Character Oni in retrospect

[Phantron]

He said you won't be able to beat Oni or Tokugawa till you can return 10 balls. So basically if you cannot return ten balls, you will lose for sure.

Yes but then Ryoma said that means if you can do 10-ball you can beat them so the implication is that you potentially could beat Oni with just 10-ball, implying his level is below that. If Oni didn't have Kishin mode, he probably would've lost to Kintaro when he did the flaming ball shot, so it's not unreasonable to say Oni's apparent level is below 10-ball.

 

[floman]

Yes but then Ryoma said that means if you can do 10-ball you can beat them so the implication is that you potentially could beat Oni with just 10-ball, implying his level is below that. If Oni didn't have Kishin mode, he probably would've lost to Kintaro when he did the flaming ball shot, so it's not unreasonable to say Oni's apparent level is below 10-ball.

The coach replied by cursing him off. Ryoma can assume whatever he wants. If you asked Ryoma before he saw Akutsu play seriously whether Akutsu could hit back ten balls he would have said if you can hit back ten balls then you can beat Akutsu (which definitely isn't true). Oni can definitely rally with ten balls in his normal state. It would be ridiculous if he could split the ball into ten and then not return ten.

---------- Post added at 01:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:14 PM ----------

Kintaro even says "I'm keeping up with your pace Oni." It's not like Kintaro was destroying Oni when he used the ten ball strike.

 

[Kaoz]

Yes but then Ryoma said that means if you can do 10-ball you can beat them so the implication is that you potentially could beat Oni with just 10-ball, implying his level is below that. If Oni didn't have Kishin mode, he probably would've lost to Kintaro when he did the flaming ball shot, so it's not unreasonable to say Oni's apparent level is below 10-ball.

Ryoma and Kintarou can't split the ball on their own according to the fanbook, so for them (and almost everyone else), being able to hit multiple balls seems to be purely defensive.

 

[Phantron]

Since Kintaro beat Hakamada without even being serious, we can infer that there are at most a handful of guys in the entire camp that can beat a 5-ball capable guy. Keep in mind Oni's power is mysterious but it can't be like the usual 'mysterious as in never losing' because then there wouldn't be anything mysterious about that. People would just say oh it's Oni the guy who never loses. If you look at the way other people talk about him, outside of those who know him back in H1 most people obviously thought he's someone who can be beaten. I don't see how that's possible if he regularly even uses 10-ball level power, unless the guys challenging him are just downright insane.

 

[Kaoz]

"Most people?" When Oni was first introduced, it sure didn't seem like anyone on the lower courts thought that way, given that Oni was said to beat down everyone who tries to advance past 5th court. Taira and Hara looked pretty scared too at the mere sight of a Black Jack Knife. Byoudouin, Tanegashima and Duke probably beat Oni at some point, and Tokugawa and Irie are maybes, but I don't see why Oni would have had to have lost against anyone else.

 

[Hardy]

Since Kintaro beat Hakamada without even being serious

...that's your opinion.

 

[Phantron]

Oni said Kintaro was hiding his true strength until the rematch.

 

[Hardy]

I discussed this a couple of days ago, I don't see why Oni would know how Kintarou played against Hakamada. Actually, I don't think he would had let Kin win those 3 games if he knew what Tooyama was capable of.

 

[Kaoz]

Well, the match was probably recorded, and since Oni is Oni, he might have permission to watch those recordings (if you even need permission for that). The all-important question we can't answer though is by how much Kintarou actually held back.

 

[Hardy]

That's what I'm talking about, I believe Kintarou didn't hold back at all and that he even improved while playing against Hakamada. As I said, if Oni had seen recordings or wtv he would had started with 5 balls or wtv instead of giving Kintarou 3 free games.

 

[Phantron]

Oni's sort of like a player coach already. We see picture of him near a whiteboard going over stuff, and he also came up with the roster for court 5, so I don't see why he couldn't just review the Hakamada game to get an idea of Kintaro's development.

Since the fanbook alludes the fact that there's a difference between offense/defense, the question should be how many guys can split the ball to 10 or even 5? That is, using 10 real balls teaches you how to defend against 10-ball but it sure doesn't teach you how to split 1 ball into 10 as you can't just bring extra tennis balls with you in a real game. Given Duke was impressed that Kintaro can defend against even 5-ball, it seems like the bar for splitting the ball must be even higher. I'm guessing outside of the few guys in the know, most people simply don't know Oni can even split the ball to 5 let alone more, since being able to defend against 5-ball impresses the #3 player.

 

[Kaoz]

As far as I know, the only players that have ball splitting techniques listed in the fanbook are Byoudouin, Oni and Tokugawa. Ryoga had nothing listed at all, but I'd think he can do it too because he and Akutsu played with a split ball and it's not listed for Akutsu.

 

[-Ken-]

That's what I'm talking about, I believe Kintarou didn't hold back at all and that he even improved while playing against Hakamada. As I said, if Oni had seen recordings or wtv he would had started with 5 balls or wtv instead of giving Kintarou 3 free games.

And here's your opinion too.

If Oni see recording, he know that Kintarou barely beat #14. Since the gap between #14 and #5 s just huge. So he doesn't have any reason not to think it'll be enough to beat Kintarou as is.

 

[Hardy]

And here's your opinion too.

If Oni see recording, he know that Kintarou barely beat #14. Since the gap between #14 and #5 s just huge. So he doesn't have any reason not to think it'll be enough to beat Kintarou as is.

Oh yeah sure, it's all a matter of opinions. But I think it's more believable to think that Oni doesn't need nor would watch recordings or ask Matsu some info about Kintarou.

Most of the match against Hakamada is off screen anyway.

---------- Post added at 10:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 PM ----------

Also, I don't think that there's a huge gap between #14 and Oni without BJK and 5 balls.

 

[-Ken-]

Well, I think there is. The hiding power page would be kinda useless otherwise. The improvement page would be more than enough. If there's not a huge gap, it'll still be useless. Kintarou barely beat #14 before. And he doesn't use the clone in the match against Oni. If there's not a huge gap, Kintarou wouldn't be 3-0 Oni, the score will be more of 3-3. Maybe if Oni were to be weaker than Hakamada without BJK and X ball tech, but I don't see that as too likely. Oni stat is immeasurable.

The last time we ignore Konomi page that was feed to us, some people in this forum don't believe that 10 ball is an actual tier level difference and that fuwa can beat mouri.

 

[Kaoz]

Kintarou barely beat #14 before. And he doesn't use the clone in the match against Oni.

We don't really know if it was close in the end. It heavily depends on how long Kintarou actually took to beat Vanish (we see him lose 5 points to it, but there are no hints as to how many he loses off-screen, if any), nor how much Hakamada scored outside of Vanish.

Also why would he use clones if Oni doesn't use any moves that would make them necessary?

The last time we ignore Konomi page that was feed to us, some people in this forum don't believe that 10 ball is an actual tier level difference and that fuwa can beat mouri.

10 ball doesn't seem to be, unless you're playing one of the, apparently four, people that can actually split the ball. If Ryoma, Kintarou or Akutsu were to play Yukimura or Atobe, it doesn't seem like 10 ball would be of any use for them.

We also don't know how hard Oni was actually trying during those first three games, maybe he played at the level he and Tokugawa beat Kintarou and Ryoma at at the beginning of the series.
Maybe Oni figured that since he destroyed Kintarou when they played the first time (or that's what it looked like at least), he'd still be fine playing at that level, even if Kintarou improved a bit (and he acknowledges that he underestimated how much Kintarou actually improved).

 

[Phantron]

If you can defend against X-ball, that means you get to X chances to hit any normal technique back, so it's going to be awfully hard to try to sneak anything past a guy who can even do 5-ball. Even a hard to predict shot like Giant Habu, if you swing at it 5 times you'll probably guess right one of those times even if you simply guessed blindly.

 

[Kaoz]

Sure, if it's a shot that can end up in multiple places but the same general area, that will probably be helpful. But if we're talking about a normal shot aimed at the open court, being able to hit ten won't do any more for you than being able to hit one if you can't get to it in the first place.

 

[-Ken-]

We don't really know if it was close in the end. It heavily depends on how long Kintarou actually took to beat Vanish (we see him lose 5 points to it, but there are no hints as to how many he loses off-screen, if any), nor how much Hakamada scored outside of Vanish.

Also why would he use clones if Oni doesn't use any moves that would make them necessary?

10 Ball? He sure divided up a rather fair amount.

It's funny how people used the #14 fighting evenly with Kintarou before, only to turn it around now to support another of their point. If only people can be more consistent. But on number of ball, if you look here,

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/new_prince_of_tennis/v07/c065/7.html

It shows wound on Kintarou hand. That's at least one point off screen we haven't seen, at the very minimum.

10 ball doesn't seem to be, unless you're playing one of the, apparently four, people that can actually split the ball. If Ryoma, Kintarou or Akutsu were to play Yukimura or Atobe, it doesn't seem like 10 ball would be of any use for them.

We also don't know how hard Oni was actually trying during those first three games, maybe he played at the level he and Tokugawa beat Kintarou and Ryoma at at the beginning of the series.
Maybe Oni figured that since he destroyed Kintarou when they played the first time (or that's what it looked like at least), he'd still be fine playing at that level, even if Kintarou improved a bit (and he acknowledges that he underestimated how much Kintarou actually improved).

So, I'm guessing Kintarou been hiding his true power the first time he meet Oni? It doesn't make sense to have it pointing to two different timeline. The timeline is set to be rather clear, it's after the mountain training.

 

[Kaoz]

It's funny how people used the #14 fighting evenly with Kintarou before, only to turn it around now to support another of their point. If only people can be more consistent.

I don't believe I've made any judgement about the result of the match before (in recent time and this thread anyway), the only thing I've said in this context is that the Kintarou that played against Hakamada had better stats than the one that played against 2nd court.

That link is pretty useful though, I hadn't noticed the wound before. I guess that would point to it being closer.

So, I'm guessing Kintarou been hiding his true power the first time he meet Oni? It doesn't make sense to have it pointing to two different timeline. The timeline is set to be rather clear, it's after the mountain training.

I believe you misunderstood what I was saying.
Let me put it into numbers, in their first encounter, Oni played at a certain level, say, 10, and completely destroyed Kintarou. Then for the second match he figured that, while Kintarou improved, he'd still be weaker than a 10, and Oni thought he would still be fine if he played at the same level as during the first match. The result might be closer in the end, but Oni thought he'd win either way.