Thanks for the reply. I'll give my thoughts on how I see it and give my examples, but this is one where the smallest detail could be really cool, so if you have some counter example, please let me know.
Okay so I want to premise that there is a difference between being skilled and being powerful. It's why people commonly make the distinction of "weak but skilled" as a character archetype. So in that framework, here is why Caesar and Crocodile have their distinctions. Crocodile is the easiest.
Crocodile:
Only logia in existence that has demonstrated a unique ability locked to his right hand specifically. Moisture absorption. This ability doesnt make sense under current logia paradigms. It being locked to the hand doesnt make sense. it playing around with moisture doesnt super make sense in the sense that the actual heatbased fruits are unable to provoke a similar response. Where is the moisture going? It's not going to Crocodile, because even drops of blood hard counter him. It's not like he's putting his hand down and spreading sand, but that drawing in of water into his body is moving his fruit away from a sand fruit, and more a desertfication fruit, which itself begins to encroach on the biome logias that Aramaki and Caribo have.
Biome magnification, in where his power provokes the natural desert environment to become worse with sandstorms. Maybe this is an ability that is knocking on the door of a logia awakening. Maybe it's just getting smart with what he can stir up.
Caesar:
Gas synthesis to the point that he can synthesize any gas he wants and also its antidote, as an expression of his mastery over the subject matter. The only other logia that can demonstrate a wide range of expression on their field is Aramaki, since he can produce multiple expressions of plant life. That said, because caesar can produce even chemicals that he himself synthesized, he is in another league.
Meanwhile Ace and Sabo, for example, have never produced blue fire, which is the common upgrade for fire characters. This may be a case of not all logias are born equal.
Oxygen (and ambient gas) absorption
So, Caesar can remove the ambient element around him. To the best of my knowledge, we have not seen any other logia remove their logia element, that existed in a space without them generating it. Or in other words, we havent seen something like Ace go to a burning boat and draw the flames into their bodies, or Aokiji go to random ice and draw it into his body.
Caesar so far, is the only one (to the best of my knowledge) who will acitvely remove gas that he didnt produce. This power is maybe closer to Crocodile, though Crocodile still gets distinction for drawing in something that isnt his element.
Casual element production and control at all times--
this one depends on the reader, but generally in shonen, this sort of thing would be considered a focus exercise, such that the logic would be that if you're constantly engaging let's say the emission muscle, you're constantly training it. Under this rationale, the only other person who might constantly be engaging their power and a manifestation of it is Karasu.
The monster form--
I personally dont find this to be an expression of high skill, but I will put it here for fairness, while also pointing out that others have similar forms. (Enel, Aramkai.)
One could say that it took Luffy some time to figure out his altered modes, so we could say that the modes for the others have a equivalent level of difficulty and understanding of their bodies to pull off, with proper distinctions made for G2/G3 vs Luffy actual "monster" mode in Gear 4.
So, the synthesis aspect is by far the most busted. Because this one incorporates actual knowledge of chemistry, it qualifies for high skill. It is quite literally the most "I achieved mastery by studying" expression of high skill. In synthesis alone, Caesar is king.
In (ambient) element manipulation, Caesar is high up there.
Honorable mention for Enel, he is the only logia to have combined observation haki into his fruit to gain the unique ability to be aware of electro magnetic radiation. This is without a doubt a high-skill application, and the only person who can rival him in the category of "Devil Fruit-Haki integration, general" is Luffy, with the guys who coat their df emissions in haki very distant competitors.
Regarding your last thought on Awakenings, I think I would agree, and thats why I took care to say "his mastery of his casual element is the highest that we have seen."
I wasn't super confident on the awakenings since we've only seen maybe their consequences.
I would contend, however, that if the Logia awakenings are marked by the ability to permanently change an environment, then Crocodile is once more knocking on the door of that ability. It's possible that crocodile's explanation is the mechanical breakdown of how an awakening works on a more detailed level. I wouldnt call Croc's an awakening, but I would be very comfortable saying that right hand ability is an omen of the awakening being nearby. And because Croc is a new world level pirate, he is probably going to show that Awakening during final war.
Thanks again for the chat.
If we wanted to have fun, we could tabulate all the unique features the Logias have shown us. There's one category that Kizaru and Karasu are very good at, for example, that wasnt really covered here.
That sounds great. I'd be down for that. And for me, unification of different powers is an end goal of power development for various characters. Quick examples I can think of.
Naruto: sort of a unification of sage mode with Kurama.
Bleach: unification of all powersets.
Black Clover: not true unification, but high usage of ki based abilites with the anti magic. More like harmony.
Well that's lame. And I swear to God if Imu knock down Loki on offscreen and THAT'S how he can start full attack on Elbaf I will riot. Btw with the way he's huffing and wheezing right now Imu shouldn't be soo full of himself because it may happen that he will have to run for his life once his limit will approach it's end.
Thanks for the reply. I'll give my thoughts on how I see it and give my examples, but this is one where the smallest detail could be really cool, so if you have some counter example, please let me know.
Okay so I want to premise that there is a difference between being skilled and being powerful. It's why people commonly make the distinction of "weak but skilled" as a character archetype. So in that framework, here is why Caesar and Crocodile have their distinctions. Crocodile is the easiest.
Crocodile:
Only logia in existence that has demonstrated a unique ability locked to his right hand specifically. Moisture absorption. This ability doesnt make sense under current logia paradigms. It being locked to the hand doesnt make sense. it playing around with moisture doesnt super make sense in the sense that the actual heatbased fruits are unable to provoke a similar response. Where is the moisture going? It's not going to Crocodile, because even drops of blood hard counter him. It's not like he's putting his hand down and spreading sand, but that drawing in of water into his body is moving his fruit away from a sand fruit, and more a desertfication fruit, which itself begins to encroach on the biome logias that Aramaki and Caribo have.
Biome magnification, in where his power provokes the natural desert environment to become worse with sandstorms. Maybe this is an ability that is knocking on the door of a logia awakening. Maybe it's just getting smart with what he can stir up.
Caesar:
Gas synthesis to the point that he can synthesize any gas he wants and also its antidote, as an expression of his mastery over the subject matter. The only other logia that can demonstrate a wide range of expression on their field is Aramaki, since he can produce multiple expressions of plant life. That said, because caesar can produce even chemicals that he himself synthesized, he is in another league.
Meanwhile Ace and Sabo, for example, have never produced blue fire, which is the common upgrade for fire characters. This may be a case of not all logias are born equal.
Oxygen (and ambient gas) absorption
So, Caesar can remove the ambient element around him. To the best of my knowledge, we have not seen any other logia remove their logia element, that existed in a space without them generating it. Or in other words, we havent seen something like Ace go to a burning boat and draw the flames into their bodies, or Aokiji go to random ice and draw it into his body.
Caesar so far, is the only one (to the best of my knowledge) who will acitvely remove gas that he didnt produce. This power is maybe closer to Crocodile, though Crocodile still gets distinction for drawing in something that isnt his element.
Casual element production and control at all times--
this one depends on the reader, but generally in shonen, this sort of thing would be considered a focus exercise, such that the logic would be that if you're constantly engaging let's say the emission muscle, you're constantly training it. Under this rationale, the only other person who might constantly be engaging their power and a manifestation of it is Karasu.
The monster form--
I personally dont find this to be an expression of high skill, but I will put it here for fairness, while also pointing out that others have similar forms. (Enel, Aramkai.)
One could say that it took Luffy some time to figure out his altered modes, so we could say that the modes for the others have a equivalent level of difficulty and understanding of their bodies to pull off, with proper distinctions made for G2/G3 vs Luffy actual "monster" mode in Gear 4.
So, the synthesis aspect is by far the most busted. Because this one incorporates actual knowledge of chemistry, it qualifies for high skill. It is quite literally the most "I achieved mastery by studying" expression of high skill. In synthesis alone, Caesar is king.
In (ambient) element manipulation, Caesar is high up there.
Honorable mention for Enel, he is the only logia to have combined observation haki into his fruit to gain the unique ability to be aware of electro magnetic radiation. This is without a doubt a high-skill application, and the only person who can rival him in the category of "Devil Fruit-Haki integration, general" is Luffy, with the guys who coat their df emissions in haki very distant competitors.
Regarding your last thought on Awakenings, I think I would agree, and thats why I took care to say "his mastery of his casual element is the highest that we have seen."
I wasn't super confident on the awakenings since we've only seen maybe their consequences.
I would contend, however, that if the Logia awakenings are marked by the ability to permanently change an environment, then Crocodile is once more knocking on the door of that ability. It's possible that crocodile's explanation is the mechanical breakdown of how an awakening works on a more detailed level. I wouldnt call Croc's an awakening, but I would be very comfortable saying that right hand ability is an omen of the awakening being nearby. And because Croc is a new world level pirate, he is probably going to show that Awakening during final war.
Thanks again for the chat.
If we wanted to have fun, we could tabulate all the unique features the Logias have shown us. There's one category that Kizaru and Karasu are very good at, for example, that wasnt really covered here.
Punk hazard's current state could be due to the island being subjected to the awakenings of two admirals. It's not a fact of course but it's not hard to imagine two logia awakenings of that level competing for territory to turn into ice and magma respectively.
I don't really doubt that both caesar and crocodile are skilled at using their fruits. But caesar just isn't strong in the yonko executive tier (and that with it being pretty wide). Probably even less than that unless the person in question is a rare instance of strong without haki (like franky). Crocodile is weird because his power level is probably the least consistent in the series. Oda admitted to it being a mistake for luffy to defeat him so early. And now he is one of the most important people in the new world with him being the actual brains behind the cross guild. Crocodile was fairly proud of his mastery of his fruit but lacking an awakening puts a big asterisk on that. I suppose there could be some wiggle room if an awakening is framed as your mind catching up to your body. Since that's ambiguous enough that you could do some pretty complicated nonsense with an ability but not be at a point where your body and mind are entirely aligned. You'd think someone like buggy who has a simple ability he has been using non stop for decades would already long be at that point.
Integration of haki and devil fruits IMO is a bit specific to the ability. I don't think other people necessarily have the possibility of such synergies. Maybe kizaru could do an improved version of enel's electron enhanced observation haki. Though I have no idea of what he could do with armor haki in this regard. Katakuri has his square mochi which seems like a relevant synergy between mochi and armor haki. Kinemon has a neat fruit but it having any synergy with haki sounds absurd even. Maybe kinemon is not smart enough to create armor or something more useful that could be buffed with haki.
The more I see Imu the less I'm liking the design, particularly the face. For a final villain I'd prefer a more intimidating face or if going the good looking route something more akin to King would have been better. Right now he just looks like Kaido & King hybrid with poorly places horns.
Also the side hair think makes him kind of look like Sanji but he wears it poorly compared to Mr. Prince.
The more I see Imu the less I'm liking the design, particularly the face. For a final villain I'd prefer a more intimidating face or if going the good looking route something more akin to King would have been better. Right now he just looks like Kaido & King hybrid with poorly places horns.
Also the side hair think makes him kind of look like Sanji but he wears it poorly compared to Mr. Prince.
Yeah, I also don't like him. Like, there’s soo much going on: the horns, ring with EYES, that weird ribbon thingys that float around his legs, baggy pants with stripes on them, side bangs and pretty face that actually look ugly whenever Imu does ANYTHING. A lot of people praise his design but I don't get the hype. That's why I would rather have Imu NOT coming to Elbaf and show up later with less messy design. You know, something bit simpler but still recognizable and intimidating.
The more I see Imu the less I'm liking the design, particularly the face. For a final villain I'd prefer a more intimidating face or if going the good looking route something more akin to King would have been better. Right now he just looks like Kaido & King hybrid with poorly places horns.
Also the side hair think makes him kind of look like Sanji but he wears it poorly compared to Mr. Prince.
He’s in his “God form”, you can tell the hair are the same as Luffy when he goes into gear 5.
I wonder if we will see his true face when he runs out of stamina or when he reaches the time limit to stay in the outer world.
He’s in his “God form”, you can tell the hair are the same as Luffy when he goes into gear 5.
I wonder if we will see his true face when he runs out of stamina or when he reaches the time limit to stay in the outer world.
I think no.. I think we'll only see his "true face" when Luffy enter the Empty Throne to fight Imu - it would be pretty epic and suitable for the final villain of One Piece, considering that inside Pangea he won't have time limit, and he probably can have more freedom there
i been looking at the preview..and i been thinking...who the hell are these?,, Sanji and Nami,, made by some other artist? the magic circle over them it was like the one Imu's use when he came to Elbaf...
i been looking at the preview..and i been thinking...who the hell are these?,, Sanji and Nami,, made by some other artist? the magic circle over them it was like the one Imu's use when he came to Elbaf...
oh...the guy below is sooo Sanji Like,,,same hairdo ... and the magic circle is almost the same as when imu came to elbaf,, black pillars of smoke and everething..
Well that's lame. And I swear to God if Imu knock down Loki on offscreen and THAT'S how he can start full attack on Elbaf I will riot. Btw with the way he's huffing and wheezing right now Imu shouldn't be soo full of himself because it may happen that he will have to run for his life once his limit will approach it's end.
I honestly never expected to see him like this so soon , so i never tough on an hybrid or advanced form,,,i was totally hooked on the classic fanarts they made of him -- as a human with a Crown --yeah that one being super Vivi's look a like,, just way more sexy --- and female too ..
i think at some point his time is goin to run out, and we are goin to see him how he was before -JUST NOT SHADOWED,, with crown and everething- before coming back to Mariejois--- Oda's have been play so much with that Shape...that i still have doubt--- IT IS MADE LIKE THAT for block it FOR US READERS..---
or it is a Shadow being FOR US READERS- AND CHARACTERS IN THE MANGA TOO---i started doubting about this when he appaered in G.V on his classic Mariejois shadow like with some sort of crown- and still it was a Shadow being,,, and behave like one --
So to make it short this is my resume --
1)He have a Human Shape
2)It was never showcased--Not for us readers- Not for the chars in the story -Not even Gorosei
this would imply the Mariejois scenes for example- is not like it was obscured FOR us- It was a Shadow being for EVERYONE--
Gorosei- Cobra, Sabo, Gunko...
--- Double Post Merged, ---
#1183 Hint
--- Double Post Merged, ---
Unconfirmed #1183 Spoilers
Imu reveals a new power backed by OMEN, and Loki’s dragon form is overwhelmed.
Sanji and Zoro appears in this chapter, and they both have decided who they will fight. Sanji vs Killingham and Zoro vs Sommers.
Japanese:
「イムの魔の手がエルバフに襲いかかると…！？
Romaji:
Imu no ma no te ga Erubafu ni osoi kakaru to…!?
English:
I wonder if Imu’s demonic hand / evil clutches will attack Elbaf…!?
hINT 1:
Loki is in the hybrid form.
Imu has a clear upper hand against Loki now.
Luffy is all ready to go out toward the end of the chapter, and this time, he ain’t eating.
Sommers is in the chapter, so the hint above and this confirms it. I
Do you guys see it?
Loki getting overwhelmed.
Loki hybrid form.
Mention of Sanji and Zoro matchups. (They decided who they were fighting last chapter. odd to say it's being decided now.)
Mention of Luffy at end.
It's the same structure as last time.
Hey... aren't these pretty close to the false early spoilers from last time?
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Hey! These are pretty similiar to last time!
Do you guys see it?
Loki getting overwhelmed.
Loki hybrid form.
Mention of Sanji and Zoro matchups. (They decided who they were fighting last chapter. odd to say it's being decided now.)
Mention of Luffy at end.
It's the same structure as last time.
Hey... aren't these pretty close to the false early spoilers from last time?
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Hey! These are pretty similiar to last time!
Do you guys see it?
Loki getting overwhelmed.
Loki hybrid form.
Mention of Sanji and Zoro matchups. (They decided who they were fighting last chapter. odd to say it's being decided now.)
Mention of Luffy at end.
It's the same structure as last time.
Man, I think the person is gambling on things that are probably going to happen.
Like it is guranteed that we'll see the hybrid form (but what does that offer other than attack options with limbs? He needs the awakened hybrid form), so eventually, these fake leaks will be correct.
Man, I think the person is gambling on things that are probably going to happen.
Like it is guranteed that we'll see the hybrid form (but what does that offer other than attack options with limbs? He needs the awakened hybrid form), so eventually, these fake leaks will be correct.
Hybrid Loki REALLY need to happen or else he won't survive this Imu shit.