2. 近く見えるあの男と我々の本当の距離を。。。

Therefore,
He just estimates that the difference between capacity (power, ability, or capability...), and its difference seems to be small.

I think, in this situation, 距離 is used for the same meaning of 力量 or 腕.

 

[Nagumo]

The correct japanese sentence is like this.
1. 推し量るだけだ。。。
2. 近く見えるあの男と我々の本当の距離を。。。

Therefore,
He just estimates that the difference between capacity (power, ability, or capability...), and its difference seems to be small.

I think, in this situation, 距離 is used for the same meaning of 力量 or 腕.

距離 is can't be used in the pronoun sense you use it in... it's a distance or a range, whether figurative or literal. You can say it's a distance between their relative 力量 but it cannot stand in its place, 力量 has to be inferred.

Also the phrasing you use is even more confusing as chunked that way '近く見える' seems like it's modifying 'あの男' which is not what the text seems to imply. Neither does it strictly imply that it modifies '本当の距離'

The point is that we just don't know for sure - several readings are all valid.

Also, 환영한다!

 

[Meriken]

I think that's up for debate (in fact, it's the crux of the whole question.) Personally, for the reasons I stated in that apforums thread, I think the literal meaning makes more sense, but just barely. That 本当 does seem to lean that way, but I'm still sort of iffy.

Okay, maybe I shouldn't have said 'clear implication," it's more like a clear possibility.

It is sort of arbitrary, but the following page has a ranged attack, so it seemed to fit better. For the subject/verb issue, I agree, but because of the reverse order of sentence construction in English vs. Japanese, you can't trail off a sentence without a subject and verb

Thinking about it as haewoon wrote above (近く見えるあの男と我々の本当の距離を) opens up some new possibilities in terms of the sentence structure. But as long as you can back up your choices (and you have), there's no problems. That's all from me.

 

[haewoon]

Thank you for welcoming.

I think that 近く見えるあの男と我々の本当の距離を。。。 is more understandable...
but it was thought of a person who have lived in a cultural area of Kanji.

Thus, I'm going to separate that sentence.

In this sentence, "近く見える" decorates the "距離",
and "あの男と我々の本当の" also decorate the "距離".

Similarly, "あの男と我々の" decorates "距離",
and "本当の" also does "距離".

The last character "を" of "距離を" indicates that sentence "近く見えるあの男と我々の本当の距離を" is an object of "推し量る".

That is,
the original sentence is understood like following.

'He estimate the gap (or the difference)' 推し量るだけだ... 距離を
'The difference between capabilities of that man and us' あの男と我々の距離
'The difference seems to be small' 近く見える距離

In this situation, '本当の' is used for the emphasis for measuring the 'difference', because the difference seems to be small.

Thank you for reading my post. m(__)m

 

[Nagumo]

So are you saying that, clearly stated, the complete text would otherwise read something like:

'近く見えるあの男と我々の本当の距離を推し量る'?

I didn't even realize that 推し量る was transitive, but looking at the reference, it appears to be, so this makes some sense... but doesn't the verb not encompass the 'estimate' or 'measure' meaning? I don't really see how you can 'conjecture' a 'gap'. You can conjecture that it's close, i.e. that 推し量る refers to 近く見える, but once you use 近く見える as a decorator of あの男と我々の本当の距離, that whole phrase becomes the new object, and I don't think 推し量る can be used in that sense, can it?

나도 한국분이니 'Oriental' 어법을 이해하긴하지만, that phrasing doesn't seem to work, at least to me.

 

[haewoon]

Thank you for comment.

推し量る has the meaning of 推測する, 推し測る, 考える, or 察する.

If the man want to measure (or estimate) the 'closeness', Japanese sentence was written like following:

推し量るだけだ。。。 あの男と我々の本当の距離の近さを。


p.s. 영어 지적해주셔서 감사합니다. What is a correct phrase of mine? ;

 

[Unproductive]

Just my take on this topic. I'm not that experienced so take it for what it is.

This is the sentence that was broken up
「あの男と我々の本当の距離を、」 「推し量るだけだ。。。」
This is the person's guess
「近く見える。」

For 距離, when it's used as two people's gap of the form:
こちらとそちらの距離
僕たちの距離
it usually comes out to 心理的な隔たり, 能力の差, or 地位の差.

When it's used as the distance between two people of the form:
人と人との距離
It can be the physical distance between the two if the two people are treated as inanimate objects like 点Aから点Bまでの距離. Physical distance when referring to people is not the standard meaning.

 

[njt]

The way I read it as is:

I want to see(asses/measure) how far apart we really do stand against the man that appears near to us.

And i read it as meaning he wants to judge his level, not really the actual distance.

 

[WinterLion]

Just to put my 2 cents in... 距離 can refer to the literal (physical) distance or it can also refer to a figurative distance. I this case it's definitely referring to the figurative distance in power between the parties. There's an emphasis that was placed on the raw on 本当 and 距離 and in cases where an emphasis is placed like that, the meanings are usually inferred rather than literal.

Now looking at the whole section:
推し量るだけだ。。。 近く見える
Only going to measure... Seems close
*Notes: Some of the meanings for 推し量る is 類似の事実を当てはめてみて、見当をつける。推測する。推量する。The bolded one of this meaning is: Finding the truth between something that appears to be the same (close) and judging/measuring it. And the part that follows of 近く見える seems close, would support that this is indeed what the 推し量る is referring to.
あの男と我々の本当の距離を。。。
The true distance between us and that man...

Those are the translations broken up. But when you look at this the を ending it means that the he is going to be doing something with "the true distance between us and that man". So as what haewoon said, this should be referring back to the 推し量るだけだ.

So in all I would translate this to:
Only going to measure... The seemingly close
true distance of power between us and the man...

And my apologies if I'm not explaining it in English very well. Never having had to learn Japanese as a foreign language, I'm not good with explaining the parts of a sentence in English.

 

[njt]

Well the reason I had mine as "I want to see how far apart we really do stand against the man that appears near to us."

I wanted it to stay as ambiguous as the original one is

I want to see(asses/measure) how far apart we really do stand against the man that appears near(in power/skill) to us.

But yeah, if you want to clear that up, WL's works really well