Society Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

[ddadain]

The flames haven't died down.

It's just no one has replied to what I've said

 

[hunter71485]

@ all
ok, thanks for all your answers... though i found out just yesterday that different immams have different interpretations... my uncle's must be a radical of sorts....

@ddadain
if nobody replies to your 'interjections'(sorry couldn't find a proper word), be very careful.

Spoiler

i got kicked out of a forum (and hence, banned from the site itself) because all the moderators are so f*ckd up about a topic i started. believe me, they all went hostile because i wrote something like 'you can bash other religion, if you want' and they took it personally. they even started a crusade against me.

 

[ddadain]

That won't happen here, lol!

Many of the moderators know me XD

& I've been here long enough to know what's ban-nable offenses :P

 

[hunter71485]

@ddadain
i know, just telling you to be careful of what you say... you never know...

@ a question to catholics out there

not to add fuel to the fire, but
1)why do you guys pray to 'saints' (or specifically, dead people proclamed blameless and [holy] by the head of the roman catholic church [pope]) and

2)pray for the souls of people who died? is it not written in the bible that those who are dead are in the hands of God?

and please don't tell me about a place called purgatory, or what the wikipedia [or any online pedias] says. it's what you think that's important, not what others write.

and again, this is not a flame war. don't hate others for what they write. yes, being frank has its costs, but isn't it better than a facade?

 

[ddadain]

I have a question for you though,

You should know the answers already, since you come from the Philippines: the only "Christian" nation in Asia.

Catholics pray to saints because they want the saints they pray to to plead their petitions for them. It's like, err, let's say the saints are friends of a very popular guy. The very popular guy knows you, but you ain't close and all with him, BUT you're really close to the the saints. If you wanted to ask the very popular guy something, wouldn't it be better to ask through your friends, the saints to ask on your behalf. The praying to the saints has the same principle.

Basically, the saints has lots of "pogi-points" with God (that's why they're saints!), so if they ask of him anything, they SHOULD be more favored :0 Another thing is, since people are filthy with sin, they don't feel worthy to directly call upon God or Jesus, since they're like the... err... THE BIG ONES!

Praying for the souls of those who died is what the dogma of Purgatory is all about. >_< Like it or not, to explain why people pray for their loved ones is all about Purgatory.

The basic principle is that the more people or prayer you get if you're in Purgatory, the shorter your stay in there will be, and the faster you can get to paradise. Now Purgatory is basically an intermediate phase between death & heaven. The Bible really cites such a place, but I forgot where it was, but it's in the Bible, only not really named "purgatory" only a transitional place. Anyways, it's a place where you get put into when you haven't done enough to get into heaven, but you ain't too bad to put into hell.

People pray for their loved ones who died and they think would not go to heaven directly. Basically, it's family bonding. Although, I do not understand why this is so because there'd be no blood relations in heaven, as the Bible says [spolier]no sex too![/spoiler].

As for who introduced the dogma, well... that's for another time.

 

[TechnoMagus]

devotion to saints

well, sorry to start with old trusted wiki...

Intercession of the saints is a Christian doctrine common to the vast majority of the world's Catholic Christians. Intercessory prayer is a petition made to God on behalf of others. If a believer prays for his children or friends, his enemies or leaders, then the believer is interceding on behalf of another. The doctrine of saintly intercession goes back to the earliest church. The justification for calling upon a saint in prayer is that the saints are both close to God, because of their holiness, and accessible to humans.

From the Catholic and Orthodox Churches perspective, as well as "High Church" Anglican/Episcopalianism and certain Old Lutheran perspective: if those living here on earth can intercede on behalf of each other, then those which have already been glorified in heaven, and are even closer "in Christ", are made holy as "one" unified through him (the mediator between God and men- on earth and heaven) by his sacrifice, can certainly intercede for those on earth as well. (Heb 2:11, 10:10; 1 Tim 2:1-5)

So now for my own view....
"hypothetically", you "ask" a saint to pray for yourself, which is no different than asking any other living person to pray for you or on behalf of others. In fact, most people who encounter living "holy" people or those high in the hierarchy of their own religion also ask them to pray for you right? And since saints have more "points", people ask them to pray for them too or they pray "together" as if the saint were still living and physically present in the community. That's why the response is "St...pray FOR us". This is my personal take on this.

Now the big problem with this is miseducation and misinformation. People who are usually involved with devotion and intercession of the saints do it wrongly or are unaware of the proper concept of intercession that it degenerates into a cult of the saints or a worship of them reminiscent of the "pagans". Couple it with the innate human nature and need for "physical" and "visible" signs and symbols in contrast to the very "abstract" worship which contributes to this degeneration.

These visible and physical artifacts and relics-- may be venerated--that is given honor and respect but not worshiped in place of God. Other sources for the veneration of saints are accidents of history. Early Christians persecuted by the Romans met in the catacombs and prayed nearby and even over the remains of the saintly martyrs possibly giving rise to this practice and the influx of many converts from the polytheistic Roman religion.

Excessive veneration amounting to idolatry is highly discouraged by the contemporary Church but it was more apparent during the middle ages leading up to the Reformation where corrupt Church officials exploited this practice like selling and fighting over relics.

purgatory

well if you don't like the answer of purgatory, you're at a loss since that is the only answer...i think. people cannot be open in asking questions and pre-judging an answer befere it is answered. i think other people here may be more eloquent in their defense of an individual's own beliefs but if they have given a satisfactory answer and you don't like it, the most you can do is not agree on it instead of rejecting it and being pre-judicial with it.

the problem with purgatory is the biblical reference pointed to is in a book not considered "canon" by other denominations. you can just take the explanation already given by the Church and other experts and not agree on it.
http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/how2purg.htm

...so long as one does not know what God's will is concerning something, whether it is past, present, or future, it is still rational to pray.

as with the devotion to the saints, this doctrine was also abused in the period leading up to the Reformation.

Now before anyone goes on chastising others on their "idolatrous" and "blasphemous" beliefs and practices acting all high and mightily right, i was reminded of s story my theology teacher told me when i asked a similar question to him. he told me of going into confession amidst people who were on the verge of doing excessive veneration and had this superior and righteous attitude of being more knowledgeable in Scripture and the teachings of the Church. During the penance, the priest asked him to read a particular verse from Luke. It struck him as it touched on his very attitude the very moment before he went into confession.

Luke 18:9-14 (New International Version)

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about[a] himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' 13"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'
14"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

what it meant for me in the context it was answered is that people may have different beliefs and external practices (some may be prejudiced in the superiority of their own) but if their prayer is faithfully sincere, with humility and coming from the heart (all of which we can never be privy to), God will surely know of it and will answer it in His own way.

God knows best.

 

[ddadain]

he said he didn't want any wiki stuff XD

 

[hunter71485]

ah, well. the answer's from TM, so no biggie.

the reason i don't like beliefs that rely on praying at a certain person/place is that it makes you reliant on that person/place. if you really believe in God, then why all the going round the bushes? doesn't make sense.

here's an allegory: you know God. and you know someone who everyone believes is closer to God than you are. you are going to ask the guy a favor from God, yet you don't want to ask God yourself because God may not heed your request, but if it comes from this guy, then you're sure to get them.

now, with that said, wouldn't God know who that request came from, because He is Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnipresent? does it really make a difference to God?

 

[kiddo7]

disclaimer: this is my personal belief and not necessarily representative of other Christians doctrines.

I believe that you are quite right. It most likely does not make much of a difference to God.
Asking the Saints to intercede for us in prayer is most likely done for the benefit of man and not God. Probably to make God more accessible to those that feel far from him and have a hard time approaching him.

 

[TechnoMagus]

well IMHO, why not ask God directly and also ask other people, living, dead, saintly to also pray WITH you in asking God? the issue i think is that some people rely ONLY on the saints or only with other people but not themselves to pray for oneself.

sometimes it helps if other members of your religious community (living or otherwise) pray together for each other regularly. it not only fosters the religious communion but also one's own faith...especially in times of crises. it really helps if there is a form of support structure within your own religious comminuty to help each other in matters of faith.

another analogy...substance abuse rehabilitation is more successful in the presence of such support structure. also with physical therapy and dieting/working out...

and that is for something very tangible...but religious conviction is more abstract and the existence of a reassuring support structure that is very physical/tangible obviously helps...

but it is as you said, there is a danger of over-reliance and dependency on this support structure and they have to know their boundaries as to when and what circumstances one must be left to his own devices...that's also why we have priests/pastors/ministers to help and guide us when it is time to face religious adversity alone when the religious support structure has done its part.

and i defer to them for a more thorough resolution on the discussion of this topic...

 

[hunter71485]

@TM

now THAT's a point. praying with family and friends for the benefit of the whole community is (or should be) highly encouraged. i have even thought of a 'utopian community' where everyone is working together, praying together.

guess that dream's gonna come true only when we break the world, huh?

@kiddo7

it seems praying to saints long gone is a tradition that started in Rome, in the first century AD. it may be a move (by the elders) to encourage joining the newly-created Roman Catholic Church. it was the time when the pagan Roman Empire is at the brink of extinction.

 

[amar_kun]

Assalamualaikum everyone! I hope all of u are at the best of health.

i would like to take this opportunity to wish all muslim forumers in MH "Eid Mubarak"!! May Allah grant us happiness and accept our deeds in Ramadhan, ameen!

Have a nice Eid!

by the way, I drew a comic about Eid and Palestine.. you can read the comic at this link: http://www.paksi.net/modules/rehat_minda/images.php?idimg=31

(the comic is in English, but with few grammar mistakes from me of course )

 

[Ichimaru Gin n Tonic]

And i would like to wish the same for everyone!
May we live to experience many more ramadhans.

 

[Imperium]

Yes, to all the brothers and sisters Eid Mubarak!

 

[Saifi]

Eid Mubarak to all

 

[Optimist]

Yeah !
Eid Mubarak everyone

 

[Gold Knight]

To be honest, I agree with ddadain's first post on many of the reasons that I myself am incredibly skeptical about Islam as a religion. It is the reason why I have not chosen to really participate in this thread so far, but as it is becoming an incredibly huge subject as far as world influence, I might as well say my piece about it. From having studied the origins of Islam, I ended up not seeing Muhammad as a particularly holy man since he started out as a friend of Jews and then betrayed them later on when they disagreed with him being the prophet. Contrast that with either Abraham or Jesus; to our knowledge, neither of them showed any malice towards other people. It was later people who hid behind both religions as a means of advancing their political and ambitious goals, something no true Judaist or Christian would have approved of - but they generally weren't in power because of their pacifist views. But for Islam, from all accounts, it started out as a semi-political movement that succeeded in earning Muhammad some semblance of power at Mecca.

To me, Judaism and Christainity are the true religions; there were not supposed to be any more prophets after the last one in the Bible. And no, Muhammad did not exactly act like a holy man in my thinking, especially when he massacred an entire Jewish tribe and sent all their women and children in slavery, out of spite. And he wrote some very unflattering things about Jews afterwards in the Koran as well, and he also changed the focus of worship from Jerusalem to Mecca - his home - almost to say that he is the one everybody should worship.

So I treat Muhammad as a flawed man that had some good ideas and some bad ideas, but basically as somebody who wanted to give the Arabs their own religion because he admired the Jews for their own devout worship while he lived with them in Syria. But I do not believe in the Koran as the "final words" of God, as I do not believe Muhammad was himself a genuine prophet - just a man trying to shake things up a bit for his own people. Which certainly succeeded.

Again, I mean no offense; I do not want to ruffle any feathers; I am just expressing my feelings about Islam, and why I will probably never treat it as a genuine religion. Just a man's philosphy. That does have nice things about it, but to this point, how the Muslim nations as a whole in the Middle East have historically, in the 20th century, reacted to Israel (and Palestinian refugees) does have me more than a bit skeptical about the merits of Islam. In short, it seems like overkill to me. Much as Puritanism and Catholicism, in some respects, have turned out to be throughout history, too.

And that's all I will say here about it. I hope I haven't offended anybody too deeply about what I've thought about it all this time.

 

[hunter71485]

to me, you haven't offended anyone (yet), but what you said is what you believed in, so no worries there. you're not trying to convert anyone to the religion you believe in.

about the koran:
not to offend muslims, and islam as a whole, but whenever i try to read the koran (my father bought one to study its contents) it wouldn't make sense if you read it like a book; rather read it like a poetry, or a collection of thoughts transcribed without proper order. and the things written therein are quite puzzling too, for i never read of any 'violence against others' that islamic terrorists are widely known for. and yet they proclaim themselves as the true vanguards of islam.

 

[xi0]

I sorta agree with some things GK said, but my feelings on religion as a whole are this. Most everyone is an atheist about every other religion in the history of the world, except one, but there are also those who go one religion further. The arrogance some have to proclaim their religion as the correct and true path amazes me, while there are an obviously huge variety of alternative faiths. So who can say who is truly correct? The answer is none of them can, and that is why I don't see religion as a necessity in today's world in order to live a moral and just life.

 

[Gold Knight]

I think religion is mainly and should always be up to the individual to decide on and every one, every single person on this world, should have the freedom to choose their own religion (or lack thereof) without being persecuted by others.