Discussion Ranking the Irregulars

[syx]

I don't think the 10 great leaders are as powerful as Enryu to come near killing the admins. Enryu is an odd case in which i am kind a surprised almost always that the tower which doesn't know what an exis is and keeps Phanta no 1 while Enryu no 2. Phanta at best killed say 100 high ranker. Big deal Enryu killed a whole frigging guardian.
It would have been sensible if 2-3 family head were killed zahard ran for his life etc for Phanta to be no 1

That's actually a good point you brought up here. If we look at what we were told, Enryu's feat seems to be (far) greater than Phantaminum's. But this perspective may change once we get more information about Phantaminum's assualt on Zahard's palace. While the incident on the 43rd Floor seems pretty "straightforward", the aussault on Zahard's palace is shrouded in mysteries. We don't know whom Phantaminum fought, what kind of op-ness he displayed and why he didn't fight Zahard when he met him. In that regard, the Ranking Administration Office (RAO) seems to know much more than we do for now, thus ranking Phantaminum above Enryu. This is further proven by this fact:

ToG Wiki:

There is a fun story from the rank giving process: there was a time when Urek Mazino, who had a complaint about his rank being lower than Phantaminum's, broke into the Ranker Administration Office, captured Aisand and threatened him to raise his rank. To Urek, who asked "Have you ever seen me fight Phantaminum?" Aisand answered briefly and without hesitation "You would be the loser". Urek Mazino, shocked, could do nothing but go home bitterly.

So, they indeed know much more about the incident than SIU has told us so far. If someone casually says to Urek's face that he won't stand a chance against Phantaminum, then they were surely impressed by Phantaminum's power.

By the way, SIU also implied that it was a very tough call within the RAO to put Phantaminum on the first place, which means that the RAO doesn't see much of a big difference in power between Enryu and Phantaminum.

 

[kkck]

That's actually a good point you brought up here. If we look at what we were told, Enryu's feat seems to be (far) greater than Phantaminum's. But this perspective may change once we get more information about Phantaminum's assualt on Zahard's palace. While the incident on the 43rd Floor seems pretty "straightforward", the aussault on Zahard's palace is shrouded in mysteries. We don't know whom Phantaminum fought, what kind of op-ness he displayed and why he didn't fight Zahard when he met him. In that regard, the Ranking Administration Office (RAO) seems to know much more than we do for now, thus ranking Phantaminum above Enryu. This is further proven by this fact:

ToG Wiki:

So, they indeed know much more about the incident than SIU has told us so far. If someone casually says to Urek's face that he won't stand a chance against Phantaminum, then they were surely impressed by Phantaminum's power.

By the way, SIU also implied that it was a very tough call within the RAO to put Phantaminum on the first place, which means that the RAO doesn't see much of a big difference in power between Enryu and Phantaminum.

Maybe it's because the workshop, somehow, also exists outside the tower? Since they have a connection to the ouside world perhaps it makes sense they would know about a being from out there. It would also work as a bit of a loophole with what SIU said regarding people in the tower not knowing about phantaminum being an axis in a way. I wonder if the fact that the workshop exists outside the tower suggests that there could be other irregulars within the tower that work through the workshop....

In any case, I am not sure of what would this amount to, it doesn't seem to make a difference to the plot as far as I can tell. I mean, phantaminum even having a rank is redundant to begin with given his status as ommipotent god. And even then, if it is true that it was a tough choice for the ranking guys to decide between enryu and phantaminum then it would seem like they specifically knew squat about phantaminum to begin with.

Dang, I am rambling a bit... Anyways, I don't think this makes much of a difference in any way. He doesn't seem like he will have a role in the story for the time being and even then, if how strong the guy is becomes relevant to the plot that is not something meaningful to us as readers because we know how much power phantaminum has: as much as he damn pleases. Even if this is brought up in the story we know phantaminum is infinitely more powerful than the strongest being in the tower multiplied by a billion billion...

Realistically speaking, the only way this is actually relevant as a whole is that enryu himself is also an axis. Which would be an interesting bit of information though I have no clue as to how it would relate to the plot as a whole. Crackpot thought: the thorn would be related (or be) what makes people into axis'. It already grants bam the ability to bullshit levels of shinsoo manipulation which within TOG is the equivalent to ruling over matter.

 

[Demonspeed]

SIU confirmed that Enryu is not an Axis, Phantaminum is the only one who appeared. And in a battle, ¨Phantaminum would win obviously.

 

[Jammin]

For some reason, despite knowing almost nothing about Phantaminum, I imagine him just walking through all of Zahards security and defenses like he doesn't even notice them. Having a little chat, then walking away. Like everything that doesn't interest him is irrelevant and beneath his notice and nothing is strong enough to threaten or effect him.

I don't know if that mental picture is going to be accurate or not but that's the kind of entity I picture him as. Because it seems like Zahard would be dead otherwise.

My imagined version of Enryu is something more angry and emotional. I mean, to kill a floor guardian? And we've seen how messed up this floor is because of it. Why does somebody do that? To me that suggests someone more arrogant or unstable.

 

[syx]

Maybe it's because the workshop, somehow, also exists outside the tower? Since they have a connection to the ouside world perhaps it makes sense they would know about a being from out there. It would also work as a bit of a loophole with what SIU said regarding people in the tower not knowing about phantaminum being an axis in a way. I wonder if the fact that the workshop exists outside the tower suggests that there could be other irregulars within the tower that work through the workshop....

In any case, I am not sure of what would this amount to, it doesn't seem to make a difference to the plot as far as I can tell. I mean, phantaminum even having a rank is redundant to begin with given his status as ommipotent god. And even then, if it is true that it was a tough choice for the ranking guys to decide between enryu and phantaminum then it would seem like they specifically knew squat about phantaminum to begin with.

Dang, I am rambling a bit... Anyways, I don't think this makes much of a difference in any way. He doesn't seem like he will have a role in the story for the time being and even then, if how strong the guy is becomes relevant to the plot that is not something meaningful to us as readers because we know how much power phantaminum has: as much as he damn pleases. Even if this is brought up in the story we know phantaminum is infinitely more powerful than the strongest being in the tower multiplied by a billion billion...

Realistically speaking, the only way this is actually relevant as a whole is that enryu himself is also an axis. Which would be an interesting bit of information though I have no clue as to how it would relate to the plot as a whole. Crackpot thought: the thorn would be related (or be) what makes people into axis'. It already grants bam the ability to bullshit levels of shinsoo manipulation which within TOG is the equivalent to ruling over matter.

I was not aware of the fact that the Workshop also exists outside the Tower. Seems like I missed this important information somehow. You know, Phantaminum is said to have used a weapon never seen before in the Tower, so it's highly likely that he received said weapon from the Workshop outside of the Tower. Other than that, I don't see the connection between the Workshop and the ranking of the RAO. SIU kept the number of Irregulars within the Tower a secret, so it's not far-fetched that there are Irregulars working for the Workshop or even for Zahard himself.

I wouldn't say the RAO didn't know squat about Phantaminum. This view only stems from the believe that Phantaminum was already an Axis during his assault on Zahard's Palace. But we don't know this for sure. It's also possible - and in my opinion more likely - that Phantaminum was just a "mere" Irregular at that time. I may repeat myself over and over again and it may annoy you guys, but if Phantaminum was an Axis at this time, there was no need for him to enter Zahard's Palace in the first place.

As Demonspeed said, SIU stated that Enryu is not an Axis.

For some reason, despite knowing almost nothing about Phantaminum, I imagine him just walking through all of Zahards security and defenses like he doesn't even notice them. Having a little chat, then walking away. Like everything that doesn't interest him is irrelevant and beneath his notice and nothing is strong enough to threaten or effect him.

I don't know if that mental picture is going to be accurate or not but that's the kind of entity I picture him as. Because it seems like Zahard would be dead otherwise.

My imagined version of Enryu is something more angry and emotional. I mean, to kill a floor guardian? And we've seen how messed up this floor is because of it. Why does somebody do that? To me that suggests someone more arrogant or unstable.

Dunno... if Phantaminum wasn't an Axis back then, I don't think the idea of Zahard not being able to hold a candle against him can be said that easily.

Regarding Enryu: It's quite funny that Phantaminum is described as the "messy/dirty" one, while Enryu is kinda put in a positive light as a "handsome" guy with a beautiful/graceful fighting style. But as you said, killing a Guardian and fucking up a whole floor sounds much more aggressive than killing some bodyguards of Zahard and leaving the place without crossing swords with Zahard.

As a side-note: Do you guys think Zahard is still invincible on the 43rd Floor? Without a Guardian, there are no "active" contracts, thus a Regular should theoretically be able to kill him!?

 

[kkck]

I was not aware of the fact that the Workshop also exists outside the Tower. Seems like I missed this important information somehow. You know, Phantaminum is said to have used a weapon never seen before in the Tower, so it's highly likely that he received said weapon from the Workshop outside of the Tower. Other than that, I don't see the connection between the Workshop and the ranking of the RAO. SIU kept the number of Irregulars within the Tower a secret, so it's not far-fetched that there are Irregulars working for the Workshop or even for Zahard himself.

I wouldn't say the RAO didn't know squat about Phantaminum. This view only stems from the believe that Phantaminum was already an Axis during his assault on Zahard's Palace. But we don't know this for sure. It's also possible - and in my opinion more likely - that Phantaminum was just a "mere" Irregular at that time. I may repeat myself over and over again and it may annoy you guys, but if Phantaminum was an Axis at this time, there was no need for him to enter Zahard's Palace in the first place.

As Demonspeed said, SIU stated that Enryu is not an Axis.

Well, if he is an axis then he could as well have made the weapon himself. He functions as a god whose agenda is unknown to us...

I would find it weird if he was an axis after the zahard incident. I would argue that even for a powerful irregular doing what he did is kind of a miracle to begin with. It makes more sense that he was an axis at this point in the story. According to the wiki, phantaminum was originally a normal human being and got awakened into an axis. Does him being a normal human being make sense with him being able to walk into zahard's palace, beat the crap out of as many people as he wanted to and then just leave? If he had entered as a normal irregular then he would have had to climb the floors normally.

 

[syx]

Well, if he is an axis then he could as well have made the weapon himself. He functions as a god whose agenda is unknown to us...

I would find it weird if he was an axis after the zahard incident. I would argue that even for a powerful irregular doing what he did is kind of a miracle to begin with. It makes more sense that he was an axis at this point in the story. According to the wiki, phantaminum was originally a normal human being and got awakened into an axis. Does him being a normal human being make sense with him being able to walk into zahard's palace, beat the crap out of as many people as he wanted to and then just leave? If he had entered as a normal irregular then he would have had to climb the floors normally.

Of course he could have created that weapon himself, if he was an Axis back then. See, the difference between my view and the view of others is:

• I do believe Phantaminum was just a normal human being when he entered the Tower
• I do believe he climbed the Tower like any other Regular/Irregular
  
• Even as an Irregular, he was exceptional, thus being able to successfully storm Zahard's Palace for whatever reason. I don't see why this should be impossible. If Zahard can comfortably beat Arie Hon, I do believe that an outstanding Irregular could annihilate the obstacles at Zahard's Palace.

Why I do have problems with Phantaminum being an Axis before he attacked Zahard's Palace:
Maybe I have just a wrong imagination of what an Axis is and what an Axis is able to do, but from what I read so far, an Axis like Phantaminum has no reason to appear anywhere or even put up a fight against inferior beings who can't affect him in any way, shape or form. He should be able to kill anyone with his mere thought. This is a guy who can instantly destroy the Tower, there is no way he needs to appear in front of Zahard's minions and swing his weapon left and right. If he only wanted to talk with Zahard (I'm aware we don't know what the purpose of his attack was), he should be able to just teleport himself in front of Zahard or teleport Zahrd and himself to a quite place.

 

[kkck]

Of course he could have created that weapon himself, if he was an Axis back then. See, the difference between my view and the view of others is:

• I do believe Phantaminum was just a normal human being when he entered the Tower
• I do believe he climbed the Tower like any other Regular/Irregular
  
• Even as an Irregular, he was exceptional, thus being able to successfully storm Zahard's Palace for whatever reason. I don't see why this should be impossible. If Zahard can comfortably beat Arie Hon, I do believe that an outstanding Irregular could annihilate the obstacles at Zahard's Palace.

Why I do have problems with Phantaminum being an Axis before he attacked Zahard's Palace:
Maybe I have just a wrong imagination of what an Axis is and what an Axis is able to do, but from what I read so far, an Axis like Phantaminum has no reason to appear anywhere or even put up a fight against inferior beings who can't affect him in any way, shape or form. He should be able to kill anyone with his mere thought. This is a guy who can instantly destroy the Tower, there is no way he needs to appear in front of Zahard's minions and swing his weapon left and right. If he only wanted to talk with Zahard (I'm aware we don't know what the purpose of his attack was), he should be able to just teleport himself in front of Zahard or teleport Zahrd and himself to a quite place.

Well, but on the other hand the implication so far is that phantaminum never really climbed the tower. phantaminum was unknown when he made it to zahard's palace. What is being said here is that he literally just appeared there, nonchalantly defeated everything he came across of and then had a chat with zahard and disappeared. And even then, a normal human being could not just do this. As in, defeating every security measure at zahards home and then just disappearing is not something a normal human being could do. The only instance of someone "normal" we have in the tower is when bam entered and evan referred to him as "normal".... As to phanta doing what you suggested, I would think he absolutely could have done that if he wanted to. So the issue here is that he simply wanted to do things the way he did them for reasons unknown to us. For all we know, there wasn't even a reason. Maybe he just wanted to saw hi to his old buddy jahad and make fun of him because he was king of a tiny tower he could erase with a thought while he was a god.

 

[syx]

Well, but on the other hand the implication so far is that phantaminum never really climbed the tower. phantaminum was unknown when he made it to zahard's palace. What is being said here is that he literally just appeared there, nonchalantly defeated everything he came across of and then had a chat with zahard and disappeared. And even then, a normal human being could not just do this. As in, defeating every security measure at zahards home and then just disappearing is not something a normal human being could do. The only instance of someone "normal" we have in the tower is when bam entered and evan referred to him as "normal".... As to phanta doing what you suggested, I would think he absolutely could have done that if he wanted to. So the issue here is that he simply wanted to do things the way he did them for reasons unknown to us. For all we know, there wasn't even a reason. Maybe he just wanted to saw hi to his old buddy jahad and make fun of him because he was king of a tiny tower he could erase with a thought while he was a god.

I think SIU never made it clear whether Phantaminum climbed the Tower or not and the wiki translation - which are surerly not that accurate - could be interpreted in both ways.

For example, in Enryu's wiki page it is said that Phantaminum "entered" the Tower, which in my view kinda implies that he climbed the Tower. On the other hand, the wiki page of Phantaminum states that he suddenly appeared in the Tower and broke into Zahard's Palace. This sounds more like he just appeared out of nowhere. However, why would you say he suddenly appeared in the Tower and broke into Zahard's Palace. Wouldn't it be more precise to just say that he suddenly appeared at Zahard's Palace? Again, I'm just working with what we have. I'm aware that these translation should be taken with a grain of salt and it's also possible that we interpret way too much into those phrases/words, while SIU never cared for such details in the first place. But ultimately, I can't make much sense of Phantaminum's attack, if he was indeed an Axis. Yes, maybe Phantaminum did attack Zahard's Palace, because well why not? But that sounds really childish. But who am I to judge? Being a god should be only fun at the beginning.

By the way, with a "normal human being" I'm referring - in Phantaminum's case - to a non-Axis Irregular, like Urek or Enryu. And I think the likes of Urek or Enryu are surely capable to wreak havoc at Zahard's Palace.

 

[kkck]

I think SIU never made it clear whether Phantaminum climbed the Tower or not and the wiki translation - which are surerly not that accurate - could be interpreted in both ways.

For example, in Enryu's wiki page it is said that Phantaminum "entered" the Tower, which in my view kinda implies that he climbed the Tower. On the other hand, the wiki page of Phantaminum states that he suddenly appeared in the Tower and broke into Zahard's Palace. This sounds more like he just appeared out of nowhere. However, why would you say he suddenly appeared in the Tower and broke into Zahard's Palace. Wouldn't it be more precise to just say that he suddenly appeared at Zahard's Palace? Again, I'm just working with what we have. I'm aware that these translation should be taken with a grain of salt and it's also possible that we interpret way too much into those phrases/words, while SIU never cared for such details in the first place. But ultimately, I can't make much sense of Phantaminum's attack, if he was indeed an Axis. Yes, maybe Phantaminum did attack Zahard's Palace, because well why not? But that sounds really childish. But who am I to judge? Being a god should be only fun at the beginning.

By the way, with a "normal human being" I'm referring - in Phantaminum's case - to a non-Axis Irregular, like Urek or Enryu. And I think the likes of Urek or Enryu are surely capable to wreak havoc at Zahard's Palace.

Honestly, I can't imagine them climbing the tower and getting to the top while being unknown.... Well, I guess phantaminum could have potentially hidden himself perfectly as a normal regular but enryu is a different story. The entire tower system is meant to filter out potential threats, to identify regulars... I can't fathom these guys climbing the tower normally without ever attracting any attention to themselves.

 

[syx]

Honestly, I can't imagine them climbing the tower and getting to the top while being unknown.... Well, I guess phantaminum could have potentially hidden himself perfectly as a normal regular but enryu is a different story. The entire tower system is meant to filter out potential threats, to identify regulars... I can't fathom these guys climbing the tower normally without ever attracting any attention to themselves.

They could have taken the test from the Guardian of the respective floor to stay unknown or posed as Regulars. We don't know when Enryu killed the Guardian of the 43rd Floor. It's possible that he killed the Guardian after he became a Ranker. I skimmed through Phantaminum's wiki page and it is said that the RAO debated over whether to give Phantaminum the first rank or not. If Phantaminum never climbed the Tower, shouldn't the debate be about whether to include him in the rankings or not, since only people who have climbed the Tower receive a ranking? Dunno, seems like we have to agree to disagree. There is not much I can add anyway.

 

[Demon Hunter]

Dunno... if Phantaminum wasn't an Axis back then, I don't think the idea of Zahard not being able to hold a candle against him can be said that easily.

Regarding Enryu: It's quite funny that Phantaminum is described as the "messy/dirty" one, while Enryu is kinda put in a positive light as a "handsome" guy with a beautiful/graceful fighting style. But as you said, killing a Guardian and fucking up a whole floor sounds much more aggressive than killing some bodyguards of Zahard and leaving the place without crossing swords with Zahard.

As a side-note: Do you guys think Zahard is still invincible on the 43rd Floor? Without a Guardian, there are no "active" contracts, thus a Regular should theoretically be able to kill him!?

the thing is, Enryu killed Zahard's followers.

the Guardian got angry and attacked Enryu who killed him.

he didn't just come in and said Hey, I don't like. I will kill you.

anyway
1. Phantaminum
2. Enryu
3. Jahad
4. Urek
5. Baam

 

[Demonspeed]

How strong do you think Rachel is right now with her manta ray?

 

[Jammin]

That's a pretty good question. I see Rachel as still being pretty weak but having a super OP ranged attack that works independent of her but that's all she's got. Kinda like if Baam had his powerful ranged attacks but none of his physical abilities.

I don't know where to rank that.

 

[syx]

Rachel herself is not that powerful in my opinion. Okay, she was praised as a Light Bearer as far as I remember, but she didn't show any actual combat feats, nor did she show any potential in that way.

But Gustang's gift is another case and nothing to laugh about. The fact that it works and fights independently is a huge advantage, especially for someone like Rachel. If I had to assume, I would say that she is now capable to hold her ground against the likes of Aguero or maybe Androssi.

 

[shaheer]

why the hec did gustang give anything to this wretch is what i am more annoyed with

 

[kkck]

That depends on whether it is worth it to separate rachel's strength with the thing's strength. In any case it seems more than reasonable to suggest the weapon is insanely dangerous and she could plausibly beat even ban with it as things stand now. If only because the thing is able to attack without being perceived. Even then, it has the potential to hurt androsi which should be a feat considering she is a princess. Rachel went from being worthless in a fight to being extraordinarily dangerous at least. I guess the main issue is the time it will take her to actually master her new toy.

 

[Ripcord]

I would say the best example for this within ToG is Yihwa. Not that she got her power from anyone else, but she did have a crazy flame from her family but couldn't control it. As such she was DANGEROUS, but before she met Bam she wasn't a real threat to a lot of people.

Rachel's "gift" from Gustang is pretty hax, and perhaps people will have a hard time fighting against her before they figure it out, but long-term she isn't all that much a threat unless she learns to use the power she has.

 

[Demon Hunter]

That's actually a good point you brought up here. If we look at what we were told, Enryu's feat seems to be (far) greater than Phantaminum's. But this perspective may change once we get more information about Phantaminum's assualt on Zahard's palace. While the incident on the 43rd Floor seems pretty "straightforward", the aussault on Zahard's palace is shrouded in mysteries. We don't know whom Phantaminum fought, what kind of op-ness he displayed and why he didn't fight Zahard when he met him. In that regard, the Ranking Administration Office (RAO) seems to know much more than we do for now, thus ranking Phantaminum above Enryu. This is further proven by this fact:

ToG Wiki:

So, they indeed know much more about the incident than SIU has told us so far. If someone casually says to Urek's face that he won't stand a chance against Phantaminum, then they were surely impressed by Phantaminum's power.

By the way, SIU also implied that it was a very tough call within the RAO to put Phantaminum on the first place, which means that the RAO doesn't see much of a big difference in power between Enryu and Phantaminum.

yeah, I think it's right to say that Phantaminum is obviously ranked by pure power, not by his Axis nature.

his achievement is not as great as Enryu's but he is ranked higher because he is stronger and RAO knows that even though nobody knows he is an Axis.

Enryu is ranked higher than Jahad because he is stronger (he killed the Guardian after all).

Urek is ranked higher than Arie because Arie admitted that he is stronger than him.

pure power can rank you higher than someone who has big influence (Adori has no huge achievements where she can be compared to FH but she is ranked No 7. and even the blog says that she is ranked that high because of her monstrous power).

Irregulars might be the elites of the elites but they are not Gods.

I'll quote something from another series that I watched as a kid Even the lowest born can outdo the elite if they work hard enough.

 

[cash2088]

yeah, I think it's right to say that Phantaminum is obviously ranked by pure power, not by his Axis nature.

his achievement is not as great as Enryu's but he is ranked higher because he is stronger and RAO knows that even though nobody knows he is an Axis.

Enryu is ranked higher than Jahad because he is stronger (he killed the Guardian after all).

Urek is ranked higher than Arie because Arie admitted that he is stronger than him.

pure power can rank you higher than someone who has big influence (Adori has no huge achievements where she can be compared to FH but she is ranked No 7. and even the blog says that she is ranked that high because of her monstrous power).

Irregulars might be the elites of the elites but they are not Gods.

I'll quote something from another series that I watched as a kid Even the lowest born can outdo the elite if they work hard enough.

Sadly this isn't that series and in this series all the regulars are bound by contracts to guardians... As Gustang said theres only Urek and Baam who can stand with the heads.. Effectively Gods... Also no regular can kill Zahard and the original warriors are all immortal... Save the hard work for Naruto.

The family heads just have gotten lazy and care not for their rankings... Ha Yurin hasn't fought or done anything in hundreds if not thousands of years... Which is why SIU stated rankings aren't universally equal to power.