Discussion Rocks D. Xebec

[Zmsp]

Well, I've seen plenty of loose thoughts on Xebec across several different threads, but I found no thread that exclusively focuses on discussing one of the most mysterious and anticipated characters in the series. He had a late introduction, but the ramifications of who he was as a character seem absurdly important.

It feels like there's so much to discuss about the character that a dedicated thread makes sense.
So, a couple of key points that seem interesting to discuss:

Is he dead? Is he alive? Is he King of the World?
What happened 38 years ago, in God Valley?
Did Sengoku tell us the truth, or what he believes to be the truth of it?
How strong was he really? Did he have a Devil Fruit?
Lineage? Descendants?
Rocks Pirates: do we know about all of them?
Blackbeard's relationship with him?


I guess I'll start: I think the God Valley incident was a set up, with a kidnapping involved, and someone/several someones from the Rocks Pirates are currently Celestial Dragons on the back of that. It was internal strife that led to their demise, not Roger and Garp.

 

[Zmsp]

Well, I'll try to promote discussion with something that's been bothering me for a while.

There are a lot of weird things about Roger, and the whole "freedom loving good guy" archtype is starting to sound weird in my head. He has a lot less parallels to Luffy than what we were initially led to believe, aside from seemingly the same dream, but no context on what it means to each one of them, and a lot of unanswered questions.

The guy started a whole pirate age on the back of this prophecy he wouldn't be around to see, and while that could be rationalized as something good, it probably brought along more harm than good. Think of the amount of people who we've been constantly told that suffered at the hands of this pirate age. In fact, think of the type of pirate that he would be compelling to be the "destined one" by making loot the ultimate goal. I mean, sure, he'd also be enticing the adventurous type, but if he really took the prophecy to heart, wouldn't that person come along anyway?

I know we've been given a very romanticized view on Roger, but his obsession with being the one to make it come true is very egotistical as well, to a point that it doesn't sit well with the view we had on him: he deliberately told Rayleigh that he was going to make a son that would fulfill the prophecy. I mean, you could even question his feelings for Rougue, or if she was a tool to make his dream come true. He did what he set out to do: make a son. Look at what Rogue and Ace went through on the back of that.

Where's his body? He told Rayleigh he wouldn't die, we assumed that's because of the inherited will concept and thought little of it, but now we're 1000+ chapters in and we've got clones, zombies, revive fruits time travel, eggs and other weird things going on. He learned about true history, he didn't have a Devil Fruit when he became the Pirate King, and that's all we know for now, or at least that's all we think we know. I wouldn't be shocked if part of it was bullshit, and there are a few hints that suggest he's on the marine structure now, although I can't tell if he's actually working for them or infiltrating for the sake of a bigger plan.

Stepping aside from narrative stuff that feels a bit weird, and going a bit more into the bigger picture, we have guys like Shanks, who've always been a projection of Roger and seen in good light, start to show convoluted motives and depictions. We have a Rocky Port incident, that seems to mirror God Valley, with Ochoku stepping in for Xebec, Koby stepping in for Garp, and that seems solid so far, but then Blackbeard being the Roger? Law being the mastermind behind it? Weird comparisons, ugh?

I'm not trying to be a contrarian or start a conspiracy theory, but this Garp/Roger/Xebec triangle doesn't seem as clear cut as it should.

 

[kkck]

I don't think roger, WB or even shanks are necessarily meant to be characters aligned with good in the story. Roger specially has been framed as being particularly vicious. Shanks and Wb are closer to good than roger probably was however both ultimately run pretty large criminal cartels that wouldn't be on the good side of the law even if the world government wasn't cartoonishly evil.

 

[Fox666]

I don't think roger, WB or even shanks are necessarily meant to be characters aligned with good in the story. Roger specially has been framed as being particularly vicious.

Shanks or Roger never attacked innocent people.

Kid or Squard choose to be pirates. They have nothing to complain.

Shanks and Wb are closer to good than roger probably was however both ultimately run pretty large criminal cartels that wouldn't be on the good side of the law even if the world government wasn't cartoonishly evil.

We have seen enough of the Emperors that we can tell for sure that the way Whitebeard or Shanks ruled their territory is completely different from Kaido, Big Mom or Blackbeard.

When Law mentioned the Emperors control their territories like a crime syndicate, only 3 regions were shown. Law also mentioned it grew in the last 2 years. This supports the idea that Whitebeard and Shanks are not like the others.

And the Cross Guild will 100% control their territory like a mafia too.

 

[kkck]

Shanks or Roger never attacked innocent people.

Kid or Squard choose to be pirates. They have nothing to complain.


We have seen enough of the Emperors that we can tell for sure that the way Whitebeard or Shanks ruled their territory is completely different from Kaido, Big Mom or Blackbeard.

When Law mentioned the Emperors control their territories like a crime syndicate, only 3 regions were shown. Law also mentioned it grew in the last 2 years. This supports the idea that Whitebeard and Shanks are not like the others.

And the Cross Guild will 100% control their territory like a mafia too.

Roger was never a yonko, he was just a guy with a crew with 30 something people. And within that, we have been told he his temperament was quite foul by garp. To me it sounds pretty unlikely a man like that could live without stepping at least into morally grey areas rather constantly. Shanks is different, he is a yonko. As such he has territory, influence and vast amounts of followers. We know for a fact he has territories. Shanks definitely doesn't run things like kaido or even big mom but it's plainly impossible to have an organization like that and not be a criminal to some capacity, evil world government or not. it's not like the world government being evil has anything to do with how roger, shanks or wb did things.

I am not sure the cross guild has territory. It's a new organization which resulted from buggy's pirate dispatch combining with crocodile's company. Buggy was a mercenary without territory, crocodile probably didn't amass territory to control before the yonko fell at least. The cross guild's goal was at least to start their own country which they were funding through the marine bounty system (they get money from the underworld to pay for bounties apparently).

 

[Zmsp]

I don't think roger, WB or even shanks are necessarily meant to be characters aligned with good in the story. Roger specially has been framed as being particularly vicious. Shanks and Wb are closer to good than roger probably was however both ultimately run pretty large criminal cartels that wouldn't be on the good side of the law even if the world government wasn't cartoonishly evil.

Exactly, but I'm not so sure this is the most popular read among readers. I think you'd agree that a lot of people make Luffy to be the heir of Roger's will, and I understand that there's something to it, yes, but Roger is sketchier than he might look.

I'm conflicted about Xebec because of characters like Kuma.

What if Luffy is closer to a Xebec than a Roger? Kaido realized something when Luffy yelled out his ideal sort of world.