One Piece Mega Convo Thread, the 2nd Chapter

[k-dom]

It doesn't really contradict my theory. Ace looks a lot younger in that flashback.
I can't say I know much about logia learning curve, but I really doubt that they master their power and the use of it the moment they eat the fruit.

It does a little since your theory is that Logia have to train to be in their element, whereas I think the flashback said that they have to train not to be in their element

 

[Razh]

It does a little since your theory is that Logia have to train to be in their element whereas I think the flashback said that they have to train not to be in their element

No, I claim that the flashback says that Ace wasn't fully in control of his power.
Look, I discussed this for like dozen times, including once in the old convo, and it's just a pain.

Ace tackled Smoker, who tackled Ace, and they both flew through the wall. How's that?
Yes, a lot of times, we see logias letting bullets through them. I claim that they are prepared and in expectance of the attack they become the element even though they look normal on the outside. Such as ace letting bullets through him on Banaro. On the opposite side we have the case when Luffy blasted both Ace and Smoker away.
What is the difference between the 2? In 1. case, Ace was looking straight into his enemies, and probably saw the attack coming. In the 2. case, Ace was caught totally by surprise and subsequently, flew through the wall.
There is no logia mechanism that activates on it's own when the bullets are coming. That would mean that df ability has a mind of it's own, and we know that's not the case.

 

[k-dom]

No, I claim that the flashback says that Ace wasn't fully in control of his power..

you said in your first post that logia have to pay attention to be in their element mode, that they are not constantly in their element mode and that the logia power don't work on their own. That's what I call "Logia have to train to be in their element" or I don't understand anything. I know about the old discussion but this was before Oars flashback where it is clearly said that Ace has problem to make the hat because of his logia power.
Why would it be a problem of Ace controlling his logia power when, according to you, he just have not to control them and stay in a human mode to make the hat.
I know about Luffy hitting smoker and Ace but I'm really suspicious about this part since it happen only one time in all the manga and I'm not sure it shall be taken as the rule for Logia mechanism.

 

[NoLimit89]

Or maybe, when you first get a logia, you can't control when you're in element and when you're not. It makes sense doesn't it? You turn into (let's say) fire when you don't want to and then you can't turn into fire when you want to.

 

[Razh]

Or maybe, when you first get a logia, you can't control when you're in element and when you're not. It makes sense doesn't it? You turn into (let's say) fire when you don't want to and then you can't turn into fire when you want to.

That's what I had in mind.

I know about Luffy hitting smoker and Ace but I'm really suspicious about this part since it happen only one time in all the manga and I'm not sure it shall be taken as the rule for Logia mechanism.

It still happened in manga and explaining it with comic relief is plain silly.
Also, there was that time when Luffy kicked Aokiji in the air. Also, the sea didn't start freezing the moment Aokiji touched it. He declared "Ice Age" first.
There are really tons of examples, all of which I probably mentioned before.

Also, Oda himself stated in SBS that logias turn their bodies into an element. Gave example of how Ace does his fire fist attack (the one that destroyed Baroque ships). Ace turns his fist into a fire, then makes the fire bigger. He wouldn't be able to do it without training.

Next time, I'm just gonna go find those posts of mine from before and copy...
I think we've seen clearly how logias work. They would suck if the users couldn't control them, including choose not to use them.

 

[Wowzers]

I've been thinking about an un-answered question about Kuma... (What!! Another one??)
Whatever happened to PX-1?

Kuma made PX-1 vanish like the Strawhats, but where did he make it go?
1. Sent it to Dr Vegapunk's lab.
2. Sent it to a safe location so it will find it's way back.
3. Sent it to a dangerous location so it will be destroyed.
4. Sent it to a location where it can be reprogrammed.
5. Sent it to a location where it can be disassembled for spare parts.
6. Sent it to a Revolutionary Army base where it will be analyzed.
7. Simply dropped it in the ocean.

Personally, I think that if Kuma is a spy for the Revolution it will be 4,5 or 6. PX-1 might be running around doing jobs for Kuma right now while Kuma keeps showing his face at the war... no one the wiser.

 

[MeramEranomi]

I've been thinking about an un-answered question about Kuma... (What!! Another one??)
Whatever happened to PX-1?

Kuma made PX-1 vanish like the Strawhats, but where did he make it go?
1. Sent it to Dr Vegapunk's lab.
2. Sent it to a safe location so it will find it's way back.
3. Sent it to a dangerous location so it will be destroyed.
4. Sent it to a location where it can be reprogrammed.
5. Sent it to a location where it can be disassembled for spare parts.
6. Sent it to a Revolutionary Army base where it will be analyzed.
7. Simply dropped it in the ocean.

Personally, I think that if Kuma is a spy for the Revolution it will be 4,5 or 6. PX-1 might be running around doing jobs for Kuma right now while Kuma keeps showing his face at the war... no one the wiser.

i root out 1,2,3. it's too much trouble for him. he doesn't give a crap about his clone (not that much anyway). 5 is unlikely. 4 is the same as 6. so it's really 6 or 7. personally i think he just dropped it. b/c if he wants to let revolutionaries check it that means he planned the whole thing for strawhats to get in trouble (unlikely).

 

[elitefox]

can't find it at moment but I recall/read water 7 arc was half way for One piece manga...i'll try dig it up.

@raijin kuma did have his bible HERE, granted it can't be seen now but to show his hands with 'paw paw' LAST PANEL and fire laser from his mouth like he has before its the real deal shishubukai for me not a pacifista.

its a book, and with his big body, he can hide it anywhere, since he is a cyborg then likely he hid it in his stomach like franky

 

[k-dom]

That's what I had in mind.

This episode occurs after Ace visited Wano country which is in the new world... Are you telling me that Ace only starts to master his devil fruit at that time ?

It still happened in manga and explaining it with comic relief is plain silly.

When the manga is in comic mode, it's dangourous to take thing seriously, otherwise, Nami has already mastered haki...

Spoiler

I think we've seen clearly how logias work. They would suck if the users couldn't control them, including choose not to use them.

well that's your position and I understand you are tired of this topic so I won't argue more. Personally, everything is not very clear, and things like the hat making doesn't help.

 

[BetaRuler]

Perhaps its because those bullets are objects, not people that this happened.

We've seen tons of objects go through these logias when they arent looking, but rarely do we see people pass through them, Croc is one of the few people that i have seen some one pass through and that might be the skill only he has which he bragged about when he fought Luffy.

Edit: proof points
Bullets and Brookes sword - go through Kizaru
Rayleigh and Marco's kicks - Hit Kizaru (im not sure what Apoos attack was exactly tho, probably that explosions aren't something Kizaru's element can pass through)
I might have hit a stumbling block in this theory here because Rayleigh then swiped Kizaru with a sword, but we don't know what kind of sword that is, it might have had sea stone in it for all we know, something was strange.

And for Ace
Gets grabbed by Black Beard, why couldn't he just "phase himself" through BB eh? Haki?
But bullets go through him
Gets hit by Smoker flying into him, also got chucked into a river by village people.

Enel, phased through plenty of attacks made by weapons but no one really touched him did they? Something seemed different by that tribe guys reject attack that stopped Enels heart.

After all that, I think this logia theory definately has something to do with people vs objects.

Although Smoker managed to phase through alot of humans in his introduction... Arghhh this logia mystery is unfair ;_;

 

[Zehahaha]

And for Ace
Gets grabbed by Black Beard, why couldn't he just "phase himself" through BB eh? Haki?
But bullets go through him
Gets hit by Smoker flying into him, also got chucked into a river by village people.

Enel, phased through plenty of attacks made by weapons but no one really touched him did they? Something seemed different by that tribe guys reject attack that stopped Enels heart.

For Enel, Waipa used seastone, that's why he was able to touch him
For Ace, well nah, BB with his ability is able to touch Logia users, so there's no haki here i believe ^^

 

[pirateninjahunter]

Was it stated somewhere, that crocodile is better than Ace at controlling his logia?

 

[BlackHair]

Was it stated somewhere, that crocodile is better than Ace at controlling his logia?

No. But Croco is probably longer in posses of his fruit than Ace.

 

[goldb]

I'd say in terms of mastery or control of their logia abilities; I'd place the admirals up top then Crocodile and Enel, then Ace, then Smoker and BB who despite his strength hasn't had his fruit for as long as the others.

Jus because I put Crocodile before Ace doesn't mean I think he's stronger, it just means I think he's has a better control over his fruit than Ace. Physically Ace is stronger imo, since he lost to Luffy.

We know Aokiji's had his logia powers for at least 20 years, he's probably mastered it, the same can be said of the other admirals, but I think ultimately there's mroe to them than jus their DF abilities.

For me the whole haki vs logia is simple; a character able to use haki means they are able to make physical contact to an otherwise physically untouchable elements. there's many different uses of haki, the above is just one example. we saw the Boa sisters could perdict movements with theirs as well as stop Luffy's rubber.

 

[pirateninjahunter]

I'd say in terms of mastery or control of their logia abilities; I'd place the admirals up top then Crocodile and Enel, then Ace, then Smoker and BB who despite his strength hasn't had his fruit for as long as the others.

Jus because I put Crocodile before Ace doesn't mean I think he's stronger, it just means I think he's has a better control over his fruit than Ace. Physically Ace is stronger imo, since he lost to Luffy.

We know Aokiji's had his logia powers for at least 20 years, he's probably mastered it, the same can be said of the other admirals, but I think ultimately there's mroe to them than jus their DF abilities.

For me the whole haki vs logia is simple; a character able to use haki means they are able to make physical contact to an otherwise physically untouchable elements. there's many different uses of haki, the above is just one example. we saw the Boa sisters could perdict movements with theirs as well as stop Luffy's rubber.

You post made things a lot clear to me!

I understand now: Luffy was able to defeat croc because:
1- he found out how to hit crocodile
2- he happens to be stronger than crocodile

It is clear now. But it is at the same time not fair. Because Luffy was able to use his DF while crocodile could not do that... Luffy was able to strech his body to give croc really powerfull punches.


Being able to beat crocodile seems to mean that crocodile is not strong. He could have at least a little bit more vigor and stamina... Look, Magellan was able to absorb all of luffy's punches!

Luffy didn't even have gear 2 or 3, and he still was able to defeat croc with his punches... I thought that croc was strong, but now....

 

[BetaRuler]

Luffy's strong point has always been to give people strong punches, even Magellan felt alot of pain from taking Luffy's punches.

Luffy's punches aren't things that anyone seem able to take on, y'kno it started with him punching as hard as a pistol, the ammount of power that must have had was immense. Even if your a powerful like Crocodile or Magellan, I don't think anyone would feel too great taking a large bullet to the face.

And I still reckon the logia has something to do with people vs inanimate objects, rather than the haki when it comes to why people hit eachother without Haki.

 

[deffkryz]

Hm, somehow I wonder why WB showed up with four almost identical ships that don't have cannons in their bows. Could it be that those ships have some awesome super-pwnage like the Gaon Cannon but way bigger and much more devastating?

 

[BlackHair]

They have cannons. In fact they are having a sea battle with their ships.

 

[deffkryz]

They have cannons. In fact they are having a sea battle with their ships.

On those pictures there are still no cannons on or inside the bow (Wikipedia), that's the port/starboard side of the ship's hull.

I meant something like this, maybe hidden inside that figurehead WB is standing upon.

 

[BlackHair]

ah', learned sth new here. I personally don't believe WB's ship has some kind of Franky like weapon. The Sunny-go is unique. And I guess WB himself is a much more frightening weapon than the Goan weapon, so is no real need for a weapon like that. ^^