Discussion PIS and eternal sunsets.

[TitaNick]

Attack on Logic

Sorry for yet another "Attack on" title, but I couldn't help it. I wanted to start a thread where we (or at least I) get to vent some things I've been wanting to shout at the screen since Eren et. al. entered the military.

I don't mean to undermine the story's emotional impact, which I see as its core, but I can't help but wonder a few things about our heroes. And I know the artistic reason for a lot of this is drama and style but still …

• Why doesn't anyone wear a freaking helmet? Maybe not a titan-proof one, but those tile roofs in town don't look very soft.

Click to enlarge.

• Not to mention those giant trees. The female titan made ample demonstration of what hitting one of those at high speed will do to a person.
• For that matter, what about some padding? Those uniforms sure are dashing in an "Empire Strikes Back" Luke sort of way, but they seem more appropriate for young officers attending a formal dinner than swinging around and getting eaten.
• Why don't the humans live in reinforced underground bunkers? Or have an evacuation tunnel system of some sort with "ultra hardened steel" gates to keep out the 3-7 meter titans?
• This one also touches on TESB, but why don't the soldiers use their zip lines to trip up the titans?
• Why don't the humans set up various sorts of traps? With a few notable exceptions the titans seem about as dopey as cows. I'm sure they could be lead off a cliff somewhere.
• I don't recall if this was covered in the series, but do titans breathe? If not, what about some moats? Even if they can swim, the slower movement would make them easier targets.
• Like with zombies, the real weak spot of a titan isn't the head, its the feet. Yes titan feet and limbs regenerate, but how about something like spring-loaded underground spikes that would root a titan in place until its neck can get sliced?
• Their other vulnerability is their height. If I were planning a city between two of those gates, I'd string taught cables at various heights between all the buildings. Perhaps they could be placed at regular intervals that actually help soldiers using 3DMG get around.

 

[nesean]

Re: Attack on Logic

The way I see it: Titans (seem to) come out of nowhere and take a bite of unsuspecting humans, the soldiers can't afford to have any kind of visual obstruction (i.e. blind spot); and a helmet will do just that.

 

[TheOwl]

Re: Attack on Logic

Why doesn't anyone wear a freaking helmet? Maybe not a titan-proof one, but those tile roofs in town don't look very soft. Not to mention those giant trees. The female titan made ample demonstration of what hitting one of those at high speed will do to a person.

Agreed.

For that matter, what about some padding? Those uniforms sure are dashing in an "Empire Strikes Back" Luke sort of way, but they seem more appropriate for young officers attending a formal dinner than swinging around and getting eaten.

I might be wrong, but shouldn't padding lower maneuverability?

Why don't the humans live in reinforced underground bunkers? Or have an evacuation tunnel system of some sort with "ultra hardened steel" gates to keep out the 3-7 meter titans?

I could explain this, but I don't know at what point you are with the manga, and I don't want to spoil it.

This one also touches on TESB, but why don't the soldiers use their zip lines to trip up the titans?

I don't really understand this question. Are you talking about the ropes (used the word "ropes" because I don't really know how else to describe them) of the 3DMG?

Why don't the humans set up various sorts of traps? With a few notable exceptions the titans seem about as dopey as cows. I'm sure they could be lead off a cliff somewhere.

Not much was known about the titans until recently. I'm sure something among these lines will be applied later on in the story.

I don't recall if this was covered in the series, but do titans breathe? If not, what about some moats? Even if they can swim, the slower movement would make them easier targets.

They don't breathe. I could also explain this, but I don't know at what point you are with the manga, and I don't want to spoil it.

Like with zombies, the real weak spot of a titan isn't the head, its the feet. Yes titan feet and limbs regenerate, but how about something like spring-loaded underground spikes that would root a titan in place until its neck can get sliced?

The regeneration rate is too big for that to work properly, and something among those lines was used during the retaking of Trost.

Their other vulnerability is their height. If I were planning a city between two of those gates, I'd string taught cables at various heights between all the buildings. Perhaps they could be placed at regular intervals that actually help soldiers using 3DMG get around.

It could be used in a military fortress purposefully made to fight off Titans, not in a town which was well protected until the Colossal Titan arrived.

---------- Post added at 05:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:14 PM ----------

The way I see it: Titans (seem to) come out of nowhere and take a bite of unsuspecting humans, the soldiers can't afford to have any kind of visual obstruction (i.e. blind spot); and a helmet will do just that.

There is a certain kind of helmet called half-helm. It does not protect you as much as a full-helm but it does not create a visual obstruction and it is easier to make.

 

[Beatrice]

Re: Attack on Logic

Helmets:
Yeah Titans never attacked for a century but we need Helmets cause we might bump our heads on roofs.
Extra weight for the Gear, potential sight obstruction, does Humanity even have Materials for actual helmets that provide enough safety?


Page for the Female Titan please, cause if you mean how she smacked a soldier against a tree, no helmet helps there.

How is Padding supposed to help?

Why don't the humans live in reinforced underground bunkers? Or have an evacuation tunnel system of some sort with "ultra hardened steel" gates to keep out the 3-7 meter titans?

Underground Bunkers?!
That's just downright stupid when there are 50m walls protecting Humans with the sole danger being the Colossal Titan, also a hindrance to farming.
And we know there are Tunnel System.
And we know there are gates keeping out the 3-7m Titans.Pay attention.

why don't the soldiers use their zip lines to trip up the titans?

Let's ask Mina Carolina.

Why don't the humans set up various sorts of traps?With a few notable exceptions the titans seem about as dopey as cows. I'm sure they could be lead off a cliff somewhere.

Traps such as?
And a cliff really?Please show us a single cliff in the series.

I don't recall if this was covered in the series, but do titans breathe? If not, what about some moats? Even if they can swim, the slower movement would make them easier targets.

Uhm yes, let's waste precious water that Humanity needs to survive to build giant Moats.

but how about something like spring-loaded underground spikes that would root a titan in place until its neck can get sliced?

Again, you're completely forgetting about the likes of resources.

Their other vulnerability is their height. If I were planning a city between two of those gates, I'd string taught cables at various heights between all the buildings. Perhaps they could be placed at regular intervals that actually help soldiers using 3DMG get around.

That would only obstruct the way for Soldiers.....


Even then, so what?Why are you so desperate of finding flaws?
Enjoy the goddamn story instead of nitpicking at details.
And if anything, have you no trust in Isayama?
It's his work, his "Verse" he knows best the whys and hows.
If you wanna ask all that ask Isayama cause it ain't a matter of Logic, if there are no Helmets, Isayama has his reasons same for everything else.

 

[Utsune]

Re: Attack on Logic

ATTACK ON TITANICK

1) Resources (and character design haha) (I've seen this parody video where they just looped the Eren rolling part... can't find it now XD )
2) N/A
3) Resources (also tech limitation in making light enough material with a compromise in protection?)
4) Wall Cult disagreement (this excuse comes in handy lol)
5) Good point, I think they did do that somewhere?
6) Good suggestion, but I don't think they can set up enough to fend off hordes of them. Also it was only within these 5 years did Titans actually break in (if you don't count the side story) and probably didn't have enough time nor the resources to set them up. I don't cliffs are enough to kill them, if there are cliffs at all.
7) Haha I doubt the titans can swim actually, dunno so no comment. They actually have some kind of moat though, shown when the titans break in a second time.
8) Same as (6) and in the city it's difficult to maneuver the 3DMG like what Ness did (to cut the heels) in the open field during to limited space, though if there is a way to make it work I'd also say limiting their movement is a good idea.
9) Not too sure what you mean...

 

[Nanozom]

Re: Attack on Logic

[*]Their other vulnerability is their height. If I were planning a city between two of those gates, I'd string taught cables at various heights between all the buildings. Perhaps they could be placed at regular intervals that actually help soldiers using 3DMG get around.
[/LIST]

if they strapped trip wires and ropes to hinder the titans, then it would only be like a wall for the ones using the 3DMG as well. I mean how flexible would you be if a latticework of metallic ropes obscured everything in your path?
A easy meal for the titans who would probably crawl under it after a while.
They are not that dumb.

 

[Core D. Roy]

Re: Attack on Logic

Sorry for yet another "Attack on" title, but I couldn't help it. I wanted to start a thread where we (or at least I) get to vent some things I've been wanting to shout at the screen since Eren et. al. entered the military.

I don't mean to undermine the story's emotional impact, which I see as its core, but I can't help but wonder a few things about our heroes. And I know the artistic reason for a lot of this is drama and style but still …

• Why doesn't anyone wear a freaking helmet? Maybe not a titan-proof one, but those tile roofs in town don't look very soft.

Click to enlarge.

• Not to mention those giant trees. The female titan made ample demonstration of what hitting one of those at high speed will do to a person.
• For that matter, what about some padding? Those uniforms sure are dashing in an "Empire Strikes Back" Luke sort of way, but they seem more appropriate for young officers attending a formal dinner than swinging around and getting eaten.
• Why don't the humans live in reinforced underground bunkers? Or have an evacuation tunnel system of some sort with "ultra hardened steel" gates to keep out the 3-7 meter titans?
• This one also touches on TESB, but why don't the soldiers use their zip lines to trip up the titans?
• Why don't the humans set up various sorts of traps? With a few notable exceptions the titans seem about as dopey as cows. I'm sure they could be lead off a cliff somewhere.
• I don't recall if this was covered in the series, but do titans breathe? If not, what about some moats? Even if they can swim, the slower movement would make them easier targets.
• Like with zombies, the real weak spot of a titan isn't the head, its the feet. Yes titan feet and limbs regenerate, but how about something like spring-loaded underground spikes that would root a titan in place until its neck can get sliced?
• Their other vulnerability is their height. If I were planning a city between two of those gates, I'd string taught cables at various heights between all the buildings. Perhaps they could be placed at regular intervals that actually help soldiers using 3DMG get around.

• Helmets don't look cool.
• I doubt that a helmet or a full suit of armor would've helped the guy that was slung against a tree by the female titan.
• Somebody mentioned a while back that there was a horrendous cave-in when they were trying to build an underground settlement. Wish I could find the chapter. This implies there's some sort of common danger to building larger-than-we've-seen bunkers.
• Steel gates would be good for slowing them down, maybe only with bars big enough for humans to fit through. However, the whole structure would have to have this "ultra hardened steel", lest the weaker-material'd walls around the gates simply be smashed by titans.
• I don't think the anchoring mechanism the zip lines use is nearly strong enough to trip a titan. This ain't Rogue Squadron :P
• My best guess is funding. The titan-challenging organizations within the walls are constantly under enough scrutiny as is with their measly amount of volunteers.
• Zoe mentioned something about this in her list of things they subjected Sawney and Bean to. Forget the results off the top of my head though. Although it stands to reason they don't breathe- they don't seem to have internal organs. Just big meat puppets.
• They did have that little ditch behind the broken wall, but it's clear to me their whole society was woefully unprepared to deal with titans. Almost like it was purposefully so.
• Again, if they had more funding I could imagine complex traps being set up. Look how they captured Annie. They probably will make more traps the longer the wall society still exists and has to deal with aberrants and shifters and unknown unknowns.
• Again, this is a good point that when lampshaded, looks exactly as if it were done on purpose. The city planners must've been the same people who built a wall made of titans to keep titans out; I don't think they have the wall inhabitants' best wishes in mind. Maybe humanity as a whole but not theirs.

 

[kkck]

Re: Attack on Logic

As far as protective gear goes I think the issue here is that it wouldn't really do anything. The speed at which the scouting legion plays steam punk spiderman seem to be in the range of "pretty damn fast". Wait, make that "pretty fucking fast". Now, imagine you are at the forest of giant trees trying to outmaneuver a titan and getting to his soft spot (which is not too soft actually, it has to be cut by the hardest steel available to them). If something goes wrong at this speeds and assuming a titan does not eat you you face 2 distinct but equally terrible scenarios. Both of them could be summed up as "oh shit" but for arguments sake lets point them out. The first would be that you fall from the tree. So you started out moving at pretty high speeds and on top of that you are now no longer steampunkspidermaning around trees but to the ground. What sort of equipment could ever protect you from the fall? Would you even want to survive? Given the context of the series you would end up to messed up to continue a normal live or fall into a titan's hands. The other alternative would be that instead of steampunkspidermaning around stuff something goes wrong and you steampunkspiderman into stuff. Again, what sort of equipment protects you from that? Would you want to survive?

 

[epictoads]

Re: Attack on Logic

Why doesn't anyone wear a freaking helmet? Maybe not a titan-proof one, but those tile roofs in town don't look very soft.
They don't have the materials or tech to develop proper helmets like we have now (no shock-absorbing materials, plastics, or anything). Bikers don't just wear wooden bowls and that's about the best they could do. If you hit a wall with a solid wood or metal helmet it would have almost the same impact, it would only help against grinding your head against a wall or something. Plus it would be heavy, obstruct view, and not help much. Same with padding. Against Titans it wouldn't help much.


Why don't the humans live in reinforced underground bunkers? Or have an evacuation tunnel system of some sort with "ultra hardened steel" gates to keep out the 3-7 meter titans? Why don't the humans set up various sorts of traps? With a few notable exceptions the titans seem about as dopey as cows. I'm sure they could be lead off a cliff somewhere.
They have the walls. They have underground tunnels, but living underground would be pointless. If the walls fail, humanity dies, simple as. So having traps wouldn't save more than minutes. Plus Titans can regenerate or evaporate when dead. The walls are the only defense, if they fail, traps wont do much to save anyone. No matter how many traps you set it wont help, Titans are a force of nature and come in thousands. Sure a couple traps could stop a few but that wont help.And moats would be useless as well as Titans would probably walk through it, and you can't fight them underwater. Plus it would to be REALLY deep.


This one also touches on TESB, but why don't the soldiers use their zip lines to trip up the titans?
If you break your lines your 3DMG is useless and Titans can easily get back up. Plus again how do you use them? You need structures on ground level in the right positions which is rare to randomly have during battle. They had a plan to be in the forest to catch the female Titan and it took a LOT of lines. The only real way to trip them that fast is to cut the tendons in there legs.


Their other vulnerability is their height. If I were planning a city between two of those gates, I'd string taught cables at various heights between all the buildings. Perhaps they could be placed at regular intervals that actually help soldiers using 3DMG get around. What would be the point of that? It would get in the way of soldiers, people's daily lives, and an army Titans would be going at full force to get to people so would break through quickly. The special steel is hard to make and uses lot of resources.


So if a couple of Titans got through, traps and whatever would stop them, but if the walls go the Titans will get through anything with sheer numbers. Plus the traps would have to be everywhere otherwise they'd go past them. As I've said, walls are the only thing that stop them. So building traps or structures inside wouldn't do anything if they were broken, as humanity in that area would die anyway.

 

[kkck]

Re: Attack on Logic

As far as living underground goes I would argue the main issue is that not all titans are huge. If titans were all 15 meters tall then living underground would be a convenient septup however the smallest kind of titan are 3 meters tall. While smaller they are still well stronger than regular humans and killing them is a pain at large. Even if deep enough tunnels were enough to keep large titans out the smaller would be able to walk through tunnels.

 

[TitaNick]

Re: Attack on Logic

Ok, please listen. I didn't mean to piss people off by questioning the show.

I also think calling one of my questions "downright stupid" wasn't necessary. Maybe you don't understand how I don't see something that's obvious to you, and that's fine. Personally what I think is stupid is living in Bavarian-style row houses for a hundred years while towering killers gather outside. But I think the show has demonstrated that.

As to helmets, I know the real world reason they don't wear them: We the audience want to see their faces. It's an artistic choice and willing suspension of disbelief let's us overlook basic safety precautions. The same way we can accept that Levi can spin like Sonic the Hedgehog on a yoyo string without having to lie down and puke his guts out afterward. The inner ear doesn't work that way, no matter how much you practice.

But they could have helmets. Some folks said was that they don't have the technology, to which I say this. It's a steel bowl with a network of straps and padding inside. A culture that produces "ultra-hardened steel" and the 3DMG could easily make a metal hat that protects your noggin.

As to whether a helmet cuts down on vision and hearing, it won't if if it's well-designed. As to whether it would even be useful, as a former motorcyclist I know I'd be dead from smacking my head into a moving car in a parking lot if not for my helmet. Titans notwithstanding, the loss of a leg would have been the least of Eren's worries in reality when he wiped out in episode five. Luckily he's a cartoon character and could just shrug off plowing through all those roof tiles forehead first.

And back to my motorcyclist point, maybe they can get up to freeway speeds by swinging and jetting in the 3DMG, but I doubt they maintain it for long.

Regarding spiked landmines, I was imagining them working the same way as the grapples used against the female type titan. The more she regenerated the more trapped she became.

Regarding tripping them, anything at all would be useful.

As far as padding lowering maneuverability, we're not talking about a real system from the real world. But just a nod to some kind of protection. Padding would help if you crashed into a wall, or a tree branch, or the ground, or skidded along a cobblestone street or an open field on your butt (as many characters have).

Anyhow, I hope that clears my points up. I don't want to start an argument.

 

[epictoads]

Re: Attack on Logic

I'm not sure sure how effective a helmet would be if you hit a wall or tree at the speed they do. They would be solid metal with maybe some padding inside, not proper shock-absorbing material like bike helmets. If you had an M1 Helmet it would help against bullets and grazing for sure, but direct his with a wall would knock you out or kill you anyway. I'm also insure on what kind of padding would be used, they skid along surfaces all the time anyway and are fine. Padding wouldn't make much difference if they can already do that, especially at the speeds they zip around at.

Landmines wouldn't be effective either if the Titans came running in, you could take out a few small ones but if 1 mine takes out 1 small titan you would need thousands of them everywhere. If the wall broke, traps and mines would be pretty useless apart from help taking out the odd Titan (out of thousands storming in). Traps and mines simply wouldn't be effective or worth the difficulty.


The Before the Fall Manga series is supposed to explain how they first started developing weaponry if this kind of stuff honestly bugs you. Personally I don't see how how them having helmets or padding would make the series any more enjoyable to read/watch. It would probably take away from the style of it.

 

[Themistocles]

Re: Attack on Logic

Characters don't nee extra armor because as a rule of manga/anime determines that important characters are made of plot. Plot, as you may or may not know is actually the strongest force in all of manga/anime. Anything or anyone who is important to the progression of the plot (or relevant to the plot) is thus made of plot and thus cannot die or be harmed more than the plot allows.

Which is why no armor is needed because the main and importatn characters are made of plot: Eren, Mikasa, Armin, etc.

You may think I'm joking, but look at all the series and see that this is basically true for everything.
It explains otherwise unexplanable facts -> Eren gets a leg cut off and should have died from skimming that roof, but why didn't he? because he is made of plot.

 

[kkck]

Re: Attack on Logic

I get that a helmet can save your life in an accident but is that situation at all comparable to what the scouting legion would face here? Dunno, it just seems like actual body gear that would protect you from the sort of accident that steampunkspidermaning can result in is every bit as improbable as actually steampunkspidermaning. In hindsight perhaps that guy from the legion who got hit in the head by a falling rock could have been kinda saved had he been wearing a helmet but that is still not a common scenario here. From what I gather if steampunkspidermans don't have the implausible dexterity to avoid getting hit in normal situations then they are not qualified to be in any area of the military.... Dunno, based on the current context of the manga it does not seem like a helmet would make much of a difference. Unless we have reason to believe a helmet can make a difference when falling 15+ meters or such other situations which can arise from steampunkspidermaning.

 

[Demonspeed]

Re: Attack on Logic

@Themistocles: I don't think you should justify all that by plot armor. It makes things too easy. Actually, we are in the real world while SNK universe is a fictional. So, we have to find logical reasons which applies to that world and who'll explain why those events are possible in the SNK fictional world. It's for that reason that theories and stuff exist. It's as if you were saying titans are made of plot(technically their are drawn) but in SNK world they are living, they have flesh and blood and we have to think like that because it's a manga. If Eren survived, for me it's simply because he was durable enough.

Back to the topic now: I guess it's because they are trained to be able to move in the 3rd dimension, maybe they have helmets during their training. Since they should be used to the 3rd dimension after their training helmets are considered unnecessary. There is also the lack of funds, SC haven't enough money and a lot of soldiers die. They won't waste their budgets in helmets and stuff, the lack of soldiers is the reason why they are recruited young after all.

 

[tobirama]

Re: Attack on Logic

you forgot to mention using animals as communication devices
instead of smoke screens you'd simply write a note and the bird delivers it
less people would die and they'd have more time to prepare and evacuate people now having the information gives them ample minutes. (to set up traps)
how could the scouting region not think of this, what if all members die how'll any information be given to humanity
seems kinda stupid using messengers who could easily get killed
(titans dont attack animals)

 

[TheOwl]

Re: Attack on Logic

you forgot to mention using animals as communication devices
instead of smoke screens you'd simply write a note and the bird delivers it
less people would die and they'd have more time to prepare and evacuate people now having the information gives them ample minutes. (to set up traps)
how could the scouting region not think of this, what if all members die how'll any information be given to humanity
seems kinda stupid using messengers who could easily get killed
(titans dont attack animals)

You are right to some extent, but it depends on the animal truly. Dogs are smart enough to be trained to deliver messages in a moving army, but nonetheless they could be scared of titans and are not as fast as horses. Pigeons are not as smart, but they are faster. However they cannot be trained to deliver messages from a stronghold to a moving army (they can be trained to do the opposite though), much less from a part of a moving army to another.

I can't really think of other animals that were used for relaying messages unless you count crows, owls and ravens which are used to relay messages in certain work of fiction.

Characters don't nee extra armor because as a rule of manga/anime determines that important characters are made of plot. Plot, as you may or may not know is actually the strongest force in all of manga/anime. Anything or anyone who is important to the progression of the plot (or relevant to the plot) is thus made of plot and thus cannot die or be harmed more than the plot allows.

You are correct, but nonetheless a writer should make plot armor very subtle. By the way, I like your signature, although you should replace "gut" with "lecker" (which means tasty). Your signature makes sense, but "lecker" is more commonly used when referring to food.

 

[kannazuki]

Re: Attack on Logic

Personally I really only care about the traps and things that are not physically possible within the world's existing physical logic. I do think there should be more of those (primitive mines which can be well-marked because titans are mostly stupid, and also can be designed not to be trippable by humans... sinkholes, etc.). Also if one set of planners/engineers failed at the underground tunnel thing (like they have in Wall Sina), then at least see about getting someone else onto the job. That said, I know very well how easily people can get turned off/develop an aversion to something based on only a single setback. Unfortunate, but I'm sure you've all seen/experienced examples of that yourselves...

 

[epictoads]

Re: Attack on Logic

you forgot to mention using animals as communication devices
instead of smoke screens you'd simply write a note and the bird delivers it
less people would die and they'd have more time to prepare and evacuate people now having the information gives them ample minutes. (to set up traps)
how could the scouting region not think of this, what if all members die how'll any information be given to humanity
seems kinda stupid using messengers who could easily get killed
(titans dont attack animals)

Animals would not work, even if they did would be MUCH less efficient than smoke signals.
So you see a Deviant Titan running in the formation, you get own a notebook and quill/ink-pot (they didn't have pens back then) while on a horse, write a note, tie to a bird that's somehow on the horse, tell it to go to command, it then flies of, Irwin receives so many notes it takes a few minutes to read them all and see where they come from, then sends his bird out to deliver a note to everyone telling them to change coarse. Or just get out a black flare and fire it so everyone can see.

The only animal that could do it fast enough are birds and how do you keep them on horses? How does Iwrin receive all the notes constantly and compare where they're from before deciding where to go (with smoke he just looks up and see's what direction the smoke points in)? How do birds know where to go on the formation that is constantly moving? How do you have time to write notes/read them? How does Iwrin send a bird out to everyone telling them where to go? How do people on the formation know where Titans are if the signals can only communicate between Irwin and individual soldiers (if you're on the SC constantly look around to see if there are smoke signals). Plus birds can become injured, picked of by predators, and take a while to go across the formation whereas smoke is instant.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant but there's no way the SC could use birds or animals like that.

 

[Sigma]

Re: Attack on Logic

They don't breathe. I could also explain this, but I don't know at what point you are with the manga, and I don't want to spoil it.

Titans don't need to breathe but they are capable of doing so, otherwise they wouldn't be able to make the weird noises that they do and roar.