Discussion Relevent versus popular characters

[Phantron]

In all the discussions I've with HXH I notice a recurring theme. The popular characters that people defend tends to be irrelevent in the grand scheme of things, and the relevent characters tend to be unpopular. This reminds me a lot of Hikaru No Go where all the popular characters, minus Sai, are the pretty boys who are basically nobody in the world of HNG, but all the guys who are relevent in HNG are old guys that nobody cares about.

I recall the official books puts Hisoka at 28, so let's use 28 as a cutoff point. This would include people like Spiders, Ilumi, and obviously the protagonists. These guys can be considered the new blood and the rising stars. Problem is, the rising stars are still nobody. Hisoka said he wanted to challenge Netero, and Netero didn't even bother replying. Now you can say that's Netero, but Netero is not supposed to be *that* powerful. After he saw Pitou, Netero said that Pitou is probably stronger than him, and that he's declined to the point where he's probably only as good as Morel or Novu.

Now Netero is obviously very modest, but it's not like he can crush Morel or Novu with a single strike or this statement would be ridiculously hypocritical. It's only after Netero destroyed a squad by himself unharmed (Spiders needed 6 guys and several were significantly wounded) that Novu pointed out Netero is still more powerful than they are. This suggests at least superficially the statement 'Netero is no more powerful than Morel and Novu' seems okay. Sure you know Netero is almost certainly joking when he said that, but he'd never say that about say, Hisoka, a person he didn't even bother acknowledging during the interview prior to the final exam.

Now normally the new guard quickly replaces the old guard with a bunch of conveniently plot required powerup, but HXH doesn't work like that. Even in the Ant arc itself, we see that it was a member of the old guard, Morel, that did the vast majority of the work in the fight against Royal Guards. The next most important (and arguably most) guy was Zeno, whose lucky stray shot hit Komugi which indirectly tied up Pitou, again another member of the old guard. Even though Gon had some super convenient plot powerup, ultimately his role in the Ant arc is absolutely nothing because the outcome of the overall battle was already decided whether Gon beat Pitou or not.

The problem with HXH is that this old guard always refuses to go away, and as long as they're around, there's no reason to take any of the rising stars seriously. If anything in the Election Arc the 'old guard' somehow got even bigger while appearing even more useless at the same time. How does Hisoka, a guy who Netero never paid any attention to, is able to get away with wholesale slaughter near the Hunter's HQ, next to the Zodiacs whose strength is at least acknowledged by Netero?

Togashi clearly wants to write about the new characters. They're popular and they're also interesting. But as long as he doesn't get rid of his old guards, they'll never be relevent in the world of HXH, and invariably the story feels like a bunch of kids running around loose thinking they're cool while the adults watch on the side. In fact, the Ant arc might as well be Morel babysitting a bunch of kids who are way over their head. If Morel didn't participate in the main attack, I'm guessing all the guys devoted to Royal Guards would've been instantly wiped out, and then Netero would've died approximately 5 seconds later as the Royal Guards converged on him. I'm guessing the old guard was probably supposed to be wipe out by the Ant arc and the Election Arc (via Pariston), but for whatever reason that never actually happened. If anything, it's stronger than ever due to the introduction of the Zodiac (who are clearly not new people).

 

[Django]

Why do you keep saying that several Spiders were "significantly wounded" ? Shizuku had trouble but wasn't injured (losing one's clothes is not an injury). Bonolenov won easily and wasn't injured. Karuto won easily and wasn't injured. Phinx won easily and wasn't injured. Sharnalk won easily but got some muscle pain because of his own Hatsu, and Feitan got some bruises and a broken arm, which means more or less nothing in the HxH world (Kite and Hisoka can fight just fine with severed arms). Feitan himself said his "Pain Packer" wasn't very powerful, which means the pain Zazan gave him wasn't that much of a big deal. Overall, only one was injured (two if you really want to count Sharnalk's muscle pain) and no one was "significantly" injured. And you say they needed six guys to take out a Squad...no, they didn't, they were six but that doesn't mean they needed to be six. Actually, two guys would have been enough to deal with the problem : Feitan fighting Zazan, Phinx or Bonolenov (or even Sharnalk) fighting the rest.

And why do you make such a huge deal out of Netero not "acknowledging" Hisoka ? Even assuming it's true (and since Hisoka said he had trouble staying calm because Netero was letting his guard down, so you might argue Netero was deliberately trying to provoke him), why would it make Hisoka weak ? Netero "acknowledged" Gon and Killua by asking them to play with him. Does that mean they were stronger than Hisoka, Illumi, Hanzo and everyone else ? And we know for sure Hisoka and Illumi are stronger than some members of the Zodiac (if we can't trust Hisoka about power levels, then we can't trust anyone).

As for the matter of Togashi needing to get rid of the old guard to write about new characters...Why exactly couldn't he introduce new characters just as powerful as the "old guard" (and he did : Morel, Knov, Knuckle, Shoot, the Zodiacs...) ? That would make (and does make) interesting conflicts, instead of : "Oh my God, look at those new guys ten times stronger than Hisoka/Razor/The Troupe/The Zoldycks !". That's the kind of thing to be expected in DBZ, not in a series as smart as Hunter X Hunter. Of course Togashi did it once, and it was done in a very smart way, but doing it again would be a really, really bad move.

 

[Phantron]

I have no idea how if you're coughing up blood and have broken ribs that's supposed to be 'no big deal'. It's not a big deal if your fight is about to end, yes, as long as the other guy dies before you. They're still not injuries you just ignore. Feitan and Shalunark both complained that Phinx shouldn't be trying to hit them later because they're already injuried. Their abilty to fight is certainly significantly compromised as the result of their injury.

The Zodiacs are people whose strength is specifically acknowledged by Netero. Gon and Killua was just someone he found while he was bored. He didn't need to have any kind of guard up against Hisoka because Hisoka is a nobody from his point of view. I think you misunderstood by what I mean by the new guys. This is a generational gap. Everyone of Hisoka's age or younger can be considered as 'new', while people in Ging's generation or older can be considered the older guys. Morel and Novu are clearly part of the Ging's generation if not even older.

Biscuit said she has known aura for over 40 years. If Hisoka learned aura when he was 8, he'd have known aura for 20 years. Unlike most series, HXH actually does reward hard work unless you're super duper special like Gon and Killua. Why would people of Biscuit's generation who have more than 20 years of experience and training compared to the new guys ever be at a disadvantage against them? There's no such thing as guaranteed win but you really think all the mid 20s and younger guys are just supposed to fight guys who are equally talented that have been training for 10 or 20 years longer? In HXH a human's prime definitely goes to at least 50 (Biscuit is definitely still in her prime). Given people like Hisoka actually have no special heritage whatsoever, it'd be really weird if he has an apparent advantage over any significant character in Ging's generation.

 

[kkck]

My impression was netero would indeed just foderize morel and knov to be honest. The guy stood up to the king, something which no other being in the manga ever did at all. Even the king could not actually keep up with netero's speed for the most part, he actually took quite a large number of hits. It took careful reading and patience to actually land a hit on netero. The sheer speed netero is capable of was the result of 10 years worth of non stop training. Seriously, he barely even slept during the first part of it.

As far as netero's comment on pitou being stronger than him I think the whole thing was a reference to pitou's volume of nen more than anything. I have the idea that the 3 royal's actually had a significantly greater amount of nen than netero. The issue would come down to netero being the superior nen user. Netero had refined the nen he had to a point almost incomprehensible to even the king.

 

[Phantron]

My impression was netero would indeed just foderize morel and knov to be honest. The guy stood up to the king, something which no other being in the manga ever did at all. Even the king could not actually keep up with netero's speed for the most part, he actually took quite a large number of hits. It took careful reading and patience to actually land a hit on netero. The sheer speed netero is capable of was the result of 10 years worth of non stop training. Seriously, he barely even slept during the first part of it.

As far as netero's comment on pitou being stronger than him I think the whole thing was a reference to pitou's volume of nen more than anything. I have the idea that the 3 royal's actually had a significantly greater amount of nen than netero. The issue would come down to netero being the superior nen user. Netero had refined the nen he had to a point almost incomprehensible to even the king.

Well we don't really know how Netero would fare against other top level human opponents. With the way he's portrayed he'd obviously destroy any human character we know of, but then this creates a rather perplexing contradiction as we know Netero isn't even in the top 5 right now, and he's only at 50% of his prime. If Beyond Netero is supposed to be as strong as Issac Netero in his prime, then why does the Zodiac even think they have a chance of capturing him? All we know is that he acknowledges the Zodiac, Morel, and Novu for their strength, even though sometimes it seems like Netero's acknowledgement is some kind of joke. Hisoka, and everyone else in the Hisoka or younger generation, never even got that, so that should say something about the relative difference in strength between Hisoka's generation and the older generation.

At any rate, in HXH, unless your name is Gon or Killua, experience and hard work is usually valued over stuff like heritage. The older generation have more time, training, and experience to fine-tune their ability. None of that means they're guaranteed to win, but I don't really see why people continually assume someone with 10-20 more years to refine his ability is supposed to be the one who is disadvantaged. HXH character's prime goes to 50 at the least, so Hisoka at 28 is actually very young in terms of experience.

---------- Post added at 12:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 AM ----------

A note on the hax abilities. Emperor Time is about as hax as things can get and still make sense. It'd actually be reasonable balanced on a major boss character (e.g. Meryem or Pariston). It has at least one equalizing factor in that, if you know what it did, you can deal with it by immediately running in the other direction. There's nothing from Emperor Time or its related family of abilities that'd stop you from getting away. At most Kurapika can try to throw a Chain Jail on you while you're running away (assuming you're a Spider), but we know that Chain Jail can be avoided. You won't win against Emperor Time in any realistic scenario but at least retreat is possible.

Netero's ability, and also Killua's, is pretty much beyond hax as you can't even run away because by definition their ability is faster than anything you can possibly do. You're just flat out dead.

 

[kkck]

Well, the top 5 thing was a list made by netero to begin with. Why would he be on his own list? Even if he was we can't really be sure of how true it was that he was at only 50% of his power or how much he got back while he fought ants. Even if netero is right he still far exceeds anything we have seen from any human. Honestly, the very basics of how nen combat works give netero an edge. Lets look at uvo's big bang impact.
http://www.mangapanda.com/207-14085-7/hunter-x-hunter/chapter-76.html
And here is netero's most basic attack
http://www.mangapanda.com/207-14299-10/hunter-x-hunter/chapter-290.html

So at the moment it is plausible to make the point that netero's most basic attack is at around the power level of a full charged ko from a powerful enhancer. Of course netero is well capable of more than that, the manga actually made the point that netero hit mereum hundreds of thousands of times. Now, as far as nen goes, the most basic element of combat is to be able to move your aura around your body to attack and defend. Now, taking in consideration the sheer power netero commands and the speed he has shown, how exactly would you defend from that? No defense could actually withstand a full blown attack from netero as far as we know. I mean, ko from an enhancer is something only a fellow enhancer could properly block with another ko otherwise the scenario will be a ko with 110% power or so against a ko at 80% power or less. The ants resisted however the implication is that the RG and the king actually far exceeded netero in terms of volume of nen. Still, when it comes to humans I can't imagine them actually defending.... The defense would have to be too strong to fast to deal with only 1 hit at large. Imagine hundreds of thousands.

Now, the thing with netero is that the extreme to which he took his training is at large dangerous and improbable. Its hard to imagine someone else would do the same. Netero did his special training when he was in his 40s or so according to the manga because he was grateful to martial arts. Presumably netero at this age was already a proficient nen user. Now, on top of netero already being a proficient nen user we have to consider he spent 10 years solely training and praying. Its not like he did other stuff at all, he literally did nothing but train and pray. No human contact, no luxuries, no nothing. There are plenty other strong nen users however its extremely unlikely they would actually put that much training. And still, odds are those very strong nen users would have to spend 10 years doing nothing but training for every second of every year to catch up to netero.

Now, on the matter of beyond netero, who knows how strong he can be. I would find it unlikely that he is as strong as issac netero. Overall I would argue that netero effectively surpassed humans in terms of martial arts and nen to some degree... If he learned from netero then perhaps he did submit himself to a similar insanity however until then it makes more sense that he is comparable to standard very high level users rather than the old man.

 

[Phantron]

If you take Netero's power at face value then the series feels rather meaningless. HXH, after all, is a world about being strong at combat. So is the point that all these new guys are absolutely nothing compared to Netero, who is apparently a god amongst human, and that they're only wasting time and if not for Meryem, all their effort would be completely meaningless as long as Netero lives? And where does this put the people that Netero actually acknowledges? Or what about Pariston, who Mr. Bean calls as 'the biggest mistake the Chairman ever made?' Is he supposed to be someone who could've crushed all of the Zodiac at any time? What exactly is the point of all this struggle if there is this unfathomable chasm between Netero or even someone near his tier than the rest?

After thinking about this issue I think one explanation is that Netero was actually at his prime in that final battle. That is, all that preparation plus presumably using his remaining life force as a source of energy allowed him to fight as if he's in his prime. This is because otherwise his final move, the Zero, does not make sense. We see after he used that move it basically drained him of all his life force. Now it's easy to say that it's a desperation move that uses up all your remaining life force, but we're talking about Netero, a guy whose supremacy has not been challenged for at least 50 years. It literally makes no sense why he'd have a finalmove that sacrifices himself for a guy who is saddened by the fact that nobody can give him an adequate challenge. Someone who never loses should not have a move that harms yourself let alone kills yourself.

I guess ultimately Togashi is to blame for all this, because all these inconsistency can be explained if there's more content, but of course we know it takes a miracle to get 10 chapters an year from Togashi, so had Togashi explained all these various inconsistencies we'd still be at the GI arc. Perhaps Togashi should consider partnering up wiht someone with a ton of endurance and he'd only direct the story and maybe occasionally draw if he actually feels like drawing. I'm guessing Togashi actually has thought about how these issues are supposed to be resolved but just lacks the endurance to continue drawing since meeting the deadline for a weekly serial can be quite exhausting.

 

[Demonspeed]

Well, The royal guards and the King's aura volume is more important than Netero. It's like that in a Nen battle, as Morau said in the last episode, you can't know the Hatsu of your opponent so you judge their strength via their aura volume. Even if their aura is stronger Netero would beat them, at least Pitou, I have doubt for the 2 others.

And I disagree with what you said about Hisoka. He is arrogant but he is really strong. Hisoka likes to tease people, Netero too, in fact it's Netero who provocated him, knowing Hisoka's instable nature. He was sitting unprotected and when Hisoka tried to challenge him and deployed his aura he ignored him with a straight face.

It's true that the majority of Hunters are weak but since the beginning of the manga, Togashi showen us the strong Hunters: Menchi, Buhara, Satotz(those 3 are in Hisoka's list and he was teasing them like with Netero), Illumi, Biscuit and the Zodiacs.There is also Morau and Knov but there are probably way weaker than the guys I cited. Don't forget also that there are Hunters who are specialized in fighting and that we don't know( Black List Hunters etc.). Bushidora was presented as a very strong Hunter but he has been fodderized by Hisoka. The zodiacs are undeniably all strong Hunters. They have been described as the best Hunters but also Netero sparring partners it means they are all able to give Netero a run for his money and some zodiacs are probably stronger than him because of his old age.

Even if Hisoka is arrogant we should believe in his statement about the Zodiac's strength because he is a veteran and also because his senses are better than average, in the Hunter Exam too he spotted Gon and Killua who are by coincidence the most talented Nen users and he was able to detect Kalluto's presence who was using Zetsu with his senses alone. He probably judged their aura volume and maybe some unknown factors but it doesn't mean he would beat Piyon for example because he doesn't know her Hatsu. There is also another reason to believe in his statement,because of Illumi. Even if Hisoka is arrogant he gave 95 to Illumi without seeing his face, he rated him higher than all the zodiacs he had seen. And it's more than obvious that Hisoka and Illumi are in the same ballpark.

Hisoka and Illumi are top fighters who could give Netero a run for his money and are with the zodiacs the strongest human fighters, there is also Chrollo, Silva and Zeno but they are not Hunters. With the new arc there is also Beyond Netero.

 

[mousiehamster]

I recall the official books puts Hisoka at 28, so let's use 28 as a cutoff point. This would include people like Spiders, Ilumi, and obviously the protagonists. These guys can be considered the new blood and the rising stars. Problem is, the rising stars are still nobody. Hisoka said he wanted to challenge Netero, and Netero didn't even bother replying. Now you can say that's Netero, but Netero is not supposed to be *that* powerful. After he saw Pitou, Netero said that Pitou is probably stronger than him, and that he's declined to the point where he's probably only as good as Morel or Novu.

Now Netero is obviously very modest, but it's not like he can crush Morel or Novu with a single strike or this statement would be ridiculously hypocritical. It's only after Netero destroyed a squad by himself unharmed (Spiders needed 6 guys and several were significantly wounded) that Novu pointed out Netero is still more powerful than they are. This suggests at least superficially the statement 'Netero is no more powerful than Morel and Novu' seems okay. Sure you know Netero is almost certainly joking when he said that, but he'd never say that about say, Hisoka, a person he didn't even bother acknowledging during the interview prior to the final exam.

I think it's more a case of him not wanting to fight Hisoka and intentionally letting down his guard rather than a case of Netero not acknowledging him. He's an examiner and it would be stupid if he fought Hisoka out of the blue.

The problem with HXH is that this old guard always refuses to go away, and as long as they're around, there's no reason to take any of the rising stars seriously. If anything in the Election Arc the 'old guard' somehow got even bigger while appearing even more useless at the same time. How does Hisoka, a guy who Netero never paid any attention to, is able to get away with wholesale slaughter near the Hunter's HQ, next to the Zodiacs whose strength is at least acknowledged by Netero?

I have a feeling that the Hunters running for political positions are not combat oriented. Mostly, Illumi and Hisoka were up against crappy temp hunters. Do these guys even know how to use Nen? It's not like the Zodiacs gave a damn about Hisoka anyway.

Togashi clearly wants to write about the new characters. They're popular and they're also interesting. But as long as he doesn't get rid of his old guards, they'll never be relevent in the world of HXH, and invariably the story feels like a bunch of kids running around loose thinking they're cool while the adults watch on the side. In fact, the Ant arc might as well be Morel babysitting a bunch of kids who are way over their head. If Morel didn't participate in the main attack, I'm guessing all the guys devoted to Royal Guards would've been instantly wiped out, and then Netero would've died approximately 5 seconds later as the Royal Guards converged on him. I'm guessing the old guard was probably supposed to be wipe out by the Ant arc and the Election Arc (via Pariston), but for whatever reason that never actually happened. If anything, it's stronger than ever due to the introduction of the Zodiac (who are clearly not new people).

Thing with the new guard (Hisoka, Illumi and the Spiders) is that these guys haven't really fought anyone noteworthy. Chrollo did fight against Zeno and Silva which is pretty damn impressive but otherwise who else have these guys fought? Hisoka fought tiger claw guy, a butler, "beat" Razor, slaughtered some temp hunters...and the Spiders fought the ants, gon/killua/kurapica, and the Injyuu.

Of course one must also keep in mind that Nen battles aren't solely about power levels.

Hopefully sooner or later we'll get a decent fight involving the new guard that isn't totally one sided (so sort of like the Gon/Killua fights).

 

[kkck]

If you take Netero's power at face value then the series feels rather meaningless. HXH, after all, is a world about being strong at combat. So is the point that all these new guys are absolutely nothing compared to Netero, who is apparently a god amongst human, and that they're only wasting time and if not for Meryem, all their effort would be completely meaningless as long as Netero lives? And where does this put the people that Netero actually acknowledges? Or what about Pariston, who Mr. Bean calls as 'the biggest mistake the Chairman ever made?' Is he supposed to be someone who could've crushed all of the Zodiac at any time? What exactly is the point of all this struggle if there is this unfathomable chasm between Netero or even someone near his tier than the rest?

After thinking about this issue I think one explanation is that Netero was actually at his prime in that final battle. That is, all that preparation plus presumably using his remaining life force as a source of energy allowed him to fight as if he's in his prime. This is because otherwise his final move, the Zero, does not make sense. We see after he used that move it basically drained him of all his life force. Now it's easy to say that it's a desperation move that uses up all your remaining life force, but we're talking about Netero, a guy whose supremacy has not been challenged for at least 50 years. It literally makes no sense why he'd have a finalmove that sacrifices himself for a guy who is saddened by the fact that nobody can give him an adequate challenge. Someone who never loses should not have a move that harms yourself let alone kills yourself.

I guess ultimately Togashi is to blame for all this, because all these inconsistency can be explained if there's more content, but of course we know it takes a miracle to get 10 chapters an year from Togashi, so had Togashi explained all these various inconsistencies we'd still be at the GI arc. Perhaps Togashi should consider partnering up wiht someone with a ton of endurance and he'd only direct the story and maybe occasionally draw if he actually feels like drawing. I'm guessing Togashi actually has thought about how these issues are supposed to be resolved but just lacks the endurance to continue drawing since meeting the deadline for a weekly serial can be quite exhausting.

I don't get your first paragraph... Netero being that good does not make the series meaningless at all. True, he does seem to be that much stronger than everyone else but that does not take anything away from other fighters. Netero was ultimately a joker character to so to speak so he was set up against another opponent who no one else could hope to defeat. Its not like netero was superman and would feel a need to involve himself in everything... if anything the situation is the opposite, he liked to tease people so in many situations he is likely to just do stuff for the fun of it. I don't see what inconsistencies you are talking about here.