One Piece Mega Convo Thread, the 1st Chapter

[SpaceDBadger]

Re: One Piece 518 Discussion/519 Predictions

Ono i wasn't attempting to prove anything, I interpreted the way that ray said those lines in a different way to you....I think this argument won't be settled until the anime reaches that point (which will be soon), ad we can analyze how Ray says it and what his actual state is....

BUT if you insist on having a point, Ray had a full discussion with Kuma WHILE fighting Kizaru, come on that's fairly impressive lol

 

[Turtle Pirate]

Re: One Piece 518 Discussion/519 Predictions

ok im am now positive that kizaru was not winning... i just reread it and Kizaru says "you are holding off a marine admiral and you still want more?" that's a paraphrase. I can see now that ray wasnt winning though, but he defenitley wasnt losing since he hadnt taken a hit yet and kizaru has scratch. Also, it doesn't matter anymore, their fight is over now cause ray still has to paint the boat or whatever and kizaru has to take care of Kuma.

 

[Shurou]

Re: One Piece 518 Discussion/519 Predictions

Ray was panting ,talking about how he had his hands full, had more damage lines, was on the defensive, Kizaru ,on the other hand, was making jokes. Which demeanor sounds more Victor like to you?

Well, if you're talking about panting... Kizaru was panting, too... Except in his case, it was drawn, not written in the dialogue like Ray...

And by damage lines... are you referring to Ray's overcoat? Because otherwise, neither Kizaru nor Ray has a scratch on him... Wait, Kizaru's got one cut on his cheek, but that's because he wasn't paying attention to Ray in the beginning.

And I'm not sure where Kizaru's making a joke... If you're referring to his response to Ray's complaint about his age, I'd have to disagree that it's a joke... It was more of an exasperated cry of outrage that Ray was thinking of taking care of Kizaru and then going to help the Strawhats. He says, translated (with a bit of interpreting to make things smooth), "Wanting more on top of stopping a "Marine Admiral", then I've no room for dignity. Cut that crap out." Why? Well, like Kizaru said, Ray was holding off a MARINE ADMIRAL, and Kizaru says you can't (and shouldn't) ask for much more than that, especially from a long-retired swordsman/pirate veteran, who talks to Kizaru as if he were a kid (or a young man at best) and obviously thinks he should be whooping the Admiral's ass instead of settling for holding him at bay. (Side note: On the other hand, Kizaru addresses Ray with a certain extent of honorific form (if you were reading the translations/scanslations, probably wouldn't come across as clearly), indicating that Kizaru definitely does not take Ray lightly and acknowledges Ray's status and strength.) OK, summary, I don't believe that Kizaru was at any point making a joke.. if he sounded like it, that's most likely just his personality/habit of talking.

(Since you ask for feedback on four points, I guess I'll make this one, too... Grr, typing way too much -___-) As far as Ray being on the defensive is concerned, out of the few cuts we see of the two fighting, Ray is on the defensive in 3, Kizaru is rudely and unexpectedly slapped in the face (well, slashed) in one, so I guess Kizaru is ahead in points there. But that's not really enough for me to believe Kizaru was necessarily winning the fight... Ray may have had his hands rather full, but it's not like his mind was completely focused as well...

OK, I'm gonna go watch a play now, so here's to waiting for another long week for the next chapter of OP!!

 

[Shurou]

Re: One Piece 518 Discussion/519 Predictions

Ono i wasn't attempting to prove anything, I interpreted the way that ray said those lines in a different way to you....I think this argument won't be settled until the anime reaches that point (which will be soon), ad we can analyze how Ray says it and what his actual state is....

BUT if you insist on having a point, Ray had a full discussion with Kuma WHILE fighting Kizaru, come on that's fairly impressive lol

Eh... Never watched the anime, so I wouldn't know how true to the manga it is, but I'd consider the manga the ultimate authority on all content, explicit or implicit.

Oh, and good point on the conversation thing. I also love how both Kuma and Ray totally ignore Kizaru during their conversation. :P

 

[SpaceDBadger]

Re: One Piece 518 Discussion/519 Predictions

Hmmm I like the anime, only for the fight scenes, personally, plot and character development from manga, epic battle scenes from the anime....But the anime does help occasionally in giving extra depth to characters in terms of phrasing and expression (which obviously text can't always display)

New theory....Perhaps Kuma is going to ge executed for his actions along with Ace, and therefore the straw hats will end up saving him along with Ace, as repayment for him saving them a SA

 

[Onomatopoeia]

Re: One Piece 518 Discussion/519 Predictions

Well, if you're talking about panting... Kizaru was panting, too... Except in his case, it was drawn, not written in the dialogue like Ray...

And by damage lines... are you referring to Ray's overcoat? Because otherwise, neither Kizaru nor Ray has a scratch on him... Wait, Kizaru's got one cut on his cheek, but that's because he wasn't paying attention to Ray in the beginning.

And I'm not sure where Kizaru's making a joke... If you're referring to his response to Ray's complaint about his age, I'd have to disagree that it's a joke... It was more of an exasperated cry of outrage that Ray was thinking of taking care of Kizaru and then going to help the Strawhats. He says, translated (with a bit of interpreting to make things smooth), "Wanting more on top of stopping a "Marine Admiral", then I've no room for dignity. Cut that crap out." Why? Well, like Kizaru said, Ray was holding off a MARINE ADMIRAL, and Kizaru says you can't (and shouldn't) ask for much more than that, especially from a long-retired swordsman/pirate veteran, who talks to Kizaru as if he were a kid (or a young man at best) and obviously thinks he should be whooping the Admiral's ass instead of settling for holding him at bay. (Side note: On the other hand, Kizaru addresses Ray with a certain extent of honorific form (if you were reading the translations/scanslations, probably wouldn't come across as clearly), indicating that Kizaru definitely does not take Ray lightly and acknowledges Ray's status and strength.) OK, summary, I don't believe that Kizaru was at any point making a joke.. if he sounded like it, that's most likely just his personality/habit of talking.

(Since you ask for feedback on four points, I guess I'll make this one, too... Grr, typing way too much -___-) As far as Ray being on the defensive is concerned, out of the few cuts we see of the two fighting, Ray is on the defensive in 3, Kizaru is rudely and unexpectedly slapped in the face (well, slashed) in one, so I guess Kizaru is ahead in points there. But that's not really enough for me to believe Kizaru was necessarily winning the fight... Ray may have had his hands rather full, but it's not like his mind was completely focused as well...

OK, I'm gonna go watch a play now, so here's to waiting for another long week for the next chapter of OP!!

1. That panting scene I have my doubts on, they're was literally one exchange between the two. I don't see how Kizaru could be panting after one exchange it doesn't make sense especially since later in the chapter he shows no shortness of breath or doubtfullness and has Ray on the defensive. This was probablly just another case of underestimation if anything which isn't something that should be used against Kizaru.

2. I should probablly explain this but Damage Line's are usually seen if someone is getting hurt in some way but they only appear in the characters hair/clothe. Seriously go through the chapters and look specificlly at people's clothe and if they're hurt/tired for some reason they're clothe will have some damage lines. Don't ask me why but it's true. Just going with a random example right here. Ussop's clothe have lots of scratches on them. Then compare to Ray vs Kizaru. Ray is the only one with said Damage Lines.

3. Perhaps a joke would be the wrong word but he was obviously lax/unworried. It sounded like he was saying "Another person?? Your making me feel like a joke" sure it might not be what I exactly said but I feel like Kizaru is obviously worried about his dignity instead of what he's got on his plate, it also seems that he's saying it jokingly/disbelief. Someone who would be tied would most certainly be more worried about the fight instead of his own dignity.

 

[SpaceDBadger]

Re: One Piece 518 Discussion/519 Predictions

I take your points Ono, especially with the damage lines point, but it's a bit odd, because they appear on his overcoat and not on his actual shit, which is sort of impossible LOL I always thought they were just dirt marks LOL but I'll take your word for it.....

I would still argue though we really didn't see much from either of them and of course that fight wasn't going to just end, what will happen to Ray? Maybe like Ace, (and my prediction of Kuma) he will be sent for execution, then we would know for certain that Ray lost....BUT if Ray escaped you have to give it to Ray and say he's at least as strong perhaps stronger than the admiral....but unless Kishi explains what happened after the SH's left we may never know

 

[Shurou]

Re: One Piece 518 Discussion/519 Predictions

1. That panting scene I have my doubts on, they're was literally one exchange between the two. I don't see how Kizaru could be panting after one exchange it doesn't make sense especially since later in the chapter he shows no shortness of breath or doubtfullness and has Ray on the defensive. This was probablly just another case of underestimation if anything which isn't something that should be used against Kizaru.

Look again in chapter 512 pg 13. One cut, but that's a lot of sword exchanges, which implies that they didn't just cross swords a couple of times and then sit around until the next chapter. And Kizaru is panting in 513. Just wanted to point out that Ray isn't the only one with his hands full. Otherwise, Kizaru WOULD have gotten past Ray.

2. I should probablly explain this but Damage Line's are usually seen if someone is getting hurt in some way but they only appear in the characters hair/clothe. Seriously go through the chapters and look specificlly at people's clothe and if they're hurt/tired for some reason they're clothe will have some damage lines. Don't ask me why but it's true. Just going with a random example right here. Ussop's clothe have lots of scratches on them. Then compare to Ray vs Kizaru. Ray is the only one with said Damage Lines.

I am well aware of and familiar with the use of damage lines... and I disputed your point on that specifically because it was only on his overcoat. If someone is tired/damaged, you WILL see it on their clothes AND (in 99% of the times I've seen) body. This is the case for not just Ussop, but all of the Straw Hats. "Damage" lines on the outermost garment like coats and capes seldom, if ever, indicate current damage on the character.

3. Perhaps a joke would be the wrong word but he was obviously lax/unworried. It sounded like he was saying "Another person?? Your making me feel like a joke" sure it might not be what I exactly said but I feel like Kizaru is obviously worried about his dignity instead of what he's got on his plate, it also seems that he's saying it jokingly/disbelief. Someone who would be tied would most certainly be more worried about the fight instead of his own dignity.

This is probably the area with most room for interpretation. For me, it came across as I've explained previously, based on the Japanese text and my knowledge of Japanese culture. And based on my perception of Kizaru's character, I can completely see him make jokes even if he were fighting to the death with someone. As did many other manga boss-level characters for years and years (and still do). And I like my boss characters bad-ass like that, so that's the way I'm gonna keep enjoying Kizaru's character ^^

 

[BlackHair]

Re: One Piece 518 Discussion/519 Predictions

Though I disagreed on previous posts, I now agree with Ono, since I just noticed sth which I didn't earlier. Tbh its embarrassing to overread sth like that

Anyway while the fight was evenly matched, it seems like Kiz was winning. So basically if that fight would have continued without any interpretation or one of them running away, I believe Kiz would have won the fight.

I personally wouldn't take that panting of Ray seriously. 'Cause in later panels especially while talking with Kuma, there are no signs of that.

On this page we see him for the last time in full body. His coat is clearly damaged, while Kiz's is clean. That indicates that Ray was winning.

I am well aware of and familiar with the use of damage lines... and I disputed your point on that specifically because it was only on his overcoat. If someone is tired/damaged, you WILL see it on their clothes AND (in 99% of the times I've seen) body. This is the case for not just Ussop, but all of the Straw Hats. "Damage" lines on the outermost garment like coats and capes seldom, if ever, indicate current damage on the character.

I rly would like to know ur references for ur interpretation.

As long Ray wears that coat, it is part of his body. So basically if its get dirty it means that Ray is damaged/weakened. To make it clear, Kiz's coat is clean while only Ray's is dirty, even though both were clean at the beginning of the fight. (Here u can see it clearly, right before the swordplay)

So if not the dirt on Ray's coat shoud emphasize his losing, then why is only his coat dirty while Kiz's is clean?

 

[Onomatopoeia]

Re: One Piece 518 Discussion/519 Predictions

Look again in chapter 512 pg 13. One cut, but that's a lot of sword exchanges, which implies that they didn't just cross swords a couple of times and then sit around until the next chapter. And Kizaru is panting in 513. Just wanted to point out that Ray isn't the only one with his hands full. Otherwise, Kizaru WOULD have gotten past Ray.



I am well aware of and familiar with the use of damage lines... and I disputed your point on that specifically because it was only on his overcoat. If someone is tired/damaged, you WILL see it on their clothes AND (in 99% of the times I've seen) body. This is the case for not just Ussop, but all of the Straw Hats. "Damage" lines on the outermost garment like coats and capes seldom, if ever, indicate current damage on the character.



This is probably the area with most room for interpretation. For me, it came across as I've explained previously, based on the Japanese text and my knowledge of Japanese culture. And based on my perception of Kizaru's character, I can completely see him make jokes even if he were fighting to the death with someone. As did many other manga boss-level characters for years and years (and still do). And I like my boss characters bad-ass like that, so that's the way I'm gonna keep enjoying Kizaru's character ^^

1. I'm not exactly sure where your going with this one, maybe were not understanding each other but this is what I'm talking about. It's multiple pages before panel 13 and it is the only place that Kizaru "pants". It's obvious that theirs only one exchange between the two. So I don't understand why he would be tired in the first exchange but 50 exchanges later be perfectly fine, the evidence contradicts what's been said. Thats why I think it has more to do with Kizaru's personality then actual tiredness. And of course Kizaru has his hands full, I never said that Kizaru and Ray were that far apart in strength.

2. I'd reply to this but Blackhair did it for me.

3. Kizaru is pretty badass, that is true.

 

[RichardMNixon]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

I don't think Kizaru's cloak ever gets dirtier than it starts as here: http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/512/07/

Also note that Usopp himself has as many scratches as his clothes do while Ray has none.

As for the time spent on the defensive, I think it may be hard to judge; Kizaru is twice Ray's height, so he's naturally going to have more downswings. Just because Ray is pushing up from below doesn't mean he's defending.

I think they were pretty evenly matched.

 

[SpaceDBadger]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

I reckon that's the general consensus

I'm curious as to whether all the SH's will make it back to the Thousand Sunny in three days....the way this arc is shaping I can't believe it will...... I would say the only way it could happen would be by Kuma portin people back, except he won't because he said that he would never see any ofthem again.....

 

[Shurou]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

Which reminds me... didn't the vice-admiral who managed to escape being er... "stoned" say that he'd be waiting for Boa Hancock's answer to WG's summons for a couple of more days? Unlikely, but could that possibly play into Luffy getting back earlier than we expect?

 

[Onomatopoeia]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

I don't think Kizaru's cloak ever gets dirtier than it starts as here: http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/512/07/

Also note that Usopp himself has as many scratches as his clothes do while Ray has none.

As for the time spent on the defensive, I think it may be hard to judge; Kizaru is twice Ray's height, so he's naturally going to have more downswings. Just because Ray is pushing up from below doesn't mean he's defending.

I think they were pretty evenly matched.

Yes because Kizaru didn't get hurt/tired, like ever.

Yes Ussop has many scratches on body as does his cloth but thats exactly what I was getting at. If someone is damaged or tired then they get those scratches, Ussop being hurt only further reinforces my point about Ray. Those damage lines were on both of them, we know Ussop was defintely hurt and tired which means that Ray was tired at least. While Kizaru on the other hand was probablly doing much better. If it really bothers you I could get you some more examples.

As for the other point Kizaru usually had Ray's sword closer to his own body so that would make Kizaru the one on the offensive.

 

[SpaceDBadger]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

What made you dislike Ray so much ono, I thought he was a champ but I guess we all have our opinion of who are our favorite character lol, well I'm going to leave it to the circumstances we next see Ray and Kizaru in.....If Ray comes along missing an arm saying "a result of my battle with Kizaru" we'll know who was the stronger man, and vice versa......Can't wait until we go back to SA (if ever) or just get back to the Red Line.....

 

[haruka9]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

As much as I want to see how Kizaru and Rayleigh fight, I doubt that a detailed match will be shown. And if Oda brings us back to Shabondy Island, we might see the outcome of the chaos. And if there is really going a be a winner between the two, I do hope it's Rayleigh of course. But I won't deny that it will be a fresh feat if Rayleigh ends up losing. Besides, he expressed back then that he couldn't fight like the way he used to

 

[bittman]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

I personally doubt Rayleigh would have stuck around to fight Kizaru, and though you can counter by saying "Well Kizaru isn't going to let Rayleigh leave", running away is always easier than fighting till death (unless you're running from Kuma, which the Strawhat's just proved as highly difficult).

 

[SpaceDBadger]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

Running from a captain is probably just as hard running from Kizaru, but I reckon that he'll have used some crazy escape technique...

 

[Onomatopoeia]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

More then likely Ray escaped using some genius trick. It's not really all that surprising, I mean the only reason he was their was to help the SHs.

 

[haruka9]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

if the thought of Rayleigh running away from Kizaru is considered, then it only means that he's just buying some time for the Strawhats to find a safe place where they can't be found by the Marines. His help also includes his contribtuion to the entire fight between Marines and Strawhats, meaning if he's there, the Strawhats have to fight less enemies. I guess Rayleigh can still manage to escape from Kizaru. After all, he can block a speedy logia user with his sword so finding an opening and escaping can be easy for him as well