Discussion Ryodan's strength

[Phantron]

The lobster Ant cannot shoot through the frontal armor of a tank even though his aura blasts can completely tear apart a Grunt level Ant's body, yet we see repeatedly that even the body of a grunt level Ant can withstand significant punishment from Aura users. In fact, in the case of Spiders we see that the grunt level Ant can simply shrug off all but their biggest physical attack moves with just their body alone.

People need to stop thinking HXH is like Dragonball where anybody can take on an army and win. Hisoka says one of his motivation for getting a Hunter's license is so that he can legally kill people. This is nowhere comparable to trying to fight an army, and we see even someone as powerful as Hisoka doesn't like the idea of constantly being hounded by even law enforcement.

There were no helicopters in the Yorknew arc unless it's something from the Anime. In fact, there are no mention of helicopters in the entire HXH series, probably because helicopters would totally destroy aura users due to their unique combination of hover, firepower, and inaccessability. This isn't Star Wars where people just hurl rocks across the sky to take out aerial stuff. It's quite obvious that the range of aura attacks cannot possibly do meaningful damage to a modern airplane at its operational range. If they can reach that far then you'd just hurl aura blasts like artillery which nobody can do besides Meryem, whose ability is unmatched by anyone in HXH.

Now it's true that because aura itself is pretty much a top secret subject, most people wouldn't have training against them. But you'd only need a relatively small team of special ops to pull it off. Why do people assume you need super fancy equipment to hurt an aura user? If you can buy a knife that can hurt Silva, clearly one of the strongest characters we know of (Silva praised the knife for its exceptional quality, not Kuroro's ability), how can it be possibly that hard to manufacture some armor-piercing rounds that can penetrate an aura user's defenses? By the way only Ubogin was immune to normal assault rifles out of Spiders. In the same arc every other Spider avoided machine gun fire. It's also stressed that Mafia are just a bunch of guy carrying machine guns with no formal training. Anything that can do damage to a tank is more than enough to hurt an aura user. When Ikalgo hit Killua with his sniper rifle it's something a specialized professional can definitely do with a GPS.

Let's say the Ant assault team happened to be near Yorknew when the Spiders went on their rampage. The Spiders would pretty much be dead before they know what they hit them. Nobunaga cautioned to wait for everyone to arrive before pursuing the Chain Assassin because he's aided by a 'Pro Hunter', and yet people somehow think they're supposed to fight off the most elite members of the said organization. Really, do you think Netero needs to strap on a nuke if he was given task to eliminate the Spiders? He can probably do this by himself and he certainly wouldn't need to grab a nuke 'just in case'.

Now if you look at the Ant arc, originally Morel's assessment is that everyone besides himself, Novu, and Netero are pretty much just cannon fodder. This is probably correct as you look at the final outcome, no one besides him did anything meaningful against the Royal Guards. Even with plot immunity none of the guys besides him did anything useful. If not for Komugi, Pitou would've just instantly killed Gon and Killua and there wouldn't even be a chance for Gon to get angry (Pitou was quite confident he can kill Gon in one hit, but can't risk Komugi getting hurt). Yupi certainly had no problem against Shoot and Knuckles. We're also repeatedly given the assessment that everyone minus Morel on the assault team (Netero was never part of the guys fighting Royals) don't even have a chance at defeating a single Royal Guard. In fact, Pufu's assessment of Morel is the perfect irony: "If only you guys had several guys as strong as you, you could've defeated me." The point is that there aren't more guys as strong as Morel in the entire Hunter's organization, unless the Hunter's Association really likes seeing Netero strap on a nuke and blow himself up.

The Ant arc is supposed to involve people who are far above the strongest guys we know at that point. Gon and Kllua aren't supposed to even be worthy to participate in such a fight, even as the role of fodder. But for whatever reason, they did, and turns out to be relatively successful too. Their role, at best, would be like Ikalgo which would be just recon/fodder, but of course that's not what actually happened. The Election Arc gets a lot of blame here too, as in the Election Arc it's apparently perfectly normal for an organization to hold back its best fighters as long as your leader strapped on a nuke, never mind that if this information gets on your organization would instantly be dissolved (this is a weapon banned at the national level and have no business belonging to an organization like Hunter's Association). Way back in the Yorknew arc, Killua said imagine Machi and Nobunaga are like 2 Hisokas to get an understanding of how tough they are. After this battle, it'd be more like 'Imagine Hisoka is like 1/10th of Pitou". The balance is totally off, which is probably why neither Killua nor Gon fought anyone in a meaningful way.

---------- Post added at 07:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:42 PM ----------

If it was as simple as that, Enhancers would be invincible. Uvo is smart, yes but Morau is even smarter, he has smokescreen and doesn't need to be close to his opponent. Do you think they'll just let Uvo punch them? Knov's ability is one of the most broken Hatsu in HXH and for Knuckle and Shoot, they were able to fight against Yupi( who is way stronger , tougher and faster than Uvo) despite that Shoot managed to steal a eye, UVo would have lost body parts more important than that. Knuckle can beat him with hit and run tactics.

Even someone who seems to do nothing useful like Shoot managed to took an eye from Yupi. Now Yupi can simply grow more eyes so that didn't affect him any, but any human character would be seriously messed up by that. The Ant assault team was put together with the craziest hax abilities ever, since the alternative would require some kind of massive nuclear strike to take them out. If the team assembled by the leader of the Hunter's needs to even think about whether his guys can take on members of the Spiders, then why does he think he can possibly fight someone who is basically a God (Meryem), or even his subordinates who Netero says are likely stronger than him? Honestly I don't think Gon and Killua even belonged in the said team, but since both played a pivotal role in the actual assault, this pretty much puts them as 'best the Hunter's Association has available', a power level far beyond the average Spider. As a reminder, Nobunaga wanted to gather everyone together before pursuing Kurapika because he has a "Pro Hunter" friend, and no one called him chicken or anything. They clearly agree Kurapika + "Pro Hunter" = serious problem despite having 10 guys.

 

[Demonspeed]

Killua would be beaten easily? Even Pufu couldn't catch him, how do you expect Uvogin to manage it? I don't care how durable Uvogin is, you aren't going to stand up to electric shocks just by being tough. Gon's abilities don't grant him as much of an advantage as Killua, but they've both come a long way since they first met the Ryodan. Either of them should stand a good chance in a fight against one of the Ryodan members.

Pufu's body was not complete. And Killua was not able to hurt Yupi even with Kanmuru. Every time he used Kanmuru it was not even in a serious fight, he used it to speedblitz Yupi and run away and also to run away of his mansion. In a serious fight he would be obliged to manage his electricity reserves cautiously. Gon and Killua are both way stronger than before but I don't think they are strong enough to beat a Ryodan member. They are still novices, it's as if you were implying that they could beat Knuckle or Shoot.

 

[Phantron]

Pufu's body was not complete. And Killua was not able to hurt Yupi even with Kanmuru. Every time he used Kanmuru it was not even in a serious fight, he used it to speedblitz Yupi and run away and also to run away of his mansion. In a serious fight he would be obliged to manage his electricity reserves cautiously. Gon and Killua are both way stronger than before but I don't think they are strong enough to beat a Ryodan member. They are still novices, it's as if you were implying that they could beat Knuckle or Shoot.

When Killua fought Machi in the darkness, Machi covered her head in anticipation of Killua's attack. Although this fight predates the existence of Ken, it is pretty strong evidence that a Spider absolutely cannot just tank any attack from Killua even way back with aura alone. Machi, who has 6th in physical strength, needs to cover her head because she believes a direct hit could kill her.

With Killua's lightning speed, there would be no chance to even cover your head because by definition it's way too fast for any human to react. Neither Royal Guards can react to this technique despite possessing physical stats that far exceeds human limitations. It only failed on the Royal Guards who are so physically strong that they could tank attacks aimed to kill with their vulnerable body parts easily (Yupi is more than ten times stronger than Killua, according to him, and presumably Pufu is in the same ballpark). Basically the only way to stop this is if you're so strong that you can defend anywhere with just Ken alone, including your head. It's questionable whether any human character have this kind of durability, let alone the Spiders who aren't exceptionally durable in general.

Now if Killua is trying to not kill someone you can possibly ride it out, though I see no reason why he has to be subjected to such an unrealistic restriction. With the power he has at the Ant arc, a direct head on someone's head unguarded will kill them, and Kanmaru is by definition unguardable and unavoidable.

 

[KingOfNight]

If it was as simple as that, Enhancers would be invincible. Uvo is smart, yes but Morau is even smarter, he has smokescreen and doesn't need to be close to his opponent. Do you think they'll just let Uvo punch them? Knov's ability is one of the most broken Hatsu in HXH and for Knuckle and Shoot, they were able to fight against Yupi( who is way stronger , tougher and faster than Uvo) despite that Shoot managed to steal a eye, UVo would have lost body parts more important than that. Knuckle can beat him with hit and run tactics.

Who's to say that Enhancers aren't ? Isn't that the point of saying they are the most balanced group and that only Conjurers, Manipulators and Specialist can have a chance at them ? There is no one to say that Morel is smarter. His smokescreen would be easily blown by Uvogin's rock storm. Do you think he will let them toy with him? If he managed to punch Kurapika twice, then he should also be able to punch these guys. Knov, Knuckle and Shoot can all be defeated by a shout if things get troublesome for Uvo. They are fighting a guy who can kill by punching, shouting, throwing rocks, biting and probably even more. Anything Uvo does can kill.

Also, do you think taking an eye or a limb will matter to a guy who didn't care at all when he was poisoned, bitten, stabbed with hair, paralyzed and with Leeches about to hatch in his bladder ?

---------- Post added at 02:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:16 PM ----------

On second thought, yeah I guess Morel is smarter.

 

[Django]

The lobster Ant cannot shoot through the frontal armor of a tank even though his aura blasts can completely tear apart a Grunt level Ant's body, yet we see repeatedly that even the body of a grunt level Ant can withstand significant punishment from Aura users. In fact, in the case of Spiders we see that the grunt level Ant can simply shrug off all but their biggest physical attack moves with just their body alone.

The Spiders never fought grunt level ants. Grunt level ants are the ones who can't even talk. They were fighting Officers, the ones like Rammot (who can hold his own against Gon and Killua and survive Gon's Rock before learning Nen) so their bodies are pretty durable. Nevertheless, when did they manage to shrug off the Spiders's attacks ? Shizuku was the only one who had trouble dealing with an Officer, and she was the weakest of the group.

People need to stop thinking HXH is like Dragonball where anybody can take on an army and win. Hisoka says one of his motivation for getting a Hunter's license is so that he can legally kill people. This is nowhere comparable to trying to fight an army, and we see even someone as powerful as Hisoka doesn't like the idea of constantly being hounded by even law enforcement.

If law enforcement can't deal with a regular serial killer (Jones) then they can't do a thing against Hisoka or the Troupe. The Spiders can even commit genocide (the Kurta clan) in the most heinous fashion without any kind of consequences (until Kurapika came along of course). The captain of the ship at the beginning says to Kurapika that even the strongest and most experienced Hunter wouldn't even try to attack the Troupe. Hisoka didn't become a Hunter only to kill legally, it was also to have access to unlimited intelligence and all the other perks. He even said he didn't really care about being a Hunter, so law enforcement wasn't really a big concern for him. Not liking the idea of being hounded by law enforcement doesn't mean being afraid of it, it's just that he doesn't want to waste his time killing policemen or regular Hunters.

Now it's true that because aura itself is pretty much a top secret subject, most people wouldn't have training against them. But you'd only need a relatively small team of special ops to pull it off. Why do people assume you need super fancy equipment to hurt an aura user? If you can buy a knife that can hurt Silva, clearly one of the strongest characters we know of (Silva praised the knife for its exceptional quality, not Kuroro's ability), how can it be possibly that hard to manufacture some armor-piercing rounds that can penetrate an aura user's defenses? By the way only Ubogin was immune to normal assault rifles out of Spiders. In the same arc every other Spider avoided machine gun fire. It's also stressed that Mafia are just a bunch of guy carrying machine guns with no formal training. Anything that can do damage to a tank is more than enough to hurt an aura user. When Ikalgo hit Killua with his sniper rifle it's something a specialized professional can definitely do with a GPS.

Phinx, Feitan, Franklin and even Sharnalk were seen fighting head on, without taking care of being hit by bullets. We never see Shizuku, Bonolenov, Pakunoda and Korutopi fighting, so who knows if they were hiding or not. The only one we see really hiding was Machi, and it was probably only because she didn't want to dirty her hands (if Franklin, an Emitter, can take bullets, then Machi, a Transmuter, probably can too). If Uvogin can take an anti-tank rocket, how could mere bullets do anything against the Spiders, no matter how reinforced they are ? Even much weaker guys like Dallzolene can take ten bullets. Silva was wounded by Chrollo's knife because it was sharp, but also because Chrollo struck with incredible strength and speed, and also probably used aura (it was not stated, but if you want to cut your opponent with a poisoned knife that can ensure victory, you better be damn sure the knife is as sharp as possible). Of course I'm not saying the Phantom Troupe can win against an army (and they're not stupid enough to try) but said army would need weapons a lot more powerful than guns.

Let's say the Ant assault team happened to be near Yorknew when the Spiders went on their rampage. The Spiders would pretty much be dead before they know what they hit them. Nobunaga cautioned to wait for everyone to arrive before pursuing the Chain Assassin because he's aided by a 'Pro Hunter', and yet people somehow think they're supposed to fight off the most elite members of the said organization. Really, do you think Netero needs to strap on a nuke if he was given task to eliminate the Spiders? He can probably do this by himself and he certainly wouldn't need to grab a nuke 'just in case'.

Seriously ? What makes you think the Spiders are so weak ? Of course they wouldn't be dead before even knowing what hit them. Morel, Knov, Knuckle and Shoot are certainly able to fight with the Spiders, but Gon and Killua are not. If Netero is with them, maybe they would win (just maybe) but it would be a tough fight. If Netero is not with them, then the Extermination Team doesn't stand a chance, I mean, how could they win 6 against 11 ? And Netero can't defeat the entire Troupe by himself, no matter how strong he is. This is not Dragon Ball Z when the next strong guys are 100 times stronger than the previous strong guys.

The point is that there aren't more guys as strong as Morel in the entire Hunter's organization, unless the Hunter's Association really likes seeing Netero strap on a nuke and blow himself up.

What about the Zodiacs, who are Netero's sparring partners ? What about Biscuit ? What about the Triple Stars Hunters ? Of course the Hunter organization has people as strong if not stronger than Morel and Knov. Those people didn't get involved for political reasons/because they just didn't care. Do you see people like Ging risk their lives to save humanity ? Even Biscuit, knowing Gon and Killua are going to risk their lives and that her help would be very valuable, was willing to train the boys but not to do anything else.

The Ant arc is supposed to involve people who are far above the strongest guys we know at that point.

The only people far above the strongest guys we knew were Meruem and the Royal Guards. The Hunter Extermination Team (Gon and Killua excluded) were at the very top of the food chain, but not stronger than the already established stong people (Hisoka, Razor, the Phantom Troupe).

If the team assembled by the leader of the Hunter's needs to even think about whether his guys can take on members of the Spiders, then why does he think he can possibly fight someone who is basically a God (Meryem), or even his subordinates who Netero says are likely stronger than him?

If you have to deal with a threat, but you don't have anyone competent enough to deal with that threat, what do you do ? You do whatever you can with what you have. Morel, Knov, Knuckle and Shoot were the best guys available.

As a reminder, Nobunaga wanted to gather everyone together before pursuing Kurapika because he has a "Pro Hunter" friend, and no one called him chicken or anything. They clearly agree Kurapika + "Pro Hunter" = serious problem despite having 10 guys.

You didn't understand that situation. Nobunaga wasn't afraid of losing against some pro Hunters. He was afraid to chase them because if there was a fight, they wouldn't be able to deal with the Chain Guy + some pro Hunters and prevent the hostages from fleeing (remember, they were only 5 and two of them were hurt). That was the real problem : if they lose the hostages, then Chrollo is as good as dead. And Feitan did call Nobunaga chicken for it.

 

[The Invertroid]

I'm not going to try to contribute to the discussion here, because I could never hope to be as knowledgeable about Hunter x Hunter as you guys are. I'd just end up making a fool of myself.

I just wanted to say that I love how discussing character strengths in HxH requires so much detailed reasoning and use of logical textual evidence. If this was a Dragon Ball Z discussion, it would have descended into, "Well so-and-so has a power level of 10 Octillion, so he'd stand no chance against someone with a power level of 10 Centillion LOLZ" wrangling after the first post.

As much as I love Dragon Ball, I just really hate its fan obsession with power levels. With HxH we actually have to measure each character's separate attributes and abilities instead of relying on a bullshit linear measurement system. Come to think of it, even the Pokemon game have more depth when it comes to measuring opponents strength against each other than DBZ does.

Anyway, my rant is over. Sorry for getting off topic.

 

[zelllogan]

A nen user from the zoldyeck family (Kaluto) stated that he was nothing against the others & that he was still lacking. Aside from their obvious strength, their mindset & experience is important. We never saw a genei ryodan member losing his cool in battle. The don't even seem to fear death. Knuckle & shoot are lacking in those areas. For me, all member of genei ryodan are clearly stronger than those two.

Plus, former number 4 hisoka destroyed so easily an entire subgroup of influential hunters (Teradein Neutral, Bushidora Ambitious, ...). The same hisoka didn't risk himself to attack Kuroro because he was always "guarded" by two genei ryodan member. If two genei ryodan members are enough to make Hisoka cautious, it speaks volume about their strength.

With the current level of info we have, I would put "average" genei ryodan members at least in the "Morau" area. And I put top members above him.
And as a group, they still are by far the scariest organization in the manga. They complete each other. In my opinion, the three royal guards are not winning against the genei ryodan. They have a biggest "nen" reserve but the lack of experience would kill them.

And I really don't think there was anything in the manga proving that the old Netero was stronger than Kuroro or Hisoka. Those two are abnormal & their abilities are off the charts.

It's easy to underestimate genei ryodan due to Kurapika being able to deal with them. But honestly, kurapika abilities are cheated anyway. Plus, Ubogin didn't fight at his fullest. It was stated that Ubogin was really at his peak only when fighting alongside Nobunaga.

 

[ordoghaz]

i think, gon and killua at the time of the assault at the palace have grown significantly, that can go go toe to toe with most of the ryodan members... if they were good enough to survive being around royal guards, which pretty much paralysed knovu and palm just by pitou's aura alone, i dont think theyll have much trouble with most of the ryodan's especially the ones they know the abilities of.

at this point in time, even melereon said. killua had the potential of a division commander already... killua alone, on a stealth attack with kanmuru could probably kill most of the ryodan's with probably the exception of feitan, phinx and the kuroro. the others have shown complete vulnerability to him at the hotel. and he was way way weaker at the time. with very basic knowledge of nen.

uvogin might be different since all he is good for is head to head combat, so i dont know... it depends on the situation with killua, gon im sure will have a harder time with him. and maybe unless he tranforms to an adult gon. gon is pretty much generally speaking an inferior enhancer compared with uvogin at the time of uvogin's existence. even post Ant arc id say, but uvogin im sure wil have to be serious too.

to be honest, i am also of the opinion that most people here do not realise how much more deadly killua is now after the ant arc.
gon on the other hand is probably still agitatingly a slow starter but im sure all together he could give at least half of the ryodans a run for their money on head on combat, post ant arc.

---------- Post added at 06:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:52 AM ----------

A nen user from the zoldyeck family (Kaluto) stated that she was nothing against the others & that he was still lacking. Aside from their obvious strength, their mindset & experience is important. We never saw a genei ryodan member losing his cool in battle. The don't even seem to fear death. Knuckle & shoot are lacking in those areas. For me, all member of genei ryodan are clearly stronger than those two.


but the ryodans havent met the royal guards, nor meryem. so really u cant make a comparison. knuckle and shoot, obviously have something wrong with their mentalities thats why they had to get through that test with gon and killua but otherwise.



Plus, former number 4 hisoka destroyed so easily an entire subgroup of influential hunters (Teradein Neutral, Bushidora Ambitious, ...). The same hisoka didn't risk himself to attack Kuroro because he was always "guarded" by two genei ryodan member. If two genei ryodan members are enough to make Hisoka cautious, it speaks volume about their strength.


i dont think its the other 2 ryodans hisoka is cautious of, its the fact that kuroro may escape. and he knows he wouldnt get any other chance. i think its clear that dealing with another 2 ryodans in any fashion is enough for kuroro to either defeat hisoka or escape.



With the current level of info we have, I would put "average" genei ryodan members at least in the "Morau" area. And I put top members above him.
And as a group, they still are by far the scariest organization in the manga. They complete each other. In my opinion, the three royal guards are not winning against the genei ryodan. They have a biggest "nen" reserve but the lack of experience would kill them.


i have more respect for morau. so i wouldnt say he is past kuroro, but the rest would be either easy or very difficult, but he should be ok. i think kuroro has a big gap in terms of skills and nen abilities compared with the others. feitan seems exceptionally deadly but also frail. phinx seems more balanced but not as deadly.



And I really don't think there was anything in the manga proving that the old Netero was stronger than Kuroro or Hisoka. Those two are abnormal & their abilities are off the charts.


i think u are wrong. netero's techinques are far superior in combat than any other fighting techinques with nen that has been shown so far. the sheer speed at which he can conduct nen in his body as what zeno said. is frighteningly quiet. hisoka will be child's play with netero on a open direct combat. even kuroro probably, unless he runs away. no other nen uses aside from meryem that we know the abiities of, can deal with netero's hakyushi kannon? its a techinque that even meryem and pitou gets mesmerised at the speed. you should read the assault again at the palace again. maybe that should give you a clearer perspective.

thats what i think anyways.

 

[Demonspeed]

People are overestimating Killua too much because of Kanmuru. If he is that powerful it means Killua is the strongest human character in the manga. He just has to use his claws and his electricity, aim to the head and he would kill Netero, Ging, Hisoka etc. I say it again, Killua can't use Kanmuru freely when he is in a serious fight. Even with his fast reactions, there are still many ways to counter him. You can directly use your Ken to protect your body and the more you train the faster you are.Gon was still pretty fast even when Genthru hit him and Nen users more experienced than him are obviously even faster.

Unless he is REALLY dumb, a Nen user will have always aura covering his vital points. Even Uvo didn't rush on Kurapika with all the power of his Big Bang Impact. I don't know how fast he is but there are still people who can keep up with him, Tsubone for example. Even if Killua is so fast that he'll always be able to hit his opponent and that his opponent doesn't block, it won't be a fatal blow and he won't continue to kill his opponent in two hits because of the Ken and also because he is not stupid enough to waste his electricity. Killua has been able to speedblitz Yupi because Yupi didn't really knew of to use Nen( he didn't know Ken and stuff).

Do you think he would be able to speedblitz evolved Yupi like that? NO WAY! Pufu was still very even with divisions and the main advantage of Kanmuru is not the speed it's the reaction. He is fast but not the fastest but it's true that actually he has the fastest reactions in the manga.

Also, rushing against Enhancers or Emitters would be really stupid against a master of Nen. Nen is deep guys(Yupi), you seriously think Togashi would create a broken ability for a Main Character? If it's true his future fights will be pretty boring because he'll speedblitz any opponents. There is a reason why Killua didn't try to attack Illumi during his escape.

 

[Phantron]

There's a saying in the fictional martial arts world of "Speeds conquers all". If you have even a cursory understanding of the fictional martial arts genre, which HXH borrows heavily from (the concept of aura in both is nearly identical at least so far as direct fighting in concerned) you'll know an ability like Kanmaru is absolutely unbeatable.

It is NOT sufficient to defend against an attack with only Ken. Ubogin was injuried by a bite on his shoulder by a character nowhere in his class. Although the fight predates the concept of Ken, do you seriously think if that fight was to happen now, you'd instead have Ubogin use Ken and the guy just breaks his teeth? No the point is that there are parts of your body, if unguarded, you'll always take significant damage. Flesh + Ken is not enough to defend against anyone who is remotely within your league.

Kanmaru cannot be avoided, escaped, or even guarded. The last part is important. For example Machi guarded her head when she realized she can no longer avoid Killua's attack. This tells us that she cannot take a direct hit with just her head, but if it's covered by her hands that's more than enough. At the current state, there is no way anybody from the Spiders can possibly take a hit from Killua unguarded using aura alone. Ubogin cannot do this even against guys nowhere in his league. Kanmaru is so fast that Yupi didn't even have time to yell. Therefore, while something like say cover your head on like a turtle would be able to defend against it, you cannot use this kind of defensive manuever on time. If you started out crawled up in a fetal position, Killua will just hit you with his yoyo until you stop doing that. But the moment you left that position, you can no longer return to it to defend against Kanmaru, because Kanmaru by definition is too fast for you to have any kind of reaction against it.

In fact, if Killua is feeling particularly nasty, he can use the trademark move of the Hong Kong protagonist of poking out the enemy's eye. Again, you can't guard against any attack done in Kanmaru because he's too fast. Do you really think someone's eyelids + Ko is going to stop Killua from ripping their eyes out? And after he ripped your eyes out the fight is obviously over. In fact with this tactic he can single handedly annihilate the Spiders while fighting 1 on 13. It doesn't matter if you know exactly what he's going to do because nobody can catch up to him, and nobody can possibly block that kind of move with only aura alone. The only reason Killua didn't win against Royal Guards is that they're so strong that they probably can beat Killua's hand strength with just their eyeball, not to mention both Pufu and Yupi can form additional organs seemingly at will.

This is probably why Killua didn't actually fight anyone seriously after the Ant Arc, because most likely Togashi knows enough to realize how ridiculous his ability is and that there's absolutely any way he would lose to any human opponent.

---------- Post added at 08:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:07 PM ----------

One thing to note that is that very few Hunters have abilities exclusively geared to kill. Morel, for example, has pretty much only support abilities. In fact, out of the Hunter characters we have seen so far, outside of Netero, Gon and Killua may have the best abilities designed to damage/kill someone. This is because Hunters, in general, are supposed to be good guys and they're operating from a position of overwhelming strength. The Hunter's Association's supermacy is unchallenged (at least until the Election Arc made the organization look like a joke). No evil faction would dare to attack Hunters head on, so for the most part Hunters have abilities developed to suit whatever interest they have. Biscuit likes to look pretty, so that's how she has her ability. If she lived a life where her survival is constantly threatened, surely she'd have learned something else more suitable for combat.

The Spiders, with the exception of Hisoka (whose ability is not suitable for fighting but is bailed out by Togashi), tend to have abilities geared solely for fighting, at least the ones that are a credible fighting force. It's pretty clear the having powerful moves is the primary decider in combat. This is why powerful members of Hunter's Association like Morel or Biscuit still tries to avoid confrontation despite their overwhelming strength (Biscuit ran away from Palm), because they know that their inferior moves would put them at a disadvantage if there's a real fight to the death. A high ranking Hunter like Biscuit or Morel obviously can easily have more wealth, prestiege, or anything else they might want compared to anything a Spider can hope for, so why would they risk their life fighting someone with moves designed to kill? Contrast that with Spiders, where every member is considered expendable, including Kuroro. Obviously the Hunters will try to avoid confrontation with guys who have literally nothing to lose. It doesn't mean they'll lose. It's just when you live such a good life like Hunters, it'd be crazy to risk your life for no good reason.

 

[The Invertroid]

This is probably why Killua didn't actually fight anyone seriously after the Ant Arc, because most likely Togashi knows enough to realize how ridiculous his ability is and that there's absolutely any way he would lose to any human opponent.

And do you think Togashi will never have Killua fight another human for the rest of the series? I admit you have plenty of sound arguments from a logical point of view, but the fact of the matter is Killua can't be as powerful as you say he is, because the manga has at least a few arcs left to go, and having all of his fights become forgone conclusions would be boring. Obviously this means Togashi will have to find some way to balance Godspeed when Killua uses it in future situations.

The Spiders, with the exception of Hisoka (whose ability is not suitable for fighting but is bailed out by Togashi)

This is a perfect example of what I'm trying to say. In the end, it doesn't matter who would theoretically dominate a fight using their ability. The plot is the great equalizer. Since we have yet to see Kurapika's final showdown with the Phantom Troupe, and since that plot will likely take place near the end of the manga, the Phantom Troupe must be very powerful figures in the HxH universe because weaklings don't appear as major villains in the last few arcs of any manga/anime series that I've heard of. Even one as atypical as HxH.

 

[Phantron]

And do you think Togashi will never have Killua fight another human for the rest of the series? I admit you have plenty of sound arguments from a logical point of view, but the fact of the matter is Killua can't be as powerful as you say he is, because the manga has at least a few arcs left to go, and having all of his fights become forgone conclusions would be boring. Obviously this means Togashi will have to find some way to balance Godspeed when Killua uses it in future situations.

This is a perfect example of what I'm trying to say. In the end, it doesn't matter who would theoretically dominate a fight using their ability. The plot is the great equalizer. Since we have yet to see Kurapika's final showdown with the Phantom Troupe, and since that plot will likely take place near the end of the manga, the Phantom Troupe must be very powerful figures in the HxH universe because weaklings don't appear as major villains in the last few arcs of any manga/anime series that I've heard of. Even one as atypical as HxH.

Killua's more or less banished until Togashi can figure out what to do with him.

Most likely you'll see Killua return to fight things that aren't human on the Dark Continent. As is right now no human character can withstand Killua just poking out their eyeballs and then slowly slaughtering them.

The Spiders are very strong in terms of people who are not afraid to fight to the death, because people more powerful than they are generally afraid of fighting to the death. Biscuit chose to ran away from Palm even though the difference between the two is enormous. Zeno quickly gave up fighting Kuroro after learning there's no money for killing him. But in the grand scheme things, they're very weak. Netero can probably take out the entire organization by himself, and he said he's not even part of the top 5 anymore. The problem is that HXH is in a messy place because the good guys are overwhelmingly strong. I'm guessing you'd need something like most top Hunters wiped out by the events of the Dark Continent for the Spiders to become relevent. I assume originally Pariston was supposed to be responsible for something that severely undermines the power of the Hunter's Association, but now that he's left the Hunter's Association is once again the unopposed supreme power of the land (outside of national entities) and you can't have a meaningful conflict like that.

 

[Django]

The Spiders are not weak. The ship captain at the beginning said that even the most experienced Hunter can't touch them. That's the only proof we need, and there are many, many others (Uvogin defeating four Shadows Beasts by himself, Chrollo holding his own against Silva and Zeno, their strength being acknowledged by Razor, dispatching Zazan's squad without much trouble, and so on).

And the good guys are certainly not overwhelmingly strong. Most Hunters are nothing but fodder. What about the Nostrade Bodyguards ? They were considered competent enough to get hired by a powerful Mafia family, yet they were nothing against the Phantom Troupe. What about all the Greed Island players ? They were all Hunters or at least Nen users, yet most of them couldn't even go back to reality, and even the "good" players, like Asta, were not even able to defeat those lame pirates, and then Genthry killed them with ease. By the beginning of the Chimera Ant Arc, Gon and Killua are still pretty much weaklings if we compare them to people like Morel, Knov or Knuckle, yet they are still stronger than most Hunters. Even some members of the Zodiac, Netero's sparring partners, are weaker than Illumi and Hisoka (we know we can trust Hisoka when it comes to power levels).
And then there are all those Hunters who tried to catch Hisoka and Illumi during the Election Arc, and who got killed without any trouble (among them was a Single Star Hunter). Upon learning that, Teradein Neutral (a Double Star Hunter) says something like "Impossible ! Illumi must have at least ten strong people with him", to which Hisoka answers "Nope, just one". Which means that what is a "strong person" for an average Double Star Hunter is nothing compared to Hisoka. So no, Hunters in general are not strong.

 

[ordoghaz]

The Spiders are not weak. The ship captain at the beginning said that even the most experienced Hunter can't touch them. That's the only proof we need, and there are many, many others (Uvogin defeating four Shadows Beasts by himself, Chrollo holding his own against Silva and Zeno, their strength being acknowledged by Razor, dispatching Zazan's squad without much trouble, and so on).


no one is saying that the spiders are weak. but with the exception of kuroro, they arent that strong either. most stuff we know about the ryodan are experiences and perceptions of people significantly weaker than they are. and or when gon and killua were not even half of where they are now. kuroro is strong, but silva and zeno were there for a job you see. if they themselves were fighting say to avenge killua it would have been different as well. id say. Razor and the ryodan's strength if anything is a testament of how strong razor is. there were 5 of them, and none of them made a move. especially that we know how rude and imprudent they are, they didnt do anything to razor, when you see feitan one shotting pretty much anyone he comes across with. but there were plenty enough of them, yet they stayed still and listened to what he had to say. Zazan's batallion. come on. most of them are fodder, kullua could snap their necks in an instant like rammot i think if he wanted to.






And the good guys are certainly not overwhelmingly strong. Most Hunters are nothing but fodder. What about the Nostrade Bodyguards ? They were considered competent enough to get hired by a powerful Mafia family, yet they were nothing against the Phantom Troupe. What about all the Greed Island players ? They were all Hunters or at least Nen users, yet most of them couldn't even go back to reality, and even the "good" players, like Asta, were not even able to defeat those lame pirates, and then Genthry killed them with ease. By the beginning of the Chimera Ant Arc, Gon and Killua are still pretty much weaklings if we compare them to people like Morel, Knov or Knuckle, yet they are still stronger than most Hunters. Even some members of the Zodiac, Netero's sparring partners, are weaker than Illumi and Hisoka (we know we can trust Hisoka when it comes to power levels).
And then there are all those Hunters who tried to catch Hisoka and Illumi during the Election Arc, and who got killed without any trouble (among them was a Single Star Hunter). Upon learning that, Teradein Neutral (a Double Star Hunter) says something like "Impossible ! Illumi must have at least ten strong people with him", to which Hisoka answers "Nope, just one". Which means that what is a "strong person" for an average Double Star Hunter is nothing compared to Hisoka. So no, Hunters in general are not strong.

hisoka is full of himself. someone like castro puts him in trouble. yes most of hunters are fodder too. we all know that, ponzu and pokkle were good examples of that. gaining stars as hunter isnt about strength. and netero's sparring partners except maybe for botobai the sheep and tiger and the cow.. most of them were for his mental and psyochological games. pariston for one, has gone on to have 3 stars without pressumablly letting anyone knowing how strong he is in a fight. Ging has gotten 2 stars for discovering ruins not bec he is feared to be strong.


the spiders are strong but to put in them in certain categories like netero or zeno is wrong. the power levels dont follow a certain hierarchy. kuroro is plenty times more skilled and powerful than most of the spiders. same goes for netero and the hunters in general.

 

[Django]

no one is saying that the spiders are weak. but with the exception of kuroro, they arent that strong either. most stuff we know about the ryodan are experiences and perceptions of people significantly weaker than they are. and or when gon and killua were not even half of where they are now. kuroro is strong, but silva and zeno were there for a job you see. if they themselves were fighting say to avenge killua it would have been different as well. id say. Razor and the ryodan's strength if anything is a testament of how strong razor is. there were 5 of them, and none of them made a move. especially that we know how rude and imprudent they are, they didnt do anything to razor, when you see feitan one shotting pretty much anyone he comes across with. but there were plenty enough of them, yet they stayed still and listened to what he had to say. Zazan's batallion. come on. most of them are fodder, kullua could snap their necks in an instant like rammot i think if he wanted to.

Razor wasn't weaker than the Ryodan, yet he still said they were an impressive bunch. And the fact Silva and Zeno were fighting for a job doesn't change anything, Zeno was still willing to sacrifice himself to kill Chrollo, so they were obviously fighting at 100% (whereas Chrollo wasn't). And of course none of the Spiders made a move against Razor, you don't just rush against someone as powerful as Razor no matter how many guys you have with you, especially if you don't know what his abilities are. It doesn't mean they were afraid of him, or that they would have lost in a fight with him (they would have won, it was 5vs1) but they still had to be careful. And yes, Zazan's squad were fodder. Did the Ryodan have any difficulty dealing with them ? The only ones who were struggling were Shizuku (the weakest of them) and Feitan (who was fighting against a Squadron Leader, and was not even giving his best until the end). None of them seemed to consider it a very serious situation, they were joking around and casually commenting Feitan's fight.

hisoka is full of himself. someone like castro puts him in trouble. yes most of hunters are fodder too. we all know that, ponzu and pokkle were good examples of that. gaining stars as hunter isnt about strength. and netero's sparring partners except maybe for botobai the sheep and tiger and the cow.. most of them were for his mental and psyochological games. pariston for one, has gone on to have 3 tars without pressumablly letting anyone knowing how strong he is in a fight. Ging has gotten 2 stars for discovering ruins not bec he is feared to be strong.

When you say "someone like Kastro puts him in trouble" you seem to imply Kastro was a weakling. He was not. He was able to create a perfect double of himself using Conjuration (a category he can only master at 60% at most) AND control it perfectly using Manipulation (again, a category he can master at 60% at most) AND use extremely powerful Enhancement attacks. Hisoka sure is full of himself, but he has every reason to be. As for the Zodiacs, they wouldn't be Netero's sparring partners unless they were some of the very best fighters the organization has, we know Netero likes fighting strong people. If Hisoka is stronger than some of them (and we know we can trust Hisoka about power levels) then that means he is truly a monster.

the spiders are strong but to put in them in certain categories like netero or zeno is wrong. the power levels dont follow a certain hierarchy. kuroro is plenty times more skilled and powerful than most of the spiders. same goes for netero and the hunters in general.

Of course the Spiders are not at the level of Netero, being weaker than him is pretty much a given for everyone. And they're surely weaker than Zeno, too, but they're still extremely strong.

 

[Phantron]

hisoka is full of himself. someone like castro puts him in trouble. yes most of hunters are fodder too. we all know that, ponzu and pokkle were good examples of that. gaining stars as hunter isnt about strength. and netero's sparring partners except maybe for botobai the sheep and tiger and the cow.. most of them were for his mental and psyochological games. pariston for one, has gone on to have 3 stars without pressumablly letting anyone knowing how strong he is in a fight. Ging has gotten 2 stars for discovering ruins not bec he is feared to be strong.


the spiders are strong but to put in them in certain categories like netero or zeno is wrong. the power levels dont follow a certain hierarchy. kuroro is plenty times more skilled and powerful than most of the spiders. same goes for netero and the hunters in general.

In the case of Spiders, Kuroro is not exceptionally strong compared to rest. His physical strength is strictly in the middle of the arm wrestling chart, though given his base type (worst at physical strength) that means he's considerably above his class. Just as Shizuku and Pakunoda are considered more valuable than the typical fighting member of the Spider due to their special abilty, Kuroro is special not for his strength but for his exceptional leadership. If you look at the battle against Zanza, there's nothing stopping half of the Spiders from getting wiped out given half of their opponent simply stood there and watched the Spiders charge up their special move in the typical Shonen fashion, instead of just immediately attacking like they ought to in HXH. Further, there's no reason to take that risk as the Spiders are obviously capable of working together, but without Kuroro there is no one with the authority to say 'no more stupid 1on1s'. In the fight against Zanza, Phinx basically says if one guys dies the next guy will fight Zanza 1on1 and if that guy dies then the next guy steps up and so on. If Zanza was actually not completely stupid and just stood still and died against Feitan, she could've easily killed several Spiders one a time and possibly convert a few to her pets. And yet this is completely stupid since as a team there's no way the Spiders would lose to Zanza. If Kuroro was there, there was no way they'd have fought Zanza like that, and the only reason it worked was due to plot necessity. There's really no compelling reason to believe Feitan was going to be able to beat Zanza 1on1 at all, nor is that required as there are multiple Spiders present at the final fight.

In fact one of the real irony of the story is that Kuroro thinks of himself as expendable even though he is most definitely not, as we see the Spiders will fall apart without his leadership, which means he severely overestimates the leadership ability of everyone else. Thus far only Franklin appears even remotely capable of understanding the big picture.

I think the Election Arc really made the Hunter's Association look like a joke as you basically have Hunters dying in the middle of their headquarter without anyone doing anything about it. Perhaps the point is that the Hunters have gotten fat during decades of reign as the world's supreme power that its members forgot what it means to actually fight, except at the Election Arc we're immediately told that the Zodiac is now assigned to capture Beyond Netero, who has plenty of powerful followers and is backed by a major nation. So if the point is that Hunters have become grown fat and useless then it's going to be really hilarious to see a bunch of incompetents try to take on someone who is likely the strongest human in HXH (Netero is his prime is the strongest human in HXH, and Beyond sure looks like he's in his prime) with extremely powerful supporters and the resources of a major nation.

Pariston said in his speech that ultimately, a Hunter needs to be strong, and there's no reason to doubt the validity of that statement. It's almost certain that he's very strong in some way, even though it's possible he's not actually good at fighting. If Hunters aren't strong, how do they remain as the supreme organization of the world and counted on as defenders against events that can wipe out humanity? Now one of the common themes is that Hunters usually do not have exceptional fighting geared abilities as the result of their unchallenged supremacy. That is, when you've no one to fight there's no reason to develop abilities geared toward defeating your opponent. Biscuit is the best example of this, though even someone like Morel fits. As strong and resourceful as Morel is, his ability certainly isn't suited for combat. It seems like his ability is developed so that he can always have a smoke boat to travel around in his preferred domain (the sea). So the Hunters fighting ability are indeed somewhat weakened by years if not decades of unchallenged physical supremacy to the point that most of their members never developed abilities suitable for fighting. But then, this unchallenged supremacy didn't just get dropped on them from a pedestal. Obviously the Hunters, as an organization, must have earned this status by fighting at some point, and I don't think the point is that Netero was the one doing all the fighting while the rest of the Hunters grew fat.

Actually, Novu is a pretty good example of how Hunters are both extremely powerful and not at the same time. His ability is absolutely insane. It's kind of like Hisoka's bubble gum (he can seems capable of shaping it however he sees fit) except whatever he touches is just flat out gone for good, and of course he can teleport. His ability looks pretty much like instant kill against any human level opponents if it connects. Since Netero handpicked him as one of his support, we can easily assume his overall stats is incredibly high. Yet Novu is also very mentally fragile. He totally freaked out when he saw that the Ants are really much stronger than him to the point he just ran away. That said, would you really want to challenge a guy whose special move can basically instant kill you with no possibility defending against it? And we can be pretty sure Novu wouldn't be intimidated by another human character (no human can possibly possess the level of raw aura the Royals have). Even if you suspect Novu have some kind of mental block, if you're a bad guy there's really no reason for you to mess with one of the top Hunters whose ability is instant kill even if you think you have some kind of mental edge over him because the risk is just too great.

---------- Post added at 11:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:08 AM ----------

I notice people way overestimate Kuroro's ability based on the fight against Zeno and Silva. First off, Silva is definitely stronger than Zeno, as it'd make no sense to sacrifice the stronger guy to get the mission done. If you look at the fighting style Zeno was obviously the grunt doing all the fighting while Silva sits back waiting for the opportunity to make the kill. And even then Zeno said there was no way he'd lose in a fight that is not to the death against Kuroro. He said the result would be different in a fight to the death because he doesn't know what abilities Kuroro may have, so of course he can't say 'no way I'll lose' being the professional he is. This is why Kuroro didn't go all out either because he knows he's not going to be able to kill either of them anyway.

Now why was Zeno sacrificed to defeat Kuroro? Because the reputation of the family was on the line. It's clear at the start of this mission both Silva and Ilumi knew that a different family member is taking on a competing contract. Otherwise it'd make no sense for Silva to just stop his attack the moment his pager rang as that'd be downright crazy. They obviously had an agreement that if they called each other that means the other mission is off because the guy who was going to pay for the other mission is dead. Now, the reputation of their family is hugely important. Zeno and Silva can't just take it easy and slow because if anyone found out about this, they'd say that Zeno and Silva chickened out of their contract by pretending to put on a show to avoid fighting Kuroro. This is why despite Silva always preaching about waiting for the best opportunity to kill, he was getting worried there. Not because he was losing his patience but because he knows about the competing contract from Ilumi. And since they have no time to figure out a safe plan to defeat Kuroro, that's why Zeno had to risk his life. If they were not operating under such a tight time constrain, they'd have plenty of time to figure out a safe way to kill Kuroro. In fact, why do you think Kuroro just happened to hire Ilumi? He doesn't have any special grudge against the Mafia, nor are they someone he'd require special assistance to defeat. He did that because he was short on time as he knows killing the guy who hired the Zs is the only way to get the Zs off your back, and he didn't have time to track down the Mafia leaders himself and he knows he needs to get the Zs off his back, fast.

 

[ordoghaz]

God. How can you write so much. With all the same arguments over and over again.

Anyways, obviously I didn't mean physical strength for kuroro. And he is way stronger and dangerous probably is the better word, compares with the other ryodans.

It will be close between silva and kuroro I believe. The former failed already before.

Leadership wise. I don't know. It's more of he is the only one they respect and has an absolute superiority over the others minus physical strength
Maybe.

 

[Phantron]

Silva never failed to kill Kuroro. He had a contract to kill a particular member of the Spiders but it was definitely not Kuroro or the whole thing about his family's reputation would be a joke if the current head of the family failed an assassination attempt. The only loophole when it comes to the Zs is that you can kill whoever contracted them and then they'll quit because the Zs don't work for free. The whole notion Kuroro can fight off either of them is ridiculous or he would not have called Ilumi to get Silva/Zeno off his back via the loophole.

The most powerful characters in HXH tend to be very humble. The Zs are especially conservative. As Zeno explained, his kills because it's his job, not because he enjoys it. He doens't want to work for free or die pointlessly. Someone like Zeno or Silva will always think extremely highly of their opponent because outside of family reputation, their most important goal is still survival. I keep on see people mistaken guys who are fearless as if they're stronger. As Killua puts it, just because you've 1% chance of winning doesn't mean these are the kind of odds you want. Now similar to most Shonen usually 1% is more than enough odds for you to risk your life on, which is why the fearless guys usually look like they're right, but that's just plot immunity backing them up. In theory 99 out of 100 times you're supposed to just die horribly if you challenge someone you only have 1% chance of winning. Just because the odds never work out that way due to plot immunity doesn't make the act of fighting a 1% chance to win battle wise. That is why Kuroro was only stalling for time the entire time because he knew about the loophole and he also knew how stupid it'd be to actually fight Silva and Zeno for real, as the chance of him winning is extremely slim. He held back because there's really no point even if he was able to kill say Zeno if that results him getting killed by Silva. Going on the offense only decreases the time he can stall, and while Kuroro is not afraid of death, trading his life for Zeno does absolutely nothing positive for the Spiders so there's no point for him to risk his life either.

 

[Leonsagara]

Silva and Zeno were also being cautious because Silva knew that Kuroro had a stealing ability, but they weren't sure of how it worked. They wanted to keep the pressure on and finish it quickly so he couldn't activate the conditions, hence the sacrifice strategy. Kuroro was partially holding back because he was hoping for the chance to steal in addition to stalling for time.

 

[Phantron]

Silva and Zeno were also being cautious because Silva knew that Kuroro had a stealing ability, but they weren't sure of how it worked. They wanted to keep the pressure on and finish it quickly so he couldn't activate the conditions, hence the sacrifice strategy. Kuroro was partially holding back because he was hoping for the chance to steal in addition to stalling for time.

Let's say Kuroro activated his awesome killing ability and killed Zeno. Since Silva was on the side watching the whole time, presumably Silva takes this opportunity and then kill him since it's a universal theme that strong offensive powers invariably leaves you vulnerable. So Kuroro died while taking Zeno with him. But what's the point? He knows Silva and Zeno are just professionals doing a job, so it's not like these guys have any fundamental ideology conflict with him. Kuroro is not afraid of dying, but how does killing Zeno or even Silva gains anything for the Spiders? Kuroro is willing to sacrifice himself to defeat Kurapika, because he knows there's no way they can coexist. There's no such motivation here.

Silva and Zeno weren't afraid of Kuroro's stealing ability because they know it'd be too hard to activate an ability so powerful as stealing. What they're afraid of is whatever abilities Kuroro may have already stolen. There's obviously no way they can plan for whatever ability Kuroro may actually have, and since they're professionals they decided sacrificing one guy (Zeno) was the surest way to win. They can't really continue fighting safe because they know they're competing against Ilumi, and more Spiders might arrive to help anyway. If they try to wear Kuroro down with just basic moves it'd take hours.