Feedback Polls reconstructions and thread edits...

[Alterno]

Source: http://mangahelpers.com/forums/member.php?u=16002

I don't see a need to create a new thread with the exact same content just because we reset the poll from time to time. The manga is ongoing, the story flowing - so it's only natural that adaptions will be made to an older thread.

But where in the rules is written that adaptations will be made to an older thread?, I just reviewed the regulations of MangaHelpers to which we all should abide and respect, and there's not such thing about moderators or administrator reserving the right to adapt in anyway posts or polls, except when these are offensive.

This has little to do with rules but with keeping the topic alive and dynamic. Resetting the poll occasionally to allow a fresh start for everyone (opinions change, old members vanish and new ones come) is a normal way to do this. I don't think this is disrespecting your rights as threadstarter at all nor does it disrespect the voices of former voters. We never touched your original post but you also have to see that the topic developed over two years by now and in such an active thread, we can't avoid changes to the topic all the time. It's close to 2000 posts and one of the more popular threads afterall.

Actually it have a lot to do with the rules as established, it says "DISRESPECT WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.", and it says in general and in red: http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49983. I call disrespect taking someone ideas, editing it or changing it without consent of the author, that is even punish by laws in most of the countries as intellectual rights and even thought a group of people complained for the first edit/poll reconstruction, the whole goal of the topic was changed not once but twice.

As for your concrete question: It doesn't need a rule. That's simply our right as well as our job as community operators to subjectively decide on changes to a topic which we see as improvement for the original discussion.

Also, we avoid editing into posts as much as possible because we respect this as your private space to express your opinions. However, this is a handling the forums owner agreed on and not a matter of course. This doesn't need any kind of rule simply because MH is a privately hosted and maintained community, not a public place, which technically means that all public rights are restricted to the house rights of the owners because those have the full responsibility for everything that happens on this board.

Where is written that is the right of moderators and administration to reset, edit or reconstruct poll options or threads given a case where there's not an offensive or disrespectful intention towards the staff or a member of the community?, if is not written then we do need a rule.

Rules:
General Rules, Guidelines, and Forum Etiquette

In any case, if you still like to complain to an admin over the poll changes, feel free to do so. But I'd like to go back ontopic now, so please carry any further discussion on this matter to Pm with a staff member of your choice, okay? ^^

This is a critic, not really much a complain. I will be glad to apologize to you and the staff if you can provide me with the link where is write that is your right an duty as moderator to edit thread names, reset or reconstruct the posts, change polls options, etc.

If there's not such thing written, then I believe healthy start discussing with the administrator of the community and your moderators partners, the rights and duties of what can a moderator do or can't do and post it at rules and information forum, so we all can read and abide to it. Otherwise it would seems like making the rules on the way, and I believe that is your goal to be fair and honest.

Omar Alberto.

 

[Gecko Moria]

Forum Rules
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Although the administrators and moderators of MangaHelpers will attempt to keep all objectionable messages off this forum, it is impossible for us to review all messages. All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of MangaHelpers, nor Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message.
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This was the first message you read when you registered on MangaHelpers. Please take a close look at the last paragraph.

What you have to understand is that, contrary to popular belief, the moderators and administrators of the forums don’t really get any enjoyment out of editing threads/posts/polls. We moderate in our own free time and only make edits that we feel may benefit the community, not because we like to show off or annoy you. Thank you for your understanding.

 

[Alterno]

This was the first message you read when you registered on MangaHelpers. Please take a close look at the last paragraph.

What you have to understand is that, contrary to popular belief, the moderators and administrators of the forums don’t really get any enjoyment out of editing threads/posts/polls. We moderate in our own free time and only make edits that we feel may benefit the community, not because we like to show off or annoy you. Thank you for your understanding.

1. I didn't say that moderators enjoy doing it.
2. it says owners (not moderators), there's not such thing as the owners (administrator and moderators), it just say owners and a moderator is not a owner unless they can prove that they actually own a share of the community or given such priviledge by the owner or actual owners of the community.

So to make it clear, only "owners" can edit, close or delete threads, until given written permissions, otherwise, that means that currently even moderators shouldn't being editing or deleting threads, except those vaguely established in the rules:

Although the administrators and moderators of MangaHelpers will attempt to keep all objectionable messages off this forum, it is impossible for us to review all messages. All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of MangaHelpers, nor Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message.

I suggest posting these rules in the rules forum as well, because as one time read rule, even I forgot about what the registration "forum rules" says.

I also suggest editing such rule to specify as owners moderators as co owners of the community or to change to administrator and moderators. Make it clear

"The administrators and moderators of MangaHelpers reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason, even without previous contact with the author."

That would be clear and fair and not one would even dare to find a weakness to the rule, I'm currently work with iso people, so finding weakness in rules and procedures is more than hobby.

 

[Gecko Moria]

1. I didn't say that moderators enjoy doing it.
2. it says owners (not moderators), there's not such thing as the owners (administrator and moderators), it just say owners and a moderator is not a owner unless they can prove that they actually own a share of the community or given such priviledge by the owner or actual owners of the community.

So to make it clear, only "owners" can edit, close or delete threads, until given written permissions, otherwise, that means that currently even moderators shouldn't being editing or deleting threads, except those vaguely established in the rules:

Although the administrators and moderators of MangaHelpers will attempt to keep all objectionable messages off this forum, it is impossible for us to review all messages. All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of MangaHelpers, nor Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message.

I suggest posting these rules in the rules forum as well, because as one time read rule, even I forgot about what the registration "forum rules" says.

I also suggest editing such rule to specify as owners moderators as co owners of the community or to change to administrator and moderators. Make it clear

"The administrators and moderators of MangaHelpers reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason, even without previous contact with the author."

That would be clear and fair and not one would even dare to find a weakness to the rule, I'm currently work with iso people, so finding weakness in rules and procedures is more than hobby.

1. Obviously the owners of MangaHelpers are njt and the administrators. Moderators are members who are entrusted with maintaining order in the forum by the owners and may do so as they see beneficial to the community. To put it plainly, if one of the global moderators thought you were being disruptive to the community at this very moment (not saying you are) they have the right to ban you on the spot. Why? Because they have been granted such powers from the administrators. If the owners didn't give permission they would not have such powers. All of the moderators receive the moderator invitation PM when they are chosen to be moderators, which, for me, is written proof enough.

2. Similar to my previous point it is up to the moderators to decide what is an "objectionable message". We make decisions on this based on our experience and what other members think. For example, one of the moderators might find your above post "objectionable" (again, not saying it is) and delete it. You can make a complaint but at the end of the day it is the moderator's responsibility to decide whether or not it is offensive.

3. Though you may think our rules have faults, most members (in fact probably all members excluding you) seem to think they are fair and clear. Because MangaHelpers is a community, we need to consider the the wishes of all members not just you alone. What if we alter the rules for you and twenty other members start a thread like this one because we changed the rules? Our rules help keep stability in the site, it would be to your interest (and ours) to not go around trying to find faults in the rules.

 

[Alterno]

1. Obviously the owners of MangaHelpers are njt and the administrators. Moderators are members who are entrusted with maintaining order in the forum by the owners and may do so as they see beneficial to the community. To put it plainly, if one of the global moderators thought you were being disruptive to the community at this very moment (not saying you are) they have the right to ban you on the spot. Why? Because they have been granted such powers from the administrators. If the owners didn't give permission they would not have such powers. All of the moderators receive the moderator invitation PM when they are chosen to be moderators, which me, is written proof enough.

Disruptive: characterized by unrest or disorder or insubordination; "effects of the struggle will be violent and disruptive"; "riotous times"; "these
troubled ...

I'm sorry if I do look disruptive to you, the registration says that we should abide to the rules and the rules talks about owners being the only one capable of editing, deleting or closing threads by any reason. Being able to take criticism and advice is a good quality in people.

2. Similar to my previous point it is up to the moderators to decide what is an "objectionable message". We make decisions on this based on our experience and what other members think. For example, one of the moderators might find your above post "objectionable" (again, not saying it is) and delete it. You can make a complaint but at the end of the day it is the moderator's responsibility to decide whether or not it is offensive.

An objectionable message would be different for each people depending on their location, customs and the way they grew. As you said leaving what could be considered "objectionable" would depend on the criteria of one person, instead of pre-established common criteria for the community.

3. Though you may think our rules have faults, most members (in fact probably all members excluding you) seem to think they are fair and clear. Because MangaHelpers is a community, we need to consider the the wishes of all members not just you alone. What if we alter the rules for you and twenty other members start a thread like this one because we changed the rules? Our rules help keep stability in the site, it would be to your interest (and ours) to not go around trying to find faults in the rules.

That's sound nice, would the administration and moderators up to open a forum in which members could propose rules and vote for them? or would be moderators and administrator willing to propose rules and let us vote and see if we agree or disagree with them?. Remembering than in our case, after the first reconstruction a few us complained and it weren't due the wishes of one person.

The rules are never fair or unfair, they are just the rules and as person who stick to the rules, accepting something not written as rule is hard, even could be considered as making the rules as the situation shows up and that could be considered unfair.

I'm not asking for privileges and neither want moderators to look at this as disruptive, instead as good opportunity to improve by letting know the rest of the community wich are the given rights and duties, designed by the administrator.

We do appreciate the time and effort that you guys put in this community, to keep it steady as the most successful and greatest. Hoping you look into these critics as chance to improve...

Omar A. Perez

 

[Gecko Moria]

As I clearly stated, I did not necessarily say you were being disruptive. It was merely an example and I apologise if my point was unclear. Your criticism is constructive and I am sure it is much appreciate by the staff and community as it will help us to make MH a better place.

Yes, the rules do say the owners (administrators) have the absolute authority to editing, delete or close threads and moderators are those entrusted to help with this task. Therefore, please think of the moderators as “owners incarnate” as we basically are a special branch of MH administration.

A moderator has the right to deem any message “objectionable” and remove said message. Members can appeal against the moderator’s decision but at the end of the day it is still up to the moderation team to decide whether or not the post is removed or not, regardless of how many and how much members complain.

As for a forum for members to propose rules you’ve found it: http://mangahelpers.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=23. It’s exactly where you’ve posted this thread. The Site Questions / Comments / Complaints place to post all site related questions and suggestions.

As a final note, when you say accepting something that is not in the rules is hard, please use your common sense. The rules are guidelines, some things are too obvious to put in the rules. For example, moderators having the right to edit threads, posts etc. If moderators did not have the right to do this there would be no moderators. Basically all of the members in the community accept this fact just fine.