Discussion One thing I noticed in the new OVA

[TheOwl]

The new OVA was pretty good, however there is one point that I think needs to be discussed, and that is the landscape. One of the most interesting questions about the SNK world is: Where are the Walls located, if they are on Earth?

Since most of the characters seem to come from a German (or European) background most of us assume that the Walls are located in Europe. However, the landscape in the OVA is a mix between a badland and a desert. There are very few landscapes of the same type in Europe; one being in Spain (Bardenas Reales) where the Walls can't possibly fit, and the other being in Poland (Bledow desert) in which there are no mountains, as there were in the desert in SNK. Also, are there any lizards like the one Jean tried to hunt in Europe?

Certain landscapes and such lizards can be found in the U.S., though. Maybe the Walls are located there?

I'd like to know your though on the matter .

 

[ArtIristic]

I may not live in Germany, but I'll tell you, I've never once seen a giant lizard crossing my neighborhood. We had like wolves come from Germany, and even a moose swam over from Sweden one time.
And I think the desert area must have been a mistake by the director or production designer, because Isayama has kept the series environment very consistently German as far as I can tell.
There aren't any bears for example.

Although confusingly enough, Before the Fall also has a canyon right next to Shiganshina.
That could be a coincidental, but it may be likely that the Walls do take place in America. So all those (mostly) German people, may have migrated from Europe.
So if we were to flip the map that come with the covers, it does make a bit more sense.

 

[leneq]

here's a post on tumblr about the lizard and a bird from that OVA
but at the same time it can't be in Germany as there's no place where the walls could stand and not be close to the sea. The closest it could be to Germany is on Czech Republic's and Poland's territories. The comparison of territory humanity has in Shingeki no Kyojin to Europe.

 

[TheOwl]

I may not live in Germany, but I'll tell you, I've never once seen a giant lizard crossing my neighborhood. We had like wolves come from Germany, and even a moose swam over from Sweden one time.

You had wolves and a moose come to your neighborhood?! Your neighborhood sounds awesome . On a more serious note, wolf packs tend to go to cities during harsh winters. Something like that happened in my grandmother's natal town when she was a teenager. Nobody died, but a guy got bitten in the buttocks (yes, you read that correctly). Since that day everybody in the town started using the word 'Arse' instead of his last name when talking about him.

And I think the desert area must have been a mistake by the director or production designer, because Isayama has kept the series environment very consistently German as far as I can tell.
There aren't any bears for example.

Indeed. Even when he drew the walled area as seen from above back in the early chapters, there were no areas that could be interpreted as deserts. There were either grasslands or forests.

Although confusingly enough, Before the Fall also has a canyon right next to Shiganshina.
That could be a coincidental, but it may be likely that the Walls do take place in America. So all those (mostly) German people, may have migrated from Europe.
So if we were to flip the map that come with the covers, it does make a bit more sense.

Well, we DO have to flip the map so we can read the seemingly undecipherable characters. And by 'we' I mean the ones among us SNK fans who can read and understand Japanese; myself, unfortunately, not included.
However, the sea between the two continents in abnormally narrow. At first I thought that people migrated from the Scandinavian Peninsula to Central/Eastern Europe, not knowing that Scandinavia is not a peninsula.

here's a post on tumblr about the lizard and a bird from that OVA
but at the same time it can't be in Germany as there's no place where the walls could stand and not be close to the sea. The closest it could be to Germany is on Czech Republic's and Poland's territories. The comparison of territory humanity has in Shingeki no Kyojin to Europe.

Thank you. I don't see why the fact that the walls could be in Poland and the Czech Republic bothers people. Just because the people are German, it doesn't have to be Germany.

 

[Themistocles]

This is all assuming that the world of Attack on Titan is this one and not a fantasy one, and it is assuming the author is being careful to take the wildlife and temperance of a certain geographical location. But I want to add to the conversation too!

One of the problems I find with Attack on Titan is the sense of scale, and particularly with the walls. The sketches that Isayama makes just don't reflect their real scale or proportion. Next, the drawings of the landscapes outside the walls are inconsistent. Sometimes they are desolate and desert like, and other times they are lush with giant trees.

If a real world equivalent exists it would have to match the drawing in the middle of volume 2 shown here: http://i19.mangapanda.com/shingeki-no-kyojin/5/shingeki-no-kyojin-2078701.jpg


I'm not Geography master, but I can't think of a mountain with rivers that big running almost perfectly North, South, East, West like that, though a search for a mountain like with a lake like that on our globle might lead us to inspiration as to where it is.

Moreover, in Volume 1 Erin talks with Armin about the world, and the mention of oceans filled with salt bring up two clues. The first is that the walls are in a location where salt is scarce, and that the walls are far enough away from the oceans not to see them from the walls.

About a year ago there was the revelation of the writing on the backside of the covers and we learned that the Titans appeared 107 years ago, and humanity tried to cross the sea, and the walls were prepared but erected 7 years after the Titan's appearance on the other continent, and 100 years before the main story.

Now I ain't a mathematician, but it would be very interesting to figure out how far you can physically see from a height of 50m due to the angel of refraction, and that distance would give us a better idea of how far from the coastline the walls are, and from there we could create a better hypothesis of where it might lie in our world.

Though, I don't think Isayama really put that much effort into making the location of the walls that exact. The focus is more on the story that is unfolding and the conspiracies we are learning about than the world itself, or the setting.

 

[PIXISSUUU]

On the OVA. I'm not sure I consider it Canon. Its more like Filler. I will say though that the wastelands look a lot like the cadet training area. I kind of lost it when I saw the cactus on the map though!

Thank you. I don't see why the fact that the walls could be in Poland and the Czech Republic bothers people. Just because the people are German, it doesn't have to be Germany.

I see a trend that some German readers really want to believe the land inside the walls is Germany despite clues to the contrary. Certainly its a way to feel more connected to the story, but clues point to different conclusions. I got into a rather long winded debate about this issue in the Before the Fall thread.

Anyway, the people within the walls were supposed to have migrated there. Does that mean they came from Germany to another land, and that's why they speak German? Because if they came to the walls from somewhere else and the walls surrounded Germany already, they would speak another native tongue, not German! So which is it? I mean, its likely the migration story is BS, but since it seems clear everyone's been brainwashed we have no clue as to where they are on Earth (Earth?), where they originated, and how they got there. Bottom line is the people in the walled cities speak German, look German, build like Germans, but we really don't know where they came from.

I'm not Geography master, but I can't think of a mountain with rivers that big running almost perfectly North, South, East, West like that, though a search for a mountain like with a lake like that on our globle might lead us to inspiration as to where it is.

Moreover, in Volume 1 Erin talks with Armin about the world, and the mention of oceans filled with salt bring up two clues. The first is that the walls are in a location where salt is scarce, and that the walls are far enough away from the oceans not to see them from the walls.

Great point! The lands within the walls are almost too perfect in geography. I brought up an idea that they might be a product of geoengineering which is maybe too imaginative for some people to consider, but a reasonable one to make given how eerily radially symmetric the lands inside the walls are. Another great point about the walls being too close to the oceans. There's been 57 Survey Corps expeditions beyond the walls, and many of them took place before losing Wall Maria. If the walls were right next to the coastline, the SC would have likely run into one. Even if they haven't found the sea yet, if the walls surrounded Germany, the Sea inlet where Hamburg lies would still be getting seawater flowing into it (so salt water wouldn't be surprising to Eren or Armin).

Given what we know about the land inside the walls, it would be hard to place anywhere on Earth really. I can't think of a single landmass the size of Texas with a lone high mountain and rivers flowing down in all directions. Therefore, we don't know where its happening on earth, or if the land they are on has been engineered somehow, or maybe that they're NOT on Earth...interesting thought right? Since we have no history before 107 years, there's no real way to place it historically, so we dont even know WHEN it takes place. (Given that Hanji names a titan after Russian Serial Killer/Cannibal Chikatilo who died in 1994 however, its likely all of this is happening after 1994, in my opinion).

So if we don't know where or when this all happened, there may be no problems, geographically, with having a wasteland within the walls.

 

[leneq]

(Given that Hanji names a titan after Russian Serial Killer/Cannibal Chikatilo who died in 1994 however, its likely all of this is happening after 1994, in my opinion).

Chikatilo? Which titan was named after him? I only remember Sawney and Bean and that legend is based on a person who lived in 15th/16th century.
Hanji naming titans after real people doesn't mean that she knows stories connected to them. It might be just Isayama's choice, as some sort of a wink towards readers.

Their technology and generally how the scenery looks like are the best evidences that the story can't take place before the invention of steam engine. Titans don't destroy anything unless there are people around and obviously don't clean around. And even outside the walls all we saw were old buildings just like the ones inside the walls and unspoilt landscapes. Nothing more, no cars or anything more left there.

Wouldn't it be the easiest to try establish where forests with such tall trees grow? SNK's wikia says that The Forest of Giant Trees has trees that are around 80m tall, but the Female Titan is 14m tall and to me it looked like she was only a bit less than half the size of these trees, so they'd be around 30m.

PIXISSUUU why do you say that they speak German? I don't remember it being ever mentioned and obviously in the anime they speak Japanese so I have no idea where this idea came from.


It is confirmed that Isayama based the city on German city Nördlingenand and most of the surnames are German, so it's not strange that some people assume that's where the action takes place. But taking into consideration all the aspects we mentioned here, it just can't be Germany OR Isayama just didn't really go into detail, just drew whatever landscapes, fauna and flora.

 

[PIXISSUUU]

Chikatilo? Which titan was named after him? I only remember Sawney and Bean and that legend is based on a person who lived in 15th/16th century.

She also mentioned two previous titans they had captured, and named Albert and Chikatilo (although it gets mistranslated in the anime as Chicachironi or something). I read about the connection to these two titans here. Since Chikatilo died in 1994, Hanji probably lived after he existed and committed his cannibalistic murders. Somehow his story manages to get passed down despite the memory manipulation.

EDIT: I'm actually now realizing this may have only been in the Anime. Is that still considered canon??? Maybe it weakens the post 1994 conclusion...

Spoiler

Hanji naming titans after real people doesn't mean that she knows stories connected to them. It might be just Isayama's choice, as some sort of a wink towards readers.

True, but Isayama isn't the type to send winks to the reader or provide fan service. I think its a clue, but of course its not hard proof this is an era that occurs after modern (present) times.

Their technology and generally how the scenery looks like are the best evidences that the story can't take place before the invention of steam engine. Titans don't destroy anything unless there are people around and obviously don't clean around. And even outside the walls all we saw were old buildings just like the ones inside the walls and unspoilt landscapes. Nothing more, no cars or anything more left there.

You're premise is that given all that humanity has done to manipulate the landscape, that there would be some trace of it left. Its also possible that people who are able to make titans are also capable of returning a landscape to a pristine state, or possibly relocating people to a location where there hasn't been any human impact yet. Doesn't even have to be Earth. I'm not saying that's the explanation for sure, but its a possibility.

Wouldn't it be the easiest to try establish where forests with such tall trees grow? SNK's wikia says that The Forest of Giant Trees has trees that are around 80m tall, but the Female Titan is 14m tall and to me it looked like she was only a bit less than half the size of these trees, so they'd be around 30m.

That would put the Walls in California, as the giant trees resemble Sequoias.

Spoiler

Here's some 3DMG from the present era. Unfortunately the geography doesn't work out again as California is too close to the ocean.

PIXISSUUU why do you say that they speak German? I don't remember it being ever mentioned and obviously in the anime they speak Japanese so I have no idea where this idea came from.

That's a really good point and you're right that there's no guarantee that they speak German. I just assumed it was the case because of the names. Certainly their written language doesn't resemble German at all. I guess I just had a personal bias towards believing they spoke German as I love the language. As great as the Japanese voice actors are in this series, I love the German FanDubs that have been popping up. AoT just sounds "richtig auf Deutsch" (right in German). Especially love Annie's voice in this one.

 

[leneq]

EDIT: I'm actually now realizing this may have only been in the Anime. Is that still considered canon??? Maybe it weakens the post 1994 conclusion...

Anime is definitely canon. But it just can't take place on Earth in our timeline (? I don't know proper sci-fi names for these sort of things, sorry) because of how far behind they are with technology. Even if they left everything behind there would be someone who could at least reproduce some of these technical inventions yet they're still riding carriages and using candles.

Its also possible that people who are able to make titans are also capable of returning a landscape to a pristine state, or possibly relocating people to a location where there hasn't been any human impact yet.

Do you seriously believe that? It's just really unbelievable in my opinion.

My knowledge of trees is really poor, but I tried googling for such forests yesterday and I couldn't find anything worth mentioning. Redwoods seemed the closest to it, but just as you said - it's too close to the ocean. I think there's no point with checking every little geographical detail, clearly it's not our world or Isayama isn't consistent with it, either way for now there's no way to tell what year and place the action takes place.

True, but Isayama isn't the type to send winks to the reader or provide fan service. I think its a clue, but of course its not hard proof this is an era that occurs after modern (present) times.

I didn't mean it as fan service. I agree that it might be a clue, but I wouldn't treat it as a clue what year it is. I'd look into the story of that person and try to find anything that could be applied to titans, like this guy's motif or something along these lines.
Isayama actually leaves lots of clues - like Annie's fighting stance both in person and titan forms, Bertholdt being close to changing in front of everyone in Castle Utgard, how shifters always shared strange eye contact... I'm also pretty sure there's plenty of symbolism hidden behind little details that some might just completely ignore. Things like a pomegranate or a praying mantis, character names and other trivia.

AoT just sounds "richtig auf Deutsch" (right in German). Especially love Annie's voice in this one.

Oh my... I'm a sucker for German language, too, so now I want to watch it in German :O I already love Eren's, Mikasa's and Annie's voice in this.

 

[ArtIristic]

Ok, I found one of these eye catches, and I've always found it rather strange.
Try and spot what is so weird about it.
Again, the anime team could had been the ones behind it.
Also, is that the sea, or just a bunch of black spot up at north?
Could be the Netherlands, but then why haven't they seen it?

Spoiler

 

[TheOwl]

Ok, I found one of these eye catches, and I've always found it rather strange.
Try and spot what is so weird about it.
Again, the anime team could had been the ones behind it.
Also, is that the sea, or just a bunch of black spot up at north?
Could be the Netherlands, but then why haven't they seen it?

Spoiler

Probably just black spots. If the sea were that close, the people from the Northern District of Wall Maria would be able to see it. I believe that the black spots are unexplored.

 

[leneq]

It can't be unexplored as these black spots are even inside the walls (next to a district on the right). I'd say that these are depressions. Other black areas inside the walls must be lakes.
However this image shows that the area in the Wall Sina is completely flat whereas in the manga it is told that it's elevated/has a mountain http://38.media.tumblr.com/236a400a0c353564ab0f419ad78f6179/tumblr_mz5uuqJp3G1tpusuto1_1280.jpg

 

[ArtIristic]

I meant that the black lake spots inside the walls were shaped like Africa, Australia and Greenland. There isn't really any rhyme or reason to it, but there you go.
But yeah, the huge black spot could be depressions or just unexplored land.
Also it's weird how much water comes from that mountain. I know that snow on top is probably providing it, but wouldn't a lake usually be more likely to form such abundant rivers,?. I'm not an expert in rivers, but I just find it a bit odd.

 

[PIXISSUUU]

Could be the Netherlands, but then why haven't they seen it?

Spoiler

I see your point about how the black body of water in the distance resembles the coastal inlets of the Netherlands. However, if this is to scale that would also reduce the area within the walls to less than half (or less than a quarter??) of the previously established area. This is assuming the black body in the distance is the same as the bay (Ijellsmeer & Markermeer) shown here.

Spoiler

According to Isayama's dimensions, the walls are much larger than that.

Spoiler

 

[leneq]

I meant that the black lake spots inside the walls were shaped like Africa, Australia and Greenland. There isn't really any rhyme or reason to it, but there you go.

yeah I noticed Africa and Australia, but I thought I'm only seeing things
Even though these spots aren't in place like on Earth for a second I entertained a thought that this world is reversed - where we have oceans and other water there is land in their world and vice versa. But besides the placement of these black spots also its scale isn't right.

Now that I think of it why won't they travel down the river in a boat? It would be way safer than to ride on horses between all those titans.

 

[PIXISSUUU]

Anime is definitely canon. But it just can't take place on Earth in our timeline (? I don't know proper sci-fi names for these sort of things, sorry) because of how far behind they are with technology. Even if they left everything behind there would be someone who could at least reproduce some of these technical inventions yet they're still riding carriages and using candles.

Do you seriously believe that? It's just really unbelievable in my opinion.

I agree its a pretty unconventional explanation, but in my opinion there aren't any reasons why it can't be true. Like I said, i believe the series takes place after 1994 due to the mention of the story of Russian Cannibal Andrei Chikatilo by Hanji. The fact they ride carriages and use candles and have a general 19th century level of technology is not a meaningful way to place the era because all memories within the walls have been manipulated. On the other hand, they appear to be in a geographic location that's nearly impossible, and they have the tech to manipulate memories, create titans, create titan shifters, and build seamless walls that span thousands of miles. That, combined with Eren's dreams and visions of Mikasa's hair changing length in an instant, along with the opening chapter being called"To you, in 2000 years" makes me suspicious this is the future.

We also have to decide what kind of manga we believe this is. If we're watching Naruto, you have to believe in the chakra system, and if you are watching Death Note, you have to accept that there are death gods. Is Attack on Titan that kind of manga? Is there some magic going on in SnK that we just have to accept? Or will Isayama reveal fairly reasonable non-magical explanations for what is happening in the story?

Its possible as you say, that this is just an alternate timeline. However, my current suspicion is that this is the future. Its not confirmed, and I'll keep my eye out for new evidence, but I think its as good a guess as any right now.

I didn't mean it as fan service. I agree that it might be a clue, but I wouldn't treat it as a clue what year it is. I'd look into the story of that person and try to find anything that could be applied to titans, like this guy's motif or something along these lines.

Chikatilo was a cannibal. So was Albert Fish and Sawney Bean. I think the connection is that Hanji seems to like naming titans after human cannibals.

 

[TheOwl]

yeah I noticed Africa and Australia, but I thought I'm only seeing things
Even though these spots aren't in place like on Earth for a second I entertained a thought that this world is reversed - where we have oceans and other water there is land in their world and vice versa. But besides the placement of these black spots also its scale isn't right.

Now that I think of it why won't they travel down the river in a boat? It would be way safer than to ride on horses between all those titans.

At first I believed that the lakes that were shaped like Australia and Africa were a hint that the story is taking place on Earth. Now, though, I believe that it can be a 'reversed' Earth. Also Don't know how Titans act in the presence of water, or if they can swim. If they can, then going to an Expedition by boat or ship would be much more dangerous than using horses.

 

[leneq]

PIXISSUUU so we agree to disagree

We also have to decide what kind of manga we believe this is. If we're watching Naruto, you have to believe in the chakra system, and if you are watching Death Note, you have to accept that there are death gods. Is Attack on Titan that kind of manga? Is there some magic going on in SnK that we just have to accept? Or will Isayama reveal fairly reasonable non-magical explanations for what is happening in the story?

Hopefully the latter one. I'm ok with titans (especially now that I read a cool theory about science behind their existence), but I just really wish it has scientific explanation to everything. I don't want it to be another Dragon Ball or something
But what I want isn't important, it's not like Isayama now will sit down and think hard how to scientifically explain some of the themes in his story, because someone on the Internet wants it to be that way.

Chikatilo was a cannibal. So was Albert Fish and Sawney Bean. I think the connection is that Hanji seems to like naming titans after human cannibals.

well that's obvious. Too obvious for me, I like to dig too much into every little mystery

Also Don't know how Titans act in the presence of water, or if they can swim. If they can, then going to an Expedition by boat or ship would be much more dangerous than using horses.

It seems that titans can't swim. It was never mentioned, but on the drawings that portray how people run away from all around the world to live in those walls, there's never even one titan inside water. Same goes on the wall in the second ending of anime. I know it's a really shitty argument, but I just can't make myself to think otherwise. Woman's instinct? idk

 

[ArtIristic]

It seems that titans can't swim. It was never mentioned, but on the drawings that portray how people run away from all around the world to live in those walls, there's never even one titan inside water. Same goes on the wall in the second ending of anime. I know it's a really shitty argument, but I just can't make myself to think otherwise. Woman's instinct? idk

I'm not sure if the Titans are capable of crossing large bodies of waters when they have so poor coordination to swim. With the Female Titan, sure.
When their bodies are that light, I would imagine they could float, but they would probably just float away on the mercy of the sea. They might also make easy targets, with the right weapons.
Like whale hunting, but everyone agrees with it. Until irony strikes and there'll be a Titan's protection foundation.

Maybe Jörmungandr is to blame for all the ships that went missing. We got Ymir and Utgarthilocus, so why not bring all the Norse references?

Ok, ok. Back to the OVA!
Did anyone else notice Connie's face?

 

[TheOwl]

It seems that titans can't swim. It was never mentioned, but on the drawings that portray how people run away from all around the world to live in those walls, there's never even one titan inside water. Same goes on the wall in the second ending of anime. I know it's a really shitty argument, but I just can't make myself to think otherwise.

Maybe they can walk on the ocean's floor? The pressure would crush them if they went deep enough though. Maybe, just like ArtIristic said, they can float on the water surface? Like that they would have problems with rivers, but they could get without problems through lakes, seas and oceans as long as the weather is clear.

Woman's instinct? idk

Sound good to me :P .

Maybe Jörmungandr is to blame for all the ships that went missing. We got Ymir and Utgarthilocus, so why not bring all the Norse references?

Could be. Maybe in the SNK world he is a Titan shifter, whose Titan form has serpentine features?

Ok, ok. Back to the OVA!
Did anyone else notice Connie's face?

He was behind Sasha at that point, so I don't really blame the guy(if you know what I mean). Best thing about it is that Sasha seems to be blushing. I am so mature.