Discussion Po Bidau Gustang Thread

[Arjuna]

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This Thread is for discussing everything about Gustang.

 

[Zahard's Prophet]

What do you guys think Gustang's ultimate purpose in the Tower of God story will be?

He clearly seems opposed to Jahad. We see he's collecting the items intended to facilitate the King's downfall: Wangnan's ring, the device from the Hidden Floor that Data Jahad wanted to give Baam. This has even led to the extermination of his family being issued as a potentially executable Order by Jahad's imperial military. Adori is ominously reported as declaring that the army would commit itself to executing all three orders, has this been elaborated upon since?

He does not, however, seem to be aligned with Baam. As undoubtedly one of the most brilliant characters in the series and a being who has had thousands of years to perfect their nearly godlike strength and lay the architecture for his plot, does anyone have any theories about what he might be planning? My only conjecture is that he will almost certainly be foiled by Jahad's ability to see fate, despite assuredly being aware of it and somehow attempting to compensate through Baam in some way.

 

[shadow-v12]

What do you guys think Gustang's ultimate purpose in the Tower of God story will be?

He clearly seems opposed to Jahad. We see he's collecting the items intended to facilitate the King's downfall: Wangnan's ring, the device from the Hidden Floor that Data Jahad wanted to give Baam. This has even led to the extermination of his family being issued as a potentially executable Order by Jahad's imperial military. Adori is ominously reported as declaring that the army would commit itself to executing all three orders, has this been elaborated upon since?

He does not, however, seem to be aligned with Baam. As undoubtedly one of the most brilliant characters in the series and a being who has had thousands of years to perfect their nearly godlike strength and lay the architecture for his plot, does anyone have any theories about what he might be planning? My only conjecture is that he will almost certainly be foiled by Jahad's ability to see fate, despite assuredly being aware of it and somehow attempting to compensate through Baam in some way.

Actually he does since hes making sure baam receives the thorn fragments and only now making his moves now that baam has entered the game

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 29, 2020, Original Post Date: Mar 29, 2020 ---

Personally i think gustang has been preparing for his anti zahard crusade since what happened to Eurasia Enne (his daughter). Zahard gave her the colorless december which made her go crazy according to her profile and then locked her up. He clearly cares for his children since he went out of his way to protect garam who is merely his descendant unlike Enne who was really his daughter.

Gustang has his own plans going for him but at the same time he's putting his money on baam.

He also seems to have some sort of shadow alliance with headon that revolves around baam.

 

[Senoirmeow]

I don’t think it’s any grand plan or anything revolving around revenge.
I’m banking on it being something simple but important.
Knowledge.
He’s a scientist by nature and he probably wants to discover more of the tower, Zahard is stopping that by refusing to climb the tower any further so he’s probably going to use an Irregular like FUG wants to, in order to kill Zahard and achieve his goals so he might discover more about the tower one day, he also seems to have been a somewhat friend of Arlen and may have taken her side for this purpose also (or wanted to but found there was no one strong enough to kill Zahard at the time) so he remained out of the war.
He’s a smart guy if it’s only him, V, Arlen against the rest they won’t exactly win, why pick a fight you can’t win? Explains why he sent Baam to the hidden floor to get the bracelet and show Zahard a “new” adventure.

If you’re a scientist and someone has a key to a door with an entire new world behind it you’d want that key.

 

[Hussy1234]

I think there is alot going on. It's not just Bam vs Zahard. There is other faction too and Gustang is not in Bam or Zahard side. He is playing in third side. Gustang is very grey charcter and I think there is another faction who is playing dirty games behind the scenes.

I think we will have three major group clashes.
One is Zahard and his supporters like Ari and lo po bia, (villain side) then there will be Bam group and urek and maybe few great worrior like Eurasia blossom or yurin ha (somewhat good side people) . Then there will be third group of Gustang, work shop, Rachel (the shitty people)

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Gustang and Baam have the same motivations right now - I don't think Gustang is 'against' Baam at least for the time being. The story suggests he's helping Baam in a mutual sort of way. I wouldn't be surprised if he views him as another puppet. But I think there is some sort of alliance with FUG at some level, to include Headon and possibly other admin.

If Gustang is the 'villain' as has been described (I think it was said this was a mistranslation?) it will be to double-cross him at the finish line, not before then.

 

[Echizen_Akira]

Actually he does since hes making sure baam receives the thorn fragments and only now making his moves now that baam has entered the game

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 29, 2020, Original Post Date: Mar 29, 2020 ---

Personally i think gustang has been preparing for his anti zahard crusade since what happened to Eurasia Enne (his daughter). Zahard gave her the colorless december which made her go crazy according to her profile and then locked her up. He clearly cares for his children since he went out of his way to protect garam who is merely his descendant unlike Enne who was really his daughter.

Gustang has his own plans going for him but at the same time he's putting his money on baam.

He also seems to have some sort of shadow alliance with headon that revolves around baam.

Garam is Gustang's descendent?

 

[shadow-v12]

Garam is Gustang's descendent?

Yeah why else would Gustang help her?

 

[taetaetr]

I think Gustang is playing his own game here. He doesn't strike me as someone who would fight for revenge even for his own daughter , but more about progress, entertainments, or to makes up with Blossom. I think it will be interesting if he did all this just for him to win her over once more. After all he is an intelligent man with refine taste and love for loli.​

Zahard may be a leader of his gang, but judging from their interaction in hidden floor, i think each fh acts according to thier own interest than just kowtow and follows his lead. They may get along when their interst align but won't shy to clash when they aren't, that was the impression they gave me. And about Jahad's ability to see fate, who know if he is the only one in possion of it, at least Gustang himself confirm that Arlene also has an ability to temper with fate, and i think Kelhellam once said that they all have that kind of ability.​

 

[Echizen_Akira]

Yeah why else would Gustang help her?

She was Enne's friend.
She possessed Arlene's pocket.
She knows the truth about Jahad.
She has 2 of the 13th months.
An enemy of Jahad is a friend of his.
He thought she'd make a useful pawn.
Solely as an F U to Jahad, Saving a traitor princess.
Headon told him to.

 

[shadow-v12]

She was Enne's friend.
She possessed Arlene's pocket.
She knows the truth about Jahad.
She has 2 of the 13th months.
An enemy of Jahad is a friend of his.
He thought she'd make a useful pawn.
Solely as an F U to Jahad, Saving a traitor princess.
Headon told him to.

Well maybe but remember gustang has shown to actually care for her baam asked gustang to free the ppl of the floor of death but he turned him down and mentioned it putting garam in harms way so it just fits that she's from his family

 

[toil]

No basis for this beyond intuition but I think Gustang's motivation will have something to do with leaving the tower (or "the outside world", in some broader sense). Presumably there's something he wants to do (leave tower?), he can't do it because of Zahard, and that's why he's gone anti-Zahard.

To clarify, this motivation is intended to be in contrast to "b/c of Enne", "b/c he wants to be king", "b/c he dislikes Zahard", and so on—those could be parts of the reason but not the reason, is my feeling.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Working theory on Gustang's trump card(s).
=================================

Gustang feels confident he can take on Zahard and all oncomers as well (those aligned with Zahard, to include other FH's and their GF's). He is not stupid (quite the opposite). He doesn't seem to be suicidal. He weighs every calculus. What underpins that confidence? Zahard is the strongest being in the tower that is in active (Urek being neutral, lazy), is untouchable and invulnerable, has the most HRs to defend him, and commands the biggest/strongest army in the tower. That doesn't seem like something Gustang is cut out for on his lonesome.

While he assuredly has alliances that will help (speculation below), they are iffy at best (again, as of now), subject to change, not exclusive, and as of yet seem to be operating low-key and haven't been made public. It, so far, looks like Gustang fighting the empire alone.

So, what does the smartest man in the tower do? What does he have at his disposal? He's obviously like Aizen (same glasses and haircut and unexpecting demeanor even, yet he pulls a similar stunt in acquiring tech to overthrow the status quo, to the shock of the hierarchy that never saw the betrayal coming) x Batman (he plans well ahead and has multiple contingencies and weapons for every scenario), so he has a plan; he's crunched the numbers and thinks he can come out on top. It started when Baam entered the tower (with Rachel too, sigh)... Well, technically it started before then because he had to orchestrate shit out well in advance with the understanding that at least Baam would show up eventually.

Allies/Tech (known and confirmed in various stages)

- Baam: the most obvious, pivotal part of Gustang's plan and the story's main MC (so arguably the most important as well). He's an irregular free from the contracts of other irregulars, and as such can kill Zahard (like Urek and Enryu). He's immature in more ways than one, and will take time to fully power up. He's also unpredictable, but Gustang has his money on Baam. How much? He's all in. One of the most important resources, arguably THE most important weapon in the tower, the thorn, is being stuffed into little Baam and Gustang is playing his part in making sure Baam gets it all (not what you'd do to an enemy at all). He's aligned with Baam in the sense that they both have something against Zahard and/or empire at large (and thus Zahard by extension), and has made sure Baam is progressing without placing hurdles in front of him. Gustang has had multiple efforts that we know of (probably a few more we don't) to stop Baam, personally, even kill him, and he hasn't. Instead, he helps arm him, which is not what an enemy or 'villain' would do. He also tells Baam to his face he sees him as a peer due to coming from outside the tower. Again, unlike a villain to Baam. While he might not care about Baam's well-being specifically as an individual, he doesn't seem any part hostile towards him at all. And he could be using Baam to soften up the Z-army and even as the killing weapon to complete his plan, but at least for now that means Baam stays alive and well, and continues to grow and get empowered and armed. As of right now he is Baam's ally and benefactor of sorts. This is subject to change of course.

- Rachel: ugh. What can be said about her that hasn't already? Technically an irregular (though you can't tell by looking), so she too could be remade into a weapon. She's already operating/operated as a pawn for Gustang, as well as at least one other person or organization that Gustang is conspiring with, so she has some limited use at least. Is that use over with? A lot here speculate Gustang will grant her wishes that in turn will keep her useful for Gustang himself, under the guise of giving her what she asked for. I have seen at least one person speculate Gustang could be putting the thorn in Baam for immediate safekeeping, with the backup of snatching it and arming Rachel to do his dirty work if Baam declines to keep working with him. We'll see.

- The thorn: Gustang is aware of at least two separate shards of it, possibly and probably even more (if not the whole thing). Both times he watched carefully to see that Baam was the recipient. He knows its value clearly, and what it can do, as he is one of the few to know the contents of Arlen's journal, and more than likely knows even more than that about its functions. Its value in the hands of an irregular specifically is already addressed with Baam and Rachel above, but could he also theoretically wield it? Seeing as it is going precisely where he wills it, Baam, and he has tabs on its wielder at all times, you could make the argument that it is likewise in his possession.

- GongBang: And Macseth by extension. Gustang is already said to "get together and exchange stories" with Macseth, or so the rumor goes per SIU (which is probably said because it's true). As such, they probably do conspire a bit and possibly share a similar outlook or goal. They are the lead scientists/brains in the whole tower so of course the two compare notes and share data. Gustang eats this up as GB knows enough to possibly be equipped to overcome a contract with an admin, or even the admin themselves. For instance, GB produced a serum to separate the thryssa - this strongly suggests a history of experimenting on/with thryssa and maybe even admin themselves (what was left on FoD most definitely at least). There's also the data-erasing pill and countless other tech that they've produced of varying exotic functions. The problem is GB has to appear neutral, and is obviously willing to sell their wares and weapons to the highest bidders. They have also worked with FUG, Rei, Yas, random parties wishing to experiment, Zahard's empire, anyone really. They are basically arms dealers open to accepting bids any time. And they have a good thing going, so far as we know, with Zahard being in control and allowing their autonomy. Flux, a creation of Macseth, is one of the 3 Lords operating as COO of the tower at any given time under Zahard's orders.

- The unknown person off-screen: floated are Headon (my personal pick), Macseth (my no. 2), Enryu (meh), and Arlen (wild card). Possibly someone else, but seeing as Gustang is a supremacist it has to be someone he would 'report' to as an equal or even greater. Those above are the few that are known to qualify as Headon, while not being an irregular, is a 'god' in the tower. Arlen (if still alive - in the tower or not) is of course his waifu of sorts, and a contemporary. Macseth, also not an irregular, is immensely powerful and connected, and a fellow scientist that helped him climb and preceded his arrival in the tower. Enryu be Enryu. I think it is Headon however as Gustang comments that Rachel is the pawn of this person/entity, and we know for a fact that Headon is using Rachel as his pawn from 1F, the others are wildly speculative and would require an entirely third party ALSO using Rachel as a pawn, which isn't impossible as she likes to spread her... um, pawnness around. Headon at least, the front-runner, puts on appearances he is not actively working against Zahard and only operates in the manner to select individuals to start climbing. Pretense if you ask me.

- The silver bracelet: function currently unknown of course. Probably a product of GongBang, as are most items of importance. Obviously something Zahard is concerned with to the point he hid it where he believes his contemporary irregulars and present enemies cannot go (falling victim to the concept they could use others to do so for them) for safekeeping in perpetuity. It seems to have more than just a sentimental value to Zahard. It's so important that the mere thought of Gustang trying to get it from under Zahard's nose is enough for Zahard to order the entire Po Bidau family eradicated - it's that big a deal. This, to me, approaches thorn level of importance if that is the case. If I had to guess I'd say it is probably tied to the king contract, or maybe the immortality component contract - Zahard's version. Maybe it gives the wearer contract-breaking abilities (it is used to cast spells?). Who knows, but it will play an important role for sure.

- Urek/Wingtree: not an 'ally' per se, but he is certainly important that Gustang is able to correctly gauge their level of interest in being involved in the big picture moving forward. As Urek is a wild card and could derail his operations, confirming personally that Urek doesn't plan on getting involved is important enough to be considered a feather in Gustang's cap. Sidelining WingTree means less can go sideways for Gustang's plans, as he has almost everything else in place apparently. It is also good for him to know that Urek is soft on and partial to Baam, who Gustang has positive ties with. This further protects his investment in Baam if Baam has a Urek checking in on his progress and assuring his safety as well.

Allies (speculated):

- FUG: This one speaks for itself - their current goals are similar enough to be considered arms-length allies, for the time being at least. Gustang already works around FUG members several times already, and at least goes to lengths not to squash them (as instructed by Z empire), showing respect and a willingness to work together. I suspect Gustang has already had talks of cooperation with Luslec as well, both being the leaders of organizations/families now opposing Zahard openly.

- Other FHs: This one is obvious as well. Anyone too meek or lazy or outclassed to vocally oppose Zahard all this time might join in if Gustang leads the way, particularly if he has a good plan or trump card. Blossom is suspected highly of defecting, and there's that entire thread devoted to who might join, so no point rehashing here. Rei's recent comments about the Zoom call over what to do with Baam indicate there's going to be a further split, yet again, so this is not likely to remain in the realm of speculation moving forward.

- Enne: this one is obvious for all the obvious reasons. She could stall even some of the strongest in the tower if sprung from prison, maybe even negate Adori's role in things. She has an obvious beef with Zahard so will be of great help. Arguable if she could take on some of the weaker FHs (I think so, stopping short of killing them obviously), but that divide narrows if Gustang has something to take them down a notch such as Baam or the bracelet or whatever he has in mind. I doubt her story was brought up just to leave her stuck in a cage until the main storyline is resolved, so I fully expect to see her in action.

- The Zahard Clones: up to and including the Captain (if the Captain isn't already Luslec, see thread). Gustang was associated with princesses and their genetic manipulations, so chances are high he's also the point man/lead on the prince/clone program as well. Who else would it be? As such, he might be the reason why every clone we know of (so far 4 it seems) want to kill Zahard. Or at least the later ones (Karaka and Wangnan). Who knows how many others might exist, but Gustang probably had a hand in taking the youngest ones out of cryo at least, raising them up to kill their 'father'. At least the senior clones appear to be very powerful, if not Karaka and whatever Wangnan is.

- Princesses, all (override edition): he started the princess program ffs An override option in advance is just the smart thing to do. We know Zahard can mind control those with his blood in them, the princesses, so I wouldn't put it past Gustang to introduce a chip implant or spell or something to be able to use that same ability, possibly overriding or subverting that function for his own purposes. Heavy speculation by me.

- Parakewl: we haven't seen god-emperor Parakewl in a while (or his alias, Phanta), but Gustang would be a fool not to be courting his help off-screen. This alliance alone would turn the tides against Zahard.

The Army Issue (heavy speculation):

So what does the Po Bidau clan personally bring? None of the above, save the iffy alliances with other Great Families and/or FUG (and their armies by extension) can account for the war of attrition against the Z-army (said to be the largest and most-successful and powerful/well-armed) and the allied FH's and their associated armies. Gustang might have as big an army as the next FH, but he certainly doesn't outnumber them by leaps and bounds. It is confirmed that he does not have more offspring than either Eduan or Bloodmadder for instance, possibly other GFs as well. And his army/family is probably outclassed and dwarfed by Zahard's army alone, who not only has princesses and all they command but takes HRs from other families as well to bolster the ranks. Gustang cannot compete in terms of raw numbers... or so it seems. We've seen inside his capital ship - not a ton of people (presumably many more in other rooms and floor of the ship of course). And yet he's confident with his own success, how?

Possible solutions all revolve around a mass-produced army at his command (because of course):

- zombie army: Gustang, as the other irregulars, has access to spells. A spell would be needed to raise the dead as such. We see a similar situation on FoD that Gustang probably has a hand in. Being in charge and having access to FoD, unlike the other FH's' and even Zahard it seems, he would have ample opportunity to research spells and/or means to raise the dead on other floors, possibly giving him a strong zombie army to command without concern for their well-fare being that they can't die. There have been countless strong entities in the tower that would serve as powerful undead/undying soldiers.

- ghost/soul army: similar to the solution above, zombies, a ghost army would be difficult to fight against and give Gustang great numbers. Maybe he can even empty the FoD residents, and he was saving them for the time to strike against Zahard. He is the caretaker of the floor, and the souls there by extension, and can effortlessly control and transport souls there so he would certainly have more experience than most others in the tower when it comes to such things as souls/ghosts.

- android/robot army: more likely that the first two as it fits better into Gustang's 'scientist' persona and less in the warlock/black magic that would take to operate a ghost or zombie army as a necromancer of sorts (that's possibly more of an Arlen thing?). Although his research on Arlen might give him the knowledge, he seems more like a classical scientist with creations out of a classical lab setting. He networks with GongBang already, and could just reverse engineer their creations if he had access to one, perhaps with Macseth's help. Or develop the tech on his own, why not, as he's a capable scientist. We already know that Macseth can create beings, and there are the new 4th corps divcos that are creations that bend the rules of the tower, and now we even know that Yas himself had access to a HR-level (first divco) android in Fucile. Whether normal soldiers enhanced with cybernetics or full-on head-to-toe robots doesn't matter, the point remains they could be mass-produced, and if the 4th and 5th divcos are any indication they can be made extremely strong and durable enough to be on par with stronger HRs. Presumably, even high-level HR is within reach. Imagine an army of Fucile's.

- clone/mutant army: similar to the above, a totally 'scientist' thing to do. Gustang has undoubtedly had access to the best blood in the tower, up to and including Zahards. He could make super clones, ready to release at his notice (think the Kaminoans making a clone army in the Star Wars universe). He could mix in Native One blood. Is that what those two bird-like giants are in his capital ship? Hell, they certainly aren't humans or your standard sons and daughters of an irregular. The sky is the limit here and I wouldn't put it past him at all to have armies of super-powered mutants/clones placed throughout the tower. It's like Aizen with the Vizord.

- shinsoo-boosted troops: regardless of the troop types, it is said Gustang's type of WC abilities are best-suited in a support function, so he could take any of the above (or other) troops and give them a perma-buff from his own WC powers. This would be smart to do well in advance and not in the heat of the battle. I could see Gustang secretly charging up troops for centuries, among other buffs at his disposal (tech, bio, spells). Gustang's troops would of course have every boost that can be shoehorned into their goody-bags.

- an army of firefish, Eagle Owls, or fiery eagle-owl-fish hybrids: enough said. I could have just avoided another wall of text and mentioned these god-like beings instead.

 

[Fiodor Pavlovich K]

Working theory on Gustang's trump card(s).

Allies/Tech (known and confirmed in various stages)

- Baam: ... He's immature in more ways than one, and will take time to fully power up. He's also unpredictable, but Gustang has his money on Baam. How much? He's all in. ...

- Rachel: ... I have seen at least one person speculate Gustang could be putting the thorn in Baam for immediate safekeeping, with the backup of snatching it and arming Rachel to do his dirty work if Baam declines to keep working with him. We'll see.

- GongBang: ...

- The unknown person off-screen: floated are Headon (my personal pick), Macseth (my no. 2), Enryu (meh), and Arlen (wild card).

Had a good time reading

(1) Not sure of he is all in on Baam. The issue I have with this is... for someone that relies on Baam, Gustang sure let him take some serious risks. We know Baam wont get killed because plot armor (I mean Zahard kind of killed him again?). Unless there is some regular on team Baam working closely with Gustang giving information/protection, I won't buy this. To me Baam is a very important part of Gustang's plan, but not everything.

(2) Rachel has to play an important hole in the story right? But I don't think it involves taking down Zahard. At least not by overpowering him. I have no idea what SIU is planning to do with Rachel though.

(3) GongBang, The silver bracelet and other objects/weapons will definitely be important on Gustang's plan. The way I see it, regulars can contribute much more with knowledge and science than with anything else. Also, it would make sense for very smart regulars to not want to be ruled by irregulars, right? We already know items can affect irregulars like Urek and weapons/robots can get crazy strong, so that is IMO the most promising way to make regulars relevant.

Allies (speculated):

- Enne: ...

(4) I think you nailed everything. Enne to me seems more like a motivation than an actual ally to Gustang. Maybe it is one of his objectives releasing her. But who knows, Gustang seems to be completely devoid of emotions, maybe he doesn't care in the slightest about her.

The Army Issue (heavy speculation):

So what does the Po Bidau clan personally bring? None of the above, save the iffy alliances with other Great Families and/or FUG (and their armies by extension) can account for the war of attrition against the Z-army (said to be the largest and most-successful and powerful/well-armed) and the allied FH's and their associated armies.

(5) I'm under the impression that armies are useless because an Irregular would be able to destroy an unlimited # of HRs. I guess we will know for sure in a few chapters.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Had a good time reading

(1) Not sure of he is all in on Baam. The issue I have with this is... for someone that relies on Baam, Gustang sure let him take some serious risks. We know Baam wont get killed because plot armor (I mean Zahard kind of killed him again?). Unless there is some regular on team Baam working closely with Gustang giving information/protection, I won't buy this. To me Baam is a very important part of Gustang's plan, but not everything.

Well, I think Baam is one of many layers of contingency plans he has in place at any time. For instance, Gustang sent Baam to acquire the bracelet, but then ALSO sent Rachel with the treasure-seeking Ray. Maybe he knew Baam wasn't enough, or thought there needed to be a backup plan, or knew it would take Baam distracting for Rachel Ray to come in and snatch the bracelet (so, effectively it would take both), or he's just hedging his bets.

I agree Gustang isn't aware of Baam's plot armor like we are, BUT he kind of is. Not in any 'breaking the fourth wall' way, but because he knows who Baam is - the child of prophecy. If he's hitched his wagon to that prophecy as, well, prophetic (and thus true), then he knows Baam's outcome will be inevitable. IOW, Baam is not going to die, lest the prophecy fail. I think he's kind of counting on it to be true, and Baam would have 'real-world' plot armor in Gustang's world and views. But, I could be wrong there.

What is true is that he's allowing and aiding Baam to acquire thorn pieces. The thorn is too important, as is Baam really, to fall in the wrong hands or out of reach. And yet he gives Baam latitude to almost die like you point out. Is Gustang confident that a second-thorn-fragment Baam would get activated in the event of near-death, so he's not really worried as he knew he would be beamed out anyways? Maybe.

It's kind of like: "are you not the messiah?" in regards to Baam. If he is, he'll not die. If he dies, he's not the messiah. Sink or swim, simple.

We already know Gustang knows (he's one of only a handful) Arlen's/the-god-of-the-outside's prophecy regarding Baam, and has identified Baam as her son, and thus the one Arlen spoke about... but does he buy into it?

As far is does Gustang have eyes on Baam, that has to be a given. He knew what was going on behind the scenes on 30F before even Baam did, or the rest of FUG present for that matter. He knew if/when Baam would make it to FoD, and when he and Rachel got out, etc. There's almost no chance he doesn't have someone on the inside, or even someone on the outside (like how Urek told Yuje to have someone tail Baam, in order to know what's up with him) watching Baam's every move. He could be working with the Captain, who certainly has this level of intel, or even Headon who seems to know all. Baam is an asset, and he's got more thorn than ever, so I can't imagine a scenario where Gustang doesn't know the biggest asset in the tower to be able to kill Zahard is at all time.

Regardless, Gustang has backup after backup I'm sure.

(2) Rachel has to play an important hole in the story right? But I don't think it involves taking down Zahard. At least not by overpowering him. I have no idea what SIU is planning to do with Rachel though.

One of those backups being Rachel. Not sure either, but maybe he can just have her melted with the thorn if Baam fails (we know he won't). Or wear her like a glove (a fitting end) when fighting Zahard, idk.

(3) GongBang, The silver bracelet and other objects/weapons will definitely be important on Gustang's plan. The way I see it, regulars can contribute much more with knowledge and science than with anything else. Also, it would make sense for very smart regulars to not want to be ruled by irregulars, right? We already know items can affect irregulars like Urek and weapons/robots can get crazy strong, so that is IMO the most promising way to make regulars relevant.

Agreed. I'm assuming you mean 'tower-born' when you say 'regular' though. As opposed to their rank.

(4) I think you nailed everything. Enne to me seems more like a motivation than an actual ally to Gustang. Maybe it is one of his objectives releasing her. But who knows, Gustang seems to be completely devoid of emotions, maybe he doesn't care in the slightest about her.

True, but she's an asset for those against Zahard, and an important one. If not Gustang, maybe Baam or his team will get her out and she'll perform all the same.

(5) I'm under the impression that armies are useless because an Irregular would be able to destroy an unlimited # of HRs. I guess we will know for sure in a few chapters.

Maybe. But Gustang can't be everywhere at once. There are always the super-high-tier HR's in each family that while they can't take on a FH can be destructive to Gustang's forces, family, or ships. So, he's got to have some plan to deal the the numbers, right?

 

[Pro Factor]

I agree that prophecy gives some kind of plot armor to Bam and that Gustang is all in on Bam due to prophecy,but problem with that is…if he truly believes that prophecy will come true he might as well not do anything and just sit at home chilling,eventually prophecy will come true and Bam will slitth Zahard throat,the fact that Gustang is taking actions tho probably has to do with a fact that je wants to achieve something else along the way. In the end Zahard is just a obstacle to the ultimate goal which is to climb the tower. Maybe Gustang was one of those who wanted to continue climbing,but knew that Arlene and V plan would just lead them to deaths and had some sort of a fight with V. Decided to wait for a better moment and bracelet is one part of the key to open next floor. Who knows.

 

[Demonspeed]

I think a lot of you have a too good opinion of Gustang. I don't see how Baam and Rachel are allies? He just used them to get what he wanted. Maybe that 3rd Wish of Rachel could make her an ally or something but we don't know what it is.

Sure, he has some plans but to me it seems that you guys's expectations are too much because of the FH hype. Gustang doesn't seem to work with a group in particular(besides his family) but with specific persons to get what he wants. In the story, I'd say the only person which could be considered his ally so far is Garam.

Clearly he must have allies within the Workshop as well but that's it.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

I agree that prophecy gives some kind of plot armor to Bam and that Gustang is all in on Bam due to prophecy,but problem with that is…if he truly believes that prophecy will come true he might as well not do anything and just sit at home chilling,eventually prophecy will come true and Bam will slitth Zahard throat,

It's kind of difficult, right? I mean, this is the crux of *any* story with a prophetic figure, or messianic one. If they are who they claim to be, they will win out or so you'd think. And yet, they get assists all the time, right? They usually have a posse helping out, which actions are necessary for the messiah-figure to 'win out'... perhaps that assistance is also part of fate, or perhaps the prophetic figure will just find another way, but it appears they don't have any other options outside-looking-in without the assist. Things get messy with talk of fate and predetermination and all. Best chalk it up to Gustang at least *knows* of the prphecy and we can't assume he's a believer, but at least he is willing to give it a shot as Baam's fate could help, not hurt, his goals, and if he can co-opt Baam's outcome he too can take part in Baam's success as his own. I mean, if he's not a believer he's certainly talking (to Baam, acknowledging who he is and telling him he's waited for him, no different than any messiah is waited on) and acting (helping Baam) like a believer. IDK

the fact that Gustang is taking actions tho probably has to do with a fact that je wants to achieve something else along the way.

This is definitely a given. Of course Gustang has a plan and goal in mind that best suits his own interests. Baam can be a part of that plan up to the end, until he isn't, or until their interests depart (if they do).

Side note, and I'm not referring to you personally (but others in the chapter discussions), but I don't get the constant need to point out that Gustang is working towards his own goals - well, no shit, you don't say! Everyone in and out of the tower is. Everyone IRL is. Even if one gives their time and money charitably, that is because they want to be seen as charitable by others and/or themselves (they like the feeling of giving, or doing something useful). It's absurd to single Gustang out as 'up to something' when practically every character in the tower has some agenda going on at any given time. Even Baam. He is selfishly looking to complete his own goals - save Jinsung, get stronger, finish climbing, maybe fulfill his role in the fated destiny, possibly get retribution for what happened to his parents, previously track down Rachel, etc etc. And those goals of his overlap with FUGs, great, at least for the time-being. Baam can use FUG and vice-versa. And Baam can even co-opt and remake FUG. What if FUG doesn't want that, or has elements with other plans in mind? Well, that doesn't matter of course because Baam is the fucking MC and his own personal goals are all that matters - no concern what others want or their fates for Baam to get them lol. It's only sus if Gustang is working towards another goal then? The only difference is Baam is super-transparent and Gustang holds his cards closer to his chest. Planning ahead without giving away your entire strategy for all to see doesn't make him a villain, any more than Baam is a villain for the deaths he creates in his personal pursuits - at least in tower eithics.

In the end Zahard is just a obstacle to the ultimate goal which is to climb the tower. Maybe Gustang was one of those who wanted to continue climbing,but knew that Arlene and V plan would just lead them to deaths and had some sort of a fight with V. Decided to wait for a better moment and bracelet is one part of the key to open next floor. Who knows.

It's hard to speculate because that's all we can do at this point about end-game. No one knows the end game of Baam, the tower, Zahard, or how Gustang and others fit into that. All we can do is know for sure that right now, Baam and Gustang certainly are sharing a similar goal, and working together for mutual interests, certainly are not overtly working against each other. That is, as anything, subject to change of course. No one would put it past Gustang to change the deal or back-stab later. But at present rate that's not the case at all, rather the opposite - cooperation and mutual aid.

That said, I'm not sure Gustang desires to screw over Baam at all, ever. I'm just not convinced. Gustang could curb-stomp Baam MULTIPLE times over, he's had ample opportunity. He could have taken the thorn fragments for himself, easily, at several points. Baam's friends are certainly nothing to Gustang personally, and he lets them pass. Sure, they are useful to him, but Gustang is also polite to Baam as an individual (at the very least he's trying the 'you get more flies with honey' approach). You have to understand Gustang is really, truly a supremacist, and Baam is seen as one of his own. Supremacists, as bad as they are IRL, do not classically move to screw over ones they deem as their own right from the start. Gustang screwing over and using countless tower-born is a given, but he has a different attitude towards irregulars entirely. It is not inherently hostile, PARTICULARLY Baam.

Why Baam? Why not Rachel (who is also an irregular, but still seen as a bug)? Well, Gustang knows WHO Baam is (he probably knows from Headon that Rachel isn't a 'true' irregular, while she gets to have that status undeservingly). Gustang is a Arlen stan after all. He doesn't want her legacy tarnished any more than FUG or Enryu do, or so it seems. Killing her child (again) or shitting on him certainly would do that. It would also shit on the prophecy and desires of someone he is bonded to (Arlen), even if from their past time together. A lot can be said about the OG13 not caring about anyone or even their own kids, but they have been shown to certainly care about how they are perceived by the other irregulars at least. Baam is Arlen's legacy. Gustang tells Baam he was indeed waiting for him.

Gustang's plans also did not start until Baam entered the tower. It is not a coincidence that for thousands of years he laid in wait, and just now that Baam enters and is active, NOW arbitrarily Gustang decides to start making big moves to the point of grabbing the bracelet and preemptively declaring war on Zahard? That is CLEARLY tied to Baam, who he specifically said he waited for.

--- Double Post Merged, May 4, 2022, Original Post Date: May 4, 2022 ---

I don't see how Baam and Rachel are allies?

And how are they not? In both cases, Gustang is working with an irregular (a big deal, an asset that even Rei makes a point to say he wants to tie to him, at least in Baam's case) and those same irregulars are working with him. Sure, Gustang is the instigator and has something he specifically needs, but that is not without giving in return. There is very much a mutual exchange going on here where both parties benefit. And in working with Gustang, both parties are growing and becoming empowered (or so we think is happening with Rachel) to further achieve their own personal goals. Gustang has succeeded where Rei is currently failing to gain Baam's trust, favor, and assistance. Baam certainly sees benefit in working with Gustang, and shows no sign that he is just pretending to get along with him. At least from Baam's perspective, Gustang is an ally of sorts. He's certainly not an enemy.

Both parties (Baam and Rachel, Gustang) are associated with FUG at varying levels. Both are working towards Vanquishing Zahard (Rachel HAS to do this if she intends to keep climbing and/or see the stars, and she also wants to get the glory).

They are doing mutual favors and have overlapping interests. There is not a (current) hint of any funny business, anything untoward, anything hostile, anything that would stifle growth or goals... I mean, that's an alliance of sorts by any other name.

An 'alliance of convenience' is still an alliance all the same.

An alliance does not have to be made up by people that share the same power or status. There can be a discrepancy and still be an alliance. The US is 'allied' with much smaller countries, serving their own interests, that have an overlapping interest with the US who acts as their benefactor (arming, sharing intel, sending funds, training, etc). The US even bullies some countries into compliance, or at least has historically. It's not like an alliance has to be made by those sharing the exact same interests or end goals, or benefiting from the arrangement equally. It also does not have to be explicitly stated or spelled out. Sometimes they just end up being like that without ever stating that's what's happening, kind of like some of those in Baam's circle. They don't have to explicitly state: "I am aligning with your interests and as such support you as an ally, Baam" - they just kind of end up working together as allies. No requirement to 'put a label on it' at all.

I mean if I agreed with my neighbor that we both want a fence (but my house is much larger and more opulent), and I gave him beer that cost me next to nothing while he dug the trenches and did all the construction, we are both getting something out of it and also working towards the same goal, a fence. Our goals are aligned, thus we are in an alliance of sorts (we don't even have to officially state it or have a notary come down and put it to paper!). I don't even have to like him or think he's very smart, and could look down on him with a smug attitude in my white castle, and we could STILL be working in mutual cooperation. Deposing Zahard (or getting the powers to do so) = the fence being erected.

He just used them to get what he wanted.

As did they in return - it was very mutual and agreeable for both parties. Both benefited. Greatly.

But, that's not just ALL when it comes to Baam for Gustang, because he has been watching over Baam to see how he does with the thorn before Baam was even aware. That's not some exchange, that's interest. It clearly benefits Gustang's interests for Baam to get armed with the most powerful weapon in the tower, something he wouldn't want in the hands of a nobody to him, certainly not an enemy or someone he thinks would lose it or not use its potential. That is not something you'd want an enemy to have. Not even something you'd want to waste on someone you are ambivalent about. Or something to waste on a gambit you don't think will pan out. That is a calculated move that is working out just fine for BOTH Gustang and Baam, even without the later's knowledge. That is giving an alliance member the nukes to use on your mutual nemesis. That's not a one-and-done play without significance.

Maybe that 3rd Wish of Rachel could make her an ally or something but we don't know what it is.

I mean, sure? We don't know Rachel's fate, but we know she's a puppet on the strings for AT LEAST one other individual, who just so happens to be ALSO working with Gustang. Why would Gustang cut ties with an asset, an irregular, and someone that has proven historically willing to cooperate? Rachel is tied to Gustang at least until shown otherwise - that is still her current status as of this moment. But, even if Gustang sets her loose into the world, she is still working for Headon as far as we know. Her goals are not completed, and they are tied to her fulfilling Headon's plans for her in that mutual exchange (both getting what they desire). And there is very strong evidence that Headon is the one working with Gustang, so Gustang in that case would at least be working with someone that uses Rachel as an asset, making her indirectly still beneficial to him, and still allied in a way as well as an asset of a allied member.

Sure, he has some plans but to me it seems that you guys's expectations are too much because of the FH hype.

I don't understand this at all. The FH's aren't being hyped arbitrarily by fans (in fact you seem to agree with those that think they are god-like and untouchable). The actual story itself and SIU's own words do that - and in particular Gustang is singled out as one of the most important in the grand scheme of things, literally, by SIU.

- Gustang, who has been described as a "mastermind" and "smartest man in the tower" by SIU. That's not insignificant, if the smartest person is orchestrating events, as we clearly see play out. Putting money on Gustang is the smart bet, not a long-shot gamble based on head-canon hype.

- Gustang, who has his hands over EVERYTHING that's important in the series, from directly overseeing and aiding the growth and arming of the MC with the most-pivotal weapon, to the events on FoD, to acquiring something Zahard REALLY doesn't want him to have, to being the only one to openly declare war on empire (so far), to networking with the most advanced arms dealers in the tower, to even probably working with the entity described as "the true god of the tower" - SIU said Gustang is "extremely influential to the whole story" - that's not an insignificant role or inflated head-canon or baseless hype, that's precisely what we are supposed to expect - and see - from Gustang. SIU cannot be any more clear to expect A LOT from Gustang. We don't see Han at every step of the way, tied to every event, we see Gustang. It's not Tuperie with the balls to roll on Zahard's castle, it's Gustang. Hana didn't make moves to get the super-bracelet, Gustang did. Bloodmadder isn't controlling an off-limits floor, Gustang is. Blossom isn't there every time Baam gets the uber-powerful thorn needed to kill Zahard... you guessed it - Gustang. etc etc.

I mean, the next most-visible FH in the story so far now is Rei (besides the big bad of course). We're obviously soon going to see the outcome of the clash between the two (Gustang and Rei), but as it goes this is the 'tale of tape':

- Gustang is successful in every endeavor, well-planned in advance, arriving to strike preemptively without Rei even having a clue, compared to
- Rei has shown to be generally unaware and removed from events, working from behind, reactionary and unsuccessful where it comes goals so far (retain the hostage, keep Leviathan locked up, secure the irregular, force servitude of Baam, don't assplode crystal suspendium treasure-chest, underlings successful in battle, protect his back/capital ship, etc). And while a lot of that is less his personal performance as an individual, it is still a personal failure to delegate incorrectly, or put trust in those that can't perform as expected, or plan accordingly, or having the right intel to work with.

Rei can undoubtedly hit hard as a FH (then again so can Gustang), but he's being absolutely clowned in comparison to Gustang intellectually, which matters just as much as outright power, if not more so at this level.

All that comparo to say that Gustang clearly has his act together, and any expectations here by me are entirely supported by past and present performance - I'm just assuming further success seems likely at present rate. Not like we're seeing from Rei (or even in the flashback really... he couldn't even retain the loyalty of his pets or keep the Acrinak that was clearly important, or tame the Leviathan for that matter - he's generally shown to be arrogant without having the successes to back that up)

Gustang doesn't seem to work with a group in particular(besides his family) but with specific persons to get what he wants. In the story, I'd say the only person which could be considered his ally so far is Garam.

Clearly he must have allies within the Workshop as well but that's it.

We KNOW the FHs are fracturing, yet again, as they did in the past - this has been confirmed by Rei. That is outright confirmation there will be some aligning with Gustang's efforts as the central issue is how to deal with Baam. A FH cannot throw their weight behind protecting Baamn (one of the stated positions) without spitting in the face of Zahard who is issuing outright orders to kill or detain him. That, by extension, would put them on a collision-course with Zahard. And we know Zahard is willing to have an entire Great Family wiped off the map if you cross him.

Why wouldn't Gustang of all people do his homework ahead of time and already know who he can count on when it comes to other FH's and their plans?

We also KNOW he's working with someone insanely connected (probably Headon or Macseth) off-screen. If he has Headon, he has the single most powerful entity in the tower on his side, and if he has Macseth he has *all* of Gongbang (as they are his creations and do what he commands). There is no scenario where the person Gustang is coordinating with isn't super-important, and bringing world-shattering powers of their own.

We also KNOW Gustang is helping Baam grow and making sure he gets fed thorn pieces. The most important weapons-duo (Baam + Thorn) in the history of the tower to take on Zahard. Nah, he wouldn't want him on team Gustang /s. And if Gustang has Baam's power and momentum, he has FUG's by extension (as increasingly Baam *is* FUG, following his lead), even if there exists no formal decree of cooperation and alliance.

So, it's not really accurate to state that Gustang does not or will not have assets and allies in his efforts because there is a lot of evidence that he's been making moves with the people that matter the most when it comes to opposing Zahard. We'd also have to safely assume the smartest man in the tower has a plan on taking on Zahard, RED, his princesses, Z army, Zahard's guard and rankers, Zahard-allied FHs and their armies/children/rankers/ships, etc. That is going to require a lot of firepower, and thinking Gustang is simply planning to solo all that is a pretty poor assumption, IMO. Unless the bracelet alone gives him godlike powers, some friends and allied armies (or created ones as I pointed out) are going to be necessary, and I just assume that's something Gustang has secured in advance being the big-brained Aizen/'Just as planned' type that he is.

Regardless, having Workshop ties (at the highest level possible mind you) might be in of itself enough to overcome anything Gustang faces, along with his own knowledge and powers. And whatever the bracelet does.

There's not scenario that makes sense where Gustang isn't smart enough to make use of assets that are benefit to him, such as the ones I listed above. It is silly to think he's unqualified to make a calculated decision to take on Zahard directly without having plans to back that up, and that would probably also then entail others that he can tap to achieve his goals. Why would you go to war with someone you know has a litany of enemies just itching to go to war with them, where you don't at least make contact and float the idea of working together for you both to achieve your dream of vanquishing a shared foe? That's just stupid business, and Gustang is obviously not stupid.

 

[kkck]

To me it's a pretty huge stretch that gustang is an ally to bam. There's two angles to consider:

1.- Gustang's agenda is his and his alone. Best case scenario gustang has some use for bam. Gustang having a falling out with zahard is not the same as gustang siding with bam. There's no loyalty or friendship here to speak of. There's no guarantee that gustang's interest will align with bam's indefinitely. The actual context behind the falling out between gustang and zahard has not been elaborated in any manner by the story so far. At best we can infer this originates from enne. But even that is a stretch IMO.

2.- Gustang cares about tower residents as much as traumerei. Traumerei refers to tower residents as trifles or creatures depending on the translation. Gustang has called tower residents bugs. He thought nothing of the souls at the hidden floor, refering to them as tiny and insignificant. This obviously won't sit well with bam. This is why it seems like a stretch that enne is the reason for the fracturing. Enne wouldn't be more of a bug than the rest of the bugs. I think it's more likely that gustang takes more issue with zahard sabotaging the princess program than with a bug's fate rather than some sort of familial love. Hard to say about blosom of course but in story the implication remains that she also doesn't care about tower residents...

 

[DanielGacitua]

One use that Gustang could have for Rachel is to blur Zahard's/Guides' vision on his ship so they doesn't know if he's there or not.

I don't remember if Rachel was capable of blurring the vision of the guides on her own or needed Emily forr that, but the point is that she is capable of it even if she needs help.

Otherwise, now that Gustang has left his mothership to attack the Lo Po Bia's, either another FH or Adori/Zahard could attack it ship while he is not defending it.