Discussion Potential problems with the magical/physical split stat system

Merlin918

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I have noticed that many characters who rely on magic seem very 'gimmicky', which makes their survival hard to explain.

The most prominent example here is King, with Gloxinia being an example of the same problem. They both have a strength stat of 0, which implies that their physical durability is nearly nothing. Gloxinia's glass cannon nature came up frequently in the Meliodas vs Dolor and Gloxinia fight, and only didn't get him killed because Meliodas held back. However, if this was treated realistically, assuming the strength stat=durability, he would splat on even the slightest impact. For now, I just assume that the Magic stat not only allows characters like Gloxinia and King to fly around and evade quickly, but also provides some measure of durability, as otherwise, their survival of high level attacks directly hitting them is utterly unexplainable. Their durability would simply be lower compared to melee types, and that's all well and good, but it needs to be there to some extent for them to ever win battles.

Nakaba seems to have heavily moved away from making any character gimmicky over time as he wrote this manga. We had several characters like King, Merlin, Gloxinia, etc, which were all like this early on, but almost all the newly introduced characters were not. Not a single one of the Four Archangels is like that, not even Sariel(who used a melee ark-blade attack against Estarossa just as well as Tarmiel did), and all the newly introduced antagonists also were not. For example, Chandler and Cusack were either Masters of All or master melee combatants respectively, and the Demon King, of course, can do both things, primarily physical attack To me, it seems like Nakaba started to recognize the problem here, and tried to ignore it as best as he could with already present characters like King, as it fortunately became less relevant due to King's evolution in learning to defend and attack at the same time, but that's just me. I also think this is part of why it's so difficult to believe Merlin can ever be killed in her fights. There is never a sense that she can be harmed since she is never hit., and any direct hit would vaporize her due to her nearly nonexistent power level compared to other characters later on. It would be so much better if Merlin simply used lots of automatic barriers created constantly by "Infinity", and you could see more of the layers getting destroyed over time if she was losing, but this was not done.

However, even these especially balanced characters like Mael/Ludociel/Chandler/Monspiet who have good magic capabilities while also being good at physical attack bring up the inherent flaw in this magical/physical split, and this is the key point of the whole post. It makes being good at two things inherently a bad and suboptimal choice since it's a zero sum game. If you're good at magic and physical then you're only half as good as you could be in each, and against someone who's incredibly overpowered at one or the other, you should logically be dead meat. For example, imagine if Garan had been way stronger when he was young, and was equal in overall power level to Monspiet. Now let's nerf Monspiet and make his physical/magical split exactly half in each rather than mostly magic and a little bit of physical, so that he's not that good at either. What would happen is Garan would absolutely body Monspiet in melee combat. Monspiet having fireballs and Hellblaze wouldn't really do anything to make up for it at all, since the fireballs would be half as powerful as Garan's defense. Trick Star could only help him a little as a gimmick, so Garan would win in overwhelming fashion. This is the core problem with the physical/magical split, it makes learning both a bad choice. That problem only seemingly goes away when Nakaba does not cover the physical/magical split. And, unsurprisingly, he stopped doing so as soon as he introduced the Four Archangels, Chandler/Cusack, and the DK, which really seems to line up with this hypothesis. In the case of Monspiet vs Estarossa, it seems like Monspiet's strength stat of 16'000 was ignored altogether vs Estarossa's overwhelmingly higher strength of 53'000. That 3 to 1 gap should have easily overpowered Monspiet's strength even when Monspiet tricked him into a chokehold, but it was ignored for the sake of the plot to make it look like Monspiet could ever possibly defeat Estarossa with physical force.

My solution to this would be that if Nakaba had foreseen these problems, he could have simply made a 'power level' overall that can be used in either physical or magical fashion. Spirit would be a separate thing from this and possibly not have a number attached at all. Super magic specialists like King would be more efficient when using that 'Power' stat for their magical attacks, but it would still be the same power they use in melee. AKA, King might be a mere 1/4th efficiency if he used physical attacks compared to his standard magic, but against Holy Knights, he would still speed blitz and physically overpower them. This would also solve issues for Monspiet and others, explaining why Mael/Ludociel aren't inherently weaker types of combatants. It would also allow Zeldris's frequent magic use in this manga to make sense with his power level rather than being totally inconsistent with his super low magic stat. Merlin would be an exception though, as her actual power level is somehow still very low, so she'd still be glass without many Infinity barriers blocking for her, or illusion cheese, or invisibility, and so on. Meanwhile, the ideal fighters would be those who have become Masters of All like Chandler and learn to balance both physical and magical so they don't become weaker in one by getting good at the other. I would have the Demon King and Supreme Deity both be like this along with Meliodas and Elizabeth, since at end of series it would make sense for them to surpass their parents when they inevitably end up ousting them from their positions. Nakaba already decided to make Meliodas suddenly a master of magic with that 'Condense Power' technique he used earlier, so he might as well do so with the DK and SD.

This system overall has limited character development as well. In my opinion, it would've been good development for King and Diane if Diane taught King how to be better at physical attacks or at least evasion(as the Dolor Dance uses evasion significantly after all), and if King's assistance with his mind reading powers and magical skill had been more important in Diane mastering the magic manipulation component of the Dolor Dance.

Of course, it's too late now for him to make that logical, but in my opinion that just means he should not limit himself with the illogical system he created and allow Meliodas or Elizabeth to do such feats in their final battles if he sees it as appropriate and thinks it will make the fight look a lot more entertaining. Meanwhile, he shouldn't bother stating their power levels at this point no matter how much they power up in the final fight, since too much of that is inconsistent. If he was going to do that, he should've done it already with the Demon King emerging from the cocoon.

TLDR, I think the split magic/physical stat system was a mistake, and Nakaba should continue to ignore it however much he needs to to make the fights entertaining. Obviously, characters who have never used physical combat until now like King should not suddenly use it, but he should not limit his antagonists like the SD and DK, or Meliodas and Elizabeth, and prevent them from doing complex magic if he thinks that will make the fight more entertaining. I personally think magic can add a lot of entertainment value to a shonen fight, with fights like those with King after his recent power up, and also with characters like Chandler who had versatile and unpredictable movesets. It certainly would be a lot better than having the DK stand there and spam giant slashes like he did earlier in the fight. Hopefully Nakaba will try harder with the rest of the fight to make it consistent with their abilities as well, even them just using the powers they already have and aren't using would be so much better.
 

Kinguxsloth

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Ok we already know thats is not gonna happen and that he gonna continue with basic fights so what the point of this post?
 

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Ok we already know thats is not gonna happen and that he gonna continue with basic fights so what the point of this post?
Discussion i quess even when we now nothing can be done
 

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My idea here is that your overall magic power can also have an effect on your ability to take attacks. Focusing on magic is a legitimate combat approach within nnt and if strictly magical characters were really that frail they simply wouldn't be able to function at all. It would also explain how characters who have more balanced stats are capable of taking attacks from people with comparable PLs that focus on a given stat.
 

Merlin918

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Ok we already know thats is not gonna happen and that he gonna continue with basic fights so what the point of this post?
I said at the end, it could make the last battles more interesting if he didn't limit himself by the system with the DK and SD. AKA, if he doesn't make them unable to use any good magic like he did earlier by having the DK just spam slashes.
 

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I said at the end, it could make the last battles more interesting if he didn't limit himself by the system with the DK and SD. AKA, if he doesn't make them unable to use any good magic like he did earlier by having the DK just spam slashes.
I am death, despair, I AM THE DEMON KING. Now watch me use a common darkness slash while ignoring all the dark arts I’ve mastered. Magnificent isn’t it
 

Merlin918

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I am death, despair, I AM THE DEMON KING. Now watch me use a common darkness slash while ignoring all the dark arts I’ve mastered. Magnificent isn’t it
Yeah, RIP. He didn't even use Hellblaze against Gelda when he cut her head off. Imagine if she'd thought 'oh, i can just regenerate' and then got trolled and became unable to reattach her head to her body because Hellblaze flames that stop regeneration are a thing. Forcing someone to cut off her neck so she can with great difficulty take time to regrow a new body, while struggling Tsunade-style for the rest of the fight to stay alive with just a part of her body while there on the ground unable to do anything further but be mind linked. He also forgot True Night and a lot of other stuff.

At least he's using a little tiny bit more magic now, like the eruption move he used on all of them, but it still feels really underwhelming.
 

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I am death, despair, I AM THE DEMON KING. Now watch me use a common darkness slash while ignoring all the dark arts I’ve mastered. Magnificent isn’t it
benomaru shinamon? :D
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Yeah, RIP. He didn't even use Hellblaze against Gelda when he cut her head off. Imagine if she'd thought 'oh, i can just regenerate' and then got trolled and became unable to reattach her head to her body because Hellblaze flames that stop regeneration are a thing. Forcing someone to cut off her neck so she can with great difficulty take time to regrow a new body, while struggling Tsunade-style for the rest of the fight to stay alive with just a part of her body while there on the ground unable to do anything further but be mind linked. He also forgot True Night and a lot of other stuff.

At least he's using a little tiny bit more magic now, like the eruption move he used on all of them, but it still feels really underwhelming.
That attack barely did some damage though like some lesser tier lvl of damage
 

Jdmp53

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I have noticed that many characters who rely on magic seem very 'gimmicky', which makes their survival hard to explain.

The most prominent example here is King, with Gloxinia being an example of the same problem. They both have a strength stat of 0, which implies that their physical durability is nearly nothing. Gloxinia's glass cannon nature came up frequently in the Meliodas vs Dolor and Gloxinia fight, and only didn't get him killed because Meliodas held back. However, if this was treated realistically, assuming the strength stat=durability, he would splat on even the slightest impact. For now, I just assume that the Magic stat not only allows characters like Gloxinia and King to fly around and evade quickly, but also provides some measure of durability, as otherwise, their survival of high level attacks directly hitting them is utterly unexplainable. Their durability would simply be lower compared to melee types, and that's all well and good, but it needs to be there to some extent for them to ever win battles.

Nakaba seems to have heavily moved away from making any character gimmicky over time as he wrote this manga. We had several characters like King, Merlin, Gloxinia, etc, which were all like this early on, but almost all the newly introduced characters were not. Not a single one of the Four Archangels is like that, not even Sariel(who used a melee ark-blade attack against Estarossa just as well as Tarmiel did), and all the newly introduced antagonists also were not. For example, Chandler and Cusack were either Masters of All or master melee combatants respectively, and the Demon King, of course, can do both things, primarily physical attack To me, it seems like Nakaba started to recognize the problem here, and tried to ignore it as best as he could with already present characters like King, as it fortunately became less relevant due to King's evolution in learning to defend and attack at the same time, but that's just me. I also think this is part of why it's so difficult to believe Merlin can ever be killed in her fights. There is never a sense that she can be harmed since she is never hit., and any direct hit would vaporize her due to her nearly nonexistent power level compared to other characters later on. It would be so much better if Merlin simply used lots of automatic barriers created constantly by "Infinity", and you could see more of the layers getting destroyed over time if she was losing, but this was not done.

However, even these especially balanced characters like Mael/Ludociel/Chandler/Monspiet who have good magic capabilities while also being good at physical attack bring up the inherent flaw in this magical/physical split, and this is the key point of the whole post. It makes being good at two things inherently a bad and suboptimal choice since it's a zero sum game. If you're good at magic and physical then you're only half as good as you could be in each, and against someone who's incredibly overpowered at one or the other, you should logically be dead meat. For example, imagine if Garan had been way stronger when he was young, and was equal in overall power level to Monspiet. Now let's nerf Monspiet and make his physical/magical split exactly half in each rather than mostly magic and a little bit of physical, so that he's not that good at either. What would happen is Garan would absolutely body Monspiet in melee combat. Monspiet having fireballs and Hellblaze wouldn't really do anything to make up for it at all, since the fireballs would be half as powerful as Garan's defense. Trick Star could only help him a little as a gimmick, so Garan would win in overwhelming fashion. This is the core problem with the physical/magical split, it makes learning both a bad choice. That problem only seemingly goes away when Nakaba does not cover the physical/magical split. And, unsurprisingly, he stopped doing so as soon as he introduced the Four Archangels, Chandler/Cusack, and the DK, which really seems to line up with this hypothesis. In the case of Monspiet vs Estarossa, it seems like Monspiet's strength stat of 16'000 was ignored altogether vs Estarossa's overwhelmingly higher strength of 53'000. That 3 to 1 gap should have easily overpowered Monspiet's strength even when Monspiet tricked him into a chokehold, but it was ignored for the sake of the plot to make it look like Monspiet could ever possibly defeat Estarossa with physical force.

My solution to this would be that if Nakaba had foreseen these problems, he could have simply made a 'power level' overall that can be used in either physical or magical fashion. Spirit would be a separate thing from this and possibly not have a number attached at all. Super magic specialists like King would be more efficient when using that 'Power' stat for their magical attacks, but it would still be the same power they use in melee. AKA, King might be a mere 1/4th efficiency if he used physical attacks compared to his standard magic, but against Holy Knights, he would still speed blitz and physically overpower them. This would also solve issues for Monspiet and others, explaining why Mael/Ludociel aren't inherently weaker types of combatants. It would also allow Zeldris's frequent magic use in this manga to make sense with his power level rather than being totally inconsistent with his super low magic stat. Merlin would be an exception though, as her actual power level is somehow still very low, so she'd still be glass without many Infinity barriers blocking for her, or illusion cheese, or invisibility, and so on. Meanwhile, the ideal fighters would be those who have become Masters of All like Chandler and learn to balance both physical and magical so they don't become weaker in one by getting good at the other. I would have the Demon King and Supreme Deity both be like this along with Meliodas and Elizabeth, since at end of series it would make sense for them to surpass their parents when they inevitably end up ousting them from their positions. Nakaba already decided to make Meliodas suddenly a master of magic with that 'Condense Power' technique he used earlier, so he might as well do so with the DK and SD.

This system overall has limited character development as well. In my opinion, it would've been good development for King and Diane if Diane taught King how to be better at physical attacks or at least evasion(as the Dolor Dance uses evasion significantly after all), and if King's assistance with his mind reading powers and magical skill had been more important in Diane mastering the magic manipulation component of the Dolor Dance.

Of course, it's too late now for him to make that logical, but in my opinion that just means he should not limit himself with the illogical system he created and allow Meliodas or Elizabeth to do such feats in their final battles if he sees it as appropriate and thinks it will make the fight look a lot more entertaining. Meanwhile, he shouldn't bother stating their power levels at this point no matter how much they power up in the final fight, since too much of that is inconsistent. If he was going to do that, he should've done it already with the Demon King emerging from the cocoon.

TLDR, I think the split magic/physical stat system was a mistake, and Nakaba should continue to ignore it however much he needs to to make the fights entertaining. Obviously, characters who have never used physical combat until now like King should not suddenly use it, but he should not limit his antagonists like the SD and DK, or Meliodas and Elizabeth, and prevent them from doing complex magic if he thinks that will make the fight more entertaining. I personally think magic can add a lot of entertainment value to a shonen fight, with fights like those with King after his recent power up, and also with characters like Chandler who had versatile and unpredictable movesets. It certainly would be a lot better than having the DK stand there and spam giant slashes like he did earlier in the fight. Hopefully Nakaba will try harder with the rest of the fight to make it consistent with their abilities as well, even them just using the powers they already have and aren't using would be so much better.
What i interpret from fairy king having 0 physical is that they can't exert any physical force..like even a simple punch..we have got so many times to see king landing punches to others and having shrugged off....i mean we've seen him taking hits from albion and live through..so it's not durability..night escanor is skinny and has a physical of 5 indicating how much strength he put on a punch/force/impact...and hawk has 20 or so , being an animal ..that makes sense..

Basically what i'm saying is that it comes down to how much one can exert a force/create an impact using their magic / physical ..what i said was also sid by hawk after the ep where power lvls were introduced..
 

Merlin918

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What i interpret from fairy king having 0 physical is that they can't exert any physical force..like even a simple punch..we have got so many times to see king landing punches to others and having shrugged off....i mean we've seen him taking hits from albion and live through..so it's not durability..night escanor is skinny and has a physical of 5 indicating how much strength he put on a punch/force/impact...and hawk has 20 or so , being an animal ..that makes sense..

Basically what i'm saying is that it comes down to how much one can exert a force/create an impact using their magic / physical ..
I realize he has taken many hits and offered a possible explanation of magic providing some degree of durability on its own. That would be the best explanation in the current system. And yes that would fit with your idea that physical decides physical force you can exert. However, we have seen that this is not all the Strength stat does. Estarossa has easily tanked heart-stealing attacks from Ban that would kill normal people, and he didn't block, so it's safe to assume that Strength also offers passive durability.
 

Jdmp53

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I realize he has taken many hits and offered a possible explanation of magic providing some degree of durability on its own. That would be the best explanation in the current system. And yes that would fit with your idea that physical decides physical force you can exert. However, we have seen that this is not all the Strength stat does. Estarossa has easily tanked heart-stealing attacks from Ban that would kill normal people, and he didn't block, so it's safe to assume that Strength also offers passive durability.
actually we didn't see what happened to ban's hand..he went for it..next we see his hand bloodied,estarossa might've cut his fingers ..he was fast enough to slip between ban and mel when ban was on guard to stab him..if we say look into what u r saying.. estarossa's stats..u can see his majority lies in physical so ban's meager 1k physical force can't do shit against estarossa...also if u r implying he took galand's and melascula's hearts easily..he had used hunter fest earlier ..
 

Merlin918

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actually we didn't see what happened to ban's hand..he went for it..next we see his hand bloodied,estarossa might've cut his fingers ..he was fast enough to slip between ban and mel when ban was on guard to stab him..if we say look into what u r saying.. estarossa's stats..u can see his majority lies in physical so ban's meager 1k physical force can't do shit against estarossa...also if u r implying he took galand's and melascula's hearts easily..he had used hunter fest earlier ..
I don't think he did cut Ban's fingers, his fingers got busted and bent in the wrong directions on impact with his skin, not cut by some kind of attack from Estarossa.

He took Garan and Merascylla's hearts because he powered up his strength by stealing theirs. Estarossa was just too strong for him to do that even when he stole some of his strength. We saw him trying to snap Estarossa's neck with all his strength but he just was too weak even when Estarossa just stood there.
 

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benomaru shinamon? :D
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---



That attack barely did some damage though like some lesser tier lvl of damage
nakaba has really downplayed with DK..he is just not giving thought into attacks either by sins or DK..what i see is him doing this fight to scale up the explosions and make everything look cooler without looking into logic ..as a really great fan of this series i wish this fight could've gone like chandlervs sins / melvs 10C...everybody going all out they as much they can..DK should've just made a comeback using his real body with the 10C going to back to purgatory to release him and then zel and mel teaming up to fight their father along with sunshine mael and sins and elizabeth fighting SD....it would've been epic..
I don't think he did cut Ban's fingers, his fingers got busted and bent in the wrong directions on impact with his skin, not cut by some kind of attack from Estarossa.

He took Garan and Merascylla's hearts because he powered up his strength by stealing theirs. Estarossa was just too strong for him to do that even when he stole some of his strength. We saw him trying to snap Estarossa's neck with all his strength but he just was too weak even when Estarossa just stood there.
actually..might be off topic but this led me to think why would ban stop at destroying one heart each from melascula and galand even when he had more power..he knows demons have more than one heart from a painful encounter in the past..
 

Merlin918

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actually..might be off topic but this led me to think why would ban stop at destroying one heart each from melascula and galand even when he had more power..he knows demons have more than one heart from a painful encounter in the past..
I guess he just isn't the smartest of characters. He probably forgot because they don't look the same as the Red Demons, it's not like he knows for sure that they have multiple hearts too.
 
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