Discussion Rachel As a Character

[Aliblack]

Rachel is depicted as a normal human being. She’s someone with whom you can sympathize and feel more related to. These characteristics are from a good character but maybe not enough to be likable. She looks pathetic. The word pathetic has been written all over her mediocre face. Maybe, the best term to describe her might be ‘tragic anti-hero’. Hero because SIU does not want to make her an antagonist at the end of the story but an ally to the protagonist somehow. An anti-hero may be an outcast or a villain from the point of view of society, the cast, or even the audience, but with whom many audiences can sympathize. Tragic heroes are central figures of the story who are not admirable or likable and whose actions may even be deplorable. If she's a tragic hero (I'm not sure about that), she will never overcome her inner demons and will get destroyed by them. The flaw will win in the end.
She’s out of tune with these weird characters. In a fantasy world where power is everything, everyone looks super powerful compared to her. She’s out of place in this world. Maybe, she could be much better in a drama but not here. If a character with these qualities wants to survive in this world, she should have huge plot armors. She should have strong connections to achieve her goal without being special. You can’t justify these connections just by the title of ‘irregular’ without saying what’s so special about her (remind you of her description by Gustang and Headon). SIU has made her a mysterious character who knows a lot about Bam. Bam can’t have access to this information about his identity and because of that, he should follow her. She will reveal information bit by bit to be relatable to the story.
As Androssi and Khun have said, they didn’t understand Bam and Rachel's relationship. You might try to understand their relationship, but you’re not able to fully understand it. After all, who’s been in his situation? There is only one person in your life and she’s the center of your universe? She’s like the meaning of his existence and life. Something in that order of importance.
Let's look at Khun's dialogue with Evan about his relationship with Bam, which is somehow can help to understand Bam and Rachel's relationship:
Khun: “Life itself may not have any real meaning, you know? Is being obsessed with breathing and blood flowing through your body really living? In order to find a meaning for me being born and living, don’t I have to find something more important than that? If something comes up where I have to put my life on the line to go with it, what meaning would the rest of my life have if I were to miss that? Right now, I feel like the end of the world will come if Bam isn’t here. I can sort of understand how Bam felt waiting for Rachel every day. He probably felt the world would end if Rachel disappeared. I never thought I would understand their relationship. This is insane.” (Looks like their relationship was not enough and SIU added a similar ridiculous relationship like that to the story, this time for Khun).
For around 400 chapters, this relationship was the major driving force for Bam. I can understand it and accept Bam’s simping until some point not until more than halfway through the story. That is why their relationship makes readers frustrated. Half of the story was about the emotional aspect of the relationship, and the other is about revealing secrets about their past. At least I hope I don't see that painful cycle of simping, again.

P.S.: 1: I took the term “tragic anti-hero’ and its descriptions from The Writer’s Journey by Christopher Vogler. It’s a great book, but unfortunately, I have only read its hero section. It’s about archetypes that writers have used at different times and in different cultures.

2: As I said I used hero because I thought SIU has planned this for Rachel from the beginning. Although, there is some evidence for this they are in no way conclusive. Maybe, he just sees her as a driving force for Bam or maybe something more. Blogpost Chapter 226: “On the relationship between Bam and Rachel… Since Rachel is the one who can shake up Bam the most Perhaps it’s Rachel’s role to drive the change in Bam.” In the story, she’s an antagonist who is against the protagonist, Bam, fighting for the same goal. Or SIU understands the concept of antagonism differently from me. I used 'tragic' because I always thought she would have a tragic end. I'm not sure anymore. I have doubts that SIU will write a tragic ending for her favorite character when he doesn't kill unimportant characters.

3: I see some people attribute the characteristic charisma to Rachel to prove something about her irregular position. This is a subjective characteristic. Some can feel it, some cannot. It has been proposed some characteristics of charismatic leaders aside from that innate quality but Rachel is not qualified enough to meet that criteria. And the purpose of those characteristics is to explain the feeling we have toward charismatic leaders, which returns us to the first point, a completely subjective characteristic. We have three occasions, as long as I know, the characters talked about having strange feelings for her. The first one was Androssi. She felt she was from a different world. Second, the traveler felt something dangerous about her, and the last one, De Jah on the Floor of Death felt an ominous feeling.

4: Her most important characteristic I can think of, which is useful, is breaking rules because of being irregular. SIU intends to save her character by giving Emily to her.

5: An anti-hero doesn't mean the opposite of a hero. They are special kinds of heroes who are unlike conventional ones.

 

[Demonspeed]

Ah, the good old Rachel threads/debates. ToG is truly back. All the best arcs have had Rachel in them after all .

The series truly felt off without the female MC .

 

[King Dryst]

I don't sympathize with or relate to her in any way whatsoever.

 

[zoradante1]

I don't sympathize with or relate to her in any way whatsoever.

Agreed the whole thing about sympathizing with her seems disgusting to me and should be to all the people.

After all i don't sympathize with a someone who cripple someone else's leg because his leg is better than yours. That's not how you survive,that's how to be a psychopath bitch for the whole tower.

I never liked her and will never do that even if SIU brings up some silly sad backstory for her,my hate shall never reduce even a bit for her.

She is disgusting. Useless. Distrustful. Can betray you anytime. The type i hate most.

just die please i don't want to see baam change or what. We saw how SIU fucked up everything he built up till now. When baam takes a step to front SIU makes him take three step back. I don't think there is a problem with Baam in here,SIU always hated baam and will contunie to be,he literally forgets the upragade in baam's mentality. He is really taking a shit way in here for baam just for plot.

 

[King Dryst]

Agreed the whole thing about sympathizing with her seems disgusting to me and should be to all the people.

I sell innocent people into slavery at least three times a week. Can totally relate.

 

[Wha]

I don't know. I actually hate Rachel as a character, which makes her a great antagonist for me. She is like everybody else but at the same time fundamentally different.

Her main drive seems to be to see the stars - and to achieve that, she has to climb the tower. To climb the tower, she cheats, kills and lies. That's practically the standard procedure for regulars to go threw.

We have seen the fate of weak chars that rely on their team - Wangnan's friend that died on the 20th floor by example.
Rachel is different. With her, the roles are reversed. She is like a leech that throws the useful guys away after she made them useless.
She might very well be the first person that weak to go up the tower that fast.

She is also an Irregular among Irregulars. Normally, the tower opens it's doors for the things it needs.
This "champions" are then tested by the admins to go up the tower.

Rachel is different. It looked like it was Bam that opened the door for her.
She also failed the first test, which should be required to climb the tower further.
Instead, Headon makes a deal with her and even gives her akryang as some kind of bodyguard (at the beginning).

Everything about Rachels climb is out of the norm. And her character might look easy to understand, but if you look closer, it's not that easy at all.
She kinda looks like the person that easily holds a grudge and acts petty, but at the same time, she doesn't need a second to let bygones be bygones (Wangnan), if she thinks it helps her agenda.

And there is still the thing with Arlene & Bam. I think that there is a twist coming.

 

[Demonspeed]

When I was younger I think I hated Rachel but now I am indifferent to her. I love her as a villain though because she makes me feel something.

And I love how she is becoming a personal enemy of several Regulars like A.A., Androssi(especially these two) and Wangnan. I like her relationship with Yura too.

 

[Wha]

Agreed the whole thing about sympathizing with her seems disgusting to me and should be to all the people.

I don't know about that. In my reality people with some of Rachel's characteristics are pretty common. Disgust? At the beginning perhaps, but it's just how the world roles. Annoyed would be the better term. But even that starts to fade. Not that i am tolerating it, i am just not surprised any more.
I don't sympathize, but i understand (most of the time).
It's part of being a human.
Greedy, selfish hypocrites are more often encountered than selfless, Jesus like figures.

Oh and it's always someone else that's responsible. Themselves? No way.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Rachel?
Rachel exudes raw sex appeal.
<---

Look out Adori.

 

[King Dryst]

Rachel exudes raw sex appeal.

The kind of raw that's been left out in the sun for a week, maybe.

 

[Demonspeed]

Rachel?
Rachel exudes raw sex appeal.
<---

Look out Adori.

Didn't know Baam was on this site .

 

[Wha]

Rachel?
Rachel exudes raw sex appeal.
<---

Look out Adori.

Jokes aside - she does sit in the pole position though.
Many sons end up with a wife that resembles their mother in some way.
Rachel is some kind of mother figure for Bam, so......

 

[King Dryst]

Didn't know Baam was on this site .

Didn't he actually say that she wasn't that good looking back in Season One?

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

That Rachel elicits such strong responses shows how good of a character she is. Not 'good' as in 'she has a good character' but good as in 'she IS a good character'. Good as in successful.

Bad characters are those that are easily forgotten, or that you don't feel anything about.

Kind of like the opposite of love isn't hate (you're still thinking about them), it is apathy. Although that's debatable maxim, but you get the idea.

 

[Wha]

That Rachel elicits such strong responses shows how good of a character she is. Not 'good' as in 'she has a good character' but good as in 'she IS a good character'. Good as in successful.

Bad characters are those that are easily forgotten, or that you don't feel anything about.

Kind of like the opposite of love isn't hate (you're still thinking about them), it is apathy. Although that's debatable maxim, but you get the idea.

100 percent agreed. Rachel is an awesome antagonist, which is proven over and over again by all the hate she gets.
Just look at Wrestling. A good heel is someone that get's a massive crowd reaction. You don't need to cheer for him, that's what the faces are for.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Jokes aside - she does sit in the pole position though.
Many sons end up with a wife that resembles their mother in some way.
Rachel is some kind of mother figure for Bam, so......

There's so many interesting psychological issues going on with her character (and with ToG characters in general). BPD, histrionic, psychopathy, sociopathy, etc... she checks many of the personality disorder boxes. THEN, there's the daddy issues, Baam's abandonment and Oedipus complex and so forth in relation to her. Rei is another good study, as is Zahard, Baam, Gustang... pretty much all the irregulars.

Didn't he actually say that she wasn't that good looking back in Season One?

I wonder how many references to her features there have been. SIU has made a point of letting us know she is ugly.

That said, I wonder what she'd look like with the 'princess treatment' - she wears frumpy and baggy clothes, so it's impossible to tell if she has a figure (butter-face), but she does appear skinny and with feminine curves from what you can tell. What would she look like in one of Mas' cocktail dresses?

As for her face.... um. Well, those bangs are 'not it' so a new hairstyle for sure. But, that's just a cut. OK, so freckles. Freckles aren't too bad in of themselves, or at least they don't have to be:

But in any event, that's why god made makeup. She could easily wear new clothes, get a new hairstyle, and some makeup and not be as bad looking as she's made out to be. Also, a tower with the ability to make clones and the like certainly has cosmetic lasering. Remove some of the excess freckles. That's a real thing.

It's not like she has a fucked up grill or is disfigured. It's almost like she WANTS to be frumpy. You know the type. The type that makes a point to not shave their underarms or legs, avoid makeup entire, etc...

(can't believe I'm playing devil's advocate for Rachel sexually here)

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 7, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 7, 2022 ---

Her main drive seems to be to see the stars - and to achieve that, she has to climb the tower. To climb the tower, she cheats, kills and lies. That's practically the standard procedure for regulars to go threw.

I always thought this was a shit excuse, or a rather dumb motivator - to see stars. REAL stars. Whoopdee-flippiing-doo.

We know that they have artificial ones she can see. Those seem to be indistinguishable from the real ones.
We also know this is largely her goal merely because Arlen talked about it. Rachel doesn't even know what she's missing out on. She's likely to get to the top of the tower and see the same night sky she's seen before (artificially-created). Cool. Well worth all the murder and meyhem. Then what?

Imagine wanting something so bad just because someone else mentions something is desirable. 'Hey, my boss said I should try Naan bread, so I'm going to go kill a bunch of people until I do!'

But, sure enough, these are her own thoughts and she's not putting on a show about seeing stars as a motivator. I can't remember the exact chapters, but she is shown thinking about the prospect to herself, and even dreaming about it IIRC.

Although, she could be in denial and self-convinced that it is the stars that she wants, as opposed to being loved, desired, powerful, and noticed. Having a goal that glosses over your shit character traits and selfish desires is easier to think about, and justify your actions by.

akryang as some kind of bodyguard (at the beginning).

I do wonder what his fate is, as one of the more mysterious figures - and one inextricably tied to Rachel (at least early on as you point out). I think the team with Akryung/Apple and the others will meet back up with Rachel if they haven't already.

Akryung was obviously included to make up for Rachel's weaknesses (like Baam getting sun powers, the spiny lobster, thryssas, and even thorns), but I doubt that she's overcome being so weak. They are like the brawns and the brains, so as such I'm sure they'll find each other again to keep climbing.

I also think Gustang is at some level working with FUG (directly or indirectly) and/or Headon who is loosely working with FUG (putting them all in a similar camp one way or another) so I doubt he'll be against having a special weapon on his ship. Fingers crossed to see Akryung again soon as well now that Rachel is back in focus.

 

[Wha]

But in any event, that's why god made makeup.

I laughed so hard when i read this haha. Saved my day

She could easily wear new clothes, get a new hairstyle, and some makeup and not be as bad looking as she's made out to be. Also, a tower with the ability to make clones and the like certainly has cosmetic lasering. Remove some of the excess freckles. That's a real thing.

It's not like she has a fucked up grill or is disfigured. It's almost like she WANTS to be frumpy. You know the type. The type that makes a point to not shave their underarms or legs, avoid makeup entire, etc...

Maybe it's like wanting to loose some weight, but not wanting to put in the extra miles to get there. So maybe Gustang actually did offer to help her out, but she had to sacrifice something, which she refused.


One of my ex Girfriends was like that.
"I need to loose some weight".
"Then eat more healthy"
"Healthy doesn't taste good"
"then eat less"
"But i don't wanna be hungry"
"Then make some sport"
"But sport is sooo tiring"

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 7, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 7, 2022 ---

I always thought this was a shit excuse, or a rather dumb motivator - to see stars. REAL stars. Whoopdee-flippiing-doo.

We know that they have artificial ones she can see. Those seem to be indistinguishable from the real ones.
We also know this is largely her goal merely because Arlen talked about it. Rachel doesn't even know what she's missing out on. She's likely to get to the top of the tower and see the same night sky she's seen before (artificially-created). Cool. Well worth all the murder and meyhem. Then what?

Imagine wanting something so bad just because someone else mentions something is desirable. 'Hey, my boss said I should try Naan bread, so I'm going to go kill a bunch of people until I do!'

But, sure enough, these are her own thoughts and she's not putting on a show about seeing stars as a motivator. I can't remember the exact chapters, but she is shown thinking about the prospect to herself, and even dreaming about it IIRC.

Although, she could be in denial and self-convinced that it is the stars that she wants, as opposed to being loved, desired, powerful, and noticed. Having a goal that glosses over your shit character traits and selfish desires is easier to think about, and justify your actions by.

I interpreted that part differently. Since she came from a cave like thing, it might be also a metapher for freedom.
Maybe she knew things about Arlene - if so, she might wonder how beautiful those stars might be that Arlene sacrifices everything for it.

It also reminds me of people that just want to be rich and think that automatically will make them happy.
The Tower would be our society, the top Bill Gates and co. As long as you climb up, anything is possible.


Pretty much agree with the Akryang part.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

... [discussion of antihero status]... clipped

I'll put this here as well, because it is interesting in how SIU describes his characters. Without getting into the nuances of 'what is an antihero?' and 'what is an antivillain?' (as well as traditional protag/antag) - and how specifically that exists in the ToG universe (that could be a whole thread in of itself); the tower is by nature dog-eat-dog, full of shades of grey (everyone kills), and forces a Darwinian existence - if you choose to climb. You cannot simply 'be' and climb the tower. Even those that appear to opt out (Ha Chai, Urek) probably have countless bodycounts before they got to the point they are powerful enough to live a peaceful Thanos-the-Farmer quiet life. And the weak are culled, abused, ground up, and otherwise taken advantage of in various ways and forms of abuse (hey, the Tower is a lot like the real-world...). Anyways, I digress.

SIU describes:

- Baam as a "monster" - Baam does not exactly disagree. We have hints from his backstory and rebirth (being a carcass his mother carried around, ewww) to the his nature of something that simply devours that he may very well be a monster in fact. He's certainly got the Frankenstein's Monster backstory already. And what does this mean if the MC, de facto protag of the story, is a "monster" after all? We also get hints like where Garam left more of the story out and said, essentially, that Baam will have to choose between being successful and keeping his friends. The MC going off the rails isn't exactly a new trope; completely possible that Baam has all that power go to his head and change him (much like probably happened to the OG13). As of now he is naive and working for what he believes are righteous causes, but he's allowed himself to not care how many deaths have to happen for him to achieve his goals, and that is a slippery slope mentality. What if the status quo means less death and destruction than a coup against Zahard? Baam could bring about the end of the Tower for all we know, and that's obviously worse for the inhabitants than how they can operate under current empire.

- Gustang as a "villain" - now, this is debated (see Gustang thread). More than a few say that is a mistranslation (context closer to being that he's unpredictable or subversive). Others (like me) point out the context is lost as Gustang is going against empire ("One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter") - same as Baam, same as FUG which is full of evil entities but fighting a (purportedly) righteous cause against an Evil Empire. In any event, Gustang may or may not turn against Baam but as of right now he is HELPING Baam, the MC. He also benefits from Baam's actions, and they have a symbiotic relationship. Baam, a monster, and a protagonist of the story, is alligned with a so-called "villain" in Gustang for similar/same end goals (as he is with FUG, the terrorists of the tower). Perspective and context are key.

Now, as the two former pertain to this thread:

- Rachel as "a protagonist." He says this in his own words/blogs, and via Headon as well. And yet, she is shown to be detestable, and evil-lite . SIU makes it a point to say she is not a 'heroine' but a protagonist (THE female protagonist - although counterpoint he also says this about Yuri) all the same. This gets into semantics (again, what is a protagonist, and specifically what is a protagonist in the universe of the tower?). She is obviously someone he plans to use to drive the story. He also throws 'protagonist' around a lot - I think he describes Wangnan as a protag as well. Baam, Rachel, Yuri, Wangnan... you could also count AA/Rak, why not the whole lot of 'em...



Anywho. Based more on their ACTIONS and how we perceive each as noble/righteous/ethical (at least in Tower terms) or not, it's almost as if SIU is being coy and using subtle wordplay (actions and descriptors do not currently, if ever, match up). We cannot take him at his word verbatim, seemingly, and at current rate, for things like "protagonist" or "monster" or "terrorist" or "villain" or whatever because SIU is laughing behind our backs if we do.

So calling Rachel a "protagonist" could mean fuck-all, as it seems to currently mean.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 7, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 7, 2022 ---

I interpreted that part differently. Since she came from a cave like thing, it might be also a metapher for freedom.
Maybe she knew things about Arlene - if so, she might wonder how beautiful those stars might be that Arlene sacrifices everything for it.

It could be a metaphor, sure, and I think it is. But, she obviously wants the kind of 'freedom' with her conveniently on top - again, metaphorically (power-wise/fame-wise) and quite literally (the actual top of the tower). That convenience factor means, to me, that she's just another selfish, power-hungry individual and she's justifying her actions using something as innocuous as 'wanting to see the stars'. Every villain ever seem to justify their shitty behavior and actions (well, some are honest and just want to see the world burn for the hell of it).

That said, I'm pretty sure she has had literal dreams of seeing the stars (I can't recall the chapters but obviously earlier, S1). So it is just as much an actual, physical and literal goal as it is a stand-in metaphor representing true freedom for her.

Hell, she already has made it out of the cave system and into the tower - freedom achieved! Each floor is continent-sized. And (other than perhaps 1F, 2F, 43F, and 133F) she could have lifetimes of freedoms in a place the size of multiple real-world Earths.

But, no, that's not good enough, she wants to be 'on top' to see the stars because someone she's obsessive over (people simply cannot let shit go) once made an aside about how beautiful they are. Doing so just so happens to crush real lives to elevate her desires.




Her obsession isn't really too different from Baam's obsession over Rachel though (later displaced onto Jinsung, lol Stockholm Syndrome). His thoughts were informed and influenced by Rachel's caretaking in the caves at a young (old?) age. Even when Baam had other, real friends and Rachel made it apparent she is no longer in that role he just couldn't seem to move on. Adult children. Mentally at least.

But then we have Gustang still pining for Blossom and Zahard stuck on Arlen (tens and tens of thousands of years later) and Rei moping about because someone once betrayed him, etc.

Move on with your lives...

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 7, 2022 ---

Maybe it's like wanting to loose some weight, but not wanting to put in the extra miles to get there. So maybe Gustang actually did offer to help her out, but she had to sacrifice something, which she refused.

Imagine having 3 genie wishes. Instead of wasting one on looks, you could put in a BARE MINIMUM of effort first. Makeup is cheap. Cosmetic lasering is affordable. Clothes and hair... well, even poor people can put in effort there. Basic grooming and styling first. Exhaust the simple steps before going drastic/under the knife/wasting a third of your wishes. But noooooooo

Let's just see what could be done here, body:

I mean.... she's clearly skinny and ample-bosomed (enough). That's 90% there already. She is just in frumpy shit clothes all the time. It's not like she's built like a sack of potatoes. She's not matronly per se, she just dresses that way. She even looks like she might be just as athletic and well-proportioned as any of the other ToG desirables.

Face:

OK, this is obviously her weak point. Even being a butterface can get you further than being a pretty-faced manatee in some cases.

But... what can be done (absent god-tier work by Gustang via a wasted wish)?

Hair - shave it off and get a sex-pot wig. Or just grow it out and put in any effort into it at all. Shit. She looks like a dog-faced pony soldier. But, this is just a matter of grooming, so hair alone isn't keeping her back from looking better. It's not like she has alopecia.
Thin lips - injections, lipstick, done. Use restraint so not as to have the duck-lips look, and she's already on her way in conjunction with the hair.
Freckles - as previously-mentioned; a little makeup would go a long way. Or, again, lasering. Or just own them and address the other more-glaring problems.
That eye situation - well, those eyes are pretty mundane. Yes, they need highlights with the typical eye-makeup worn by females. (shadow, liner, mascara). Color contacts and fake lashes are also pretty affordable and accessible.
Nose - not much hope... rhinoplasty. But it's not like you'd need to waste a wish on that. I'm sure she could have Akryung rob someone and be able to afford this pretty easily enough. Augmentation implants and fillers are common in Asia to 'fix' flatter, thinner noses.

Even if you ignore the actual surgical solutions (rhinoplasty and fillers): makeup makeup makeup. It seems to work for plenty of women the world over. Some better clothes, a trip to the salon/makeup store, and voila. I wish I could photoshop just to see what cat-eyes and lipstick with better hair and a little concealer would look like on her out of morbid curiosity. Then put that on a figure in more flattering clothes. Completely attainable if she just... tried.


There. Infinitely easier than killing your squad and climbing up a planet-sized tower for 100s of years, and no wishes wasted.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 7, 2022 ---

Oh, I just realized her ears are shit too, but those can be covered by her hair.

 

[Aliblack]

I'll put this here as well, because it is interesting in how SIU describes his characters. Without getting into the nuances of 'what is an antihero?' and 'what is an antivillain?' (as well as traditional protag/antag) - and how specifically that exists in the ToG universe (that could be a whole thread in of itself); the tower is by nature dog-eat-dog, full of shades of grey (everyone kills), and forces a Darwinian existence - if you choose to climb. You cannot simply 'be' and climb the tower. Even those that appear to opt out (Ha Chai, Urek) probably have countless bodycounts before they got to the point they are powerful enough to live a peaceful Thanos-the-Farmer quiet life. And the weak are culled, abused, ground up, and otherwise taken advantage of in various ways and forms of abuse (hey, the Tower is a lot like the real-world...). Anyways, I digress.

SIU describes:

- Baam as a "monster" - Baam does not exactly disagree. We have hints from his backstory and rebirth (being a carcass his mother carried around, ewww) to the his nature of something that simply devours that he may very well be a monster in fact. He's certainly got the Frankenstein's Monster backstory already. And what does this mean if the MC, de facto protag of the story, is a "monster" after all? We also get hints like where Garam left more of the story out and said, essentially, that Baam will have to choose between being successful and keeping his friends. The MC going off the rails isn't exactly a new trope; completely possible that Baam has all that power go to his head and change him (much like probably happened to the OG13). As of now he is naive and working for what he believes are righteous causes, but he's allowed himself to not care how many deaths have to happen for him to achieve his goals, and that is a slippery slope mentality. What if the status quo means less death and destruction than a coup against Zahard? Baam could bring about the end of the Tower for all we know, and that's obviously worse for the inhabitants than how they can operate under current empire.

- Gustang as a "villain" - now, this is debated (see Gustang thread). More than a few say that is a mistranslation (context closer to being that he's unpredictable or subversive). Others (like me) point out the context is lost as Gustang is going against empire ("One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter") - same as Baam, same as FUG which is full of evil entities but fighting a (purportedly) righteous cause against an Evil Empire. In any event, Gustang may or may not turn against Baam but as of right now he is HELPING Baam, the MC. He also benefits from Baam's actions, and they have a symbiotic relationship. Baam, a monster, and a protagonist of the story, is alligned with a so-called "villain" in Gustang for similar/same end goals (as he is with FUG, the terrorists of the tower). Perspective and context are key.

Now, as the two former pertain to this thread:

- Rachel as "a protagonist." He says this in his own words/blogs, and via Headon as well. And yet, she is shown to be detestable, and evil-lite . SIU makes it a point to say she is not a 'heroine' but a protagonist (THE female protagonist - although counterpoint he also says this about Yuri) all the same. This gets into semantics (again, what is a protagonist, and specifically what is a protagonist in the universe of the tower?). She is obviously someone he plans to use to drive the story. He also throws 'protagonist' around a lot - I think he describes Wangnan as a protag as well. Baam, Rachel, Yuri, Wangnan... you could also count AA/Rak, why not the whole lot of 'em...



Anywho. Based more on their ACTIONS and how we perceive each as noble/righteous/ethical (at least in Tower terms) or not, it's almost as if SIU is being coy and using subtle wordplay (actions and descriptors do not currently, if ever, match up). We cannot take him at his word verbatim, seemingly, and at current rate, for things like "protagonist" or "monster" or "terrorist" or "villain" or whatever because SIU is laughing behind our backs if we do.

So calling Rachel a "protagonist" could mean fuck-all, as it seems to currently mean.

Yes, I've thought about what villain, for example, means in SIU's words. And I should agree with you. SIU has intended to create a morally grey world in which it's hard to distinguish between bad and good, right and wrong. I don't think he's been always successful in this, but more or less I assume it's grey. And that's why I said in the post that I might understand it differently from him.
However, when we analyze a text, I believe our primary concern should be the text itself, not what the author has intended. The text is independent and can be understood differently by the author. After all, there can be more than one reading of the text, and even some readings might be more valid than the author's reading. SIU understands Rachel as a heroine. This may be because he has information we don't have access to. At the end of the story, I may come to the conclusion that no, she was an antagonist or villain overall. The reason I used SIU's words was that I thought she might be not an antagonist at the end of the story. There is some evidence but not enough to decide yet. So I used SIU's words as some kind of foreshadowing. I wouldn't use it if I thought she was a villain. I don't think she is. Morally speaking, many other guys have done more horrible things. She might surpass them in this regard because she's still new in the tower and hasn't gotten many opportunities.
And about the meaning of the villain, as far as I know, the villain's most important characteristic is he does immoral and criminal actions and can be judged as a bad person. I've seen many consider someone a villain if he's only against the protagonist. But I've also seen some have even said that protagonist can be the villain. In the latter sense, he's not against himself unless he suffers from an identity dissociative disorder. What does SIU mean by the villain? SIU sees Yasratcha as being less of a villain but more like Yama's rival. He hasn't excluded his being a villain but I think it's safe that he doesn't see him like that. The reason could be one or two of them altogether: 1: Yas was not against Yama and he was trying to protect them. 2: He's morally grey according to SIU (I don't think he is).
TOG has good material to talk about ethical discussions. Whether they are really grey or not? It has some cases that involve what philosophers call ethical dilemmas. What does determine the goodness of a person? His actions or his intention or both? Does intention have any role in determining the right or wrong of actions? It would be good to discuss them in other threads.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Yes, I've thought about what villain, for example, means in SIU's words. And I should agree with you. SIU has intended to create a morally grey world in which it's hard to distinguish between bad and good, right and wrong. I don't think he's been always successful in this, but more or less I assume it's grey. And that's why I said in the post that I might understand it differently from him.
However, when we analyze a text, I believe our primary concern should be the text itself, not what the author has intended. The text is independent and can be understood differently by the author. After all, there can be more than one reading of the text, and even some readings might be more valid than the author's reading. SIU understands Rachel as a heroine. This may be because he has information we don't have access to. At the end of the story, I may come to the conclusion that no, she was an antagonist or villain overall. The reason I used SIU's words was that I thought she might be not an antagonist at the end of the story. There is some evidence but not enough to decide yet. So I used SIU's words as some kind of foreshadowing. I wouldn't use it if I thought she was a villain. I don't think she is. Morally speaking, many other guys have done more horrible things. She might surpass them in this regard because she's still new in the tower and hasn't gotten many opportunities.
And about the meaning of the villain, as far as I know, the villain's most important characteristic is he does immoral and criminal actions and can be judged as a bad person. I've seen many consider someone a villain if he's only against the protagonist. But I've also seen some have even said that protagonist can be the villain. In the latter sense, he's not against himself unless he suffers from an identity dissociative disorder. What does SIU mean by the villain? SIU sees Yasratcha as being less of a villain but more like Yama's rival. He hasn't excluded his being a villain but I think it's safe that he doesn't see him like that. The reason could be one or two of them altogether: 1: Yas was not against Yama and he was trying to protect them. 2: He's morally grey according to SIU (I don't think he is).
TOG has good material to talk about ethical discussions. Whether they are really grey or not? It has some cases that involve what philosophers call ethical dilemmas. What does determine the goodness of a person? His actions or his intention or both? Does intention have any role in determining the right or wrong of actions? It would be good to discuss them in other threads.

I'm not disagreeing, to be clear.

I just think *when* as a snapshot in time is important, like you do, because we don't yet know the end game like SIU does (*if* he even does).

As such, Gustang for instance is not *currently* a villain - he's helping the MC in a fair exchange. They seem to share similar goals, and similar allies. But, there are many that believe that he's a villain simply because SIU says as much, and it's as simple as that without any nuance or context at all. Fine, but... he's not. OK, so will he be in the future? That is not ruled out either. Maybe just before Baam takes Zahard, Gustang moves to rip out the full thorn to use it himself. Or even after Zahard is deposed Gustang becomes the 'twist' big bad. Or a million other permutations. As of right now though he's feeding Baam thorns. I said this in the Gustang thread, but we wouldn't say Griffith was a villain if we only knew the story of Berserk prior to the events in Eclipse. Looking back, it's easy to say he is a villain in hindsight, because we have the luxury of a complete (ish; now we will be getting more material!) timeline that we did not have back then. Similar to ToG, Gustang is currently not villainous - towards Baam at least. Towards empire he certainly is; but then again so is Baam and FUG. Gustang could have stomped Baam out of existence a mulititude of times, and yet he keeps giving him an assist.

That is applicable to Rachel as we do not yet know her final form (literal if she gets a physical change, or metaphorically if she later becomes a Baam ally, or even applifies her antagonism towards him and embraces true evil).

Then, there's this:

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 8, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 8, 2022 ---

But as to whether we are reliant on the material itself, standing on its own, or the intent from the author known only from his notes and hints, I'd obviously (personally) defer to the material alone. They don't always seem to be in alignment. But that's just me. Yes, his notes are technically an expansion of canon - for what they're worth.

I think his notes/blogs though do show that he intends to be coy and impossible to nail down on about damn near everything. He goes out of his way to obfuscate, and literally says "hehehe" in reference to himself being coy with his non-answers that are supposed to elaborate on the story.

It's frustrating to the point of almost being useless reading them. Although there have been some juicy morsels every now and then. They (the blogs) used to be better. Now it's just him waxing on about Korean weather and holidays, his health, and thinking out loud like:

All that to say I do think he's intending to create a morally-ambiguous environment. I'm not sure if he loses focus for all the pew-pew fights as of late though.