question about logia powers

[REN KOUEN]

if a logia user is attacked by surprise,or from behind and doesnt see the attack coming
does the attack (non-haki) hit them or does it pass through?
a better way to ask is does the body automatically turn into the properties of the element, or does the user have to willingly let that pirtion of their body transform?

 

[Azuma]

The former. I am pretty sure that Kizaru was shot a few times from behind during the Sabondy arc while he was simply not caring, not to mention that Apoo 'cut' him up.

 

[PLfighter]

if a logia user is attacked by surprise,or from behind and doesnt see the attack coming
does the attack (non-haki) hit them or does it pass through?
a better way to ask is does the body automatically turn into the properties of the element, or does the user have to willingly let that pirtion of their body transform?

Its depend of df logia user skill Crocodile state if logia user master his df can be elemental state all the time automatically and can damage him only haki kairoseri opposite or superior element maybe fishmann karate.

 

[Razh]

if a logia user is attacked by surprise,or from behind and doesnt see the attack coming
does the attack (non-haki) hit them or does it pass through?
a better way to ask is does the body automatically turn into the properties of the element, or does the user have to willingly let that pirtion of their body transform?

I think the user has to willingly turn himself into the element. Otherwise he couldn't be able to touch anything or be touched. A flame doesn't know the difference between a punch and a hand shake.

Kizaru might have been on a sort of a standby mode while appearing to not care (since he's light it shouldn't be too hard for him to become sort of a hologram), or he's enough of an expert to turn into his element on reflex.

 

[noonethere]

I think the user has to willingly turn himself into the element. Otherwise he couldn't be able to touch anything or be touched. A flame doesn't know the difference between a punch and a hand shake.

Kizaru might have been on a sort of a standby mode while appearing to not care (since he's light it shouldn't be too hard for him to become sort of a hologram), or he's enough of an expert to turn into his element on reflex.

I think Kizaru probably used CoO to predict the shots. If it's true that logia users need to willing turn on their power, this would probably mean that high level of CoO users can hurt them even without using CoA.

 

[HereNThere]

As it has been stated it depends on the users skill. Crocodile is currently the only one known to trained himself to the point where his abilities activate on reflex, making any surprise non-haki or water attack on him ineffective. On the flip-side, during Alabaster, Ace and Smoker were hit by surprise and neither turned intangible.

The CoO theory may hold some relevance as well as we've seen Eneru pull the same thing Kizaru did. But that could be attributed to the fact that they were in dangerous areas where fights were going on. I wouldn't be surprised though if Logia users with haki sensed the attack and reacted by turning intangible.

 

[BurnSchulz]

Interestint to see that there are indeed different opinions on this.

Well i think the invincible Mode for Logia users, to turn to the element when hit at the exact spot, is a fully automatic defence function.
I think to fully turn to the Element has to be trained (also to develop other usefull powers like Crocodiles Righ Hand - Ground Zero attack, or his Desert Rose).
And to Touch somebody is something the User wants. So his Body is Solid when wanting to touch anything - no need to be trained, because its more like a descision.
This way there is a difference if he wants to shake hands or if somebody attacks the user by surprise.

 

[Razh]

Well i think the invincible Mode for Logia users, to turn to the element when hit at the exact spot, is a fully automatic defence function.

I think there's no such thing. Using ability depends on the user's will to use it, not on some devil fruit programming. It would mean that the logia ability reacts by activating when a certain amount of force is used on it's user. That would also mean that the user can't take a hit even if he wants to.

But, I think the situation with Ace and Smoker in Alabasta proves that it's not something automatic. And if that isn't enough, we have Luffy kicking Aokiji here.

 

[REN KOUEN]

I think there's no such thing. Using ability depends on the user's will to use it, not on some devil fruit programming. It would mean that the logia ability reacts by activating when a certain amount of force is used on it's user. That would also mean that the user can't take a hit even if he wants to.

But, I think the situation with Ace and Smoker in Alabasta proves that it's not something automatic. And if that isn't enough, we have Luffy kicking Aokiji here.

to me it seems like the logia fruit sometimes has a will of its own, and actd automatically to reduce or avoid damage

 

[Razh]

to me it seems like the logia fruit sometimes has a will of its own, and actd automatically to reduce or avoid damage

Well, I gave examples. Where are yours?

 

[BurnSchulz]

Well, I gave examples. Where are yours?

That he doesnt brought examples doesnt automaticly means that his opinion is wrong.

Using ability depends on the user's will to use it, not on some devil fruit programming.

As far as we know it is! After eaten a DF your Body is "programmed" to the Devil Fruits will. And i think Luffy himself is a good example for it.
How often his body stretches, mostly just for fun, without him being really aware of it.

Spoiler

(Just one example, there are much more like Nami being upset)

Or Buggy.

Spoiler

I dont think that they always have to be fully aware of an attack incoming that their DF powers will work. Its like their Bodys are under influence of their DF powers full time.

I think that Luffys arm stretches when being pulled is an automatic thing, also that Buggy cant be cut, also that every bullet from anywhere fired on an Logia User will just go through.

So its more or less a fully automatic thing. No difference between Logia or Paramecia Users. Your Body has the Shape of your body but has the attribute of the Element your DF Power gave you. Haki or Kairoseki negate it though.

Once you have eaten a DF, you have the power (advantage or disadvantage) full time.
Besides... there was never a Situation stated where a logia User couldnt grab anything or touch anything because he wasnt aware of it or because his DF Power didnt allow him to. But thats two different things.

Being attacked - not be aware - Logia Powers advantage to let the attack automaticly go through.
Touching something - descission - full awareness - thing can be grabbed.

Also i admit, that it is a difference between just being the Person, with the shape of the Person, or transforming into elemental Form for Attack like Aces fire fist, or smokers white strike.

 

[REN KOUEN]

Well, I gave examples. Where are yours?

honestly i am not prepared to properly answer your question

now that i consider kizaru probably does use observation haki

its likely that his seemingly instantaneous property shiftd could have been predicted

however smoker also seemed to dodge a few attacjs he probably shouldnt have; its been a while since i read or watched material of smoker when he was fighting more often though so i cannot give you an exact chapter or fight

give me a while to go back and research to find specific examples, i appologize for starting this thread unprepared

 

[Razh]

That he doesnt brought examples doesnt automaticly means that his opinion is wrong.

I just asked for examples in the interest of further discussion.

About Luffy and Buggy. Luffy is constantly rubber, because his fruit had made him like that. That's why there are situations where Nami stretches his face or his arms get stretched or he becomes a human balloon after one of his eating marathons. He has no normal mode, like logias do.
Buggy's fruit, on the other hand, has made him immune to cutting attacks, due to it's nature. He can just attach back because that's what it allows him to do.

---------- Post added at 04:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:59 AM ----------

however smoker also seemed to dodge a few attacjs he probably shouldnt have; its been a while since i read or watched material of smoker when he was fighting more often though so i cannot give you an exact chapter or fight

During Loguetown he didn't avoid any attacks that would seem completely unexpected. In Marineford battle one guy tried to cut him from the back and Smoker avoided it without even looking. But, since he was in the middle of a massive battle, it stands to reason he was prepared.

give me a while to go back and research to find specific examples, i appologize for starting this thread unprepared

No need for apologies.

 

[alelucas]

Maybe we need a thread on Physics & Physiology of One Piece Universe.

 

[BurnSchulz]

About Luffy and Buggy. Luffy is constantly rubber, because his fruit had made him like that. That's why there are situations where Nami stretches his face or his arms get stretched or he becomes a human balloon after one of his eating marathons. He has no normal mode, like logias do.
Buggy's fruit, on the other hand, has made him immune to cutting attacks, due to it's nature. He can just attach back because that's what it allows him to do.

Well the Main Problem i have with your theory, that a Logia User must be aware of an attack to doge it through elemental changing, is, that this implies that ANYONE can really hurt a Logia user if the Logia user is just not paying attention and/or didnt see any attack coming. So any good sniper can Kill a Logia User wth a good shot if the User wasnt aware of an attack. But Such thing never happened in One Piece, so i dont believe it.
Also i dont believe that every Logia User automaticly has CoO to doge any attack better.

I beliee, and i have no reason to dont believe it, that the Elemental Form is omnipresent.
But that a Logia User cant Touch anything is something which was never a Role in One piece, dont know why u came up with this.
All that we know is - A Logia User can Touch anything he wants. Like if he is giving a Hand Shake or eating something.
And what we also know is, that every time a Bullet or Sword attack comes to a logia User, it will go through.

The Alabasta example with Smoker is nice. But its like the only time something like this happens, and it goes against all the 'Rules' we learned about Logia in the Whole Plot til that time and from that time on to present day.
Maybe someone needs to ask Oda why Smoker was Pushed away by Luffy insdead of Luffy slipping through. Then we can have a clear answer.

Maybe he would say its the Tension of an upcoming Battle between Smoker and Ace.

 

[David Rose]

I'd say this discussion is kinda useless since we know about the forms of Haki. With it any logia user could foresee attacks and willingly let them pass.

In my opinion it's all about seeing the attack coming. As a logia you can convert your body in that element and become intangible. Since they do it willingly they activate it, maybe even subconcious, then the bullet passes through and they deactivate it to become solid again. We also pretty much know experienced logia users can become partially intangible, like Crocodile, who would otherwise loose his hook on every transformation (or is he able to transform the hook aswell? I'm not sure). Guess it all comes down to the experience, like always :P

Dircetly to the opening question: I don't think we will ever again see a logia user without Haki in the manga, which is bad since Haki users are hard to surprise. And most people now also use Haki to attack so they don't need to rely on surprise attacks just to bypass logia powers.
From what we have seen it's most likely possible to bypass them in the matter you described, while the logia user can dodge by willingly or subconscious (out of reflex) transforming their whole body, or parts. Well, given he's aware of beeing in danger.

 

[RichardMNixon]

Well, I gave examples. Where are yours?

I recall Crocodile here saying something to the effect that he had trained his powers to eliminate the possibility of being attacked by surprise, but I don't see it in that Edited Manga. It could have been something the anime added.

My interpretation of the kick to Aokiji is simply that the kick wasn't strong enough to hurt him, let alone fracture him. Aokiji was leagues above Luffy at that point and frankly didn't care that some rookie foolishly kicked him.

 

[Razh]

My interpretation of the kick to Aokiji is simply that the kick wasn't strong enough to hurt him, let alone fracture him. Aokiji was leagues above Luffy at that point and frankly didn't care that some rookie foolishly kicked him.

Well, I like my explanation for that and that is that Aokiji knew it won't hurt him and chose not to activate his power.

The other camp here would probably explain it with logia ability itself deciding it wouldn't hurt Aokiji and choosing not to intervene. As if it's intelligent or something.

I think the answer is pretty clear, based on everything we saw about logias in One Piece.

 

[BetaRuler]

Its hard to tell but from the examples we're giving such as Ace bumping into Smoker,,
In that example they weren't really getting cut up or exploded, so their bodies didn't really have to rebuild themselves... Where as when Kizaru got blown up from the head he didn't see it coming so he had to rebuild his body. They can still be caught off guard.

But to hurt them seems another story, Jozu had to have done something to hurt Aokiji back in the war, along side Whitebeard punching Akainu. There are a lot of confusing things about when they can or can't hurt them... Plus with the introduction of Haki it now seems you can hurt them even when they turn their body into elements.

Also I almost forgot there was something around Zoro's way to defeat Monet in that Monet could have been instant killed had Zoro used haki or something? Oh dear I'd need to reread it again, but no matter how many times it's still not easy to explain or understand

 

[hoeru]

if a logia user is attacked by surprise,or from behind and doesnt see the attack coming
does the attack (non-haki) hit them or does it pass through?
a better way to ask is does the body automatically turn into the properties of the element, or does the user have to willingly let that pirtion of their body transform?

Chapter 158, p. 6&7: Logia users do have to willingly activate their intangible mode. Otherwise they're hit, even if they see the attack coming. Ace was actually hit twice, by Luffy and later Smoker.

Kizaru was prepared to come to Sabaody and well informed about pirates being there. That's why he went there with his intangible mode on - he got there riding a cannon ball that exploded. So why would he turn it off in a war zone?