Society Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

Roflkopt3r

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Problem with churches and religions are that they won't accept different ideas in some cases and even will follow stuff that makes no sense, like Pope banning condoms. I read how a Mormon basketball (?) player got kicked off the team and possibly suspended (I forgot) for having premarital sex. Uptight, yo. D:
Yeah there really is no seperation between "good" and "bad" ideas, it when it seperates itself from science, unreligious humanism, enlightenment and common sense so drastically. Nothing can be proven or questioned anyways, so they turn out to do the most stupid stuff in some religious societies...
Even when questioning is "allowed", the answers are not falsifiable because they are based only on belief, so ultimately the question is worthless.

That's why I prefer humanism about religious forms of it. It's based on respect to each other, non-violence, freedom of conscience and tolerance, so there is no risk of harming or despising each other out of weird ideologies.
Stuff like marking all homosexuals as sinners for example is a clear seperation between the value of people and will lead to some kind of conflict sooner or later.
 
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benelori

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The banning of condoms, which in itself is a pretty mundane concept, thanks to our taboo-less society, it actually covers a pretty large issue...and that is the idea of sex within the family and promote that...family being the most basic cell of society and on an ideological level it is actually an institution...that's the meaning behind it, but of course it can also be considered as a stubborn refusal of accepting the phenomenon of sex before marriage, which is wide-spread, and source of diseases
 

Gecko Moria

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Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

-Epicurus
Just something I read somewhere which I thought was pertinent to this discussion.
 

DLord.Van.Buuren

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Yeah there really is no seperation between "good" and "bad" ideas, it when it seperates itself from science, unreligious humanism, enlightenment and common sense so drastically. Nothing can be proven or questioned anyways, so they turn out to do the most stupid stuff in some religious societies...
Even when questioning is "allowed", the answers are not falsifiable because they are based only on belief, so ultimately the question is worthless.

That's why I prefer humanism about religious forms of it. It's based on respect to each other, non-violence, freedom of conscience and tolerance, so there is no risk of harming or despising each other out of weird ideologies.
Stuff like marking all homosexuals as sinners for example is a clear seperation between the value of people and will lead to some kind of conflict sooner or later.
You made your point pal, I respect what you think, even though I don't agree with you.

You on the other hand are not being respectful at all, and that is not tolerance nor is it humanism.

Besides, I've been thinking about it for a while and I think you're off topic dude.

it says religious QA not athiest QA.
 

blai

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If someone wants to discuss between two religions, then it's okay here, if someone wants to discuss between a humanistic point of view, and a religious one, then that's okay too. The important thing is that he topic is somewhat related to religious believes, thus roflkopt3rs post isn't irrelevant because he claims why he prefer humanism over the big religions.

Basically, this thread is a hub which tries to cover all aspects of religious discussion and therefore it's related to discussing non-religious point of views contra religious point of views.
 
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DLord.Van.Buuren

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what he's doing is not discussion it's bashing.

People are the religion, wasn't it in the rules to not bash people ?

This kind of threads shouldn't be here in the first place, they just cause trouble and feed hatred, I'm not saying I hate anyone because he thinks diffrently.Honestly I don't give squat about it.
 

blai

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The banning of condoms, which in itself is a pretty mundane concept, thanks to our taboo-less society, it actually covers a pretty large issue...and that is the idea of sex within the family and promote that...family being the most basic cell of society and on an ideological level it is actually an institution...that's the meaning behind it, but of course it can also be considered as a stubborn refusal of accepting the phenomenon of sex before marriage, which is wide-spread, and source of diseases

I've never once thought of the banning of condoms as an attempt to decrease the amount of incest that occurs daily because I've never once addressed incest as a common matter (but what the heck do I know).

I see it more as a tool to control the young Catholics, the ones who doesn't follow everything they've been told by the hierarchy but who respects it, thus reacts when suddenly, according to the Pope, they aren't allowed to use condoms. This would, obviously, decrease the amount of pre-martial sex because believing Catholics won't risk having a child born out of marriage.

Though, this also heavily affects the married couples who wants to enjoy sex but not in a procreational purpose.

Sex is a beautiful thing if between two persons who loves each other and banning Condoms is a horrible act to prevent them from having sex unless they want a baby because, in my eyes, there are nothing sinful about having sex at all, nothing.


what he's doing is not discussion it's bashing.

People are the religion, wasn't it in the rules to not bash people ?

This kind of threads shouldn't be here in the first place, they just cause trouble and feed hatred, I'm not saying I hate anyone because he thinks diffrently.Honestly I don't give squat about it.
I don't see any bashing. He simply states that he doesn't like the way religion thinks and that some acts might eventually lead to conflict.

Yes, people = the religion, and what he's doing is the same as saying "buddy I think you're wrong here because your logic isn't solid here, and here."
Bashing would be something like "omfg Catholicism sucks it's like the worst religion of all time I hate them so bad it hurts".

I find this kind of thread very important because even if two persons of different religious views can't come to an agreement, they can at least come to an understanding and that's the reason of this thread.
Understanding people who are different is a key to prevent conflict and is incredibly important if we want to live in a peaceful world.

It's exactly like the Protestants in Sweden has to understand and respect the Muslim immigrants that comes here, as well as the Muslims has to understand and respect the Protestants. They should of course not convert or agree on every viewpoint, but to agree to disagree with an understanding is a big step against peace.
 
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Roflkopt3r

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You made your point pal, I respect what you think, even though I don't agree with you.

You on the other hand are not being respectful at all, and that is not tolerance nor is it humanism.

Besides, I've been thinking about it for a while and I think you're off topic dude.

it says religious QA not athiest QA.
Religious discussion - a discussion about religion.
The funny thing it that it's much harder to discuss between religions than to discuss about religions in general, because a discussion between religions can barely contain matters which are discussable on a logical level.
I know that it can seem rough when I (or anyone) argues against religion as a whole, because it means a extensive rejection. But it's not really possible to say "there could be a little bit of god but not much".

Also I'm always trying to point out that I'm not generalising the believers themselves. For example, when I said that the thing that religion is not discussable on a logical level and thus can lead to weird and dangerous ideologies, I specified that this is only sometimes the case and not for all religious communities.

For me, most religious believers are people who did not question their beliefs thoroughly in a logical way. This might sound like a big accusation, but it's actually not. We rarely question things logically, especially those things we are involved with ourself. It's just a relatively normal state actually.

Also, critizising religion does not mean critizising people at the same rate (even though perhaps a little). You're saying "people = religion", but I don't see it like that. Religion is just an idea, such as Communism, Democracy, Humanism, Racism, whatever. These can be discussed, without beeing agressive against the people maintaining the idea, when maintaining an objective level. That's the scientific point of view. If I would be able to prove the theory of relativity wrong, that wouldn't be a personal attack on Einstein and the people believing in that theory. It's just "sorry, I believe you are wrong and I can tell you why".

Still, I'm sorry when someone feels like I am offending certain people here. It's not my intention to do so.
 
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benelori

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@blai...I actually phrased that incorrectly...sex within family meant only husband/wife relationship...so no incest:sweat
 

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I've never once thought of the banning of condoms as an attempt to decrease the amount of incest that occurs daily because I've never once addressed incest as a common matter (but what the heck do I know).

I see it more as a tool to control the young Catholics, the ones who doesn't follow everything they've been told by the hierarchy but who respects it, thus reacts when suddenly, according to the Pope, they aren't allowed to use condoms. This would, obviously, decrease the amount of pre-martial sex because believing Catholics won't risk having a child born out of marriage.

Though, this also heavily affects the married couples who wants to enjoy sex but not in a procreational purpose.

Sex is a beautiful thing if between two persons who loves each other and banning Condoms is a horrible act to prevent them from having sex unless they want a baby because, in my eyes, there are nothing sinful about having sex at all, nothing.
I think the problem is that religions frowned/frown up premarital sex. I have no idea why, to be honest, unless it was a way to avoid men and women from having multiple partners or something.

Why do religions have any right to forbid premarital sex or condom? Is it to avoid rapid reproduction or to avoid any bad genes being spread? At least, long ago when premarital sex ban was actually almost nearly followed.... I can understand condoms being banned, but does the Pope know what other uses condoms have?
 
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benelori

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^^Not really...the problem of pre-marital sex goes back, waay back...when there were different times, when virginity had higher value, as it symbolized purity...giving up the virginity to create life was more important than pure pleasure...

And regarding pleasure...letting pleasure take over, means that there's higher chances of broken marriages for example, which is one of the reasons for such ideas...

Of course religions are rooted in tradition, so if by our modern day standards condoms are good, cuz of STDs, unwanted pregnancies etc, we have the right to complain that it's old-fashioned thinking, or outdated...

One can easily say...hey I have control over my sex life, so there's no danger for STDs, or any other problems...but is this true for the entire human kind? Not really...people are irresponsible and are driven by instinct, so in order to insert some discipline, some guiding into people's lives, the Church as an institution has to reach decisions, like this...
One needs to comprehend the bigger picture when it comes to things like this IMO and to actually comment on it, because it's not a personal problem, it's a problem concerning an entire community...

And there's also the ethical side of this...


Besides, what happens if premarital sex occurs? The authority figure of that religion cuts off the genitals of the offenders? :\
I see the sarcasm, but you know...the idea of conscience guilty or not is the main thing...the process of asking forgiveness from God, because one explored the pure world of pleasures:p...

It's more like an inner process...
 
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blai

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people are irresponsible and are driven by instinct, so in order to insert some discipline, some guiding into people's lives, the Church as an institution has to reach decisions, like this...
One needs to comprehend the bigger picture when it comes to things like this IMO and to actually comment on it, because it's not a personal problem, it's a problem concerning an entire community...

The thing is that I never once saw the Church as a valid institute to forbid things or found laws that controls our lives. However, they are more than welcome to provide us with guidelines in how to live, or rather, how they would want us to live. If we want to do it or not is up to us because after all, the Church is not God, and not even God wishes to rule or control our lives. What God did was to provide Moses, and the people of Israel with ten commandments and these commandments were of religious and moral imperatives to help them live their life free of sin.

However, to sin, should always be a choice. Temptation, should always be there. So should Gluttony. Because without sin, there's no goodness. Without wrong, there is no right.

To forbid the evil, then the good is not justified.

As a wise man once said "If you're only doing what you're told, it's not you who are living your life" and I believe that God does not wishes to force us, nor control us because that's not the God I know, nor the God I believe in.

(ps. I only wanted to respond to that paragraph because if I'd respond to all of it I'd just make a wall of text that nobody would like to read :p)




@ Milly, please save the smart comments for the less serious threads >,>
 

benelori

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That's true...however please don't take this ban seriously or should I say literally...the Church is very much aware of the fact that the people have their own choices, because that is something that is the core of the belief...God gave free will to people...

That's why the banning of the condoms is really just a message not some text book rule...there's no indication that at the end of my Credo for example, I will have to add
I believe that banning condoms was a good idea.
This entire situation is just a message that reinforces the Church's official position on the matter...the main idea and reasoning IMO is the one I posted earlier...

So it's okay to not recognize the Church as an authority, or an institution whose rules need to be obeyed...an intelligent and educated person should search for the meaning behind such a message, and follow the consequences in real life...
 

blai

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That's true...however please don't take this ban seriously or should I say literally...the Church is very much aware of the fact that the people have their own choices, because that is something that is the core of the belief...God gave free will to people...

That's why the banning of the condoms is really just a message not some text book rule...there's no indication that at the end of my Credo for example, I will have to add
I believe that banning condoms was a good idea.
Exactly. You said it correctly yourself "God gave free will to people". Then, if the Church dislikes the way pre-martial sex, or sex without a procreational intent is sinful in itself, then that is what they should address.

What they should have done, is said "The Church would like to address their dislike and disapproval when it comes to sex intended for pleasure and the use of Condoms.

Instead, by verbally banning the use of condoms they are basically saying "The Church is still the highest deciding authority and we are a force to be reckoned with." and that is where my dislike for this whole thing erupts.

I respect the Church and I respect the people who sees the Church as the highest deciding authority, as the most valid religious institution in the Catholic world but to globally ban something is disrespectful.

It's an incredible generalisation that I do not believe God would have made because he sees us all as individuals and if the Church fails to do so then they fail as being the closest thing to God in my eyes.

Disapproving is one thing, banning is another.



So it's okay to not recognize the Church as an authority, or an institution whose rules need to be obeyed...an intelligent and educated person should search for the meaning behind such a message, and follow the consequences in real life...
Indeed. An intelligent person should listen but never blindly obey.
 

benelori

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Ah I see...

That's indeed a good approach of the problem...but let's consider this type of person...the one that is afraid of the consequences of not using a condom, but who still has premarital sex...

If it's the religious type, which in essence is contradictory, but unfortunately this blind type is the most spread...then banning condoms will actually force him not to have premarital sex...I'm not saying forcing someone is good...but when dealing with people who don't have a sense of responsibility and control, such measures are the best....the moral and ethical side of the matter doesn't really count here, cuz there's no basis, but it eliminates the danger of STD and unwanted children...will this person be able to comprehend the core of the problem even if it's addressed the way you did? Or is it better to just say it like that and the person will do it

If it's not the blind religious type, then discussion over...

The main idea is...intelligence, self control and sense of responsibility is the key here...those who have this why complain? And those who don't, who are the primary target of such a message, should obey it right?:amuse

But these arguments don't cover the morality side of the problem, which in some eyes is probably the most important...
 
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i seriously think this is getting out of hands, i mean for real, i was pert enough to answer according to my knowledge limits till some time ago but its getting useless here.
for one i doubt atheism or agnosticism is a religion and mostly what you guys are posting are opinions which the prior discussion points out you guys dont want to change. So its thread of religious QA you guys should name it sth abt falsifying the religion thread or sth. I mean so far i havent come across any question about islam so i seriously feel that its not serving the purpose at all.
 

Roflkopt3r

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i seriously think this is getting out of hands, i mean for real, i was pert enough to answer according to my knowledge limits till some time ago but its getting useless here.
for one i doubt atheism or agnosticism is a religion and mostly what you guys are posting are opinions which the prior discussion points out you guys dont want to change. So its thread of religious QA you guys should name it sth abt falsifying the religion thread or sth. I mean so far i havent come across any question about islam so i seriously feel that its not serving the purpose at all.
Religious discussion always includes discussion about religion, and discussion about religion involves the question "religion yes or no". Atheism is the absence of religion, and that can be reasoned as well as why people do believe in religion.
 

benelori

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i seriously think this is getting out of hands, i mean for real, i was pert enough to answer according to my knowledge limits till some time ago but its getting useless here.
for one i doubt atheism or agnosticism is a religion and mostly what you guys are posting are opinions which the prior discussion points out you guys dont want to change. So its thread of religious QA you guys should name it sth abt falsifying the religion thread or sth. I mean so far i havent come across any question about islam so i seriously feel that its not serving the purpose at all.
This is not just a QA thread you know...it's about religious discussions...which kinda involves everything from faith, to dogmas, interpretations etc...
Questions about islam...well I'm sorry there aren't many, but if I'm interested in Islam, then I will just grab a book and read about it, sorry...
 

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Culture is an evolutionary strategy, and values must be judged by the consequences of the kind of behaviours they encourage.

It doesn't matter wether the belief is religious or secular, and indeed, students of the history of religion often speak of the religious nature of secular thought. Nor is there a difference between religious and secular thinking at the neurophysiological level. I posted this to someone elses blog a while ago but the blog owner didn't find it relevant enough to post. It contains some material that might be relevant here.

1.
I think its worth asking what religious and secular ethics even mean in the first place, when students of religion cannot even define the religious and the secular as different categories that can be usefully applied across all cultures. (In a similar way, students of comparative philosophy have similar hermaneutic problems when they try to apply labels of culture-specific origin such as epistemology to other societies.) Secondly there exists the bigger problem that students of comparative religion such as Mircea Eliade have demonstrated the presence of mythological and 'religious' thinking within mainstream 'secular' thought such as Marxism, American patriotism and also Neitzsche's ideal of the Superman which has been interpreted as a justification of present action on its not-yet-present behalf. Indeed, it has also been said that all of modern secular politics represents socioeconomic messianism of some kind of another.

In keeping with the observations that there is no objective difference between the religious and the secular, is that there exist no specific parts of the brain that have an exclusively 'religious' or 'secular' functioning. Indeed, there is evidence that the differences in brain structure that separate liberals from conservatives in an American context are of more importance than those separating religious and secular thought, although Conservatives are more likely to be religious.

2.
As for the rationality of atheistic or secular morality, we should be careful to remember that moral values are not components of phenomena themselves, but are merely products of the observers own cognition and therefore exist only in perception. Moral judgments therefore constitute mistaken attempts to describe the nature of phenomena, and there can be no moral knowledge because the word 'knowledge' implies an understanding of the actual nature of phenomena, rather than unsubstantiated perceptions of them. But in spite of the irrefutable logic of error theory, most atheists and other self proclaimed 'rationalists' are not meta-ethical nihilists. It is like people will refute illogic they don't like and then keep clinging to the rest.

This observation actually relates to my first observation, because of course in Western bioethics there is an obsession with 'conciousness' and 'personhood' that can trace its origins to the Christian and especially Protestant ideal of the individual soul, so that the ideal of finding a point in human ontology when a fetus becomes a 'human being' based upon awareness is nothing more than a secular revaluation of the rationally refuted concept of quickening. Likewise most secularists are moral universalists, who support Enlightenment concepts such as human rights and merely disagree between themselves about the proper way to achieve a goal of universal suffrage, but this moral universalism is a part of their culture-specific Christian heritage.

3.
New Atheists like to claim that religion is a costly spandrel or a mind-virus (although they have to justify this position by resorting to selection bias). And politicised secularists actually make one-sided, moralistic arguments against the historical 'crimes' of religion so frequently, that their ridiculous claims that religion is purely costly and harmful (despite being so successful for centuries!) are obviously an example of the 'ought-is' or moralistic logical fallacy.

But it is through morals that religion (and other ideologies) control people. What if the capacity for moral judgement itself is a useless and costly spandrel? Many of the 'crimes' that were perpetrated by organised religions or that were justified using religious arguments, were ultimately in the genetic self-interest of the perpetrator.

We should remember that according to Satoshi Kanazawa, the secular left are more likely than the religious right to argue using the moralistic fallacy, as can be seen by their reliance upon accusations involving -isms and -phobias, as well as the leftist nature of the 'sociobiology wars' etc.

4.
We should also remember that to appeal to novelty is a logical fallacy, just as is appeal to tradition. And the widespread secular support for policies such as pro-choice and gay marriage is obviously based on the appeal of novelty, given how few of the average policy-supporters actually understand the issues in question. Far from being proof of secular rationality, the fact that certain political positions are so popular among secularists who haven't considered the issues actually confirms that the average secularist is a herd animal, who is either incapable of making his own decisions about social issues or is too spineless to go against the herd so he still follows it anyway, even if it takes him off the side of a cliff. In other words, secularists are vulnerable to the same forms of social control as the religious are.

Although secular ethics are almost always universalist, I notice that secular types prefer to ignore inconvenient universals, such as the universality of some kind of family values, that all cultures associate womanhood with childbirth and childrearing, or that heterosexual marriage is universal whilst homosexual marriage is not. Of course conservative ethics are frequently nonsensical, but so are moralistic, secular statements such as "marriage is about love, not the family!" and "women do not exist simply to have babies", once one takes into account the implications of sociobiology for humans, or of functionalism in anthropology.

Despite the efforts of secular humanists to dismiss matters of sex as socially irrelevant, the fact is that all cultures possess taboos and laws about sexual behaviour that universally support the heterosexual family. In ancient Greece homosexuality was widely practiced, tolerated and according to correct social context, encouraged. Yet these men were still expected to have heterosexual families, and homosexual marriage was unheard of. I shouldn't need to point out the biological explanation why heterosexuality alone was favoured in Greek marriage customs, or why some cultures have completely condemned and persecuted homosexuals with no ill-effect to the survival of the group at large, although no cultures have ever persecuted heterosexuals in the same way. Of course matters of sexual behaviour are not socially irrelevant, and anyone who thinks that they are, is extremely ignorant of anthropology.

Another logical fallacy is the 'fallacists fallacy', which is the fallacy by which things are considered to be irrational because they have been rationalised. But humans always rationalise things, and all that matters is the usefulness of the rationalisation in promoting behaviour. As cultural beliefs are subject to natural selection, it is not the rationalisation itself but its outcomes that must be judged as rational, and religious taboos and preferences that are widely practiced across cultures and over centuries are therefore tried and tested as practical. In contrast to this vast body of accumulated practical experience, much of secular ethics comes accross as children throwing toys out of their pram.
 
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faintsmile1992

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Discuss this quote which demonstrates the nature of belief (here labelled as 'religion' because hesterton's Christian religion demands faith) as opposed to the nature of superstition, and reflects that religion can't be reduced to any one psychological impulse.

"Sane peasants, healthy hunters, are all superstitious; they are superstitious because they are healthy and sane. They have a reasonable fear of the unknown; for superstition is only the creative side of agnosticism. The superstitious man sees quite plainly that the universe is a thing to be feared. The religious man maintains paradoxically that the universe is a thing to be trusted." - GK Chesterton

---------- Post added at 07:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:09 AM ----------

That's why I prefer humanism about religious forms of it. It's based on respect to each other, non-violence, freedom of conscience and tolerance, so there is no risk of harming or despising each other out of weird ideologies.
Stuff like marking all homosexuals as sinners for example is a clear seperation between the value of people and will lead to some kind of conflict sooner or later.
Respect and tolerance ought *not* to be unconditional, because the personal conscience is just something that people make up as they go along, not something that ought to be treated as sacrosanct.

Ultimately the people proclaiming ideologies that they claim are based upon respect and tolerance towards others as equals, are in reality motivated by feelings of resentment and by the self-interested Will to Power, just like everyone else.

Secular humanism is just the sklavenmoral aspect of Christianity with a new, superficially rational mask, and is yet deeply irrational.
 
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