Society Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

[shaheer]

Okay, time for a little history. We would read that statement today and think it is racist (and in turn against God), but it was actually very acceptable and in fact supported by the Church in the 1800's. The earliest "hypothesis" of race was that there were three different races, European, Oriental and African, and each race was descended from a son of Noah.

err yes i know that the church used to distinuish races on basis of the 3 childred of Noah and the curse of Caanan its there in Genesis
but i am not adherent to Church or Bible so that Hypothesis doesnt work for me, one of the Muazzin(one who calls for prayer, second most imp person after then Imam ie leader) in the time of the Prophet (saw) was a black, that kind of distiction with three child of Noah is not there in my faith so i quoted it as a reference, but i agree i needed to be a bit more candid abt my post. I generalized it a bit too much

The idea of modern atheism is to look at the scriptures, look at the history and be decide that believing in god is not worth it and/or most certainly absurd. I would argue it's more ethical because modern atheists are continually challenged on their views, versus people who hide in religion when they are the most godless people on Earth. You see, modern atheists are intent on proving that they are more ethical than the church, so they do so by arranging charities.

My point is there is no meaning to it if you look at it that way, i am not saying Atheist cant be moral or i am not saying they are not moral i am saying there is no reason for them to be Moral

Social Darwinism was not a Darwin invention.

never said that its Darwins invention i just said that in order to establish a social norm different kind of theories are put into practice one of them is social darwinism

 

[Josef]

http://redcresearch.ie/wp-content/u...ress-release-Religion-and-Atheism-25-7-12.pdf

Religious and Atheism index 2012.^^

 

[Zehahaha]

Hmm good to see there's such a thread here
Well... This may be a bit controversial, but what do you think about Islam ?

P.S : I'm a muslim, by I just want a healthy debate here and see what you think

 

[silver_soul]

Salam. I too am a Muslim but I think you're gonna have to a bit more specific with your question. Which particular aspect of Islam do you wish to discuss?

 

[blai]

I'm not a fan of religions, be it Islam or Zoroastrian. I respect them, but I'm in no way a fan.

 

[Gats]

Hmm good to see there's such a thread here
Well... This may be a bit controversial, but what do you think about Islam ?

P.S : I'm a muslim, by I just want a healthy debate here and see what you think

Salam. I too am a Muslim but I think you're gonna have to a bit more specific with your question. Which particular aspect of Islam do you wish to discuss?

Did any of you read the whole Koran ? And what about your surrounding ?

 

[Akainu]

it comes from another time and another place which is causing a few problems, but it's really hardly possible to tell about the whole religion with its many facettes without being generalizing and going wrong, no?

that said, maybe a little too specific, but why are there so many muslim men with (partly) long beards?

 

[Gats]

it comes from another time and another place which is causing a few problems, but it's really hardly possible to tell about the whole religion with its many facettes without being generalizing and going wrong, no?

that said, maybe a little too specific, but why are there so many muslim men with (partly) long beards?

Because the Prophet said keeping the beard is one of the 10 actions which are part of "the beauty and plenitude of the male's body" (called fit'ra) which leads to the superior goal... I don't much about the details.

Or at least it is one of the interpretations.

But yeah I'm interested to see if you guys have the same interpretation.

PS : I am not Muslim.

 

[Akainu]

that's interesting, becaus I only knew the other part, which is supposed to say something like "get rid of all excess hair" (?) maybe that's only below the head though? or only for women? that's another word islam could imo be described with: mystery ^^;

 

[xi0]

There's also the part where you don't see Muslim men wearing neckties often either

 

[Josef]

that's interesting, becaus I only knew the other part, which is supposed to say something like "get rid of all excess hair" (?) maybe that's only below the head though? or only for women? that's another word islam could imo be described with: mystery ^^;

I think that is due to many of the nations that have Islam as the most practiced religion are a bit closed off to the rest of the world. Not all things come strictly from the Koran I think, some traditions develop over time due to social or historical consequences. In Christianity for example such a thing are The Christmas Tree and Santa Claus. But compared to those things I think Islam is in tune with the core value system, but there may be a few things that have changed over the years. Still it is the religion that holds most to it's roots anyway.

 

[silver_soul]

Because the Prophet said keeping the beard is one of the 10 actions which are part of "the beauty and plenitude of the male's body" (called fit'ra) which leads to the superior goal... I don't much about the details.

Or at least it is one of the interpretations.

But yeah I'm interested to see if you guys have the same interpretation.

PS : I am not Muslim.

Pretty much, yeah. As it was also a practice of The Prophet (SAW), many men try to emulate and there are a few other accounts of The Prophet (SAW) advocating the beard for men. It's a good question, even among muslims, the importance of the beard is discussed ( to some length actually) but it's not really something I dwell on too much, personally.

that's interesting, becaus I only knew the other part, which is supposed to say something like "get rid of all excess hair" (?) maybe that's only below the head though? or only for women? that's another word islam could imo be described with: mystery ^^;

The concept of fit'ra gats mentioned covers this also. It's a few things including cutting the moustache, keeping the beard, shaving hair under the arm pits and the pubic hair (which is what I think you're referring to?) among other things.

There's also the part where you don't see Muslim men wearing neckties often either

Lol, I dunno about that. First I've ever heard of it.

Hope that clears a few things. I must admit though, for a muslim, my knowledge on Islam is modest and these answers probably reflect that, but the above are common matters I grew up learning about ( Apart from the necktie, am I missing something? )

 

[xi0]

The necktie thing might be just one of my dumb observations that can be explained in other ways

 

[Akainu]

Pretty much, yeah. As it was also a practice of The Prophet (SAW), many men try to emulate and there are a few other accounts of The Prophet (SAW) advocating the beard for men. It's a good question, even among muslims, the importance of the beard is discussed ( to some length actually) but it's not really something I dwell on too much, personally.



The concept of fit'ra gats mentioned covers this also. It's a few things including cutting the moustache, keeping the beard, shaving hair under the arm pits and the pubic hair (which is what I think you're referring to?) among other things.

not exclusively no, but sure it's part of it. maybe the beard leads to the thought that the rest of the body is just as hairy though? is there any place to read about the fitra though, because our old chap wikipedia is somewhat void there.

speaking of which, is the marrying (too) young girls part of the christmas-tree-phenomen josef described? because as far as I remember the prophet had married a 40 something year old business woman, no?

 

[Zehahaha]

Did any of you read the whole Koran ? And what about your surrounding ?

I didn't read it completely to be honest, nor do I have the necessary tools to completely understand it, as it is quite difficult to fully understand it (you gotta be very good at classical Arabic, and have knowledge about the events that happened during the prophet life, because the Quran wasn't sent as a whole, but parts depending on the context)

About the marriage thing, I know our prophet is treated as a pedophile, but I advise you to read this, and yes, he did marry Khadija, which was 40 years old back then, and was his very first wife.

 

[silver_soul]

^ That source, seems like an Ahmediyya site. Do you know of them?

 

[shaheer]

long time since i last visited this place

Did any of you read the whole Koran ? And what about your surrounding ?

Alhamdulillah yes, but i havent finished reading the tafsir(exegesis) yet.

that said, maybe a little too specific, but why are there so many muslim men with (partly) long beards?

it is a practice amongst muslims because there is a statement of the prophet(saw) which states that a muslim should keep long beard. this beauty part is a zelous self explanation of many muslims, the hadith do not state its significance in elevating men's beauty

But compared to those things I think Islam is in tune with the core value system, but there may be a few things that have changed over the years. Still it is the religion that holds most to it's roots anyway.

cant disagree much, there are some historical and social inclusions but the scholars are trying to root them out.

is the marrying (too) young girls part of the christmas-tree-phenomen josef described? because as far as I remember the prophet had married a 40 something year old business woman, no?

Prophet married a girl 15 yrs older than him yes,
As for marrying young girls its not a muslim norm, its a social norm of different countries, the prophet did marry Aisha when she was young but never recommended it to the muslim like the beard.
It was the culture of arabia during that time, age of marriage is not specified in the islamic traditions, it is subjected to any social change that persist in any environment that a muslim live in. That being said we cant marry pre pubescent girls and we cant marry without the permission of the guardians like father or elder brother if father is absent.
With the general guide lines in account the age of marriage is subjective to muslims.
Most of the muslim parody movies portray it like we sniff off lolies and bang them.


as for the site i agree that there is a contention amongst the source but the source of this later contention is weak, the History of Imam tabari has a preface saying he collected any saying without proper checking of Isnads so that later gen can weed out the weak narration after study and dont need the lengthy task of compiling sayings in the first place, thats y you have the satanic verses there.
Though Imam Ibn Kathir quoted it in Al biday an Nihaya, so that is the only decent source of information that we have. apart from some works of Imam Bukhari
Given that that site is ahmadiyya so its better not to indulge much into it.
the correct view is (as far as i know) it was a norm then. my own great grandmother married at the age of 14, back trace it to 1400 years ago. It wasnt a social stigma then. Thats y Prophet never affirmed any one to marry young girls because he knew that specifying it is wrong, maritial social norm changes as time goes, we cant use our social justice system to justify or incriminate an action that was socially justified 1000 years ago.
The age for marriage is a fluid issue in Islam you can marry girls at their early age(after puberty) but that is saying you can choose a number after 12.
We dont specify the age of marriage its an issue subjective to culture social norm of ones time

 

[Josef]

I have to ask is living in a secular, yet mostly Muslim country, like Turkey(I think others were as well?) better for practicing the religion than a total Islamist country, like Iran? I mean it is pretty obvious, but maybe I should word that in this way: Are people that have freedom of religion in Muslim countries are more devoted to their faith than those that are in totally under a "religious dictatorship"(which can in ways bend the rules of the religion and ruin the core of it to fit it's won needs, ahh Machiavelli. xD).

Also, I think it was Max Weber that predicted the decline of religion in the West, could such a phenomenon come for free Muslim countries as well?

I can only go from what I have seen Turkey, but I really want to visit free Muslim countries that practice the religion like some in the far East.

---------- Post added at 04:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:37 AM ----------

Most of the muslim parody movies portray it like we sniff off lolies and bang them.

Lol. Leave it to the media to show religion(any kind of) in a bad light. :/

 

[shaheer]

I have to ask is living in a secular, yet mostly Muslim country, like Turkey(I think others were as well?) better for practicing the religion than a total Islamist country, like Iran?

hmm Iran is not a complete Muslim country neithr is Turkey, we dont have a full muslim country yet, the caliphate went to ruins quite a few years before it was finally destroyed in 1924.

To give you an example of freedom of religion, during the time of prophet a christian delagion came to talk with him, and the prophet allowed them to pray in the mosque/masjid.
so if it were a purely muslim country with islamic law, if there are no place for christian to pray in a muslim land a temporary segregated space to pray can be given from the masjid, but unfortunately we have too much of zealous worshipers who do more damage than they can think by being too full of themselves

 

[Josef]

hmm Iran is not a complete Muslim country neithr is Turkey, we dont have a full muslim country yet, the caliphate went to ruins quite a few years before it was finally destroyed in 1924.

To give you an example of freedom of religion, during the time of prophet a christian delagion came to talk with him, and the prophet allowed them to pray in the mosque/masjid.
so if it were a purely muslim country with islamic law, if there are no place for christian to pray in a muslim land a temporary segregated space to pray can be given from the masjid, but unfortunately we have too much of zealous worshipers who do more damage than they can think by being too full of themselves

Well maybe a majority Islam country is better off than a divided one, like we have in my country here, I do not understand the antagonism though, it is kind of taboo to speak it, but there are certainly political reasons more than religious. I have been inside a Muslim church and they allow it here, perhaps due to living in a small town(with an everyone known everyone mentality) so it was nothing too strange. I personally love to visit holy sites, they have both artistic and historical value.

Well, sadly with the young generation being all fired up against each other here, those days are sadly in the past, I am sick at how a weird phenomenon my country is to every other place.