Society Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

Introspectve

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So they did have free will, but it was a one choice deal?!?
Or they have free will to make simple decisions, with the single proviso that they can never change their minds on decisions which they have already undertaken?!?

And it surely must have been his intention - it would have been weird for him to give them a one time 'free will' card, only to know that they would blow it in the way that they did - know before he had created them in the first place.

Added to that, if he knew that they would (and it would then be likely that he intended it - unless he is just doing things at random), then why does the fact that they acted as he knew they would annoy him?

Why would he give them a one time free will card in this case?
Does God enjoy being annoyed?
The bible or jewish books don't say exactly that it's a one time deal but more specifically, they "are sent to hell because of the irreversible nature of their decision." However "Does God enjoy being annoyed" This plays back to example about the spouse that is forced to act like she loves you, and the spouse that chooses to love you. The fact that going against God is technically an option for angels makes the ones that stayed faithful more meaningful.

Again my speculation is damaged because I have to compare the psychology of God to man's and if he is real it is unlikely that his mind is anything like ours. Upon the assumption that he is anything like us, the value of his decisions in terms of creation are centered around love.
 

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The bible or jewish books don't say exactly that it's a one time deal but more specifically, they "are sent to hell because of the irreversible nature of their decision."
What makes the nature of this decision any more irreversible than any other choice?
Because they are going against God himself?

If this is the case, why does mankind have such a wonderful privilege, in that we can go against God all our lives, but then later, at the end, find redemption and be accepted into God's kingdom - but the angels can not?

Does God like us more than he likes angels? Is this why he blessed us with such things as free will and the right to be a dick to him throughout our lives and then change our minds at the end?

Does God love the angels in heaven?

However "Does God enjoy being annoyed" This plays back to example about the spouse that is forced to act like she loves you, and the spouse that chooses to love you. The fact that going against God is technically an option for angels makes the ones that stayed faithful more meaningful.
Not really - that would only be arguable if God didn't already know what action they would take. If he wasn't omniscient and hadn't made them in a way that they would end up choosing either him or Lucifer.

if he is real it is unlikely that his mind is anything like ours. Upon the assumption that he is anything like us, the value of his decisions in terms of creation are centred around love.
Why do you make this assumption?
Can God also make decisions in terms of creation centred around hate? Or lust? Or fear? Or spite?

Can God even experience emotions in the way that humans do?

What kind of love?
What does love even mean for a being like God?
 
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Introspectve

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What makes the nature of this decision any more irreversible than any other choice?
Because they are going against God himself?

If this is the case, why does mankind have such a wonderful privilege, in that we can go against God all our lives, but then later, at the end, find redemption and be accepted into God's kingdom - but the angels can not?

Does God like us more than he likes angels? Is this why he blessed us with such things as free will and the right to be a dick to him throughout our lives and then change our minds at the end?

Does God love the angels in heaven?


Not really - that would only be arguable if God didn't already know what action they would take. If he wasn't omniscient and hadn't made them in a way that they would end up choosing either him or Lucifer.


Why do you make this assumption?
Can God also make decisions in terms of creation centred around hate? Or lust? Or fear? Or spite?

Can God even experience emotions in the way that humans do?

What kind of love?
What does love even mean for a being like God?
Again reference to Genesis, "let's make man in our image," there is reason to believe, whether it's psychology or physiology or both, man resembles God. If i assume it is psychology, the his decisions are based on love. "Lust, spite" those are actually called sinful desires, sin as in "against God" so I wouldn't consider them something he is afflicted with. However it may also be exclusively metaphorical when they refer to hum as experiencing emotions such as anger. It is said that God hates sin and evil, the fact of the matter is that he technically has relinquished control over your minds. If he had control we wouldn't be able to choose evil. Whether or not he knows it's going to happen doesn't mean he is attempting to control it.

It's a very controversial topic and I really never cared enough to figure it out. God's intentions based on how humans wrote down their interactions with him is little to evidence to identify his presence or absence. All I can tell you is that you will only be able to understand God with the assumption that he is little more than a powerful human. Knowing that it won't get you far to try.
 
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IIRC the theological bit about angels and their decision was that the nature of how they make decisions. Being spiritual beings angels exist outside time and whatnot. Changing your mind is not quite the same when time does not apply to you and on top of that angels of all levels are supposed to be powerful and intelligent. So its not that they can't change their mind, they simply already made their mind on the issue. Of course, you could question why there would be a test for angels or even a decision to be made in that regard (this applies to catholic theology, I don't know about other denominations and considering I read about this stuff a pretty damn long time ago when I was probably a tad more spiritual than now I am probably murky on the subject).
 

M3J

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God is still a selfish, egotistical asshole who cares more about his pride and the fact that he has people following him and obeying him than he does about people. This is based on the Bible and defenses people use for god. Not to mention, most religious people are selfish because they're not doing it for god, they're doing it for themselves.

And despite all of that, I cannot wholeheartedly say religions are bad. Just its people.
 

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Holy hell m3j you are issuing some fighting words right there dude. Now I am NOT religious and is a pretty damn proud athiest but you have to respect other people's choices in what they want to believe in as long as they don't harm others. I really don't believe in God or gods but how would one even know of His emotions if he did exist? And you cannot generalize the religious people based on what you do not know. Religious people may seem selfish because they just want to go to heaven blah blah but even I can't ignore the benefits that society reaps from their selfishness. I'm selfish and I am not feeding the homeless but the local church group is. The mosque is holding beach cleanups. The buddhist temple monks are donating money to help pay for a funeral. I find the selfishness of these people to be quite rewarding. But wait, many times it isn't even selfishness. A lot of religious people just plain old want to help others because they are brought up to be forgiving, to help others because it is what...let's say it is what Jesus would do. It plainly, is just the right thing to do and if they idolize someone from history and adopt his values then so be it.

Religions aren't bad and their followers are usually not bad either. The actions and voices of a few million bad followers does not mean that the other 2 billion share the sentiment, rather they are embarrassed. If we look at it this way, the ratio is saying that most religious people are good. I myself chose science but the Jehova's Witnesses I know aren't cultish. The more I talk to different religious people the more interested I am. Everybody is so focused. Focused on enlightenment, focused on being saved, focused on finding life in lakes miles underneath antarctica. These are all selfish people with their own goals. So what? Being religious doesn't exempt you from selfishness any less than a person working to cure cancer being selfish for huge financial gains once he discovers the breakthrough.

Let me make it clear though I am against M3J for being rude, I am in no way endorsing religions aside from learning about them for historical knowledge. I personally am interested just because of the amazing lore, the history, the focus, and I'd hate to be that ignorant American. All I know is that people will defend their god(s) and/or prophets the same you would defend someone you respect when they are being bashed. People can disagree but do not need to be offensive on this sensitive subject.

Personally I want to know what if we can go back in time and instead of Mu Ammad being made fun of and instead it was Jesus who was being made fun of and publicized by a prominent Islamic country what would Christians do? Bush would have found a way to put sanctions on the country which really will just screw the people even more in the end, if not bomb them using some stupid reason. Or what if it was Guan Yin Pusa that was made fun of? Yep now buddhists will be enraged as hell. If you talk trash about someone's mom, eventually you will get punched in the face. So I think we should just be nicer to each other whether we believe in any religion or not we can argue without getting heated as long as insults aren't blatantly traded with little forethought. Rawr. Goodnight.
 
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M3J

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It's them harming others that I don't agree with. Christians, Hindus, Muslims, etc have its share of extremists and devout people whose convoluted ways harm others. And based on what I have read & the responses from religious debates, people are religious/believe in god solely because they don't want to go to hell, not because they love him. Not all are like this, I know, but many are. Though maybe they help others out of selflessness. I know couple of religious people who are selfless. It looks like I'm generalizing (and at the time, I might have been), but I truly am not.

Would they do it if Jesus didn't want them to? If it didn't make them look good and increase their chances of getting into heaven?

I have defended religion and think it is/was necessary to keep order, but many of its followers go too far. India's religious way of doing things holds back its growth as a society, where women are oppressed severely and lower the caste you go, the lower the respect. Christians will refer to the Bible to justify hatred, whether treating colored people like crap or hating homosexuals. Many followers aren't evil, but they can't say they're purehearted either. But when I said many of its followers are problematic, I was mainly thinking extremists and people who go too far.

And the Bible basically implies god doesn't give a crap as long as his ego is satisfied. If you don't pray to him and stuff, you go to hell even if you are a super person. If he wants to prove a point that he has loyal followers, he will not have an issue giving them a shitty life, and then bribing them to make up for it. God is happy to flood the world and kill sinners, but he won't do anything to help the world as it is now, with people being killed and all (Boko Haram?). I am not being offensive, I chose my words carefully, but I find it hard not to think of god of anything but what I said, given the Bible and what people have said.

I enjoy reading lores of religions as well, my favorite being Greek and Egypt. I find it fascinating. Doesn't mean I have to tolerate or accept many of its followers' ways of thinking or actions derived from their beliefs. I am quite sure majority are embarrassed by action of few, especially by the extremists' actions. I know many Muslims are disgusted with ISIS, honor killings, and all.

I have seen no reason to believe that many religious people aren't devout out of selfishness. If you tell them there's no such thing as hell or heaven, will they still believe in god? Live a good life and help others? If god is truly a benevolent being, then why does he not help his followers? Why does he not get rid of the sinners? Why would he give one of his devout followers a shitty life just to prove a point to Satan, even if he made up for it? Why would he lose his temper when Adam and Eve defied his wish?
 

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Well, religion has and always will be a sensitive topic. I'm a Christian and I do believe in God. Aside from being brought up this way, I've taken personal views and I saw that my opinion didn't change.
Personally what I think is that everyone's religious views/beliefs should be respected whatever they might be. Regardless of what anyone thinks, its not right to put down another because of their beliefs.

I don't like to deliberate too much on this, but from an objective standpoint (assuming I'm simply someone that doesn't believe in anything), is it really possible to understand how God's mind works? His thoughts? The reasons? People are always quick to blame some misfortune on God, what about when good things happen?

Either way, the most important thing to me is that God said not to judge. People often forget this when they point at others for 'going against God'. I often say to myself, that is the best thing we have. We don't have to judge. In fact, we are not to. So whatever anyone believes/does, its between them and their creator.
 

M3J

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I assume they also thank god when they say "Thank God" or "PRAISE DA LORD!!"
 

xi0

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Personally what I think is that everyone's religious views/beliefs should be respected whatever they might be. Regardless of what anyone thinks, its not right to put down another because of their beliefs.
Respect is earned. I'm from the school of thought that beliefs are not sacred enough to not be above ridicule/criticism. Especially if they go against common decency. I mean, labeling something as a "belief", and therefore it should just be accepted as something "sacred" is just ridiculous IMO. There are any number of crazy beliefs that have no place in the modern world.

And it goes both ways. While I'm not assuming this of you, way too many who demand said respect, don't offer it in return to those whose beliefs are different or nonexistent.
 

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Respect is earned. I'm from the school of thought that beliefs are not sacred enough to not be above ridicule/criticism. Especially if they go against common decency. I mean, labeling something as a "belief", and therefore it should just be accepted as something "sacred" is just ridiculous IMO. There are any number of crazy beliefs that have no place in the modern world.

And it goes both ways. While I'm not assuming this of you, way too many who demand said respect, don't offer it in return to those whose beliefs are different or nonexistent.
Yes, I do know people do all sorts under the pretext of religion as well as usually feel they are somewhat better because of that. Its part of what usually causes issues. I mean, we do have free will, yet people believe they can shove their own religious views down others and typically disregard those who don't share their view.


I do read up on a number of criticisms about religion, evil etc. Frankly, it doesn't exactly bother me. Even in the Bible, Jesus (and His disciples as well), had times when their views were questioned and even dismissed. Actually that was pretty often, even from High Priests and others. So, I don't exactly see a problem with it.

Ditto about respect. Same for whatever religion or whatever belief (or lack of) anyone may have. Personally, I just believe, 'to each his own'.
 

M3J

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Besides, the Bible wasn't meant to be taken literally, was it? It was about teaching lessons, like "you shall not kill" and "no having sex with another man's wife" and etc.
 

xi0

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Of course it was meant to be taken literally. But the text is so old/edited that a lot of it no longer applies to our daily lives, or should be completely rebuked.
 
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Like what things don't apply?
 

xi0

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Like mentioning women/wives in the same sentence as chattel.
 

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Does it? I believe it simply emphasizes on husbands and wives respecting and loving each other.
 

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Oh, I actually misunderstood. You're staying things like that are in the OT? Well, that's partly right. Partly because that wasn't what the Bible was passing across. The OT is mostly about telling the tales of back then. Basically, that would be how people acted back then but that doesn't mean the Bible or the prophets were encouraging such. Although I don't really remember instances like that.

The New Testament is the actual guide. That's what we are supposed to abide by. Even then, the messages and guidelines of the Bible remain relatively the same all through.
 

xi0

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The difference between the New and Old Testament is pretty severe. But that mostly has to do with different authors/edits, and different "Gods", by what some evidence suggests.
 

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Its not. What's mostly different is how the people lived and not the teachings.
There aren't different God's either. In the NT, Jesus was personally teaching. The slight differences were due to Jesus coming down and the effects of His sacrifice.
The teachings remain the same. Jesus elaborated on the commandments which God gave Moses for the people to live by.
 
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