Discussion Ranking the Sins

[overlordpringerx]

I didn't say anything about Gowther but his attacks were not as powerful as Escanor's. We have only hints but it is implied that Spirit is Escanor's weakest stat. And Gowther, still at 3100, was able to knock him out at 28800. When Escanor is at 50K he needs Merlin's help. His attack was enough to deal with Escanor but he was not stronger.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 20, 2016, Original Post Date: Apr 20, 2016 ---

What do you mean by fair setting? We didn't see all of the battle but in the end Diane was under a pile of debris and victim of Lost World while Gowther was sit and panicking because he was regretting what he did. Besides the AOE Blackout all of his attacks can affect them and he showned recently that he could use Herrit to track his targets automatically.

With all the feats they have, I don't see how Merlin could beat King, maybe she can teleport him but it's not a sign of strength. And I think a fellow Sin should be able to deal with this. King has Release, that puts him way above any of the Sins besides Meliodas and Escanor.

Well, Merlin's ability makes the magic of her opponents drop significantly. Seeing how King is almost purely magical he is at a clear disadvantage

 

[Demonspeed]

Well, Merlin's ability makes the magic of her opponents drop significantly. Seeing how King is almost purely magical he is at a clear disadvantage

Magic Cancel can cancel magics, it doesn't make someone's magic drop. With the feats she has currently, there is no way she can beat King.

 

[kkck]

What do you mean by fair setting? We didn't see all of the battle but in the end Diane was under a pile of debris and victim of Lost World while Gowther was sit and panicking because he was regretting what he did. Besides the AOE Blackout all of his attacks can affect them and he showned recently that he could use Herrit to track his targets automatically.

With all the feats they have, I don't see how Merlin could beat King, maybe she can teleport him but it's not a sign of strength. And I think a fellow Sin should be able to deal with this. King has Release, that puts him way above any of the Sins besides Meliodas and Escanor.

Well, diane was far from full power when she confronted gowther. She was at half her strength and did not have her sacred treasure available to her. And while his attacks would work on diane, most of them are easily blocked. They don't seem to have any concussive force meaning diane can easily block them with earth. And the other sins would just avoid them or otherwise block them... With that in mind I doubt automatic tracking would make that much of a difference.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 20, 2016, Original Post Date: Apr 20, 2016 ---

Magic Cancel can cancel magics, it doesn't make someone's magic drop. With the feats she has currently, there is no way she can beat King.

Even then there is the question of whether she could even use it against king. So far it seems like merlin has to physically touch what she is cancelling. Such as the demon barrier or gowther. She would need to catch king's incoming attacks for this to be relevant. It would be interesting if she could do to king what she did to gowther and dispel his magic but it is debatable whether such thing would work. I think the implication is that she was able to do that to gowther because there is a spell at work in that specific case. Which wouldn't be the case against king.

 

[john ellis]

Merlin is likely hiding her true strength it would not surprise me if she is meliodas or escanor tier, there is a reason why we have never seen her fight. Likely because she is super hax. Anyways she can just cast perfect cube and cast spells at king until she wins. King cannot break perfect cube or she can Teleort Kings scared treasure away from him. Which makes him useless. It could be it takes her 10 seconds to get her power and for this reason is why she tired stalling Gallen.


It makes sense for plot reasons to limit merlin from doing things if she is another meliodas/sun king and that's why she is in the stone.

 

[kkck]

Merlin is likely hiding her true strength it would not surprise me if she is meliodas or escanor tier, there is a reason why we have never seen her fight. Likely because she is super hax. Anyways she can just cast perfect cube and cast spells at king until she wins. King cannot break perfect cube or she can Teleort Kings scared treasure away from him. Which makes him useless. It could be it takes her 10 seconds to get her power and for this reason is why she tired stalling Gallen.


It makes sense for plot reasons to limit merlin from doing things if she is another meliodas/sun king and that's why she is in the stone.

Well, why would she end up holding back against galan then? If she had that sort of power it wouldn't have made sense for her to put everyone at risk like that.

As for your theory, it sort of depends on whether she can actually cast spells from the inside of perfect cube. Perfect cube was used earlier to keep the king sealed, if spells could be cast from the inside to the outside it wouldn't be that good a sealing spell.

 

[Yakkun]

Well, why would she end up holding back against galan then? If she had that sort of power it wouldn't have made sense for her to put everyone at risk like that.

As for your theory, it sort of depends on whether she can actually cast spells from the inside of perfect cube. Perfect cube was used earlier to keep the king sealed, if spells could be cast from the inside to the outside it wouldn't be that good a sealing spell.

Her power itself could hint away at her reluctance to use offensive battle magic. Powers awaken and manifest out of great need and desperate situations. Why would she awaken a power that only cancels other magic/powers?

I think she has a personal reason for why she holds back. Vivian is her disciple and we have seen that she is a fairly strong sorceress. She also had no qualms using strong elemental magic like tornadoes or her quad-element-destroyer spell or freeze coffin. Merlin hasn't used any of this yet. Probably because she is incredibly powerful and may have injured or even killed someone accidently in the past.

 

[ShadowHeart]

1-Escanor
2-Mel
3-Merlin
4-Gowther/King
5-Gowther/King
6-Ban
7-Diane

There'a a reason why Nakaba had Merlin nerfed as soon as she rejoined the Sins. And Absolute Cancel is not Merlin innate ability we haven't seen it yet. If Vivian can use quad-element-destroyer I'm pretty sure Merlin can as well to a higher degree.

 

[john ellis]

kkick i never said she was holding back i said it may take her 10 seconds to channel this power hence why she was trying to stall galan for 10 seconds, she's no idiot who can read power levels. She felt like she only needed 10 seconds to save everyone. So either she was stalling for her spell's cooldown time(which is 10 seconds) or it takes her 10 seconds to cast enough spell, or active her powers

a 10 second casting delay would make her kinda weak though. IT just seems to be there must be some plot reason why we've never seen merlin fight, and plot reasons in this series is usally because they are op
ie escanor
meliodas true power

 

[kkck]

kkick i never said she was holding back i said it may take her 10 seconds to channel this power hence why she was trying to stall galan for 10 seconds, she's no idiot who can read power levels. She felt like she only needed 10 seconds to save everyone. So either she was stalling for her spell's cooldown time(which is 10 seconds) or it takes her 10 seconds to cast enough spell, or active her powers

a 10 second casting delay would make her kinda weak though. IT just seems to be there must be some plot reason why we've never seen merlin fight, and plot reasons in this series is usally because they are op
ie escanor
meliodas true power

Ah, I thought you meant something else. In that case my response is that what you are suggesting is simply factually incorrect. We actually saw her thought process during her short confrontation with galan.
http://www.mangamint.com/nanatsu-no-taizai-121?page=6

Merlin didn't have a plan which she needed 10 seconds to implement. She had 10 seconds to come up with a plan and implement it. In other words at that point merlin had precisely squat. No plan nor the power to do anything. Merlin was merely stalling hoping that something would happen. And the sad part is that she was so helpless in that situation that even stalling backfired.

 

[Yakkun]

Ah, I thought you meant something else. In that case my response is that what you are suggesting is simply factually incorrect. We actually saw her thought process during her short confrontation with galan.
http://www.mangamint.com/nanatsu-no-taizai-121?page=6

Merlin didn't have a plan which she needed 10 seconds to implement. She had 10 seconds to come up with a plan and implement it. In other words at that point merlin had precisely squat. No plan nor the power to do anything. Merlin was merely stalling hoping that something would happen. And the sad part is that she was so helpless in that situation that even stalling backfired.

Or you know, great importance is in her words "How can I save everyone and make Galan retreat without letting the capital of Camelot suffer any more destruction"

That may as well imply that she could have fought but would've completely wrecked the entire place. She already has shown to possess magic that spans city-wide by guarding it with a protective shield, having offensive magic of that caliber isn't a far stretch.

She had no plan, yes, but it was also the circumstances which rendered her impotent.

 

[kkck]

Or you know, great importance is in her words "How can I save everyone and make Galan retreat without letting the capital of Camelot suffer any more destruction"

That may as well imply that she could have fought but would've completely wrecked the entire place. She already has shown to possess magic that spans city-wide by guarding it with a protective shield, having offensive magic of that caliber isn't a far stretch.

She had no plan, yes, but it was also the circumstances which rendered her impotent.

That is an awfully optimistic interpretation of what she said. Given what we actually saw the more realistic interpretation of what she said should be "Holy crap, holy crap, holy crap, holy crap...". At the moment there is no reason for us to think merlin could have done anything if protecting others hadn't been a thing.

The shield would actually be evidence of the sheer extent to which merlin at that point was irrelevant to galan. The shield at best managed to take a couple hits from an albion.. A worthless, powerless toy by commandment standards.

Consider what mel did to galan. Mel used his powers of darkness and straight up threw it at galan. And galan took literaly zero damage from it. As in, not even a tiny scratch. Meliodas at 10k pl was so worthless against galan that not even the ground galan was standing on was affected. It's even hard to stress how little galan was actually trying through this whole thing. The attacks he was using in general were so weak that even when fired back at him they did not even hurt him. And he says he could not easily break past perfect cube.... which does leave some ground to suggest that he could destroy it with trouble.

Now, we have been specifically told merlin's power is around 4700. It's a nice number but overall well less than demon toys... If we consider that mel's attacks at that point were quite ineffective against galan, what would it take for merlin to do anything here? She hasn't yet shown the sort of abilities that are effective regardless of PL. If we consider the extent to which mel was ineffective against galan then where does that leave merlin? I would think that with merlin 4700 she wouldn't deal even a microscopic scratch to galan even if galan had intentionally taken every single spell merlin could throw at him... Unless she does something ridiculous like making a vacuum to choke him or something. However if the consideration is only raw power then merlin simply can't do anything. For her strongest spell to to anything against galan she would need IMO no less than 4 times her current PL. And that is just to be able to do anything, not even to actually be able to win (after all, galan's 40k did not hurt escanor's 50k).

 

[Yakkun]

That is an awfully optimistic interpretation of what she said. Given what we actually saw the more realistic interpretation of what she said should be "Holy crap, holy crap, holy crap, holy crap...". At the moment there is no reason for us to think merlin could have done anything if protecting others hadn't been a thing.

The shield would actually be evidence of the sheer extent to which merlin at that point was irrelevant to galan. The shield at best managed to take a couple hits from an albion.. A worthless, powerless toy by commandment standards.

Consider what mel did to galan. Mel used his powers of darkness and straight up threw it at galan. And galan took literaly zero damage from it. As in, not even a tiny scratch. Meliodas at 10k pl was so worthless against galan that not even the ground galan was standing on was affected. It's even hard to stress how little galan was actually trying through this whole thing. The attacks he was using in general were so weak that even when fired back at him they did not even hurt him. And he says he could not easily break past perfect cube.... which does leave some ground to suggest that he could destroy it with trouble.

Now, we have been specifically told merlin's power is around 4700. It's a nice number but overall well less than demon toys... If we consider that mel's attacks at that point were quite ineffective against galan, what would it take for merlin to do anything here? She hasn't yet shown the sort of abilities that are effective regardless of PL. If we consider the extent to which mel was ineffective against galan then where does that leave merlin? I would think that with merlin 4700 she wouldn't deal even a microscopic scratch to galan even if galan had intentionally taken every single spell merlin could throw at him... Unless she does something ridiculous like making a vacuum to choke him or something. However if the consideration is only raw power then merlin simply can't do anything. For her strongest spell to to anything against galan she would need IMO no less than 4 times her current PL. And that is just to be able to do anything, not even to actually be able to win (after all, galan's 40k did not hurt escanor's 50k).

Yeah it is optimistic. Why not?

In what way more realistic? Has Merlin ever struck you as the person to lose her cool and fly off the handle? The only time she had an emotional outburst was when she learned from Mel that the Commandments will be on the move and there it was more a mixture between excitement and anger - not "holy shit holy shit holy shit". So I don't see how losing her nerve is more realistic for Merlin. She was calmly assessing the situation in the minuscule timespan she had and was confident in her ability to trick Galan. Which likely would've worked if his decree hadn't ruined it. Otherwise he might not even have noticed she was rusing him.

The rest is just you making comparisons with Meliodas and Galan which I'm not even going to address because I never claimed she would beat him. I only said she wasn't necessarily defenseless only based on what you quoted her from. And I only brought up the barrier not for its strength but for the reach she has with her magic power.


The original argument with Merlin was about her ranking based on the little offensive showings she has in the manga to which I originally noted that there's got to be a reason for that and it most likely isn't inability but a choice to not use offensive magic.

 

[kkck]

Yeah it is optimistic. Why not?

In what way more realistic? Has Merlin ever struck you as the person to lose her cool and fly off the handle? The only time she had an emotional outburst was when she learned from Mel that the Commandments will be on the move and there it was more a mixture between excitement and anger - not "holy shit holy shit holy shit". So I don't see how losing her nerve is more realistic for Merlin. She was calmly assessing the situation in the minuscule timespan she had and was confident in her ability to trick Galan. Which likely would've worked if his decree hadn't ruined it. Otherwise he might not even have noticed she was rusing him.

The rest is just you making comparisons with Meliodas and Galan which I'm not even going to address because I never claimed she would beat him. I only said she wasn't necessarily defenseless only based on what you quoted her from. And I only brought up the barrier not for its strength but for the reach she has with her magic power.


The original argument with Merlin was about her ranking based on the little offensive showings she has in the manga to which I originally noted that there's got to be a reason for that and it most likely isn't inability but a choice to not use offensive magic.

I am not saying merlin is the type to loose her cool. My point was how cornered and out of options she was. Which in this case was unequivocally "completely". I do disagree about her ability to do so. Merlin did not actually come up with a plan at all, she was stalling hoping to come up with one. And then the decree kicked in.

Well, you suggested merlin's magic might be effective against galan. And my point was that people dramatically more powerful than merlin had completely failed at the task. How is merlin going to do anything at all, not even winning, when people with far more power got their asses handed to them? Merlin as she was can't scratch galan. Literally.

 

[carjet]

Gowther admitted that he is at a distadvantage against a half-powered Diane without Gideon if he doesnt use his Sacred Treasure. Just saying.

 

[LivewireToriko]

1. Peak Escanor

2. Danafor Meliodas

3. Merlin

4. King

5. Gowther

6. Ban

7. Diane



1. Escanor is first because Meliodas said he was stronger then him, Merlin said he was the strongest sin, Nakaba seems to imply that he really is the strongest sin at his peak, he's a special singular existence unlike any other, nobody else has power like his, was said to be on the same level as estarossa(not even Mel got that praise when all of the commandments sensed he got his power back), and estarossa doesn't seems to really care/not be worried by it, killed two commandments in one battle, almost killed a third (glox) while he was at his weakest, etc. Yes he is vulnerable to some forms of hax like mera's soul manipulation, or Gowther's memory manipulation, but in both instances he was only effected because he let them do their thing, not really wishing to fight either. He could have nuked both outright and killed them had he wished, so as of right now, escanor doesn't really have any real loses, or exploitable weaknesses.

2. Main character, major player in the battle 3000 years ago. We already saw his full power, his danafor feat. Hyped to be a major threat to the demons. Has the greatest destructive feat in the manga. Very versatile with full counter, cloning, and demon power to atomize enemies. If he doesn't have the power to kill an enemy himself his set of abilities his well designed to make the opponent end up killing themselves by turning their attacks on them. Strength increases with rage. Admitted to not being able to defeat two commandments at once, which is something escanor did accomplish. Even at his best, with his strongest attack, did not oneshot kill fraudrin, whom is only a substitute commandment.

3. Merlin. Secretive. Probably has all sorts of hax spells, making her pl not matter . Can make a perfect cube that even galan said was hard for him to break. Most likely has more hax. Nerfed and put on ice by Nakaba almost as soon as she rejoined the sins. Managed to k.o Meliodas and steal all of his power(although she suckered punch him). Can also amp her owns spells as well as others , and enabled Gowther to k.o escanor with one of his weaker memory attacks.

4. Fairy King. Disaster ability to makes light wounds more dangerous, or lethal. Weak physically however, and to physical damage. Great magical ability. Has very versatile weapon. Was one of the strongest sins with a 4K pl. still has room to grow and get wings. Can boost his power to 10k if things get dangerous.

5. Gowther. Too dependent on his memory manipulation. Not to good in a fight. If you can dodge his arrows, can be defeated fairy easily. Not to strong either physically, or in terms of magical ability. Said Diane in her human sized form would give him trouble if he didn't have his sacred weapon while she didn't have hers. However if he can get the memory manipulation off, he can probably oneshot.

6. Too dependent on immortality. He knows he can't die, so no need to improve himself and get more powerful. Not good at dodging, blocking attacks. Can easily be oneshotted by hax because he will most likely let it him. However he does make up for the fact that he doesn't improve himself by having the ability to steal strength and speed from others although this is a limited amount.no magical abilities to speak of, if he can't defeat his opponents through brute strength he will lose as he has nothing to fall back on.

7. Weakest sin. Decently versatile with the ability to manipulate earth. Decent amount of physical strength. Easy target in giant form, not too fast either. If she can't overpower her opponents with brute force she will lose as she has nothing to fall back on. Has good durability however do to size, and skin hardening magic. Has no means of even given herself a temporary power up in times of need. A lot of potential to unlock.

 

[oxtopus]

If i were to rank the sins taking power,abilities and resourcefulness into consideration. mY list would go like this

1. Escanor : Simply because he he's extremely op,has probably the most dangerously destructive ability,oh and because merlin,meliodas and Mr Nakaba says he surpasses all the other sins at full power.

2. Meliodas : Of course,it's meliodas. He utterly destroys all sins except escanor,right now they stand no chance.

3. Merlin: Lady merlin is a bag full of mysteries. Her wide variety of magic and resourcefulness is more than enough to take out any of the sins in a struggle bar escanor and meliodas,since they would just be too overwhelming.

4. King : King is really formidable and exceeds all the sins except escanor and meliodas in the power department. Even with his true spirit spear,in a straight up confrontation with merlin,i'll put my money on merlin,because her true abilities and true strength are a mystery and with her vast magic knowledge,spells and resourcefulness,she would likely be the victor in an confrontation.

5. Ban : Ban,ban,ban,the immortal sin with the powerful ability SNATCH. Ban is incredible from what we've seen,being able to fight on equal ground with commandments. To stand a chance against No 3&4(no 1 and 2 is just impossible) in a battle,ban will need his max physical strength which can only be achieved by using hunter fest,and there's a very high chance that there wouldn't be enough strong people around to power him to his max and even if he was at full strength,merlin is the worst match up against his fighting type and king could probably overpower him and petrify him. But ban's still pretty strong and if he regains his st,it might just be hax enough to move him to No.3 or 4.

6. Diane : No explanation needed.

7. Gowther : Gowther is the weakest sin right now,even though he might have the most dangerously effective ability of all the sins. His power is just too weak to pose any danger to other sins in a true and serious battle . I mean the best he could do against a human sized diane with almost half of her physical strength reduced and no S/T was stalemate. If that's the best he offers then he can't actually defeat any of the sins at full power in a truly comitted battle. But all this could change if gowther recovers his former power as a COMMANDMENT. he could skyrocket from last to first or second strongest sin,depending on how powerful he becomes.

 

[LivewireToriko]

If i were to rank the sins taking power,abilities and resourcefulness into consideration. mY list would go like this

1. Escanor : Simply because he he's extremely op,has probably the most dangerously destructive ability,oh and because merlin,meliodas and Mr Nakaba says he surpasses all the other sins at full power.

2. Meliodas : Of course,it's meliodas. He utterly destroys all sins except escanor,right now they stand no chance.

3. Merlin: Lady merlin is a bag full of mysteries. Her wide variety of magic and resourcefulness is more than enough to take out any of the sins in a struggle bar escanor and meliodas,since they would just be too overwhelming.

4. King : King is really formidable and exceeds all the sins except escanor and meliodas in the power department. Even with his true spirit spear,in a straight up confrontation with merlin,i'll put my money on merlin,because her true abilities and true strength are a mystery and with her vast magic knowledge,spells and resourcefulness,she would likely be the victor in an confrontation.

5. Ban : Ban,ban,ban,the immortal sin with the powerful ability SNATCH. Ban is incredible from what we've seen,being able to fight on equal ground with commandments. To stand a chance against No 3&4(no 1 and 2 is just impossible) in a battle,ban will need his max physical strength which can only be achieved by using hunter fest,and there's a very high chance that there wouldn't be enough strong people around to power him to his max and even if he was at full strength,merlin is the worst match up against his fighting type and king could probably overpower him and petrify him. But ban's still pretty strong and if he regains his st,it might just be hax enough to move him to No.3 or 4.

6. Diane : No explanation needed.

7. Gowther : Gowther is the weakest sin right now,even though he might have the most dangerously effective ability of all the sins. His power is just too weak to pose any danger to other sins in a true and serious battle . I mean the best he could do against a human sized diane with almost half of her physical strength reduced and no S/T was stalemate. If that's the best he offers then he can't actually defeat any of the sins at full power in a truly comitted battle. But all this could change if gowther recovers his former power as a COMMANDMENT. he could skyrocket from last to first or second strongest sin,depending on how powerful he becomes.

Actually he probably would have done better if she was full size.

Bigger target.

 

[Yakkun]

I am not saying merlin is the type to loose her cool. My point was how cornered and out of options she was. Which in this case was unequivocally "completely". I do disagree about her ability to do so. Merlin did not actually come up with a plan at all, she was stalling hoping to come up with one. And then the decree kicked in.

She was out of options because she didn't want to pull anything that could've put others at risk. Now that doesn't mutually include that said option would've allowed her to beat or heavily injure Galan. Just that she could've chosen a different approach if it weren't for the condition of her friends and the city. That's really all I am saying. Maybe our definitions of what makes someone "helpless" simply differ.

Well, you suggested merlin's magic might be effective against galan. And my point was that people dramatically more powerful than merlin had completely failed at the task. How is merlin going to do anything at all, not even winning, when people with far more power got their asses handed to them? Merlin as she was can't scratch galan. Literally.

Yes, I did. But effectiveness comes in different ways and shapes. It would've been easier to escape if she could've diverted Galans attention for longer. Like, let's say, just rain fire on the entire city from the sky could've sufficed for her to teleport the entire cast out of reach. Whether or not that is just delaying the inevitable pursuit of Galan is irrelevant for the argument here; point it, there could've been other ways. Gowther effectually "beat" Galan by making him leave on his own without even putting the slightest notch into his armor-skin.


And to return to my original point again - all these things sort of factor at her overall strength, even if they are hard to measure. Book smarts, street smarts, too. And that should reflect in her ranking.

 

[Rescorlian]

Well, I guess we can forget how Ban was supposed to be faster than Meliodas. See the speed Meliodas has now ?
Makes no sense whatsoever how Ban was able to draw with him

 

[kkck]

Well, I guess we can forget how Ban was supposed to be faster than Meliodas. See the speed Meliodas has now ?
Makes no sense whatsoever how Ban was able to draw with him

I think the situation here is that ban has better "reaction" speed than mel. As for actual movement speed mel should vastly outclass ban. So ban wins about half his matches because about half the time his reaction is fast enough for him to put force in before meliodas.