Discussion Ranking the Irregulars

[Ripcord]

hm you have a point.

I exaggerated a bit.

I don't think anyone could wipe the floor with each other when they were climbing.

the difference between the Great Warriors probably was slight.

currently, it's probably bigger.

as for V, I don't rate him that high.

--- Double Post Merged, May 25, 2018, Original Post Date: May 25, 2018 ---

yeah, I agree.

I overexaggerated a bit.

just saying that some GW were better than others at doing something.

I think you’re underestimating V a lot. We know that V was trying to be helpful to the tower residents and likely trying to take a cooperative path. Zahard was stealing power to rule over others to “protect them.”

I believe Zahard’s contracts with guardians gave Zahard more political power than V but this says nothing about V’s battle prowess. If anything I would guess that V and Zahard were about equals which explains how they could possibly fight over the path their group should take so often. If V was much weaker than Zahard he wouldn’t have as much influence in their group.

My guess is that V was betrayed or tricked, not that he lost outright in a fight. He lost because he was too trusting.

 

[Demon Hunter]

I think you’re underestimating V a lot. We know that V was trying to be helpful to the tower residents and likely trying to take a cooperative path. Zahard was stealing power to rule over others to “protect them.”

I believe Zahard’s contracts with guardians gave Zahard more political power than V but this says nothing about V’s battle prowess. If anything I would guess that V and Zahard were about equals which explains how they could possibly fight over the path their group should take so often. If V was much weaker than Zahard he wouldn’t have as much influence in their group.

My guess is that V was betrayed or tricked, not that he lost outright in a fight. He lost because he was too trusting.

true but like I said, the gap between the GW's strength wasn't really that big.

my gut is telling me that if there are the strongest 5 then they were BARELY above each other. I would say the fight between those were like Super Saiyan Goku vs 100% Frieza where Goku barely had advantage over him (you almost couldn't notice that).

Data Eduan and Data Jahad seemed comparable at least, not to mention Eduan wasn't afraid to challenge him and even threatened that he will regret by fighting him (something like that).

Arie challenged Jahad 10 times and lost each time. he wouldn't challenge him so many times if Jahad was that much stronger.

I also have a feeling that V didn't kill himself.

it seems lame and would be better if he goes out like a warrior.

 

[Demonspeed]

Machenny prolly was stronger than Bam or just as powerful when they came in. Also Bam was defensive till he started to use his own power. After that they seemed to be more or less equal. Eudan fought with zahard more or less equally ofcourse in a fight to death that would be a different issue. I cant see Yurin 'destroying' V after the hype SIU created for V via Data Eudan.

Yes she was stronger but her physical abilities are still above Baam's even now. If they are restricted to physical confrontation(which means no Shinsoo use at all), I am sure that Data Maschenny would really destroy him. But physical ability is not the only factor in fights.

I think you’re underestimating V a lot. We know that V was trying to be helpful to the tower residents and likely trying to take a cooperative path. Zahard was stealing power to rule over others to “protect them.”

I believe Zahard’s contracts with guardians gave Zahard more political power than V but this says nothing about V’s battle prowess. If anything I would guess that V and Zahard were about equals which explains how they could possibly fight over the path their group should take so often. If V was much weaker than Zahard he wouldn’t have as much influence in their group.

My guess is that V was betrayed or tricked, not that he lost outright in a fight. He lost because he was too trusting.

No, we know he wanted to climb. V is not a character I see in a good light at all from what we know about him. They were fighting but it doesn't mean the fights were serious, they were probably mostly verbal exchanges, V is more portrayed as someone who had a drastically different personality. I don't know how large are the power gaps but Zahard and Eduan only fought for a short while. One thing is sure though, in the end, Zahard is the stronger one.

 

[shaheer]

I don't know how large are the power gaps but Zahard and Eduan only fought for a short while. One thing is sure though, in the end, Zahard is the stronger one.

Zahard has to be the stronger one. Otherwise there is no point of centering this around Bam. If V could win against Zahard then his son who is prolly more talented can as well. Whats the stake?
Naruto (as much as it pains me to say this) is stronger than minato in the end( WHY KISHI WHY?? You made a blithering retard lame as hell loudmouth arse your main chara while the cool awesome dude his pater)

 

[Demonspeed]

I have reread some chapters and it reminded me how ridiculous Arie are with a sword. With what Inieta said about them ("They can do anything with a sword") and is ignition feat. Arie are pretty much reality warpers with a sword in hand. Imagine the kind of things Hon can do... When I think about this, it makes me wonder how good are Koon with their spearmanship compared to them, Eduan compared to Hon especially, at close range. We have not seen much of their spear skills so far and what makes them special, Asensio has his own style but the details are unknown.

 

[shaheer]

the elemental capability of Koons impressed me quite a bit. Not to mention they have a ridiculous strong body to take arie attacks also Data Eudan produced a ridiculously powerful spear against Zahard.

 

[kkck]

I have reread some chapters and it reminded me how ridiculous Arie are with a sword. With what Inieta said about them ("They can do anything with a sword") and is ignition feat. Arie are pretty much reality warpers with a sword in hand. Imagine the kind of things Hon can do... When I think about this, it makes me wonder how good are Koon with their spearmanship compared to them, Eduan compared to Hon especially, at close range. We have not seen much of their spear skills so far and what makes them special, Asensio has his own style but the details are unknown.

ItsI really hard to overestimate how insane omnidirectional space bending can be. And of course, being on the receiving end of ignited omnidirectional space bending is nothing short of brutal.

To be honest, i don't think the koon can go toe to toe with the arie using their spearmanship. Certainly spearmanship is their greatest attribute but i would argue the most important thing here is that it is far from the only one. As far as i can tell the koon family has 3 things going for them:

1.- spearmanship. Their trademark of course.
2.- shinsoo. They are notorious electricity users and in this arc we learned they have other rarer talents as well.
3.- physical strenght. We saw eduan trade punches with fucking zahard. Compare that to bam that has taken damage from zahards punches even through a shinsoo defense.

And the more competent koon around seem to excel at at least one of those fields. And the exceptional koon excel at all of those. Ran and mascheny of course excel at all. Aguero seems to have discovered he is good at all of those as well. Ascencio seems to focus mostly on spearbearing and perhaps physical combat. Kishia seems to be a physical beast..

The arie in turn seem to be sort of like one trick ponies when it comes to what makes them special. Of course, their one trick is one if not the single greatest form of combat in the tower. And the koon can stand up to them by a combination of their varied talents. Then again, it does seem like the higher end of their physical strength is a requirement one way or the other in order to stand up to them.

 

[shaheer]

I think EUdans weapon is like Ichimarugins Bankai, point somewhere and then let it instantly expand and before you know it you are pierced. Mago is prolly the strongest Compression weapon in the tower. Add to that Koons elemental strength he can electrocute freeze and do whatever his other element is with the ones who are impaled. Hons tech is sword and it seems his space warping sword art are comparatively limited in range than Koon (thats actually logical as well (Eudan can stand 50 miles away from Hon and hit him with the best shot)

 

[kkck]

A compression weapon seems to be exactly what ichimaru's sword technique does in general. Just look at the green april... It became insanely big and extended.

I assume eduan has the greater range compared to hon however it is hard to imagine such a thing really making all the difference here. It's not like we have seen hoaquin or inieta lacking for range. Not to mention that the whole point of arie swordsmanship is that the blade can come from anywhere. Perhaps at the higher levels range is a non issue, assuming it is an issue at even this stage....

Besides, 50 miles is nothing for a high ranker. We saw urek taking it easy and shit just blew up.

 

[shaheer]

Besides, 50 miles is nothing for a high ranker. We saw urek taking it easy and shit just blew up.

I guess thats true but Ureks opponent wasnt really a highranker level either Anther highranker can have defensive mechanism against such shockwave attacks at a range. However spears are by default range weapons so their potency prolly wont reduce at a distance from the spearbearer. Magos power has been quite hyped as well if it expands full its said to cover half the tower. With elemental affinity lightning speed, i can see Eudan having edge over Hon in some setting and not in others.
Ineta and Ran fight is not really a good benchmark comparison for Eudan and Hon i believe.

 

[kkck]

I guess thats true but Ureks opponent wasnt really a highranker level either Anther highranker can have defensive mechanism against such shockwave attacks at a range. However spears are by default range weapons so their potency prolly wont reduce at a distance from the spearbearer. Magos power has been quite hyped as well if it expands full its said to cover half the tower. With elemental affinity lightning speed, i can see Eudan having edge over Hon in some setting and not in others.
Ineta and Ran fight is not really a good benchmark comparison for Eudan and Hon i believe.

Hell joe was able to damage yuri even before he took away their shinsoo control. Hell joe was definitely high ranker level though also certainly not at the level of high ranker top tiers.

 

[Demonspeed]

Now that we have seen that Baam at full power is even with Data Zahard at full power, how strong do you think Data Eduan is compared to the latter? Do you think Zahard would need Leviathan to win?

ItsI really hard to overestimate how insane omnidirectional space bending can be. And of course, being on the receiving end of ignited omnidirectional space bending is nothing short of brutal.

To be honest, i don't think the koon can go toe to toe with the arie using their spearmanship. Certainly spearmanship is their greatest attribute but i would argue the most important thing here is that it is far from the only one. As far as i can tell the koon family has 3 things going for them:

1.- spearmanship. Their trademark of course.
2.- shinsoo. They are notorious electricity users and in this arc we learned they have other rarer talents as well.
3.- physical strenght. We saw eduan trade punches with fucking zahard. Compare that to bam that has taken damage from zahards punches even through a shinsoo defense.

And the more competent koon around seem to excel at at least one of those fields. And the exceptional koon excel at all of those. Ran and mascheny of course excel at all. Aguero seems to have discovered he is good at all of those as well. Ascencio seems to focus mostly on spearbearing and perhaps physical combat. Kishia seems to be a physical beast..

The arie in turn seem to be sort of like one trick ponies when it comes to what makes them special. Of course, their one trick is one if not the single greatest form of combat in the tower. And the koon can stand up to them by a combination of their varied talents. Then again, it does seem like the higher end of their physical strength is a requirement one way or the other in order to stand up to them.

Physical strength is not really an advantage. Arie and other members of the great families have this too. As for their Shinsoo attributes Arie have their own too. That's why I was thinking about their skills with a spear. Arie Swordsmanship is not really limited, SIU said there are several styles and some branches don't get to learn them. There are several spearmanship styles among Koon too but we know even less about them. Koons' fighting style definitely seem more varied.

 

[kkck]

Physical strength is not really an advantage. Arie and other members of the great families have this too. As for their Shinsoo attributes Arie have their own too. That's why I was thinking about their skills with a spear. Arie Swordsmanship is not really limited, SIU said there are several styles and some branches don't get to learn them. There are several spearmanship styles among Koon too but we know even less about them. Koons' fighting style definitely seem more varied.

But there are variations between noble families in terms of the degree of physical strength they have. All nobles of course have on average higher physical strength than non nobles however the variation between houses and even within them can still be significant. The arie have never been noted of having exceptional physical strength among the noble houses. In turn the koon have shown time and time again that they have substantial physical capacity to the point where eduan could trade punches with zahard (we know how that turned out for bam) and ran could afford to take hits from inieta. Physical strength wise the koon seem to be right after zahard and the ha family. Maybe if there is a lesser form of arie swordsmanship within the arie family then the koon could oppose it with their own spearmanship but if it comes to the real deal I would argue that at least the lore rules out koon spearmanship being capable of standing up to arie swordsmanship. Unless there is there an obscene difference in power but I doubt we are considering that scenario.

 

[Demonspeed]

But there are variations between noble families in terms of the degree of physical strength they have. All nobles of course have on average higher physical strength than non nobles however the variation between houses and even within them can still be significant. The arie have never been noted of having exceptional physical strength among the noble houses. In turn the koon have shown time and time again that they have substantial physical capacity to the point where eduan could trade punches with zahard (we know how that turned out for bam) and ran could afford to take hits from inieta. Physical strength wise the koon seem to be right after zahard and the ha family. Maybe if there is a lesser form of arie swordsmanship within the arie family then the koon could oppose it with their own spearmanship but if it comes to the real deal I would argue that at least the lore rules out koon spearmanship being capable of standing up to arie swordsmanship. Unless there is there an obscene difference in power but I doubt we are considering that scenario.

Koons have not really been portrayed as superior to most. What we know in terms of physical abilities is that Zahard Family> Ha Familiy> The rest. And there is the Hendo Lok Family for defense. You might have that impression because A.A and Ran are Baam's friends. It's never been said that Koon are better than most of the others. Ran is physically strong but he is the greatest genius among Koon and is from a special bloodline, that's what both Maschenny and Inieta(who is not a member of the direct bloodline) said. A.A of course is strong too but it's not like he has shown incredible physical feats aginst another 10F member of note. The only moment I remember where he compared his physical strength to someone was during his fight against Hatsu, which is why he praised him since he was able to stop the attack of a 10F member.

Despite Ran's incredible strength even for a Koon, he was physically weaker than Anak, who is not even as powerful as normal Princesses. Data Eduan did trade blows with Data Zahard but they fought for a short period and it's not like the fight was purely physical since they were using Shinwonryu, all of this matter.

Eduan's skills with spears should match Hon's skills with swords so I think Koon's spearmanship should have certain specifics making it OP.

 

[kkck]

Koons have not really been portrayed as superior to most. What we know in terms of physical abilities is that Zahard Family> Ha Familiy> The rest. And there is the Hendo Lok Family for defense. You might have that impression because A.A and Ran are Baam's friends. It's never been said that Koon are better than most of the others. Ran is physically strong but he is the greatest genius among Koon and is from a special bloodline, that's what both Maschenny and Inieta(who is not a member of the direct bloodline) said. A.A of course is strong too but it's not like he has shown incredible physical feats aginst another 10F member of note. The only moment I remember where he compared his physical strength to someone was during his fight against Hatsu, which is why he praised him since he was able to stop the attack of a 10F member.

Despite Ran's incredible strength even for a Koon, he was physically weaker than Anak, who is not even as powerful as normal Princesses. Data Eduan did trade blows with Data Zahard but they fought for a short period and it's not like the fight was purely physical since they were using Shinwonryu, all of this matter.

Eduan's skills with spears should match Hon's skills with swords so I think Koon's spearmanship should have certain specifics making it OP.

Ran is strong because he inherited his families traits. And IIRC correctly what inieta said was that ran was from the main line, unlike inieta. Ran has been noted as having spear techniques from the mascheny line. I am not saying the koon are a match to zahard's princesses or the ha family in terms of physical strength but the series has consistently shown they are exceptional in that field.

Aguero had two things going for him before the hidden floor, his lightbearing which isn't normally suited for combat and his trusty old knife. Basically aguero relied on his physical ability. And he even supposedly bested chang, one of the top 5 e rank regulars back at the workshop battle.

Data kissia also showed exceptional physical abilities considering she owned aguero with her trusty knife.

And come on, it's not reasonable to write of eduan's physical prowess like that... Holding your ground any amount of time against zahard's punches clearly is a big feat. Again, compared to how bam did, who took at times substantial damage even through his shinsoo defense...

It'd be one thing if only one koon had shown substantial physical strength but that is clearly not the case, all of them have shown this to some degree or another. And those who don't excel at shinsoo control or spearmanship still get to be insanely dangerous solely because of it.

And as far as koon spearmanship vs arie swordsmanship, the lore would suggest arie swordsmanship is the superior art, perhaps by far. SIU could change his mind of course but he has said there are no known countermeasures to arie swordsmanship except proper arie swordsmanship (Omnidirectional space bending for the win). There are no patterns to arie swordsmanship, it can't be predicted nor successfully blocked and nothing we have from koon spearmanship suggests it has anything that would allow it to match it. We saw even ascencio's spearmanship but even that clearly pales in comparison to the arie swordsmanship we have seen. I guess a koon learning arie swordsmanship to combine with his spears would be interesting but since there is a limit to how much arie swordsmanship can be learned without having the proper blood even that would pale. Considering the lore, if eduan can hold his own against hon it definitely won't be because his spearmanship can match hon's swordsmanship blow for blow at least. The bit with ran should be telling tbh. If the koon had a countermeasure to arie swordsmanship then ran, someone who inherited the stronger spear techniques the koon family has, would be able to learn it. And yet the advice he was given was to simply rely on his sturdy body and nuke his enemy.

 

[Demonspeed]

Ran is strong because he inherited his families traits. And IIRC correctly what inieta said was that ran was from the main line, unlike inieta. Ran has been noted as having spear techniques from the mascheny line. I am not saying the koon are a match to zahard's princesses or the ha family in terms of physical strength but the series has consistently shown they are exceptional in that field.

Aguero had two things going for him before the hidden floor, his lightbearing which isn't normally suited for combat and his trusty old knife. Basically aguero relied on his physical ability. And he even supposedly bested chang, one of the top 5 e rank regulars back at the workshop battle.

Data kissia also showed exceptional physical abilities considering she owned aguero with her trusty knife.

And come on, it's not reasonable to write of eduan's physical prowess like that... Holding your ground any amount of time against zahard's punches clearly is a big feat. Again, compared to how bam did, who took at times substantial damage even through his shinsoo defense...

It'd be one thing if only one koon had shown substantial physical strength but that is clearly not the case, all of them have shown this to some degree or another. And those who don't excel at shinsoo control or spearmanship still get to be insanely dangerous solely because of it.

And as far as koon spearmanship vs arie swordsmanship, the lore would suggest arie swordsmanship is the superior art, perhaps by far. SIU could change his mind of course but he has said there are no known countermeasures to arie swordsmanship except proper arie swordsmanship (Omnidirectional space bending for the win). There are no patterns to arie swordsmanship, it can't be predicted nor successfully blocked and nothing we have from koon spearmanship suggests it has anything that would allow it to match it. We saw even ascencio's spearmanship but even that clearly pales in comparison to the arie swordsmanship we have seen. I guess a koon learning arie swordsmanship to combine with his spears would be interesting but since there is a limit to how much arie swordsmanship can be learned without having the proper blood even that would pale. Considering the lore, if eduan can hold his own against hon it definitely won't be because his spearmanship can match hon's swordsmanship blow for blow at least. The bit with ran should be telling tbh. If the koon had a countermeasure to arie swordsmanship then ran, someone who inherited the stronger spear techniques the koon family has, would be able to learn it. And yet the advice he was given was to simply rely on his sturdy body and nuke his enemy.

The thing is that they are exceptional but nothing says they are more exceptional than all the others disregarding the Zahard and Ha Families. Zahard and Ha are the ones who stand out. When a Koon is praised for his physical abilities it's because he is part of the 10 Families. Of all the fights we have seen among Regulars, Ran only fought two people in that category who are Anak and Inieta. Kiseia is strong of course since she is a Koon, but she was fighting another Koon. Nothing says that Ran or AA are physically stronger than Elaine or Yihwa or that it is the case for Koons in general to be better than Yeon or Lo Po Bia.

Inieta said that he is a direct descendant, not sure if it's the same but Ran is from the same branch as Maschenny and from what we know it's not the first branch considering what we know about the LS technique. I am not downplaying Eduan's prowess, obviously he physically powerful, but their clash was not just a clash of pure physical power.

I was not really thinking of the way to counter Arie Swordsmanship but the specifics of Koon Spearmanship which, I think should compare. Unlike his father, Ran doesn't use spears. Eduan can fight without weapons but he is obviously much stronger with a spear, he is even called the God of Spears. Even Data Maschenny used spears along with her Redan and LS techs but she didn't show the same dexterity of Asensio, who is someone who created his own style later. Unlike with Arie, the main trait of their spear skills is unknown. He said that the Big Breeder's style resembled them so it can be taught to others like Arie Swordmanship, but Koons are obviously better with it.

 

[shaheer]

What do you guys think the end result of a fully powered Zahard vs Enryu will be? Of 10 battles will Zahard loose 10 times like Arie v Zahards case(where arie lost 10 times)?

 

[Ripcord]

Enryu didn’t fight Zahard for likely 1 of 2 reasons:

1. Enryu was equipped to fight an administrator but not Zahard - kind of a rock-paper-scissors scenario.

2. Enryu beating Zahard wouldn’t accomplish anything for the axis in control of this story. It has to be Bam or someone else.

Given Zahard’s current strength I wouldn’t put it past him to be able to take out a guardian. There’s a reason the Admins haven’t just thrown him out of the Tower. Tbh I don’t think Enryu could kill Zahard as he is now but I bet it would be a hard fight for both of them.

 

[shaheer]

Well i was talking about a hypothetical fight. If Enryu can kill off Admin i dont think Zahard poses much threat to Enryu. We have seen physcal strength can pose edge but if you have a complete mastery of shinsoo you can do wonders. Nothing beats Shinso mastery of Enryu.

 

[Zenryujin]

No i don't think killing a mere 100 high ranker will make Phantaminum ranked 1. After all Mazino defeated karaka, who was high ranker slayer by just 1 finger. And that was his only 1 percent power.